Re: Advice part 3

[Guest guest]

"I simply have not seen many programs for AS that involves helping the individual instead of just the parents."

I suppose there are two reasons for this:

1) Most of the programs that are created for AS people are ones designed by non-AS people for the express purpose of making them NT. ABA is the best example of this. Another example are AS support groups created by well-meaning NTs.

2) Having been to a number of conventions at which Aspies were paraded across the stage like guinea pigs and made to do all kinds of savant behaviors and grin and smile proudly as they did it, and having been to an NT founded support group in which the founder explained to my face in front of the Aspies he was leading that Aspies need to be told what to think with the Aspies looking at him with all the avidity of cows chewing cud, I have come to believe that the reason there are not more programs by Aspies for Aspies is because Aspies simply do not care about them.

They like it where they are.

I can remember being at a convention where crackpots were talking about the latest scientific research that suggested that Aspies were simply mentally retarded people who were given enough savant abilities to propel them from the bottom of the barrel to barely functioning in society, and that ABA therapy was the cure for this. Next up was an Aspie girl with really outstanding artistic ability who proudly talked about her achievements in the NT world.

Everyone nodded sympathetically at her as though they were humoring an ape that thought it had intelligence because it could use sign language. Then they proceeded to talk about the latest advances in hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

The girl did not in any way take offense to this negation of her, nor did she seem to care that her parents were getting rich off of selling her artwork, and that they were exploiting her like a stage mom exploits a Shirley Temple girl.

You see, I believe we don't have more Aspie self-help charities because Aspies are not interested in helping themselves, nor are they interested in combatting society's perceptions and stereotypes about them.

"The reason I mentioned my work scenario is that I get tired of hearing about AS folks getting taken advantage of like I have been over the years at my job."

Speaking as someone who has AS, I have never had anyone take advantage of me because I never LET them. I know others are taken advantage of because they may be lower functioning.

"Do you feel the AS community is too apathetic for a training program of any sorts? If not I already spend enough time on projects."

In my opinion, it depends. You will have a segment of the population which will take advantage of any program that they can find to advance themselves. But others would not care to make the effort. What you ought to do is survey the community in general and see what it is they want and what it is they need and their willingness to participate in such a program.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> First of all let me clear up a few things I was not looking get rich quick as

a big " oppourtunist " .

> I have ran a drum circle here for seven years now I have not made one dime

off of it.In contrast it has cost me several thousand dollars over the years but

I have put smiles on the faces of many.

> I have done fund a large fund raiser for a local non profit for abused

youth.

> I did a program for the mentally retarded(they really loved it)at another

non profit.

> I have never charged a penny and plan never to do so.

> I simply have not seen many programs for AS that involves helping the

individual instead of just the parents.

Yes, that is annoying...

> The reason I mentioned my work scenario is that I get tired of hearing

about AS folks getting taken advantage of like I have been over the years at my

job.

There's some amount of blame that can be associated with both sides, in most

cases.

> And also to let you know the director and officers are the highest paid

ones in any org non profit or for profit as far as that goes. I was only

planning on serving on the board(to keep the focus on AS) and doing low level

training(which maybe I am not qualified to do even that).

Have you attempted to be a teacher of any sort yet? If not, that's living

really dangerously for attempting to set up any sort of business, non-profit or

not, and expecting success.

Yes, it is reasonable that the higher-ups do get paid something, but if in the

truest sense of the definition of non-profit, preferably none at all, and

everyone would contribute their time/energy for free, though that doesn't seem

very realistic for anyone that's not already otherwise cash-enabled via personal

wealth that's been achieved in the past, or current employment, usually

necessitating part-time non-profit work, due to practical issues.

> Now that that is said the pc recycling has too many draw backs so leaving

that out of the scenario.

Yes, I'm glad you're seeing all the issues I pointed out, and I'm sure there's

more I didn't cover - that's what a business plan is for, and that has to be

done with data I don't have for your situation, nor do I have any desire to work

that hard for something that's clearly fatally flawed based on my experience and

knowledge.

Do you feel the AS community is too apathetic for a training program of any

sorts?

Now, you know what? That's a very interesting question! I'll speak on just my

own personal life/accomplishments in very brief terms, and compare/contrast them

to yours, as I think we (to some degree) define a large part of the spectrum

(I've held back way too long on word-play!) of people and their motivation.

Me: Not only have I taken advantage of all that was offered me, I made a darn

hard attempt to work with what I had, and do more than I had, towards my

educational/training goals. I wasn't diagnosed until I was well past being an

adult, though I was most certainly deeply entrenched before college-level

training in the special education department, which actually tended to get in my

way in some of my objectives. I was working towards what would more or less be

my career goals and the training required well before I got out of high school,

and spent half my school day in 11th-12th grades doing a robotics/automation

vocational education program, and that was the first they had offered that as

part of the county's vocational program selection. Yes, considering the area I

grew up in (AKA " Automation Alley " , in the metro Detroit area with lots of

automation and car factories, amongst other things) it was not only appropriate

for what was available/expected in the future, I was also very interested in it.

