Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?

[Guest guest]

http://www.idahostatesman.com/LOCALNEWS/story/755859.html

Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?

Court records reveal Abramowski made brutal plans to kill his parents

April 5 because he got grounded.

BY PATRICK ORR - porr@...

Published: 05/03/09

Abramowski freely confessed to Boise police that he set his West Boise

home on fire last month, officials say.

The 15-year-old even told investigators he opted for arson only when his more

gruesome original plan to kill his parents fell through.

But court records obtained by the Statesman reveal that the boy had been

diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, often described as a milder form of autism -

and possibly offer one explanation for what police accuse the teen of doing.

Children who suffer from Asperger's can be consumed with illegal ideas without

really considering the consequences of their actions, said Barbara Haskins, an

associate professor of clinical psychiatry at University of Virginia who has

studied the correlation between Asperger's and criminal behavior.

The syndrome affects a child's ability to socialize and communicate effectively.

" One of the things about Asperger's is a preoccupation with obsession, to the

point of total oblivion, where they don't see any red lights " telling them to

stop doing something, Haskins said.

As an example, Haskins said did research on one teen who was obsessed with

trains and eventually decided to try to steal a train engine without really

understanding how criminal that activity was.

Family members of Abramowski have declined to comment since his arrest last week

so it is unclear how long the teen has been diagnosed with Asperger's or how it

affected his behavior.

Abramowski's parents and other family members attended the teen's initial court

appearance last week to show their support. They told a judge they will hire an

attorney for the boy.

Police said they made sure Abramowski was able to clearly explain all his

constitutional rights to detectives and had signed his Miranda form before

making his detailed confession.

Ada County prosecutors made it clear last week the boy was being charged as an

adult for arson because Idaho law requires it when anyone over 14 sets fire to a

place where people are present. Though he had detailed how he wanted to kill his

parents, as of Friday the teen was not charged with attempted murder.

Although the teen is being held on a $500,000 bond because he could pose a

flight risk, a judge moved him to a juvenile facility from the Ada County Jail

on Wednesday.

A CHILLING PLAN

Abramowski told detectives he was upset with his parents because he was

grounded. He said he worked out a plan where he would stab his mother while she

was sleeping and then shoot his father when he came home from work that morning.

When asked where he would get a gun, the teen told police he had been target

shooting with his father in the past and knew his father had two handguns, but

was not sure where they were kept in the home.

But Abramowski told police he had to come up with a different plan at the last

second because he overslept. When he woke up, his father was already home and in

bed.

That is when he decided on arson.

Abramowski told police he first packed a backpack so he could run away to San

Francisco, which he described as a " Mecca for runaway juveniles, " somewhere he

could " blend in. "

He got dressed, got a gas can from the garage and poured gas on the floor of the

guest bedroom - a room he said he picked because it was under his parents'

bedroom.

He told police he hoped the fire would burn through the ceiling of the bedroom,

causing his parents' bed to fall into the flames below. But the teen forgot

about the smoke alarms, which went off almost immediately after he lit the fire.

He ran away, leaving his backpack and the gas can behind.

[Guest guest]

This is a total misrepresentation. What, are they going to make us all wear patches on our sleeves in a couple of years to let people know to be afraid of the "dangerously evil Aspie?"

I very rarely caused trouble as a child and when I did it was far less destructive and malicious than what the NT kids would do.

Is AS being claimed by defendants? Probably yes. The insanity defense came about in the 1960's I think it was because of a single case. It was a civil case of a mentally retarded man who liked going into neighbor's yards and pulling their laundry off the line and throwing it on the ground. It was found that because he had the mental capacity of a very young child that he was mentally incapable of understanding the wrongness of what he was doing. Since then, defense lawyers have been abusing that statute in criminal cases trying to say that for whatever reason their client has a "diminished capacity" to understand right and wrong.

