Re: Re: Advice part 3

[Guest guest]

One of my internet friends was involved in their training programs in the early days. That was 4-5 years ago. He left to take up full time work with one of the companies which employed him. The website is new. The old one was plainer.

It's as if this person has sideshow barked, "Step right up and hire my Aspies

because they are just so darned amusing to watch work!"

Um. Perhaps you could come up with guidelines for people who wish to support autistics although I suspect that if people are not permitted to use a common autistic ability in computers as a focus for training, there are a lot of people who will not be able to find their niches in life. Do you think he should cater to everyone in all endeavours of life so that he does not get accused of stereotyping? What would he have to do to ensure that his clients are not accused of being performing monkeys?

If you want to know more about the hours that people work, perhaps you could contact Thorkil Sonne and ask. I heard him talk at the World Autism Congress in 2006. Someone asked a question about hours people worked and he said that depended on their area of specialization, the availability of work in that area and the individual's capacity for work, but some have had full time work. Hopefully that has improved but I20still think that the opportunity to train, free of charge and the opportunity to build a good cv is going to be valuable to a number of Autistics.

Perhaps you could improve the business and make it more autism friendly by offering your perspective as a guide to respectful employment. I would also appreciate this information because I am considering starting up my own business which trains and puts autistics in contact with prospective employers (in the field of education support, not computers). I doubt that many would work full time until their practices were established though. This is true for many people establishing themselves. I would be devastated to find that I was employing people as performing monkeys so I would appreciate knowing what autistics generally consider to be acceptable practice.

It's as if this person has sideshow barked, "Step right up and hire my Aspies

because they are just so darned amusing to watch work!"

Actually he is asking people to employ autistics because they are good at what they are doing. I think it is quite insulting to the consultants to infer that people employ them because they are amusing and I do not think that many businesses would waste their profits on employing people whose goal is to have people watch them being amusing unless it was an entertainment industry position.

I also think that if it was compulsory for autistic job seekers to work in a field

relating to computer technology, that would be stereotyping. If people with ability in that area choose to work in that area, I don't see a problem. I know that the website reads in a less than respectful way at times. I have been assured by Danes that this is a translation problem and possibly a cultural one just as the term "mentally retarded" is often accepted in many countries, but in my own, it is seen as a derogatory term and most people are horrified if someone uses it. The solution here is for the company to be enlightened by Autistics who have a passion for presenting information in an ideologically correct manner.

"What's more, it is a commercial business that was started with a traditional

bank loan ergo it is not a non-profit as expressed a desire to establish. "

He mortgaged his house to get the loan. The profits are put back into the foundation. Franchising is a manageable way of handling expansion and will bring more profits to the foundation. If anyone has evidence to suggest that he is not following the constitutional protocols of the foundation and is pocketing the profits beyond reasonable reimbursement for work and expenses, I suggest that they contact the police in Denmark. There are loads of Danes involved in IRC chat and I am sure most would help if they knew a crime was being committed.

Re: Advice part 3

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... This is an example of a project that started small and grew ... <snip> ... http://specialisterne.com/ ... <snip> ... "

You are assuming many things about this business. As there is no information as to when it was created but the copyright notice at the bottom of the page says 2008, one can safely assume the business is aproximately one year old.

Businesses typicall fail within the first 3 years therefore one cannot imply that this business is successful until it has passed at least the 3 year mark.

Additionally, some of the website pages are marked "Coming soon" which is usually an indication that the website is very new therefore it is safe to assume that because the website is still in progress and "Coming soon" that the website itself is considerably less than a year old. In this day and age of technological connectivity requirements for business, a website is a must.

While the accolades for the owner date back to the Fall of 2004, the site does not state that it secures full time work for Aspies. But it piggybacks=2

0in an opportunistic manner on the stereotype of Aspies.

