Give me some advice part 2

[Guest guest]

Let me give you some more info I have done extensive research into 501©(3)

non profits and one of my confirmed board members used to write grants for

Easter seals.One of my prospective board members used tyo be a director of one.I

am not looking for advice about the running and funding but about the program

itself.

The plan is to get used pc's or throw aways and rebuild and resell them.I

will not be the only one training them and as far as credentials all I have to

do is show them the robotic parts on the saw I work on and all the pc's here at

work I am admin on.I don't feel that will be an issue.

Not only will this train folks but will also re purpose pc's instead of

recycling them into raw components which will be better on the environment.

what I am looking for is ;

1)is this a program that could help without demeaning

2)what other related training could be done to help the AS community

3)what should I be on guard about

The only reason I am working on the 501©(3) angle is for corporate tax

deductions for giving us their used pc's instead of paying for a recycler to

haul them away.

The best piece of advice I recieved from a phsych is to be me and that when I

help others I also help myself.

I already run a drum circle that has been quite successful now I want to help

others like me to enjoy their lives more.

Thanks for the the tips keep them comming

yours

Chris

[Guest guest]

-- In FAMSecretSociety , "christopherandbarb" wrote:

"The plan is to get used pc's or throw aways and rebuild and resell them."

There are a lot of businesses and charities that do this, and for the most part, I do not people regard such re-builds favorably. They are like refurbished copiers. The customer spends a portion of the cost of a new computer, and what they get in return is an obsolete piece of equipment which is slow to use, high maintenance, and breaks down often.

In this day and age, a person can get an e-machine for $500.00.

If you are giving the computers away for free, then that is another story. The thing is, who are you going to get to fix all of these computers up and are they going to volunteer, or are you going to pay them. And where will the money come from?

"I will not be the only one training them and as far as credentials all I have to do is show them the robotic parts on the saw I work on and all the pc's here at work I am admin on. I don't feel that will be an issue."

You need to consider things from the point of view of those who are going to come in there and ask for the training. If all they want is an industrial tour, they do not need you. Chances are what they are looking for is the equivalent of a college course or courses, but without the expense. If you can offer them that, or find someone to offer that, terrific, but I don't think you are going to find a really skilled professional to help you out when that same professional can do the same thing and get paid for it at the local community college.

Nevertheless, let us assume that you have all of this worked out somehow...

"Not only will this train folks but will also re purpose pc's instead of recycling them into raw components which will be better on the environment."

I live near Chicago, and there is a warehouse over here which does the same thing. Most of the computers wind up getting recycled. Few actually get refurbished. You just dump your computer off and you are shut of it.

I am sure that you can find people who will be happy to dump their computers. They will be happy to give to a charitable cause. I doubt you will be able to do anything more with them than recycle them though.

"what I am looking for is ;

"1)is this a program that could help without demeaning?"

Of course. If you are putting people to work, it's not demeaning.

"2)what other related training could be done to help the AS community?"

I think what AS people need in the first place is to get motivated. There are plenty of petitions out there for them to sign to make life better for themselves, but it's like pulling teeth to ghet them to do it.

In various ways, I have spent four years trying to motivate the AS community to act on its own behalf to promote a positive image of Asperger Syndrome, and for the most part, it is NTs who take the lead and do the work. The Aspies are pretty apathetic.

I have not met many in the work place, but of those who do, it seems that their primary difficulty is social involvement, something that no training program, including ABA and social skills training has helped them overcome.

I suppose life skills training would be advantageous to Aspies. Other than that, I cannot think what.

"3)what should I be on guard about?"

That if you hire a bunch of Aspies to do the work, they will bail on you when they see that work is required.

If you take alook at this forum, you see folks like and Gail and Raven and Strict and I busting our rear ends at various tasks and jobs, but you see others just whining that they are mistreated.

They are mistreated at work, or at school, or at home, and all they want is to be catered to.

It does not seem to me that Aspies really want to step out of themselves and earn a living for themselves or advocate for themselves unless they can do it with a minimal amount of effort.

I truly believe that what you will discover is that your charitable cause will become a failing concern because the Aspies that involve themselves in it will turn apathetic after a while.

The only other things you have to worry about is that you are in compliance with local, state, and federal tax regulations; And also, since you are going to be ripping apart computers with toxic components, you need to make sure that all health and environmental reulations are adhered to, and that all OSHA requirements are met.

"The only reason I am working on the 501©(3) angle is for corporate tax deductions for giving us their used pc's instead of paying for a recycler to haul them away."

Yes. My old employer gave away their used PCs to such a charity. You need to understand, however, that there is little advantage to giving them to a charity verses giving them to a recycler. In terms of bookkeeping, all office equipment is depreciated, so the actual value of any PCs that are given away or thrown away ought to be ZERO when they are gotten rid of. Thus whether they give them to a charity or a recycler is a non-issue.

In fact, they don't care who they give it to as long as it is easy to get rid of the equipment. And frankly, their customers and clients don't care whether the equipment has been recycled or thrown in the garbage either. Chances are their customers throw their stuff out too.

"The best piece of advice I recieved from a psych is to be me and that when I help others I also help myself."

My psych told me the same thing. It's both a solid truth and strong lie. I feel good when I do for others, but you need to realize that if you expect to profit in any way that is more than emotional uplift, then you are probably in for a strong disappointment. You certainly CAN gain financially from charitable ventures, but it is not assured.

"I already run a drum circle that has been quite successful now I want to help others like me to enjoy their lives more.

"Thanks for the the tips keep them comming."

I must say that despite my skepticism about this venture, I am pleased that you are making the effort. You are doing more than most Aspies. So I wish you the best of luck.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

What you need to be on guard about:

1. There already are places that recycle used computers and resell them for a

profit (presumably). You'll have very stiff competition there.

2. You won't want to hear this, I suspect, but the training you have in mind

(if that's all there is into it) doesn't have all that much commercial

employability: I believe your overall goal is to train people to be more

employable with a valuable skill and certification, right? Recycling old used

PCs will help people become better targeted for Best Buy's Geek Squad (or was

that Circuit City?) which doesn't pay all that much, really.

3. There's a very good reason generic recyclers tend to focus just on

recycling: they have to also be responsible for proper recycling of materials

that qualify as hazardous waste, which costs money to deal with legally. I

don't know where you live, but around here, even going to places that specialize

in recycling it costs money, and I'm guessing they've got some kind of contract

with larger recyclers that send off the old hardware to probably China to be

separated out/stored/whatever in the most amazingly polluted conditions outside

possible. I'll take a guess that you're interested in such details, and if so,

I can't remember which network investigative news show covered this (20/20,

etc.) but this could be very expensive to setup.