AS and autism are simply the new version of this and lawyers will be trying to use it as a defense. Unfortunately, I think there will also be a percentage of Aspies who will see this and think they can do a few bad things and get away with it. This will, of course, reflect very badly on the rest of us.

> Children who suffer from Asperger's can be consumed with illegal ideas without really considering the consequences of their actions, said Barbara Haskins, an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at University of Virginia who has studied the correlation between Asperger's and criminal behavior.> > The syndrome affects a child's ability to socialize and communicate effectively. > > "One of the things about Asperger's is a preoccupation with obsession, to the point of total oblivion, where they don't see any red lights" telling them to stop doing something, Haskins said. 2009 3 Free CREDIT SCORES: See Your 3 Credit Scores from All 3 Bureaus FREE!

[Guest guest]

How often are people using AS as excuse for the heinous this is about as

bright as using being a blonde as an excuse for something

>

> http://www.idahostatesman.com/LOCALNEWS/story/755859.html

>

> Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?

>

> Court records reveal Abramowski made brutal plans to kill his parents

April 5 because he got grounded.

>

> BY PATRICK ORR - porr@...

> Published: 05/03/09

>

> Abramowski freely confessed to Boise police that he set his West Boise

home on fire last month, officials say.

>

> The 15-year-old even told investigators he opted for arson only when his more

gruesome original plan to kill his parents fell through.

>

> But court records obtained by the Statesman reveal that the boy had been

diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, often described as a milder form of autism -

and possibly offer one explanation for what police accuse the teen of doing.

>

> Children who suffer from Asperger's can be consumed with illegal ideas without

really considering the consequences of their actions, said Barbara Haskins, an

associate professor of clinical psychiatry at University of Virginia who has

studied the correlation between Asperger's and criminal behavior.

>

> The syndrome affects a child's ability to socialize and communicate

effectively.

>

> " One of the things about Asperger's is a preoccupation with obsession, to the

point of total oblivion, where they don't see any red lights " telling them to

stop doing something, Haskins said.

>

> As an example, Haskins said did research on one teen who was obsessed with

trains and eventually decided to try to steal a train engine without really

understanding how criminal that activity was.

>

> Family members of Abramowski have declined to comment since his arrest last

week so it is unclear how long the teen has been diagnosed with Asperger's or

how it affected his behavior.

>

> Abramowski's parents and other family members attended the teen's initial

court appearance last week to show their support. They told a judge they will

hire an attorney for the boy.

>

> Police said they made sure Abramowski was able to clearly explain all his

constitutional rights to detectives and had signed his Miranda form before

making his detailed confession.

>

> Ada County prosecutors made it clear last week the boy was being charged as an

adult for arson because Idaho law requires it when anyone over 14 sets fire to a

place where people are present. Though he had detailed how he wanted to kill his

parents, as of Friday the teen was not charged with attempted murder.

>

> Although the teen is being held on a $500,000 bond because he could pose a

flight risk, a judge moved him to a juvenile facility from the Ada County Jail

on Wednesday.

>

> A CHILLING PLAN

>

> Abramowski told detectives he was upset with his parents because he was

grounded. He said he worked out a plan where he would stab his mother while she

was sleeping and then shoot his father when he came home from work that morning.

>

> When asked where he would get a gun, the teen told police he had been target

shooting with his father in the past and knew his father had two handguns, but

was not sure where they were kept in the home.

>

> But Abramowski told police he had to come up with a different plan at the last

second because he overslept. When he woke up, his father was already home and in

bed.

>

> That is when he decided on arson.

>

> Abramowski told police he first packed a backpack so he could run away to San

Francisco, which he described as a " Mecca for runaway juveniles, " somewhere he

could " blend in. "

>

> He got dressed, got a gas can from the garage and poured gas on the floor of

the guest bedroom - a room he said he picked because it was under his parents'

bedroom.