I also did very well in that course, overall, and unintentionally did 115% of

course work (correct, too!) during one marking period. I then attended ITT Tech

and did a full BASEET/AMT (electronics engineering technology specializing in

automated manufacturing technology) and did well there, too, over the 12

quarters, of which there was about 1 week break between each quarter: 3 calendar

years, 4 school years of 3 quarters each, no summer (or other) break, and all

this using student loans and working at the same time as best I could, no

scholarships or parent's money involved. Well, that was the starting point for

my technical career, and as life would have it, while I had the technical skills

to know what I was doing, poor motor coordination and other health issues made

me basically unemployable for the duties of my first assignment working at the

CD production plant owned by Sony, because I couldn't do things fast enough, and

I had major blood sugar regulation problems that I didn't fully know how to

control in a clean room environment with break restrictions as to times, etc.

and so I was fortunate in that employment situation that I had specialized

heavily in the programming realm since before I was a teenager, when

microcomputers were very primitive and still used cassette tape drives. I've

purposely chosen employment through the years to expand my skillset on the job,

and that's just what I've done on the job. At the last place I worked in

Indianapolis, I had started going back to school part-time to earn a Computer

Engineering degree, which, since none of my credits transferred, would be a long

haul. Then, a combination of the recession combined with dot.com explosions all

over the place, combined with being just a bit too specialized in my experience

in embedded software development, combined with major health problems that

popped up shortly after being laid off, well, that derailed that, and it wasn't

until quite a bit later I was able to get back in the field, using experience

from that last job in Indianapolis to transition into straight 3D CAD software

development, using the experience I had writing CNC/press brake control

software, which... such things are counted as automated manufacturing equipment,

which was a good tie-in to my formal education.

I have not stopped being educated: that is, the formal pieces of paper are just

a stepping stone to having a better idea of knowing how to research new things

(to me, and everyone) and expand my knowledge and experience. Last year, seeing

the opportunity the iPhone development could provide, I've been working towards

becoming proficient developing for it, and as a side-effect, went into

self-directed study of such things as game design, and I have many different

game ideas (software ones) I'd like to implement, including one I'm working

towards finding funding that would revolve around one particular fairly

complicated game (to develop, but to understand how to play would be easy, to

master it, hard) and sometime last year, when coming up with other more

immediately feasible ideas, woke up in the middle of the night to handle sleep

issues (TMI, won't explain, doesn't matter! I don't always sleep through the

night without waking) I found myself wide awake, mentally, and decided I might

as well use my insomnia to a useful purpose. Net result: within 2 month's time,

using the same game board pieces, I had devised the rules to 16 distinctly

different board games, though I suspect a couple of them aren't very

mathematically feasible for mere mortals to play, despite their apparent

simplicity for winning goals and rules. I bought quite a few books towards

developing games for computers, related to AI, etc. and have become fairly

well-read, as well as articles online, and when I got into the board game thing,

I also found some great articles online of which I've worked hard towards

incorporating a lot of the basic principles into my game designs.

Then I got laid off from Yahoo! in December last year, and decided to take

advantage of that to spend full-time working towards my goals, even though the

employment market is a bit weird: I'm in Microsoft's backyard, and *THEY* are

laying off people. I took a calculated risk based on observation of how people

react to some gizmo that'll soon be available to a lot of people to buy

(presuming I'm not being lied to, but I do know a lot of details about the

company involved, I did as much research as I can, and I've watched the product

go through various stages of development into the current idea) and formed my

own LLC, so yes, I technically qualify as the CEO, for what it's worth. Well,

that part hasn't exactly gone as anticipated: I'm no salesman of such things,

that's for sure! Nothing ventured, nothing gained: as a side-effect of trying

to sell those, and driving to Utah to find an area that wouldn't be interfered

with for the others involved trying to sell them, I ran into another opportunity

that seems more likely, and (to me) more practical in what it accomplishes, and

I've been working towards that, to no end of frustration due to getting things

setup properly, such as the online store, getting product developed and

produced, and now, getting the word out for selling it, etc. and while that has

been going on, I've also been developing unique card games, currently 8 in more

or less parallel development, with 3 of them partially play-tested with 2

players with the basic rules: I realize that perhaps not all of these ideas will

prove viable by being different enough and considered " fun " by enough people,

and I'll be doing more formalized play-testing to weed out the weaker

candidates. Oh, and one of the objectives, other than creating physical card

games, is to actually also have iPhone versions of such games as well, and part

of my theory of development is if you can't make it work without a computer, you

can't make it work with a computer, and also, it's much easier to change rules

on the fly in a physical game if something doesn't work, rather than try the

write/play/debug/test/rewrite bit of software, which you then need several

actual humans to play. Oh, also, writing AI may be very unpredictable for

quality when you haven't actually played the game itself without some actual

humans.