4. It will probably be very difficult to get the necessary volume of

used/recycled PC components and computer resale. I've had plenty of PCs and

stuff, some of which I got at a silent auction at a former employer, and you

know what? There's little/no market for it, as even a reasonably new PC has no

significant resale value after you've taken it home, even if it is < months

old. I've been in the field longer than your time, working with hardware and

software, and I can tell you probably all you'd want to know about ESDI drives,

for example, though that doesn't exactly help me now. There's lots of other

technologies I can tell you about, too, that don't have any new parts made for

them, and you can't service (service=replace with whole new replacements: any

commercials promising careers in the exciting future of computer repairs is a

scam these days, as " computer repair " consists almost entirely of swapping out

whole motherboards and cards, and that's been the case for longer than you've

worked in the field for any computers you'll see recycled). If you're picking

up these machines from companies, depending on whom you get them from, they may

very well be incredibly ancient, with lots of truly dead stuff, and you'll have

to send off a huge portion of it. This will also be space-intensive for the

workspace and storage space for all these people and computers, so I ask you

now: have you figured out how much space you need for training, workspace and

storage space, as well as presumably a store, and what zoning you can locate

that store in, and what the going leasing rates and durations are?

5. Computer building/repairing, when it comes to the more detailed

assembly/disassembly, tends to require a combination of patience and

coordination at a minimum, and is often a very effective recipe towards getting

impaled on small pins and sharp edges from computer cases: a lot of us on the

spectrum don't have all that great of coordination, though that may not be the

case for all, granted. Even though I spent 4 years that amongst other things

included me working on maintaining hardware and software configurations in a CD

production plant's CD-ROM premastering department, and I've built several

computers myself, either from new parts, old parts, or some combination, even

though I've got the proper educational background that I can tell you first in

generalities and then, if you wish, describe the finer details about what

particular chips do and how they do it at a low level, it doesn't change the

fact that I've still managed to be just clumsy enough to fry motherboards in

their most vulnerable state, when they've not yet been fully hooked up to power

and grounding, and possibly still not fully attached to the case with proper

supports so you don't crack the internal traces from flexing things just a

*little* bit too much.

6. Have you checked out the local region to see how many other places in the

area already deal with recycled PCs? Even though you're intending on having a

non-profit, you still need to be able to be competitive in the market, and there

will be overhead expenses for promotion, etc. you need to incorporate into the

cost structure accounting.

It doesn't even matter that this is supposed to be a nonprofit: you still need

to be able to survive off of it, possibly have the people you wish to train get

a sufficient wage out of the training time/experience, lest they see this as a

sweat shop or the like, and you need to not be here today, gone tomorrow, but

still stuck with an expensive lease to deal with. Here is what I'd suggest: if

you cannot come up with enough initial funding to lease a target building for 1

year in cash (whatever the sources) and at least have enough to survive on for

your expenses otherwise, you have an incredibly unlikely scenario for success in

just remaining solvent, with or without achieving the goal of training others in

the process. If this is the only training you have in mind, I'm here to tell

you that it has rather low commercial value, and is rather specialized for a

skill set, based on maintaining stuff that is the fastest changing technology

around, though if you have a deeper education (beyond merely a part-swapper)

there are many things that haven't changed much over time. If you can't provide

long-term assurances of existing, the value offered is very little: presumably,

people will use working for this non-profit as a reference/employer listing on

their re´sume´s when looking for work, but if they haven't been heard of, and

they're already gone, it won't provide much valuable credibility: you've got a

true chicken/egg paradox here in the practical sense, in that if you don't

establish yourself quickly, you'll likely not get the people you need for being

able to train them, but if you're not already established, you'll likely not

attract the people you need to get established.

It is very important to remember this: non-profit or not, all non-individual

entities that involve the budgeting of money and time are businesses, and need

to be accounted in the same way, and expenses and budgets need to be figured out

and paid/provided for. Before you attempt to go into a business (non-profit or

not) you are foolish to the extreme if you don't do sufficient and proper market

research into everything involved: solving a problem is great in theory, but

solving the wrong problem and expecting people to make things work for you is a

disaster before you ever get started. You either need to provide something that

nobody else that's around you is a direct competitor, and/or you need to do that

thing noticeably better somehow, which requires a fair amount of money to get

started.

Towards that end, before you even commit to any financial arrangements like

leasing buildings or actually collecting used hardware, you need to secure

donations sufficient for at least the shortest term of the prospective lease of

a building/office big enough, as well as the amount of money you and however

many others you need to support can survive off of. I'd suggest that when doing

so, you have a provision that if you can't reach a sustainable amount with a set

time period to get started (and do this without having quit your regular

employment, if possible, though that will complicate things) that all that

funding goes to some particular non-profit organization, and I'd go so far as to

suggest that the people donating that get to choose their charity, so as to make

it more palatable: even if it doesn't get used for the first choice purpose

(presumably your non-profit) it still retains the tax exemption status, as well

as going towards something they approve of. You need to provide hard deadlines

for all of these things, so they can be verified: by far, one of the most

important things that businesses demand out of things is predictability and

being able to plan things around schedules, including for accounting purposes.

That, right there, is going to be one of your biggest hurdles: when trying to

get a lease for a building/office to do all this in, you had better be able to

demonstrate to them that you have the money to not suddenly go out with a puff

of smoke somewhere in the middle of it: with the way things are in this economic

climate, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they insisted on a rather hefty

upfront payment, being several months rent, or even possibly the whole term,

paid up. Even a for-profit business has a high risk, especially when new, even

with a great business plan and the best appearing product in the world: new

non-profits are an even greater risk for getting bills paid. I do believe

you'll need a good business plan to show anyone where you intend to lease: like

I mentioned earlier about having some kind of degree, any kind of degree, it may

very well be a requirement for getting things started, because if nothing else,

a well-written business plan demonstrates you've done your market research, have

plans as to what you expect things to be at points in time, and can measure

against something. If you've not done a business plan, there's all sorts of

things that'll likely have been overlooked, but you won't be very aware of them

right off, and with a business plan, someone else with sufficient experience

will be able to decipher if those things have been left off, or properly

accounted for with best guesses. If you try to start this on nothing but a

dream, and without a plan, there's a very high chance it will remain nothing but

a dream, and will be as measurable as a dream: a cup full of cumulus, impossible

to grab and measure accurately, and gone with the wind.