>

> He told police he hoped the fire would burn through the ceiling of the

bedroom, causing his parents' bed to fall into the flames below. But the teen

forgot about the smoke alarms, which went off almost immediately after he lit

the fire. He ran away, leaving his backpack and the gas can behind.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> http://www.idahostatesman.com/LOCALNEWS/story/755859.html

>

> Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?

>

> Court records reveal Abramowski made brutal plans to kill his parents

April 5 because he got grounded.

>

> BY PATRICK ORR - porr@...

> Published: 05/03/09

>

> Abramowski freely confessed to Boise police that he set his West Boise

home on fire last month, officials say.

>

Ravi in the past has told me I am fired, he hates me and he's going to kill me.

This is always fleeting and when he is most upset (like he has to do something

undesireable (math homework) or he has gotten in trouble

Usually I try to stem the tide before he gets this upset, or i try to reason him

out of it (explaining what it would mean if I were not there to say: make his

dinner)

Usually far more often I am told I am loved and he introduces me to anyone we

meet: " This is my mommy "

I can imagine that if not delt with properly a teen could get angry enough to

enact a plan (if only to devise a way of not being caught)

I don't think it is an excuse as much as communication between an AS person and

his family, in my opinion dialogue between parents and children should start

early and be meaningful (I don't punish Ravi everyday and I work to have an

understanding of the rules)

This is a major reason wht understanding,accomidating and supporting your ASD

child is important. Meds can exaserbate the reality fantasy line. I try to use

as much common sense and reality as possible, so that over time he builds an

understanding of reality, right and wrong.

Hey cognition is hard to " teach " Tell an angry frustrated child why not

to harm someone that has harmed him or why not to harm himself. Autism can have

both extremes, as many on this site have opted to harm themselves rather than

others

[Guest guest]

> >

> > http://www.idahostatesman.com/LOCALNEWS/story/755859.html

> >

> > Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?

> >

I just want to add before I am blasted for this

ASD is complex as we know

It has good and bad points (hiding our heads in the sand will not make violent

acts go away)

I am not saying forgive bad behavior-- I am saying be aware it is possible but

do not assume the person is evil (but they do need help)

This is a parents job (I have been hit by Ravi and I changed my behavior and

that changed his) I am not embarrased as this is reality (I am not angry at him:

I am aware he doesn't always understand) He has over time gotten way way better

But I am being real here I know my actions now will dictate his future, I parent

him with purpose and strategy. I am always thinking how Ravi will respond to

things he gets told. (Cognition is hard)

[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... I am not saying forgive bad behavior-- I am saying

be aware it is possible but do not assume the person is evil ... <snip> ... "

I don't hear you saying to forgive the bad behaviour however the courts and

lawyers need to also stop allowing bad behaviour to go unaddressed under the

guise of a diagnosis being the reason for said bad behaviour.

Even people with severe developmental delays can -- and usually do -- know the

difference between right and wrong.

It doesn't make the person evil; it makes what they have done inappropriate and

wrong.

Raven

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't hear you saying to forgive the bad behaviour however the courts and

lawyers need to also stop allowing bad behaviour to go unaddressed under the

guise of a diagnosis being the reason for said bad behaviour.

>

> Even people with severe developmental delays can -- and usually do -- know the

difference between right and wrong.

>

> It doesn't make the person evil; it makes what they have done inappropriate

and wrong.

>

> Raven

>

I am saying behaviors good and bad are gained over time and that parents need to

guide their children knowing what to look at for when their ability to dicern

right from wrong is delayed.

At 4 ravi may have hurt me enough to cause injury but knowing this: I as a

parent acted accordingly (I guess my real statement is: that not taking the time

to understand your child can and does create monsters, that are doomed to enjoy

lodging in state facilities)

As or not but more likely as because parents are parenting their ASD child the

same way, and you just can't it is a different process

Also the media loves to jump on this stuff as it can create characters for the

readers to follow. Like: the boy suffers from Aspergers " dun dun duh " so

something bad follows.

everyone has their hand in a thing for their own reasons and the child always

suffers

Newspaper wants to sell papers

community wants a villan

parents want to feel blameless

so who is left the misparented child

It really could be the story of any of us when we are push too far AS or not.