Now, here's my best understanding of what you've done for your training and how

motivated you have been to complete it:

You've got a high school education, and somehow worked yourself into a

quasi-tech job, and have hankerings to get into something that's truly more

technical, after 11 years in the field, and being horribly dissatisfied, and not

being able to make ends meet all the time, and no indication that you have

attempted completing a college course, or any certification course, in all that

time after high school, or before, and now you decide you want to create a

non-profit for those on the spectrum (which you recently learned you were on) to

help them achieve such educational goals, with no past history stated thus far

that you've ever attempted it for yourself.

Well, I'm here to say this about your question: I think that reality falls

somewhere between my situation and yours for the majority of the population, as

there are those that give absolutely no thought towards any further education at

all, ever, and there are those that have become professional students, never

escaping the event horizon of a college/university campus. Now, what you decide

to do depends on just how motivated, ambitious, and hard-working you are towards

the stated goals, and how well you can maintain the required dedication and

focus for such extended periods of time, with no assurances that you'll be happy

with the results if you should ever attain such certifications and educational

end points. I think it's safe to say this: if you're truly serious about this

whole goal of creating a non-profit that'll work, and not having a credibility

gap wider than the universe, you'll need to budget your time and resources and

give up most of those distracting projects, which will also likely mean

sacrificing time online in such things as this Yahoo! group, typing all these

posts up: interpret that how you will

If not I already spend enough time on projects.

> Thanks

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think the Autistic community is too apathetic. This is an example of a project that started small and grew. You might not want to get to the stage they are at, but you do have enough skills to motivate people to develop some skills and perhaps seek formal qualifications if they need them. Alternatively, you may find AS people or others who do have the skills you lack who would like to contribute some time towards your project.

http://specialisterne.com/

Advice part 3

First of all let me clear up a few things I was not looking get rich quick as a big "oppourtunist".

I have ran a drum circle here for seven years now I have not made one dime off of it.In contrast it has cost me several thousand dollars over the years but I have put smiles on the faces of many.

I have done fund a large fund raiser for a local non profit for abused youth.

I did a program for the mentally retarded(they really loved it)at another non profit.

I have never charged a penny and plan never to do so.

I simply have not seen many programs for AS that involves helping the individual instead of just the parents.

The reason I mentioned my work scenario is that I get tired of hearing about AS folks getting taken advantage of like I have been over the years at my job.

And also to let you know the director and officers are the highest paid ones in any org non profit or for profit as far as that goes. I was only planning on serving on the board(to keep the focus on AS) and doing low level training(which maybe I am not qualified to do even that).

Now that that is said the pc recycling has too many draw backs so leaving that out of the scenario. Do you feel the AS community is too apathetic for a training program of any sorts?If not I already spend enough time on projects.

Thanks

Chris

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[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... This is an example of a project that

started small and grew ... <snip> ...

http://specialisterne.com/ ... <snip> ... "

You are assuming many things about this business. As there is no information as

to when it was created but the copyright notice at the bottom of the page says

2008, one can safely assume the business is aproximately one year old.

Businesses typicall fail within the first 3 years therefore one cannot imply

that this business is successful until it has passed at least the 3 year mark.

Additionally, some of the website pages are marked " Coming soon " which is

usually an indication that the website is very new therefore it is safe to

assume that because the website is still in progress and " Coming soon " that the

website itself is considerably less than a year old. In this day and age of

technological connectivity requirements for business, a website is a must.

While the accolades for the owner date back to the Fall of 2004, the site does

not state that it secures full time work for Aspies. But it piggybacks in an

opportunistic manner on the stereotype of Aspies.

For the first time customers can get access to the abilities of people

with ASD - like attention to details, being systematic and persistent – by

working with SPECIALISTERNE. Our employees bring their job satisfaction into

tasks which more often fit designated specialists than the customer's employees.

This gives the customer better opportunity to move his internal resources to

tasks that fits better to generalists [end quote].

Trained monkeys dressed in suits and put on display.

It's as if this person has sideshow barked, " Step right up and hire my Aspies

because they are just so darned amusing to watch work! "

What's more, it is a commercial business that was started with a traditional

bank loan ergo it is not a non-profit as expressed a desire to establish.

What's more, it is a member of the Dansk Franchise Forening therefore the long

term intention is to franchise the idea. This definitely makes it the farthest

thing from a non-profit imaginable.

Raven

[Guest guest]

" Do you feel the AS community is too apathetic for a training program of any

sorts? "

I believe there are training programmes out there for those who desire such,

they are usually not AS specific to my knowledge, but if one has a strong enough

desire to learn something generally they do.

>

> First of all let me clear up a few things I was not looking get rich quick as

a big " oppourtunist " .

> I have ran a drum circle here for seven years now I have not made one dime

off of it.In contrast it has cost me several thousand dollars over the years but

I have put smiles on the faces of many.

> I have done fund a large fund raiser for a local non profit for abused

youth.