For the first time customers can get access to the abilities of people with ASD - like attention to details, being systematic and persistent – by working with SPECIALISTERNE. Our employees bring their job satisfaction into tasks which more often fit designated specialists than the customer's employees. This gives the customer better opportunity to move his internal resources to tasks that fits better to generalists [end quote].

Trained monkeys dressed in suits and put on display. It's as if this person has sideshow barked, "Step right up and hire my Aspies because they are just so darned amusing to watch work!"

What's more, it is a commercial business that was started with a traditional bank loan ergo it is not a non-profit as expressed a desire to establish. What's more, it is a member of the Dansk Franchise Forening therefore the long term intention is to franchise the idea. This definitely makes it the farthest thing from a non-profit imaginable.

Raven

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[Guest guest]

The way the post below reads to me is that you have some good points and also some biases but you are not prepared to do anything to change the company stereotypes.

The other thing is that I have a view which may be idiotic but I think that nothing is perfect but we can find combinations of good and bad in most things. The thing is to take inspiration from the good and use the bad to improve.

----Original Message-----

From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >

To: FAMSecretSociety

Sent: Mon, 4 May 2009 7:00 am

Subject: Re: Advice part 3

"Um. Perhaps you could come up with guidelines for people who wish to support autistics although I suspect that if people are not permitted to use a common autistic ability in computers as a focus for training, there are a lot of people who will not be able to find their niches in life."

It's an incorrect perception that one common ability autistics have is to use computers, program them, etc.

My skills are writing fiction and painting (acrylic on canvas - not latex on walls ).

"Do you think he should cater to everyone in all endeavours of life so that he does not get accused of stereotyping? What would he have to do to ensure that his clients are not accused of being performing monkeys?"

Here is the way the website reads to me: Employ these negros for your basketball teams and your music bands, because everyone knows white folks can't jump and black people have rhythm. And if they are too dysfunctional to do either one of these things, they can stuff envelopes for you.

Now why would I want to use a service that demeans me in such a fashion? Any Aspie who has any self respect would tell these people to their faces that if they HAVE been in the business for 4 or 5 yefars, they ought to know by now what Aspies are, what they are capable of, and how to treat them.

Unless of course the Aspies are encountering are indeed the lazy Aspies that I frequently encounter, in which case the distasteful and demeaning way he portrays these Aspies is as accurate as a compass needle when it's drawn to the source of strong magnetism.

"I think that the opportunity to train, free of charge and the opportunity to build a good cv is going to be valuable to a number of Autistics."

It is. But then, they don't need to go his place to get any training. they can go to school or find jobs for themselves too. But the Aspies who go to him figure that perhaps they will get automatic accommodation out of it, something the firm banks on so they can exploit to maximum effect the people who go there.

"Perhaps you could improve the business and make it more autism friendly by offering your perspective as a guide to respectful employment."

It's simple. Assume the Aspie is willing to actually make the effort to do whatever job they are hired for to the best of their ability, and that if they fail in this regard then fire them, and be sure to give them poor recommendations if any future employer inquires after them.

That's what I personally would want. I was hired for a number of jobs in a number of professions. I did the work. I got good reviews, and good recommendations.

"I would also appreciate this information because I am considering starting up my own business which trains and puts autistics in contact with prospective employers (in the field of education support, not computers)."

Set it up like any temp agency. You assess them for skills. If they lack them, or refuse to ghet them, or refuse to learn on the job, don't hire them or offer them for hire. End of story.

"I would be devastated to find that I was employing people as performing monkeys so I would appreciate knowing what autistics generally consider to be acceptable practice. "

What I consider an acceptable practice is that when I go in to apply for a job, that I am assessed on my skills and abilities as demonstrated on my resume and school transcripts.

I expect that if I have had poor work performance in one area or another, or that if I have received poor grades in school, that this will be weighed against me appropriately.

I expect that IF I say "I need these accommodations met if I am to work for you" that the employer will either tell me upfront that they can or cannot meet those needs so that I do not have to waste time working for an employer that will in some way prevent me from working to my full potential.