The media makes it sound simple and evil and Aspergers is in there for spice

[Guest guest]

the next paragraphs are from http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc.htm

Question

One of our students is a 15 year old tenth grader who is diagnosed as " seriously

emotionally disturbed. " Academically, he is functioning on approximately 2nd

grade level. His current placement is 23.5 hours a week in a self-contained

classroom, with 7.5 hours in general education - this placement is because of

behavior problems.

School problem behaviors include: Cursing, threatening to kill teachers,

threatening to kill administrators, fighting with peers, jumped out of moving

school bus to fight, spitting on peer. Non-compliant. Total disregard for

authority figures. Home behavior includes: Running away, non-compliance,

starting fires, threatening adults, threatening to blow up school, etc.

He was placed in residential treatment facility on an emergency basis. Because

of insurance issues, he will be released in 48 hours. This placement was done by

law enforcement and health agencies after a blow up at home.

School officials have met many times to review placement, goals and needs.

What obligations does the school system have? Must the school continue to

provide special education services in the current setting if they believe the

student is a danger to himself or others? What if the school has no alternative

placement within the system that is appropriate? What about the safety of the

other students, teachers, administrators?

A psychological report confirms that the student is a danger, capable of

shooting others. This situation is immediate. Please respond.

Answer

School's Legal Obligations

Regarding the school's legal obligations, you should read the U. S. Supreme

Court's decision in Honig v. Doe

(http://www.wrightslaw.com/law/caselaw/ussupct.honig.doe.htm) that was issued in

1988. The legal citation for Honig v. Doe is 484 U.S. 305.

You will also find Honig v. Doe in our book, slaw: Special Education Law,

2nd Edition. The facts in Honig are similar to the facts you describe in your

case.

But What is Driving Him?

You need to know what is driving this kid to act the way he does. Did he pop out

of the womb as an angry vicious young man? Or, did his anger develop slowly over

time?

Schools often develop treatment plans (IEPs) without adequately studying the

case history and why previous efforts failed or exacerbated the problem. As the

kid gets worse, schools (and society) blame the kid, instead of looking at what

should have been done and was not done, and what can be done now.

This is why, when I am consulted about a case, I insist on seeing the earliest

reports and test data, I read everything in chronological order, pre-school and

KG reports first, so I can see how the child evolved and what happened. By the

time I get to the end of the very thick file, it all clicks and makes sense. The

present situation is absolutely predictable. What to do?

[Guest guest]

Good morning;Have been pondering this thread and the implications.

1. a)Those who are dedicated parents and sensitive to their children, like many on this group, can 'parent' to their child's needs.

not all parents are willing or able to parent to their child's needs yet are not so incompetant that the authorities will remove the child from the home. The implications for child with special needs in this type of setting are really sad.2) the outside world is not aware nor sensitive to different abilities and responses.

(see footnote below)- eventually a child needs to learn impulse control, to know when to say 'that is too much' and walk away, before they reach a point where they might lose self control; Also to understand the possible consequences of actions (as Minim is teaching Ravi)3. Ideally the rest of us would respect when someone tells us they are getting upset and need to take a break, or when someone says 'don't touch me' BUT this does not always happen......4. a) A personal view; I see murder as murder, and wrong unless in self defence. Murder comitted in the heat of an argumant is wrong, but I believe premeditated murder is a particularly evil and cold blooded act.

legally there are different things a person could be charged with and prosecuted for, if they do someting that results in the death of a human being.

5. premiditated murder requires careful, or not so careful, planning.To be able to go about one's days, while plotting to kill one's parents, or employer, collegues, etc seems to me to be particularily evil.

In the past few years, there have been several cases of a young person charged with murdering a parent in Alberta, (The province I live in). One occured this week.6. A rather morbid hobby of mine is reading true crime books.