> I did a program for the mentally retarded(they really loved it)at another

non profit.

> I have never charged a penny and plan never to do so.

> I simply have not seen many programs for AS that involves helping the

individual instead of just the parents.

> The reason I mentioned my work scenario is that I get tired of hearing

about AS folks getting taken advantage of like I have been over the years at my

job.

> And also to let you know the director and officers are the highest paid

ones in any org non profit or for profit as far as that goes. I was only

planning on serving on the board(to keep the focus on AS) and doing low level

training(which maybe I am not qualified to do even that).

> Now that that is said the pc recycling has too many draw backs so leaving

that out of the scenario. Do you feel the AS community is too apathetic for a

training program of any sorts?If not I already spend enough time on projects.

> Thanks

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

>

actually a program for children to have hands on experience with PC's might get

a grant for a summer program. (especially if it was designed to get children

with learning difficulties familiar with the inner working of computers

(I know 1.) this is not at all what anyone said and I am just offering this

2. it would not " make " any money but with a grant you might get some small amt

of money that would not equal your time and effort

3. saying the words and having any idea how it would be able to happen are two

totally different things, so I am just suggesting something that sounds nice to

me.

If one wanted to help People with AS; I guess young or old and it was a hands on

experience that was NOT toxic to them that sounds like a nice fit for a visual

crowd. But I cannot see how money could be made from it.

Used PC's are a risk at best, and trash at least, only people with little to no

cash could buy one and in that case they would be even less likely to know how

to use them; That would equal a lot of customer complaints.

I agree with many that the only feasiable method is to expect no money from

this, as you do for drumming. Actually you might get a grant to offer drumming

over the summer for ASD youth.

Drumming is rythmic and repetive and might be good hand therapy for adults and

children with mobility issues.

If you want to focus on the individual with ASD and not their family I would go

with what you know, Drumming or some sort of easy robotics workshop for youth.

I keep saying summer because many school aged children that need a structued

program during the summer are left hanging, and have little to no stimulation.

While many adults with AS have been beaten down all their lives and may have

grown stagnant, children are still able to be boosted, if they can stilll

believe their may be a place for them, but that requires real training and time.

So an idea of how robotics work, or even how to use their hands (drumming) may

do more for a future than other ideas

Anyway those are my ramblings (also CONFIDENCE in ones ability or lack of it

makes one seem apathetic when maybe they are not)

[Guest guest]

I like that great idea it won't even take a non-profit to do that either I

have a facility to use at my disposal.

My church has agreed to allow use with no strings(such as I don't want anyone

to use it to preach to any one)so there

would be no money to change hands.

Thanks

Chris

> >

> actually a program for children to have hands on experience with PC's might

get a grant for a summer program. (especially if it was designed to get

children with learning difficulties familiar with the inner working of computers

>

> (I know 1.) this is not at all what anyone said and I am just offering this

> 2. it would not " make " any money but with a grant you might get some small amt

of money that would not equal your time and effort

> 3. saying the words and having any idea how it would be able to happen are two

totally different things, so I am just suggesting something that sounds nice to

me.

>

> If one wanted to help People with AS; I guess young or old and it was a hands

on experience that was NOT toxic to them that sounds like a nice fit for a

visual crowd. But I cannot see how money could be made from it.

>

> Used PC's are a risk at best, and trash at least, only people with little to

no cash could buy one and in that case they would be even less likely to know

how to use them; That would equal a lot of customer complaints.

>

> I agree with many that the only feasiable method is to expect no money from

this, as you do for drumming. Actually you might get a grant to offer drumming

over the summer for ASD youth.

>

> Drumming is rythmic and repetive and might be good hand therapy for adults and

children with mobility issues.

>

> If you want to focus on the individual with ASD and not their family I would

go with what you know, Drumming or some sort of easy robotics workshop for

youth.

>

> I keep saying summer because many school aged children that need a structued

program during the summer are left hanging, and have little to no stimulation.

>

> While many adults with AS have been beaten down all their lives and may have

grown stagnant, children are still able to be boosted, if they can stilll

believe their may be a place for them, but that requires real training and time.

So an idea of how robotics work, or even how to use their hands (drumming) may

do more for a future than other ideas

>

> Anyway those are my ramblings (also CONFIDENCE in ones ability or lack of it

makes one seem apathetic when maybe they are not)

>

[Guest guest]

" The way the post below reads to me is that you have some good points and also

some biases but you are not prepared to do anything to change the company

stereotypes. "

I think the company will almost certainly fail on its own.

Or it may thrive since the Aspies they employ are too dead-headed to stick up

for themselves.

If it fails, good. If the Aspies are taken advantage of, then I reckon they get

what they deserve.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... The way the post below reads to me is that

you have some good points and also some biases but you are not prepared to do

anything to change the company stereotypes ... <snip> ... "

You really haven't internalized correctly most of ' posts especially when

it comes to battling stereotypes, be they in a company or in society in general.