"Actually he is asking people to employ autistics because they are good at what they are doing. I think it is quite insulting to the consultants to infer that people employ them because they are amusing and I do not think that many businesses would waste their profits on employing people whose goal is to have people watch them being amusing unless it was an entertainment industry position."

I think he is employing autistics in a niche area because out of all the different potential professions Aspies could be involved in, that select niche market is the one he stands to profit the most by. As for whom businesses employ and why, I can tell you that a major Chicagoland bank which employs 10,000 workers that I used to work for employed three people with Down's Syndrome to stuff bank statements into envelopes and seal them. They were by and large inefficient workers who stuffed half as many statements as the paid statement stuffers could stuff, but the bank employed them so that they could trumpet the fact that they were an "Equal opportunity employer" to their customers, citing these three people as examples in their endeavor.

When the economy began to tank, they fired those three workers because they were too inefficient to justify employing, even though they were only making minimum wage with no benefits with the only added expense being to pay for the transportation too and from the facility where these kids were left to rot by their parents.

So I think that if you are a business which wants to advertise the fact that they are using "retards" at their place of employment, the venture which you've cited is the ideal place to find such "retards."

"I know that the website reads in a less than respectful way at times."

Yet it remains unchanged, and if you notice, they have a list on there of where their Aspies have been employed. You'd think if any of those Aspies had any dignity, they would have told the creators of the website how to revise it to make it less offensive, but then maybe those Aspies have little or no sense of self worth, or perhaps they are just apathetic about the whole issue.

"I have been assured by Danes that this is a translation problem and possibly a cultural one just as the term "mentally retarded" is often accepted in many countries, but in my own, it is seen as a derogatory term and most people are horrified if someone uses it. The solution here is for the company to be enlightened by Autistics who have a passion for presenting information in an ideologically correct manner."

1) It's not a cultural or translation problem. I once dated a woman who could speak their language. They have political correctness in Europe too you know.

2) The solution is indeed for the company to be enlightened by Autistics who have a passion for presenting information in an ideologically correct manner. But obviously we have none of those sorts of people here, otherwise one of 385 members here would do it.

As stated in previous posts...there are certain people who are very busy and have already got their hands deep into autistic charitable works, me included.

I am chosing not to correct this company's website because if they are too stupid to realize the gross offense they have caused autistics, then they should not be employing them. So I want them to fail. I will not assist in their success by redesigning their website for them.

"He mortgaged his house to get the loan."

Cry me a river. It's what just about everyone does when they start their own business.

"The profits are put back into the foundation."

Yes, AFTER the loan payments are made and he collects his salary.

"Franchising is a manageable way of handling expansion and will bring more profits to the foundation. If anyone has evidence to suggest that he is not following the constitutional protocols of the foundation and is pocketing the profits beyond reasonable reimbursement for work and expenses, I suggest that they contact the police in Denmark. There are loads of Danes involved in IRC chat and I am sure most would help if they knew a crime was being committed."

He is committing no legal crime. Merely profiteering, much the same way that business people in Germany profiteered off of using Jewsish slaves during the war to make their businesses profitable.

Administrator

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[Guest guest]

hi;

Please make certain that such a program is covered by liability insurance.

(in case a student is injured OR the facility is damaged)

Some people who I know teach at 'computer camps' for students in the summer,

these consist of 10 half days of 'hands on experience' with hardware and software,

one of the students tried to 'zap' a buddy by sticking a static strap in an electrical outlet, another student tinkered with the inner works of a computer when it was plugged in, and 'blew it up" (the computer was supposed to be unplugged)

Fortunately no one was injured in either instnace.