7. The Schizophrenia Society of Alberta says that there is a stereotype of people with mental illness being prone to commit violence. (when a person with schizophrenia is charged with a violent crime, their illness is in the news).

This Society also stated that people with Schizophrenia are more likely to be Victims of violence than commit violence. (this was from an article a community newspaper, not online)

I DID find the following on a website;

FACT 5: SCHIZOPHRENIA drastically affects people’s quality of life. Many people in prison have the disease, as do many of the homeless. Forty percent (40%) of people with schizophrenia try to commit suicide; ten percent (10%) succeed.

http://www.ssard.com/facts.htm

NOTE: I am not stating that Autism is a mental illness, am pondering a comparison as victims not perpetrators of violence

8. people with Autism Spectum Disorders are often victims of bullying, and some have mentioned suicide attempts.

9. a dilemna; to not stereotype people with Autism as being violence prone BUT to deal with them justly.

renaissanzelady

Footnote:A few years ago I was a member of a women's discusion group that met in members homes. Most of the members were much older than me, and some were quite sophisticated, retired teachers, research scientists, etc. So, the 'tone' of our meeting was quire refined/sedate.

If someone arrived late, she would enter and join us quietly so as not to interupt.

One of our members was an extrovert and eccentric, loud and 'showy.'

Personally I found her rather overwhelming. Also I am not fond of unexpected

/ excessive human touch. I am an intovert, eccentric, tend to blend in with the woodwork.

This story is not directly about her, it is more about me.

This extrovert arrived late to a meeting, the hostess indicated that there was an empty place beside me on the couch. This latecomer scurried over and SAT IN MY LAP!

I was so shocked that I stood up and pushed her off, with vigor, and yelled somethng at her.

A horrified silence ensued.

The hostess said: "I meant for you to sit between the two ladies, not on one of them,"

The extrovert said; with much laughter: "I though you said to sit on her."

as she THEN sat beside me.

No one wwas injured nor was anything damaged.

BUT if someone had called the police, i could have been charged with assault. I would have claimed that I acted in self defence, that I WAS being assaulted.

Subject: Re: Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:55 AM

> >> > http://www.idahosta tesman.com/ LOCALNEWS/ story/755859. html> > > > Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?> > I just want to add before I am blasted for thisASD is complex as we knowIt has good and bad points (hiding our heads in the sand will not make violent acts go away)I am not saying forgive bad behavior-- I am saying be aware it is possible but do not assume the person is evil (but they do need help)This is a parents

job (I have been hit by Ravi and I changed my behavior and that changed his) I am not embarrased as this is reality (I am not angry at him: I am aware he doesn't always understand) He has over time gotten way way betterBut I am being real here I know my actions now will dictate his future, I parent him with purpose and strategy. I am always thinking how Ravi will respond to things he gets told. (Cognition is hard)

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[Guest guest]

"This extrovert arrived late to a meeting, the hostess indicated that there was an empty place beside me on the couch. This latecomer scurried over and SAT IN MY LAP! "I was so shocked that I stood up and pushed her off, with vigor, and yelled somethng at her.

"A horrified silence ensued.

"The hostess said: "I meant for you to sit between the two ladies, not on one of them,"

"The extrovert said; with much laughter: "I though you said to sit on her." as she THEN sat beside me.

"No one wwas injured nor was anything damaged.

"BUT if someone had called the police, i could have been charged with assault. I would have claimed that I acted in self defence, that I WAS being assaulted."

You probably would have been charged with assault, and here is an hypocrisy that bugs me:

Society would assume your reaction was an over-reaction brought on possibly by hostility, or a deliberate attempt to humiliate the woman caused by pre-existing negative thoughts/opinions about her.

But they would NOT assume that it is ridiculous to expect that

1) A hostess would tell a guest to sit on the lap of another guest, and that

2) BOTH guest would take the hostess seriously.

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