Raven

[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... actually a program for children to have hands on

experience with PC's might get a grant for a summer program. (especially if it

was designed to get children with learning difficulties familiar with the inner

working of computers ... <snip> ... "

A number of Learning Disability Associations in North America have invested

considerable time and effort as well as money into creating programs such as the

one you've described, mimi. would be, as they say, re-inventing the wheel

if he applied for a grant for programs that are already created by

long-established non-profit organizations.

Raven

[Guest guest]

gproberston wrote: " The success of the program vs established programs would

depend on how good his program is. In my experience, generic programs often

marginalize autistics because the staff have a limitted understanding of autism.

Sometimes the people most marginalized are those whose autistic characteristics

are not immediately obvious. Those people would probably experience improved

support and learning opportunities in an environment where there was someone

sensitive to their needs. "

Perhaps if you took the time to research the Learning Disabilities Associations

in North America, gprobertson, you would know that they were some of the first

non-profit organizations to establish computer camps for children with learning

disabilities AND for children with Autism.

They employ tutors who are knowledgeable with regards to ASDs which is why the

programs work well and have become established. They do not 'marginalize'

students with ASDs and/or LDs.

Raven

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " Is every program that delivers computer education for

children an autism specific program? "

gprobertson wrote: " Is every autism specific program a program of excellence or

do some claim excellence? "

gprobertson wrote: " Is it possible for a service to break new ground in

delivery style and child centred approach or are present services reaching

perfection? "

While it's possible, in the situation being discussed and with being the

one who might be offering said services, it is not likely.

can barely handle his own situation regarding employment; has no

experience running a successful business; has no experience managing employees

to the degree that he would need to manage them if he started up a business; has

no experience providing appropriate services for those on the Autism Spectrum

either as an employer or as a service provider; and more.

You of all people should know that based on what has posted about his

business model that he is ill-equipped to take mimi up on her business

suggestion.

Raven

[Guest guest]

A drumming group is more of a group activity with no real long-lasting structure

of any import, and there's no financial or life-altering events on the line, and

it is also not a way to support anyone or get anything significant accomplished

other than getting people to feel good and in sync with others for a very

limited time.

However, starting small is one thing, but he's not remotely mastered the

" starting small " of managing his own finances and that of his family, of which

he is responsible for: how it would seem reasonable that someone so unambitious

as to not apparently have seriously attempted any post-high school education (I

don't recall even any attempts being made) and all that after being in the field

he's in for 11 years, defies any logic. Before you can ever have a chance in

hell of thinking you can lead others, first you must be able to lead yourself

through at least the motions of doing things, or else all your leading has as

practical of an effect as the lead lemming guiding all the others directly into

the sea. Anyone not ambitious and motivated enough to at least make a serious

attempt (where serious attempt=self-education as well as appropriate formal

education, preferably) to improve themselves such that they can just pay their

own bills and that of the family they are responsible for, is nobody I would

have any business with involving in a business environment, non-profit or

otherwise, because the track record is completely wrong for anyone that you need

to run an actual business: someone that thinks and acts to accomplish even the

big details, never mind all the smaller details that are required to accomplish

the bigger ones. No sane/wise investor would ever consider handing over control

of a startup or any other business that was already a going concern to someone

with his history, and frankly, a lot of employers won't touch someone with his

background for the same reason, even if he's not trying to get into a highly

responsible position, because his history demonstrates an innate inability to

adapt to change or even bother trying, despite professing interest in working in

a professional field that's at least as broad as medicine and as fickle as

fashion, and advancing faster than either one. The most logical conclusion that

can be drawn is that until he's demonstrated he's willing and able to work under

the direction of someone else while advancing his own objectives by progressing

in experience both professional and educational attainment, having him attempt

to startup and run a business is a prospect that's made of fail.

A spoken/unspoken thought casually made may be no more than an idle wish:

more than one thought about something may be qualified as a dream:

beyond the dream stage, actual work is required: anything not written down

probably doesn't even go as far as a plan, and if you fail to plan, you plan to

fail:

a plan with no measurable objectives is insane and vague, and little more than a

dream, as you won't be able to measure against results and answer the question,

" Are we there yet? "

He has not done much more than make an idle wish, slightly less than a dream: to

accomplish anything of value, he'll need to put in a lot more actual work,

something he has not demonstrated a willingness or ability to do. For the sake

of his family, he needs to start at ground level in just getting himself

educated sufficiently towards actually advancing: if he's complaining that his

employer is being unfair and not advancing him, I ask everyone: why on earth

should an employer advance someone that takes no real effort to advance

themselves?

" Is it possible for a service to break new ground in

> delivery style and child centred approach or are present services reaching

> perfection? "

>

> While it's possible, in the situation being discussed and with being the

> one who might be offering said services, it is not likely.

>

> can barely handle his own situation regarding employment; has no

> experience running a successful business; has no experience managing employees

> to the degree that he would need to manage them if he started up a business;

has

> no experience providing appropriate services for those on the Autism Spectrum

> either as an employer or as a service provider; and more.