A great idea without proper planning and execution is just nice fantasy. Cover

all the bases, and make this a reality show with perpetual renewals.

>

> Let me give you some more info I have done extensive research into 501©(3)

non profits and one of my confirmed board members used to write grants for

Easter seals.One of my prospective board members used tyo be a director of one.I

am not looking for advice about the running and funding but about the program

itself.

> The plan is to get used pc's or throw aways and rebuild and resell them.I

will not be the only one training them and as far as credentials all I have to

do is show them the robotic parts on the saw I work on and all the pc's here at

work I am admin on.I don't feel that will be an issue.

> Not only will this train folks but will also re purpose pc's instead of

recycling them into raw components which will be better on the environment.

> what I am looking for is ;

> 1)is this a program that could help without demeaning

> 2)what other related training could be done to help the AS community

> 3)what should I be on guard about

> The only reason I am working on the 501©(3) angle is for corporate tax

deductions for giving us their used pc's instead of paying for a recycler to

haul them away.

> The best piece of advice I recieved from a phsych is to be me and that when I

help others I also help myself.

> I already run a drum circle that has been quite successful now I want to

help others like me to enjoy their lives more.

> Thanks for the the tips keep them comming

> yours

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

" Thanks for the the tips keep them comming "

One other " tip. "

I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the

drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has

been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with.

Consider how many machines you stand to sell at all.

A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to load

on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you would

have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet competitive

with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same thing. And on

top of that your client has to pay for software.

So your machine is not going to be too cheap.

Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to breaking

down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this antique, when for

the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can get a brand

new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, and with the

newest software already installed?

From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a personal

perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child to have to

play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM typewriter to

mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

lot's of downsides well that's why I did not just jump into it.I will talk to

the folks that wanted to be on the board and let them know.

I was not aware the AS community was that way I guess I assumed wrong.I have

always been one to stick things out and to try to do the right thing.

I may start looking into scholarships and just redirect my life meanwhile I

will stick with the drumcircle I run and that can be the good thing I do for

others.

Thanks for the advice

Chris

[Guest guest]

That's a point I forgot to mention, that I realized after I posted the last post

of mine, Tom, and that's a great one.

There's more than one issue with leaving pre-existing software on it:

1. If left there, you can't be sure of its provenance, even if the PC *does*

have some Windows (or whatever) license sticker on it, as it may not match that

installed software.

2. Even if you had a good faith expectation that the software was all properly

licensed to go with the machine, how do you know that the machine isn't infected

with some sort of malware?

3. Even if the first two requirements are satisfied, do you actually have the

passwords or the ability to reset things to a default?

4. Assuming the first 3 items, how much assurance do you have that the OS isn't

a bad installation with faulty drivers that don't work well or at all?

5. Who do you go for, for tech support for setting things up initially? Sure,

you might be able to do it in that shop, but sooner or later, the buyers (if you

find them) are going to need some sort of technical support, if they don't

already have the experience to do it themselves.

6. If the users already have the experience to not need your technical support

after they've bought it, I find myself wondering: who are you going to find that

will actually buy the hardware, since if they have that level of knowledge, far

too often they can scrounge old hardware from friends and family that have it

lying around, underutilized, because they're upgrading to something faster, more

modern, more reliable, and (you can't overestimate the importance of this for

both individuals and businesses) stuff that has a viable warranty still in

effect. Those that have the knowledge and experience to be proficient in all

this, if they're not doing it purely for the sake of being machine collectors

because they like old stuff for some reason (I know a couple friends online that

do this, but one of them still lives at home with his parents, and I don't think

he's paying rent or the electric bill). Older systems also tend to require more

electrical power than the newer ones for the equivalent computational power. A

lot of systems that people will get rid of are the long era of the P4-based

machines, which double as inefficient room heaters. Going Green is one nice

theory, but no P4-based machine counts when you do the math.

7. If machines don't have their hard drives fully cleaned off of all data (not

merely using the recycle bin, but low-level reformatting, preferably extensive

wiping for security purposes) there's all sorts of potentially sensitive

information on them that can open up all sorts of liability issues for both the

people giving them to you, and potentially you as well. All of this is very

labor-intensive, of course! What is your time worth?

If you don't have the cash *now* before attempting to do this full-time to make

all your bills (both for running the non-profit and your family's finances) you

don't stand a remotely realistic chance: getting revenue in is so unpredictable,

and takes far more time than you'd imagine to get started, as does getting all

the paperwork and legalities taken care of, etc. and I speak of this from

first-hand experience, as well as doing business with someone that's gone a much

longer time than desired to soon make a profit on a business venture with him

being 1 of 3 partners: he's been in the partnership for about 14 months now, and

has been living off of whatever he can, but not income from the business as of

yet. There's all kinds of startup overhead they've run into, negotiating

contracts with supplier and buyers, checks in the mail (HA! You'd think people

would use electronic funds transfers these days, but, believe it or not, there's

still a lot of people and businesses that don't come near that! Guess what THAT

does for predictability? Now you have 4 problems:

1. There's a human guaranteed to be in the loop for processing invoices, and

they make a very effective central single point of failure (this has happened)

2. There's the issue of it making it to the mailbox as stated time-wise (this

has also happened)

3. There's the unpredictability of the mail taking longer than you'd expect (<

20 miles away, several days by mail: this is still in progress)

4. There's the unpredictability of the check clearing the bank: this, for my

example, still represents an unknown, but I have a clue to the size of the

check, and I expect that'll be a killer, unless he gets extremely lucky. You

see, rarely does a company make out cashier's checks, as they're too

labor/time-intensive for them to bother with...

)

So, ask yourself: do you have ALL of these things already covered? Have you run

the numbers of what it costs to dispose of/recycle old computer hardware that

you can't sell? Have you gotten firm estimates as to the cost of buildings to

do this in, keeping in mind, you're dealing with what are classified as

hazardous/toxic materials, and you will absolutely have to deal with paperwork

for your state/local governments to track that all (I had to wade through the

paperwork for my business I formed and fill out such stuff). If all of this

isn't covered, you're nowhere near ready to file paperwork and start with the

expenses. After all, this is the worst credit market since the Great

Depression, so unless you've got the ideal credit report now, and a credit line

now, you had better get cash funds in the bank before you go any farther down

your path, otherwise, the chances of failure approach 100% in less than a few

months.

>

> " Thanks for the the tips keep them comming "

>

> One other " tip. "

>

> I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the

drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has

been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

>

> If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with.

>

> Consider how many machines you stand to sell at all.