Not trying to discourage in what is a worthwhile project, just metioning that youth are unpredictable and stuff can go wrong.

renaissanzelady

"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)

I like that great idea it won't even take a non-profit to do that either I have a facility to use at my disposal.My church has agreed to allow use with no strings(such as I don't want anyone to use it to preach to any one)so therewould be no money to change hands.Thanks Chris> >> actually a program for children to have hands on experience with PC's might get a grant for a summer program. (especially if it was designed to get children with learning difficulties familiar with the inner working of computers> > (I know 1.) this is not at all what anyone

said and I am just offering this> 2. it would not "make" any money but with a grant you might get some small amt of money that would not equal your time and effort> 3. saying the words and having any idea how it would be able to happen are two totally different things, so I am just suggesting something that sounds nice to me.> > If one wanted to help People with AS; I guess young or old and it was a hands on experience that was NOT toxic to them that sounds like a nice fit for a visual crowd. But I cannot see how money could be made from it.> > Used PC's are a risk at best, and trash at least, only people with little to no cash could buy one and in that case they would be even less likely to know how to use them; That would equal a lot of customer complaints. > > I agree with many that the only feasiable method is to expect no money from this, as you do for drumming. Actually you might get a grant

to offer drumming over the summer for ASD youth.> > Drumming is rythmic and repetive and might be good hand therapy for adults and children with mobility issues.> > If you want to focus on the individual with ASD and not their family I would go with what you know, Drumming or some sort of easy robotics workshop for youth.> > I keep saying summer because many school aged children that need a structued program during the summer are left hanging, and have little to no stimulation.> > While many adults with AS have been beaten down all their lives and may have grown stagnant, children are still able to be boosted, if they can stilll believe their may be a place for them, but that requires real training and time. So an idea of how robotics work, or even how to use their hands (drumming) may do more for a future than other ideas> > Anyway those are my ramblings (also CONFIDENCE in ones

ability or lack of it makes one seem apathetic when maybe they are not)>

The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!

[Guest guest]

The success of the program vs established programs would depend on how good his program is. In my experience, generic programs often marginalize autistics because the staff have a limitted understanding of autism. Sometimes the people most marginalized are those whose autistic characteristics are not immediately obvious. Those people would probably experience improved support and learning opportunities in an environment where there was someone sensitive to their needs.

Re: Advice part 3

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... actually a program for children to have hands on experience with PC's might get a grant for a summer program. (especially if it was designed to get children with learning difficulties familiar with the inner working of computers ... <snip> ... "

A number of Learning Disability Associations in North America have invested considerable time and effort as well as money into creating programs such as the one you've described, mimi. would be, as they say, re-inventing the wheel if he applied for a grant for programs that are already created by long-established non-profit organizations.

Raven

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[Guest guest]

Is every program that delivers computer education for children an autism specific program?

Is every autism specific program a program of excellence or do some claim excellence?

Is it possible for a service to break new ground in delivery style and child centred approach or are present services reaching perfection?

Re: Advice part 3

gproberston wrote: "The success of the program vs established programs would depend on how good his program is. In my experience, generic programs often marginalize autistics because the staff have a limitted understanding of autism. Sometimes the people most marginalized are those whose autistic characteristics are not immediately obvious. Those people would probably experience improved support and learning opportunities in an environment where there was someone sensitive to their needs."

Perhaps if you took the time to research the Learning Disabilities Associations in North America, gprobertson, you would know that they were some of the first non-profit organizations to establish computer camps for children with learning disabilities AND for children with Autism.

They employ tutors who are knowledgeable with regards to ASDs which is why the programs work well and have become established. They do not 'marginalize' students with ASDs and/or LDs.

Raven

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I think it sounds like an OK place for him to try. He has found out some information and the experience of having a go would do him good. It would also be a good idea to start small. I am always loathe to put people off trying out their dreams, especially as often when they experience something they start to understand what they have to do to fulfil the dream. I think constructive advice is good but knocking something a person wants to try, no matter how ambitious is discouraging. Even if the dream is very ambitious, the experience of trying can lead to achievable modifications. Plus, we just do not know. He might be a genius with children. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain, even if it is as simple as the knowledge that he gave it the best that he could do at the time. His approach is not what I would do, but there are many pathways to success and sometimes the unconventional succeed where the rules people do not. Sometimes the unconventional come to see the reason for certain practices and are then more motivated to take on advice. Hearing that he already has a successful drumming group makes me think that he has more of a chance than someone who has never run a group activity before, but I really, really hope he takes out some kind of appropriate insurance.