>

> You of all people should know that based on what has posted about his

> business model that he is ill-equipped to take mimi up on her business

> suggestion.

>

> Raven

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards

founded

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>

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[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... He has found out some information and the

experience of having a go would do him good. It would also be a good idea to

start small. I am always loathe to put people off trying out their dreams,

especially as often when they experience something they start to understand what

they have to do to fulfil the dream ... <snip> ... "

Has has proven that he has not been successful in the business world up until

this point. Now you want him to put children at risk by 'trying his hand' at

something that is a 'dream' of his?

Fact of the matter is, mimi made the suggestion not Chris. And based on what

posted previously, mimi's suggestion is not a sound business model for

or for the children who might sign up for the computer camp.

In fact, it endangers the children and that is a very serious concern.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I think constructive advice is good but

knocking something a person wants to try, no matter how ambitious is

discouraging ... <snip> ... "

Something that many NTs do not get is that constructive advice does NOT always

look or feel like a pat on the back. Sometimes constructive advice is the

advice that points out the pitfalls and shortcomings of the plan which allows

the individual to back out of an ill-conceived concept.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... Even if the dream is very ambitious, the

experience of trying can lead to achievable modifications. Plus, we just do not

know. He might be a genius with children. He has nothing to lose and

everything to gain, even if it is as simple as the knowledge that he gave it the

best that he could do at the time ... <snip> ... "

I find it gobsmackingly appalling that you would be fine with putting children,

especially those on the spectrum, in what could prove to be a dangerous

situation for the children.

If one is going to work with children, the expectations for success are much

higher than if this was about creating something that only dealt with adults who

are able to make decisions for themselves.

He might be a genius with children but then again, there's just as much chances

that he's the antithesis of a genius with children thereby causing far more harm

than good.

Children should not be used as guinea pigs for an adult who isn't certain what

he wants to do with his life.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... Hearing that he already has a successful

drumming group makes me think that he has more of a chance than someone who has

never run a group activity before ... <snip> ... "

Running a successful drumming group on a volunteer basis is NOTHING like running

a computer camp for special needs children and charging money for doing so.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Hear, hear, strict! <Raven applauds strict's excellent post>

Raven

>

> A drumming group is more of a group activity with no real long-lasting

structure of any import, and there's no financial or life-altering events on the

line, and it is also not a way to support anyone or get anything significant

accomplished other than getting people to feel good and in sync with others for

a very limited time.

>

> However, starting small is one thing, but he's not remotely mastered the

" starting small " of managing his own finances and that of his family, of which

he is responsible for: how it would seem reasonable that someone so unambitious

as to not apparently have seriously attempted any post-high school education (I

don't recall even any attempts being made) and all that after being in the field

he's in for 11 years, defies any logic. Before you can ever have a chance in

hell of thinking you can lead others, first you must be able to lead yourself

through at least the motions of doing things, or else all your leading has as

practical of an effect as the lead lemming guiding all the others directly into

the sea. Anyone not ambitious and motivated enough to at least make a serious

attempt (where serious attempt=self-education as well as appropriate formal

education, preferably) to improve themselves such that they can just pay their

own bills and that of the family they are responsible for, is nobody I would

have any business with involving in a business environment, non-profit or

otherwise, because the track record is completely wrong for anyone that you need

to run an actual business: someone that thinks and acts to accomplish even the

big details, never mind all the smaller details that are required to accomplish

the bigger ones. No sane/wise investor would ever consider handing over control

of a startup or any other business that was already a going concern to someone

with his history, and frankly, a lot of employers won't touch someone with his

background for the same reason, even if he's not trying to get into a highly

responsible position, because his history demonstrates an innate inability to

adapt to change or even bother trying, despite professing interest in working in

a professional field that's at least as broad as medicine and as fickle as

fashion, and advancing faster than either one. The most logical conclusion that

can be drawn is that until he's demonstrated he's willing and able to work under

the direction of someone else while advancing his own objectives by progressing

in experience both professional and educational attainment, having him attempt

to startup and run a business is a prospect that's made of fail.

>

> A spoken/unspoken thought casually made may be no more than an idle wish:

> more than one thought about something may be qualified as a dream:

> beyond the dream stage, actual work is required: anything not written down

probably doesn't even go as far as a plan, and if you fail to plan, you plan to

fail:

> a plan with no measurable objectives is insane and vague, and little more than

a dream, as you won't be able to measure against results and answer the

question, " Are we there yet? "

>

> He has not done much more than make an idle wish, slightly less than a dream:

to accomplish anything of value, he'll need to put in a lot more actual work,

something he has not demonstrated a willingness or ability to do. For the sake

of his family, he needs to start at ground level in just getting himself

educated sufficiently towards actually advancing: if he's complaining that his

employer is being unfair and not advancing him, I ask everyone: why on earth

should an employer advance someone that takes no real effort to advance

themselves?