>

> A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to

load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you

would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet

competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same

thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

>

> So your machine is not going to be too cheap.

>

> Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to

breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this antique,

when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can get

a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, and

with the newest software already installed?

>

> From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a

personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child

to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM

typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid.

>

>

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Let me give you some more info I have done extensive research into

501©(3) non profits and one of my confirmed board members ... <snip> .. The

only reason I am working on the 501©(3) angle is for corporate tax deductions

for giving us their used pc's .. <snip> ... I already run a drum circle that has

been quite successful now I want to help others like me ... <snip> ... "

I was going to offer more solid business suggestions until I read this post from

you, Chris. I am sorry to say that you sound opportunistic in a very negative

sense and your business model is unsound at best.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Excellent post strict!

Raven

[Guest guest]

strict wrote: " ... <snip> ... 6. If the users already have the experience to

not need your technical support after they've bought it, I find myself

wondering: who are you going to find that will actually buy the hardware, since

if they have that level of knowledge, far too often they can scrounge old

hardware from friends and family that have it lying around, underutilized,

because they're upgrading to something faster, more modern, more reliable, and

(you can't overestimate the importance of this for both individuals and

businesses) stuff that has a viable warranty still in effect ... <snip> ... "

Case in point. Most young teenagers are now able to build computers from

obsolete parts that are capable of going online. What's more, most of those

young teens also know quite a bit about Open Source Code and such.

My own 13-year-old built a computer from scratch from obsolete parts and not

only was it functional, it was able to go online with good connectivity (which

surprised all of us here considering the age of the parts).

Many people who do not have the ability to built their own computers have

children (biological or other) who can do this for them at next to no cost or at

no cost to them.

Raven

[Guest guest]

There are programs like this available and they are not demeaning at all. When the World Autism Congress held a conference in Melbourne, I asked an organization like this to lend us computers for the Autistic Retreat room and for use for an online section of the conference. They let me use their comps, taught me the basics of Linux and showed me how to network the comps and maintain the network. Amazing ppl. I also know of some people who got traineeships in commercial enterprises after doing volunteer work and courses at this place.

http://www.computerbank.org.au/

I met a lot of people there who depended on their involvement with the organization for self worth, employment and social interactions amd some of these people were autistic. This kind of program can be a lifesaver. I can't advise you on setting up because I only know the situation in my country where people who run a setup like this have to get a trainers' qualification or their trainees do not get accreditation for the work they have done. They are also not eligible to access study allowance or "work for the dole" allowances if they are not doing an accredited coiurse amd they can't access unemployment benefits if they are not actively looking for work full time but hopefully it is different in your country.

I know they have similar organizations in USA, Britain and Canada, so perhaps if you can find one close to home, they can advise you. Also, I got advice from a psych who said that the best way to help yourself is to help others and this has proved to be correct so I hope you have success.

Give me some advice part 2

Let me give you some more info I have done extensive research into 501©(3) non profits and one of my confirmed board members used to write grants for Easter seals.One of my prospective board members used tyo be a director of one.I am not looking for advice about the running and funding but about the program itself.

The plan is to get used pc's or throw aways and rebuild and resell them.I will not be the only one training them and as far as credentials all I have to do is show them the robotic parts on the saw I work on and all the pc's here at work I am admin on.I don't feel that will be an issue.

Not only will this train folks but will also re purpose pc's instead of recycling them into raw components which will be better on the environment.

what I am looking for is ;

1)is this a program that could help without demeaning

2)what other related training could be done to help the AS community 3)what should I be on guard about The only reason I am working on the 501©(3) angle is for corporate tax deductions for giving us their used pc's instead of paying for a recycler to haul them away.

The best piece of advice I recieved from a phsych is to be me and that when I help others I also help myself.

I already run a drum circle that has been quite successful now I want to help others like me to enjoy their lives more.

Thanks for the the tips keep them comming

yours

Chris

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Yup, now there's a real winner of a solution! Why didn't I think of that???

Oh, wait: that's because I know exactly what I'm talking about, as I have made

my living in the field, doing things from doing exactly what he's talking about

as part of my job, part of my hobby, but not to teach others, and yes, I've

developed software, professionally, for longer than he's been in the field, and

started programming and had been doing so at some level for longer than he's

been in the field before I did it professionally. Sooner or later, I'll have to

submit my past education/experience to get my official Geek Certification.

But, on to the topic at hand: your flippant answer just shows a lack of thought

about the whole thing from the typical end-user's perspective, since once you

use all open source software (a laudable goal in the minds of many) you've

opened up yet another large can of worms. Why? The only people that won't

require some sort of tech support/hand-holding after the sale will be those that

will already assemble their own computers and install open source software (or

anything else, legally or otherwise) and the only ones that might find it

worthwhile (at least, for the majority of the cases) will be rather clueless

about at least doing anything with the OS when all they've had past experience

with is Windows, or perhaps Mac OS X, or the Mac OS before OS X. I act as tech

support for quite a few family members and friends, and I can assure you this:

if something new needs to be done to their system for installing hardware and

software, how it is done on either Windows of any variant or Mac OS X is more

than complicated enough as it is for them, even when things go smoothly. Why?

Most mere mortals that aren't the ubergeeks don't ever want to be bothered to

learn anything more than they absolutely need, and perhaps, if they work with

computers at work, the majority at this time run some mutation of Windows, so

they prefer to go with the devil they know. Not only that, but they'll want to

work with any data files that other Windows users also work with, and if you try

to tell me that Open Office, for example, is equivalent to Microsoft Office,

well, I'll likely call you a bunch of not-nice things because you clearly have

no clue, and what's more, I can prove it to you unambiguously, because I've used

Microsoft Office features that the majority of users don't even know exist, and

even if they do know it exists, they don't know how to do it themselves, but,

guess what? There's a good chance that they'll encounter documents with macros

and such that DO use those features, that are part of office workflow solutions,

however hacked they may be. Now, to convert those more interesting documents

over to Open Office (or even any other office suite, for that matter) is not a

guaranteed success for formatting issues, assuming the documents don't use the

more Microsoft Office-specific things. And that's just talking about Microsoft

Office compared to other office suites.

Next, let's not even get into the gory details of an odd hardware configuration

where you attempt to get the latest and greatest version of the OS and all the

OS updates and user space libraries. If people complain about Windows DLL Hell

(not nearly as bad as it used to be, especially in more recent versions of

Windows that make that more manageable) they haven't seen anything yet compared

to the nightmare of having to properly setup a truly working system under Linux

without all the dependencies being an endless cycle of attempted updates and

things to get a whole, working system that does all you want. If you get a base

distribution that has exactly what you want already installed as-is, and you

never have a need or desire to install anything else, you *might* be fine, and

not run into that - at least, until there's a security patch update or some

other kernel fix or user space library fix, which may very well use more stuff

you need to find and download and install, and hope it doesn't pull in more fun

dependencies that say they need more dependencies, etc. until you go nuts, and

find that the new things that are needed conflict with what's already installed,

and it won't work, but you don't decipher that (assuming you have the technical

understanding to realize what's going on: those people with that background

won't be buying these computers, they'll be assembling them on their own from

other's parts they get for free, as I mentioned previously) until it is much too

late. Oh, and often, because of the binary changes in the kernel API, old

drivers won't always work on newer kernels, and by definition, all donated

computers will be rather old, meaning the most appropriate OS to install on it

is one from the same era, unless you really want to find and possibly port the

old drivers to the new kernel API, and pray that they all play nicely together,

but then you have the issue of security updates and kernel bug fixes, etc. and

you go round and round again, and where you stop, nobody knows. Ok, so go with

OpenBSD, or FreeBSD, or another OSS OS.... ah, but then there's also a very high

chance they don't have all the hardware driver support of Linux or Windows,

either Oh, and if any end-user technical support is provided, or even asked

for: how many different OS revisions do you now have to be able to decipher and

support? Sure, it'll be great experience, in theory, to do all this, but pretty

soon word will get around: all that's sold is junk that can't be properly and

sanely supported. I can tell you this much: social interactions will be much

more interesting, and a great lesson, too, assuming those that act as support

personnel are up to the task: not everyone is well-suited to being such a tech

support person, and a potentially valuable thing that could be learned from this

overly complicated exercise in frustration of a business model for those that

attempt to undergo the training is at least they find one more thing that

they're either good at, or suck so badly at and hate so much that they'll

(hopefully!) abort before going on too long. Not everyone has patience and the

desire to stick through getting a system working through all the nightmares that

pop up, even if they DO truly know what they're doing: but people that are

supposedly learning in this experience, by definition, will not already be very

comfortable with this whole thing.

No, I'm not an OS bigot or zealot: I have developed for many different operating

systems, installed many different operating systems (I have quite a few

installed on my several computers right now, every single one of my computers

can multi-boot into distinctly different OS's from all the others on the system)

and I'm here to spell out in general details, from first-hand experience, just

what's involved. I've developed code for 8 bit processors (desktop computers

and microcontrollers) and up to and including massively parallel processing

64-bit cloud computing database software at Yahoo! where I was laid off December

10th, and yes, I've even modified at the kernel level of operating systems,

developed 3D CAD software, etc. so I *think* I have a bit of credibility in this

realm, though by no means do I claim to know it all: anyone that does, is a

pathological liar, or an idiot, or both, because there's only ever one person of

any individual, and millions of people around the world changing/advancing

things even a little bit every day, and it is simply impossible to hope to keep

up with everything, even if you have no life.

> >

> > " Thanks for the the tips keep them comming "

> >

> > One other " tip. "

> >

> > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the

> drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has

> been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

> >

> > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with.

> >

> > Consider how many

> machines you stand to sell at all.

> >

> > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to

> load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you

> would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet

> competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same

> thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> >

> > So your machine is not going to be too cheap.

> >

> > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to

> breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this

antique,

> when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can

get

> a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster,

and

> with the newest software already installed?

> >

> > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a

> personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child

> to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM

> typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid.

> >

> >

> > Administrator

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards

founded

> by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the

> www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum

> administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

>

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... No need to be nasty. I am probably the

most positive person who has been posting to you on this topic ... <snip> ... "

Honestly, gprobertson, do you really have to define other people's posts that

disagree with your opinions as nasty?

strict is very knowledgeable in this area and he is being not only realistic but

extremely generous with his posts in providing so much detail.

As for you being the most positive person who has been posting to on this

topic, you need a serious reality check. There have been many who have given

excellent suggestions and advice and words of encouragement.

I did, too, until I realized he is an opportunist in the most negative sense of

the word.

It would appear that your intention is to derail the discussion towards a

discussion about how you are being victimized by others here because you are the

only 'nice' one here and everyone else is 'nasty.'

Raven

[Guest guest]

" You need to be patient and know that change can take a long time for some

people who have been treated as useless all their lives, but you get a really

big buzz when you realize you have made a difference to someone. "

While individual people might have caused someone trouble, the world as a whole

did not. One needs to recognize that the world is not going to sit around and

wait for people to recover from whatever trauma they have sufferred. The world

moves on, and we need to move with it.

Perhaps it is good to have stepping stones so people can make it back to full

operational status. But a single low plateau is not enough, nor should it be the

apex of our ascent.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

That comment was on a post that was talking about the hazards of using microsoft products. I don't think you needed to be nasty to me. In an earlier email I posted a link to a compamy that seems similar to the one you propose and they do use open source software and they do teach the people who include ppl with intellectual disabilities and people who include technophobes how to use it. The training is all a part of the package and because they are certified trainers, the government pays the trainer's salary. You do not have to be an ubergeek to have a basic understanding of Linux appropriate to most users needs. I know that from personal experience because I am no geek but they got me using Linux well enough to manage a small network in 3 hours. I think it would take longer for a complete novice. I also know of people who started as novices and joined the organization as volunteers so that they could learn more.No need to be nasty. I am probably the most positive person who has been posting to you on this topic.

I'm not going to involve myself in a discussion about which system is the best for whom except to say that I have had flirtations with Firefox and Linux and found them annoying to use, but that's just me.

As for Strict's verbiage, I've known Strict since the very earliest days of Aspergia, and in does seem to me the way he says things has become a bit more "strict" and stern in recent years. I expect his manner of speaking in THIS forum towards ME is because he has still never forgiven me for going "under cover" to expose a bunch of thieves and trolls on an old message board and he doubts my motives, sincerity and honesty in trying to provide a legitimate place for Aspies to communicate with one another here.

I know he tends to spar with Maurice over an issue that Maurice has with educational systems, and now here he is trying to dissuade from involving hismelf in a new venture which MIGHT be of some benefit to Aspies.

While I tend to agree that it is not a good idea to flatten and steamroll over an Aspie's desire to help other fellow Aspies, I think if one deletes the sarcasm from Strict's posts, one will see that Strict has provided some good reasons to either not attempt the venture or else to make sure that if is going to attempt the venture that he know what he is doing so it does not become a situation where the blind are leading the blind.