[Guest guest]

> Fact of the matter is, mimi made the suggestion not Chris. And based on what

posted previously, mimi's suggestion is not a sound business model for

or for the children who might sign up for the computer camp.

>

> In fact, it endangers the children and that is a very serious concern.

>

> Raven

>

yes I was in fact thinking something more benign (like drumming) and yes just

for feel good purposes for a short while unless it caught on and everyone

enjoyed it and even that would require more than one person to manage. (as

would anything involving children, also grants are not awarded to anyone (I have

heard it is a difficult process with many steps and checks, so that in a way

would take care of itself) If the govt saw fit to give money they usually ask

for results and a follow-up

I know in this area even respected groups have a hard time holding on to grants

and that is with an office and staff, and checking etc.

anyway my suggestion was just to do something nice that would give nothing more

than good feelings for any involved

[Guest guest]

> >

> > A drumming group is more of a group activity with no real long-lasting

structure of any import, and there's no financial or life-altering events on the

line, and it is also not a way to support anyone or get anything significant

accomplished other than getting people to feel good and in sync with others for

a very limited time.

> >

I also liked this post, and the tone was very nice too. I wasn't really

suggesting any more than this

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... So nobody has to get it right straight off

.... <snip> ... "

All the more reason NOT to use children as the trial grounds to find out how

often one has to do something 'wrong' before getting it 'right.'

Why should children become an 'entrepreneur's' Ground Zero?

Raven

[Guest guest]

actually drum circles go further than feeling good about one's self

Remo has some good info on their website.

http://remo.com/portal/pages/hr/benefits/index.html

And as far as doing rythm based events with children I have experiance in that

regard and have seven years of experiance with drum circles.

I have even met in person and have had several dialogs with the man who started

the movement his name is Arthur Hull you should google him (you might learn

something).

as far as insurance the facillity I have free use of already has event

liability insurance that is quite extensive.

As far as charging for drum circle I will be charging twice my normal rate.

which if you would have read prior postings you would already know is nothing.

thanks for those who understand

Chris

>

> > Fact of the matter is, mimi made the suggestion not Chris. And based on

what posted previously, mimi's suggestion is not a sound business model

for or for the children who might sign up for the computer camp.

> >

> > In fact, it endangers the children and that is a very serious concern.

> >

> > Raven

> >

> yes I was in fact thinking something more benign (like drumming) and yes just

for feel good purposes for a short while unless it caught on and everyone

enjoyed it and even that would require more than one person to manage. (as

would anything involving children, also grants are not awarded to anyone (I have

heard it is a difficult process with many steps and checks, so that in a way

would take care of itself) If the govt saw fit to give money they usually ask

for results and a follow-up

>

> I know in this area even respected groups have a hard time holding on to

grants and that is with an office and staff, and checking etc.

>

> anyway my suggestion was just to do something nice that would give nothing

more than good feelings for any involved

>

[Guest guest]

>

> actually drum circles go further than feeling good about one's self

> Remo has some good info on their website.

>

> http://remo.com/portal/pages/hr/benefits/index.html

>

Well if that is the case, and you can do this at your church, and you already

have experience, then this should be the best bet

[Guest guest]

Great thanks

chris

> >

> > actually drum circles go further than feeling good about one's self

> > Remo has some good info on their website.

> >

> > http://remo.com/portal/pages/hr/benefits/index.html

> >

> Well if that is the case, and you can do this at your church, and you already

have experience, then this should be the best bet

>

[Guest guest]

Except for the exercise component (of which I suspect most don't get THAT much!)

drumming circles don't help you feel any better than attending a church,

depending on your religious belief, and the church, and the particular people in

that church. There are many other ways to feel good about yourself as well,

that don't happen to require whatever investment is required of time/money, and

let's face it: there's money, somehow, in drum circles, because it's far easier

for most people to get something already made rather than go and build it

themselves.

That site is preaching to the choir, of which you're clearly a member: it

clearly is a commercial site What leads me to say that? Well, if they had

no real concern for money, why would they be trying so hard to convince you of

all the benefits by publishing all the studies to support it, instead of just

saying, " hey, we just want to have fun, and we need more people to drum with! "

Perhaps it started out all in good fun, but it became apparent that there was

something that they could make money off of, in the finest example of

capitalism, and that's how things have progressed

> >

> > > Fact of the matter is, mimi made the suggestion not Chris. And based on

what posted previously, mimi's suggestion is not a sound business model

for or for the children who might sign up for the computer camp.

> > >

> > > In fact, it endangers the children and that is a very serious concern.

> > >

> > > Raven

> > >

> > yes I was in fact thinking something more benign (like drumming) and yes

just for feel good purposes for a short while unless it caught on and everyone

enjoyed it and even that would require more than one person to manage. (as

would anything involving children, also grants are not awarded to anyone (I have

heard it is a difficult process with many steps and checks, so that in a way

would take care of itself) If the govt saw fit to give money they usually ask

for results and a follow-up

> >

> > I know in this area even respected groups have a hard time holding on to

grants and that is with an office and staff, and checking etc.