You have every right to state your own opinion on the matter, and in this instance you have been very polite and earnest.

Yet Strict is equally earnest in telling that there are a lot of things is not considering or has not considered during his conceptualization of this project.

I also think Strict is annoyed for a reason you may not see. I will endeavor to explain this now...

I can tell you that Raven and I have this MIC project going and it has taken off, but there was considerable effort involved in getting it to where it is now. The reason it took considerable effort is because we did it honestly, legally, and we didn't take any short cuts.

Twice before I have seen people come to this forum or to one of the inner forums with brainchilds that were founded on an earnest desire to help Aspies, but with either a not so earnest desire to make scads of money off the effort, or a not so earnest attempt to take some immoral short cuts.

I have used a similar fervency to Strict's to torpedo these projects before they took off because I smelled a rat with both of them and I because I thought that they were taking short cuts which were going to land them in trouble somewhere down the road.

Nothing could be more frustrating to see these people gleefully persisting with their endeavors in the face of this constructive criticism to the point where, in one of the two cases, they were endangering the welfare of the people they were supposedly trying to help. (That would have been the case of someone wanting to start a school for kids on the spectrum, and three people this person chose for her board of directors were

1) A fellow (since banned) who by his own admission was denied rights to see his children because a court had decided he was a danger to them. He was also an avid supporter of pot smoking for non-medicinal purposes, something that is illegal on the federal and state level in all states in the US.

2) A fellow who financially took advantage of a member here.

3) A person who asserted the argument that sex between two consenting people was acceptable, even if one of the consenting people was below the age of legal majority and the other was an adult.

She started her school anyway, and those three people are now on her board.

And I was blasted by a few liberal members (which I have since banned) because I was not liberal enough to support a woman who would have such a board of directors for this children's school.

My language became much more like Strict's during the whole argument.)

Conversely, I have offered words of support to those who have attempted to do what they believe is right for autistics even if I was not always in support of every single one of their endeavors. For instance, I support Ari on general principles, but I do not support his protest against Tony Attwood & Co.

I also support YOUR efforts to advocate, but not every single thing you actually do, nor do I support all of your opinions.

At any rate, yes, Strict could be using less sarcasm, but so could all of us at one point or another. I find that Strict tend to be in top form and most informative when he actually posts, and I would rather have him posting his views about these issues than not because taken as a whole, they are spot on. (With the possible exception of his defense of the American auto industry ).

SOMEONE needs to tell it like it is and it might as well be him, and truth to tell, if I COULD speak like he does, I would, but I tend to reign my passions in so as not to scare members away if I can help it.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

You replied to *MY POST* that had directly to deal with the request for advice,

where it only made sense that you were advocating that the computers

sold/whatever have open source software used on them, that are recycled, instead

of Microsoft products.

That you learned enough in a few hours to manage a small network using Linux

*after it has already been installed on all the computers* in a few hours.

Well, I'm here to tell you now: that's above the level of knowledge expected of

someone that might be in a market for recycled computers, if they bought them

because they didn't have the knowledge to build it themselves from used parts,

and the level of knowledge required to deal with finding yourself with a

computer where not everything is exactly as you want it out of the box when it

comes to low-level things (say, installing most software in Linux, including

drivers) starts climbing very quickly, just for one version.

You were off, it seems, to derail the thread into an OSS versus

Microsoft/proprietary software religious war, away from the topic of the thread

of how to recycle computers for a theoretically non-profit entity that trains

people, while intended to also profit the organizer(s), and you come charging in

and insist that OSS is the solution. Well, no: not everything calls for OSS, as

not everything calls for proprietary software, and in the case of the business

plan (model, actually: evidence to me is clear that no single business plan has

been created, because I can point out so many holes in the issue it makes swiss

cheese look like an opaque and solid shield) not only does it not solve the

problem, but it ends up creating so many more that would make it the ultimate

time/money black hole in terms of learning curve both on the side of the

non-profit before selling the machine, as well as for any expectations of

technical support required for that machine *after* it was sold/given away.

Here's the funny thing: if someone getting trained to do all this at the

non-profit was able to manage this all properly, and properly setup all these

machines using Linux and all the other OSS software that replaces everything,

they'd definitely be employable, if only for their now deep understanding of all

the weird Linux package managers and their esoteric commands, as well as all the

knowledge of the (most likely) older, varying technology through the many years

of the machines, since those things are fairly decent transferable skills, even

though I've seen many different generations of memory technology, CPU

technology, hard drive technology, optical drive technology, printer technology,

printer/similar device technology, networking technology, peripheral bus

technology, and a few other new ones that simply didn't exist until recently,

come and go. However, that won't necessarily make anyone that's been working

with all those machines up-to-date, because it all changes so fast: it won't be

long before PCI (the original) is a mystery to most people. " How quaint! "

people will say, " Having all the data lanes in parallel? What were they

thinking, that slows things down! " It really is entertaining to see things

having gone from serial to parallel to serial again, all in the name of speed,

and what's more, it's more entertaining to see that, and know exactly why with

the limits of the technology of the time that they did that, and see that it

actually makes sense how the progression of such things has gone. I'll go out

on a limb right now: there's a high chance within the next decade that there

will be another major paradigm shift in processor design/implementation. If

things are done well enough, the average end-user will be blissfully ignorant of

how drastically things have changed under the hood, in the same way that Apple

has mostly seamlessly transitioned their operating system and hardware between

different microprocessors. However, at the lowest level, it will be a major

change for software developers to know how to use this new processor design

effectively. For a lot of people, this will end their ability to be productive

in the field.

Bah, I have other things I need to do ASAP, this is all for this post.

> > >

> > > " Thanks for the the tips keep them comming "

> > >

> > > One other " tip. "

> > >

> > > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping

the

>

> > drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that

has

> > been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirat

> ed software.

> > >

> > > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with.

> > >

> > > Consider how many

> > machines you stand to sell at all.

> > >

> > > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software

to

> > load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you

> > would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet

> > competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the

same

> > thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> > >

> > > So your machine is not going to be too cheap.

> > >

> > > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to

> > breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this

> antique,

> > when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can

> get

> > a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster,

> and

> > with the newest software already installed?

> > >

> > > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a

> > personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a

child

>

> > to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM

> > typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a

kid.

>

> > >

> > >

> > > Administrator

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards

> founded

> > by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the

> > www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum

> > administrator, use this e-mail address:

FAMSecretSociety-owner

> >

> > Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I thank you for your support,

My experience is that I can't always detect when sarcasm is intended or not when

it comes to such OS/open source/proprietary software holy wars (yes, that's

exactly what they are) but towards the ends of that realm (it gets rather

stinky) those who tend to fight on either one side or the other to the exclusion

of seeing the benefits of both, tend to do it with a ferocity and sarcasm so

deep that it's an event horizon that they're either going past, or just on the

edge.

Here is my viewpoint on open source software: it has both good and bad points

about it, and the licensing often determines quite a bit of the good and bad

points about it, but also, like any religion, so do the practicers of such tend

to get rather extreme, and do their cause far more harm than good. Some

licenses are Borg-like: you, too, will become one with the Borg, and all

resistance is futile, and you will become part of the collective (GNU licensing

that's viral) some is more truly free in other senses than the GNU variants:

they don't actually taint your software into being stuck with their license if

you utilize the code in question. Some people make it truly public domain, and

don't even worry about getting credit for the code, and in some cases,

explicitly ask you not to associate their name with your product.

There's a major practical flaw in a lot of the OSS licenses and the theory of

making money off the code: because the licensing restricts you from making money

off the sale of licenses of the code that utilizes other code, even if you wrote

it yourself, your code is from then on forced to use that license (GNU, not the

lesser-GNU, is the prime example most commonly seen) and you are unable to sell

licenses to the software, regardless of how much code and invention you put into

it, merely because it uses some amount of code someone else created. While

proponents claim that the licensing makes it " free " the invention of the creator

of the code that uses any amount of that, is NOT at all free as a result for

that creator to use as they please: the licensing then restricts them from being

able to sell that software (itself) at anything beyond " a reasonable

distribution cost " (love those legal vagaries!) as well as requiring them to

expose all their code for others to reuse under the same requirements. In a

perfect world where everyone always has as much as they want/need for resources,

regardless of what they do otherwise, this may work in practice in a way that's

desirable for the creators in all cases. But, what if there's some great amount

of genius, or just a heck of a lot of work that went into creating that

additional bit of code? Can anyone say just what it took to develop the skills

and knowledge base to get to that point to provide something that's potentially

truly great? How many man-years to get to that point, where all they've done is

specialize on what's required to accomplish that? The business models those

using the GNU license believe will work is this: either provide training/support

services for using the software, or provide custom modifications for it. Well,

here's the rub: since you're required to make the source code fully available

(for a reasonable distribution cost, when they ask) who is to say that the

creator will get any bit of that business at all? NONE. Here's the other quirk

about that requirement: generally speaking, software that requires all that

support, generally isn't all that user-friendly: in a lot of cases, what's

provided is more like a software Erector Set, Some Assembly Required. If it

were sold on a computer store's shelf to most people, they would never buy it,

because it just requires too much from them, somehow. Such licensing at that

extreme is at least as bad as what the zealots state is wrong about proprietary

software, in its own way. What I find entertaining (and frustrating at the same

time) is because of this licensing model, and how many people have bought into

all the hype, is that the people that end up profiting from it.... tend to be

the huge corporations that recognize the immense amount of man-years that went

into something like Linux, recognize its power, and recognize that it's so

complex that most mere mortals can't be bothered with (if they're even capable

of doing it at all) learning all the details and how to make it sing, so they

have their consultants and technical support for it, and they make massive

amounts of money off of the backs of all the people that worked on this software

over a very long period of time, and they don't need to pay them a cent. Oh,

sure, they may hire a few people part/full-time to work on such software, but

that's only because of all the others also working on it, and they have specific

goals for commercial purposes: it's also great PR for them.

Now, some zealots say that OSS tends to be better than proprietary software:

well, some of it is, but the curious thing is that software and what's

successful is very much a Darwinian competition, the survival of the fittest,

whether it be the PR, or the quality of the software, and the number of people

they can get to work on it. It's far from universal that OSS is great stuff:

what's true is that the shiniest object tends to get the most attention, and

people forget about all the other crap that's been published, as it tends to

fade away, hopefully into completely being lost, unless there's a combination of

passionate people that also know what they're doing, that make it nicer. I've

attempted to build several code bases of OSS projects, to discover that their

code base was so FUBAR that it couldn't even be built for various reasons, and

even if I could hack away at it for a short time and get it to actually build,

based on all the issues, I'd have little faith that it would do as advertised:

such projects are a time/effort black hole of the finest variety, and amount

quite a bit to the old story about someone creating Stone Soup, but often

nothing edible results in these cases. I'd be willing to bet there are far more

failed projects than there are successful, known projects that people use.

No, I'm not saying proprietary software is ideal, either: there's at least as

much crap out there, well, assuming it actually gets onto shelves or download

servers, and people know about it, and it remains available: if it is truly bad,

it tends to have the free market forces weed it out fairly quickly, though there

are certainly cases where the " best " software isn't what ends up winning the

race. Having worked both on OSS and proprietary software, I can tell you of

horrible turds I've seen in all kinds of software, that scare those that

recognize what they're looking at. But, I'm not going to go into all the

good/bad things about proprietary software: clearly, others here know more than

I do

>

>

> That comment was on a post that was talking about the hazards of using

> microsoft products. I don't think you needed to be nasty to me. In an

> earlier email I posted a link to a compamy that seems similar to the one

> you propose and they do use open source software and they do teach the

> people who include ppl with intellectual disabilities and people who

> include technophobes how to use it. The training is all a part of the

> package and because they are certified trainers, the government pays the

> trainer's salary.

>

> You do not have to be an ubergeek to have a basic understanding of Linux

> appropriate to most users needs. I know that from personal experience

> because I am no geek but they got me using Linux well enough to manage a

> small network in 3 hours. I think it would take longer for a complete

> novice. I also know of people who started as novices and joined the

> organization as volunteers so that they could learn more.

>

> No need to be nasty. I am probably the most positive person who has

> been posting to you on this topic.

>

> I'm not going to involve myself in a discussion about which system is

> the best for whom except to say that I have had flirtations with Firefox

> and Linux and found them annoying to use, but that's just me.

>

> As for Strict's verbiage, I've known Strict since the very earliest days

> of Aspergia, and in does seem to me the way he says things has become a

> bit more " strict " and stern in recent years. I expect his manner of

> speaking in THIS forum towards ME is because he has still never forgiven

> me for going " under cover " to expose a bunch of thieves and trolls on an

> old message board and he doubts my motives, sincerity and honesty in

> trying to provide a legitimate place for Aspies to communicate with one

> another here.