> >

> > anyway my suggestion was just to do something nice that would give nothing

more than good feelings for any involved

> >

>

[Guest guest]

wrote: " ... <snip> ... event liability insurance that is quite extensive

.... <snip> ... "

If you knew how businesses operate, you would know that event liability

insurance at the location is not enough to cover a lawsuit that may be brought

against YOU.

At this point, I would strongly suggest that you take a two-year (minimum)

diploma course in business to better understand what is required when operating

a commercial endeavour.

Raven

[Guest guest]

-- In FAMSecretSociety , gprobertson@... wrote:

"Up until that stage of actually enrolling children, it really does not matter how many tries he has to get it up and running."

The past couple of days I have stayed out of the argument because I have been busy, but I have a little time now, so I thought I would throw in five comments...

1) While I commend for trying to conceptualize a program that may be of some advantage to Aspies...

2) I really think he needs to do a lot more research into how to make this work, and he needs to develop some more technical skills himself, because...

3) Otherwise he is going to get himself and the Aspies he is proposing to teach into a world of hurt.

4a) When trimming trees, one of the things tree surgeons first remove are what are called "multiple leaders" or "suckers". These are fast growing shoots that tend to grow off the main branches. Though they grow quicker than the main branches (often growing very big, very fast, as opposed to moderately big over an extended period of years). They are often weaker, and serve only to drain the tree of energy that it could be using elsewhere.

4b) There are too many charities that are like "multiple leaders" and "suckers" on trees.

4c) At its most basic level, I had a problem with Chris's proposal because he didn't even know enough about Aspies to know whether or not the program he was creating would have been of assistance to Aspies.

4d) Had he done the research, he would not have had to ask us.

4e) And when said that an ulterior motive for establishing this charity was to make money for himself, it became clear that he was intending to be a "multiple leader" or "sucker" on the autism tree.

4f) If Chris's motives were truly altruistic, profit would not be a consideration. Or else he would go to work for an existing charity which already provides the services he is intending to offer -regardless of what that charity is proposing to pay him.

5) What I am seeing with is him reading all of our posts and seeing a bunch of dissenters, and then two supporters, and him dismissing the naysayers and agreeing with the supporters.

If he wants objectivity, then he needs to take all views into consideration. By dismissing the constructive criticism especially, he is endangering the project he hopes to embark on.

Thus I cannot see why anone would want to involve themselves with something and someone so reckless.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Mimi said:

"Well if that is the case, and you can do this at your church, and you already have experience, then this should be the best bet"

replied:

"Great thanks"

says:

I think what you are trying to do here is get sap out of a maple tree so you can make a profit off of the syrup. By doing so, you are weakening the tree, especially if you tap too much syrup.

In other words, legitimate and well-established charities have a hard enough time keeping themselves operational. Many are "non profit" in the most literal sense. They don't know if they will be here next year. But they do good work.

Your main purpose appears to be making a salary for yourself, and your secondary goal seems to be training up Aspies.

As Strict said, you have a minimum amount of training yourself, which makes you unqualified for the training aspect of this task, and it also makes you unqualified for the supervisory role since you will have no idea what any teachers you employ are teaching, or whether or not they are teaching correctly.

You also have no sense of the basics of operating a business or the applicable laws associated with it. You have no sense of OSHA work requirements, safety regs, health regs, etc. I very much doubt that OSHA would approve of a church basement for the mass-disassembly of computers given the toxic elements likely to be thrown here there and everywhere and also released into the atmosphere.

Factor into the equation that you may have some low-functioning autistics messing with this dangerous equipment and you have a nightmare.

-What if one of them forgets to unplug the machine while they are messing around with it?

-What if they get a charge from the battery somehow even IF the machine is unplugged?

-What if they drop a monitor and it explodes?

-What if the CPU explodes?

-What if too many computers and monitors are plugged in at once and the fuse blows?

-What if and of these people cut their fingers on the metal inside the machines?

-What if they burn their fingers with a soldering iron?

-What if they stick their fingers in their mouths after handling lead-based solder and other toxic chemicals?

-What if they put a tool or part in their mouth and swallow it accidentally?

Do you have an insurance plan that covers these things? The church's insurance is designed to protect THEM from liability. Not YOU.

If just one person sues you for something that goes wrong -whether it IS your fault or not - your entire savings and house stand to get wiped out just from legal bills. And even if the non-profit itself is a separate entity that can be sued instead of YOU, this does not prevent a civil suit against you specifically.

You do not seem to understand any of these things on the most basic level despite your supposed research into non-profits, and frankly, I resent the fact that you see non-profit organizations as cow with a full udder that's yours to milk.

If you want to help the rest of Aspie world, you ought to ask them specifically what they need and then build up a non-profit that gives it to them. But chances are you HAVE asked them that and discovered it was too much work. Otherwise you would be doing it already.

Administrator