>

> I know he tends to spar with Maurice over an issue that Maurice has with

> educational systems, and now here he is trying to dissuade from

> involving hismelf in a new venture which MIGHT be of some benefit to

> Aspies.

>

> While I tend to agree that it is not a good idea to flatten and

> steamroll over an Aspie's desire to help other fellow Aspies, I think if

> one deletes the sarcasm from Strict's posts, one will see that Strict

> has provided some good reasons to either not attempt the venture or else

> to make sure that if is going to attempt the venture that he know

> what he is doing so it does not become a situation where the blind are

> leading the blind.

>

> You have every right to state your own opinion on the matter, and in

> this instance you have been very polite and earnest.

>

> Yet Strict is equally earnest in telling that there are a lot of

> things is not considering or has not considered during his

> conceptualization of this project.

>

> I also think Strict is annoyed for a reason you may not see. I will

> endeavor to explain this now...

>

> I can tell you that Raven and I have this MIC project going and it has

> taken off, but there was considerable effort involved in getting it to

> where it is now. The reason it took considerable effort is because we

> did it honestly, legally, and we didn't take any short cuts.

>

> Twice before I have seen people come to this forum or to one of the

> inner forums with brainchilds that were founded on an earnest desire to

> help Aspies, but with either a not so earnest desire to make scads of

> money off the effort, or a not so earnest attempt to take some immoral

> short cuts.

>

> I have used a similar fervency to Strict's to torpedo these projects

> before they took off because I smelled a rat with both of them and I

> because I thought that they were taking short cuts which were going to

> land them in trouble somewhere down the road.

>

> Nothing could be more frustrating to see these people gleefully

> persisting with their endeavors in the face of this constructive

> criticism to the point where, in one of the two cases, they were

> endangering the welfare of the people they were supposedly trying to

> help. (That would have been the case of someone wanting to start a

> school for kids on the spectrum, and three people this person chose for

> her board of directors were

>

> 1) A fellow (since banned) who by his own admission was denied rights to

> see his children because a court had decided he was a danger to them. He

> was also an avid supporter of pot smoking for non-medicinal purposes,

> something that is illegal on the federal and state level in all states

> in the US.

>

> 2) A fellow who financially took advantage of a member here.

>

> 3) A person who asserted the argument that sex between two consenting

> people was acceptable, even if one of the consenting people was below

> the age of legal majority and the other was an adult.

>

> She started her school anyway, and those three people are now on her

> board.

>

> And I was blasted by a few liberal members (which I have since banned)

> because I was not liberal enough to support a woman who would have such

> a board of directors for this children's school.

>

> My language became much more like Strict's during the whole argument.)

>

> Conversely, I have offered words of support to those who have attempted

> to do what they believe is right for autistics even if I was not always

> in support of every single one of their endeavors. For instance, I

> support Ari on general principles, but I do not support his protest

> against Tony Attwood & Co.

>

> I also support YOUR efforts to advocate, but not every single thing you

> actually do, nor do I support all of your opinions.

>

> At any rate, yes, Strict could be using less sarcasm, but so could all

> of us at one point or another. I find that Strict tend to be in top form

> and most informative when he actually posts, and I would rather have him

> posting his views about these issues than not because taken as a whole,

> they are spot on. (With the possible exception of his defense of the

> American auto industry [] ).

>

> SOMEONE needs to tell it like it is and it might as well be him, and

> truth to tell, if I COULD speak like he does, I would, but I tend to

> reign my passions in so as not to scare members away if I can help it.

>

>

>

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

I said:

"Perhaps it is good to have stepping stones so people can make it back to full operational status. But a single low plateau is not enough, nor should it be the apex of our ascent."

You replied:

"Patience in encouraging change is about involving an individual in planning and making small steps towards the goal, but that wont be achieved by nagging and/or negative statements for the vast majority of people."

My reply:

We must indeed accept that if a person does not want to move toward a change, even if it is toward their personal advanatge, we must not press them.

But what does one do when their apathy, lack of planning, lack of stepping interferes with my own forward progress?

If Aspies are regarded as lazy, dependent, self-serving, egotistical people, why should my life be imposed upon by this sterotype when all Aspies have to do collectively is change the stereotype by being ambitious, self-sufficient, philanthropic, and altruistic?

If the lifestyle of other people had no effect on me, then I would not care, but I am sick of having bad stereotypes used to label me before people get a chance to find out who I am and what I can do.

There is truth in stereotypes, and truth in prejudice. If stereotyping and prejudice exists, it is because someone, or a group of people have drawn conclusions based on observed behavior. Sometimes, those conclusions are true. If they are false, then the stereotyped and prejudged individuals are responsible for disproving them.

If I am complaining, moaning, whining, etc., it is because gentle argumentation, logical reasoning, persuasion etc., have all failed, and I have no choice but to express my exasperation at the individuals directly responsible for causing the stereotypes and prejudices they so despise.

You said:

"Some people prefer to and have the capacity do this alone, but many need encouragement and support."

My reply:

After nearly a decade of providing encouragement and support for naught, I have elected to assume that if people are not going to change via encouragement or support, they are not going to change at all, and that the verbiage used to describe them is indeed accurate and fair.

How many more decades would you have me spend encouraging and supporting people if the result is no progress whatsoever?

If I were an elected official, I would have been voted out of office by the end of my first term for my inability to think outside the box and try something different than JUST supporting and encouraging if I did things your way.

You said:

"Patience is also about not giving up on people because they can't meet your expectations."

My reply:

Hmm... Let me get this straight. If 1 in 166 people in the world have autism, that means that around .6% of 1% of the world's population are Aspies, and it means that 99.3 percent of society are NOT autistic. Now if 99.3% of society have expectations of autistics, shouldn't we make some kind of ATTEMPT to meet them to the degree that we can?

Instead what I keep hearing is that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, as though 99.3% of the population of the population needs to meet that .6% of 1%of the population's needs.

It's an absurd assertion. Yes, we need to be accommodated in some ways, but that does not mean we need to sit around and be catered to.

You said:

"Patient education support means that you will involve the other person in breaking down his/her goals into more achievable chunks that might be very small. It also involves the educator/support person putting aside ego in measuring success by the number of "star pupils" he/she has and instead, valuing how far learners have come more than the destination."

My reply:

Agreed, but when the pupils in question are not even interested in learning or achieving, THEN what is an educator to do. I am sure there are plenty of NTs that don't want to be in school either, or learn anything, yet the majority of THEM make the effort. Why can't we?

Administrator