Re: Advice part 3

gprobertson wrote: "Is every program that delivers computer education for children an autism specific program?"

gprobertson wrote: "Is every autism specific program a program of excellence or do some claim excellence?"

gprobertson wrote: "Is it possible for a service to break new ground in delivery style and child centred approach or are present services reaching perfection?"

While it's possible, in the situation being discussed and with being the one who might be offering said services, it is not likely.

can barely handle his own situation regarding employment; has no experience running a successful business; has no experience managing employees to the degree that he would need to manage them if he started up a business; has no experience providing appropriate services for those on the Autism Spectrum either as an employer or as a service provider; and more.

You of all people should know that based on what has posted about his business model that he is ill-equipped to take mimi up on her business suggestion.

Raven

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I disagree that the drumming group will not get "anything significant accomplished". A group like that is a starting point for people who may have limited opportunities to experience group dynamics. It is a starting point for people who need to learn about commitment, being on time, working as a team, collective responsibilities and a host of skills which in a more sophisticated form can be transferred into the workplace. Success at something they enjoy is a starting point for improving confidence and self esteem. I think it is an excellent pathway towards participation in the workforce for some and as a social leisure activity for others.

"Before you can ever have a chance in hell of thinking you can lead others, first you must be able to lead yourself "

For sure, that is the usual case, but history is full of people who do amazing things because of commitment and/or passion. The important thing is to try and find out what it is that you can do if you put your mind to. If you fail, you know a bit more about what you need to do if you try again.

I like Edison's thinking. He said:

Being busy does not always mean real work. The object of all work is production or accomplishment and to either of these ends there must be forethought, system, planning, intelligence, and honest purpose, as well as perspiration. Seeming to do is not doing.

but he also said:

Discontent is the first necessity of progress.

and

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

So nobody has to get it right straight off. The thing to do is to keep on trying and for some people that might be to develop the persistence to keep on trying to dream, plan and pay attention to detail as well as to sustain a commitment.

Re: Advice part 3

A drumming group is more of a group activity with no real long-lasting structure of any import, and there's no financial or life-altering events on the line, and it is also not a way to support anyone or get anything significant accomplished other than getting people to feel good and in sync with others for a very limited time.

However, starting small is one thing, but he's not remotely mastered the "starting small" of managing his own finances and that of his family, of which he is responsible for: how it would seem reasonable that someone so unambitious as to not apparently have seriously attempted any post-high school education (I don't recall even any attempts being made) and all that after being in the field he's in for 11 years, defies any logic. Before you can ever have a chance in hell of thinking you can lead others, first you must be able to lead yourself through at least the motions of doing things, or else all your leading has as practical of an effect as the lead lemming guiding all the others directly into the sea. Anyone not ambitious and motivated enough to at least make a serious attempt (where serious attempt=self-education as well as appropriate formal education, preferably) to improve themselves such that they can just pay their own bills and that of the family they are responsible for, is nobody I would have any business with involving in a business environment, non-profit or otherwise, because the track record is completely wrong for anyone that you need to run an actual business: someone that thinks and acts to accomplish even the big details, never mind all the smaller details that are required to accomplish the bigger ones. No sane/wise investor would ever consider handing over control of a startup or any other business that was already a going concern to someone with his history, and frankly, a lot of employers won't touch someone with his background for the same reason, even if he's not trying to get into a highly responsible position, because his history demonstrates an innate inability to adapt to change or even bother trying, despite professing interest in working in a professional field that's at least as broad as medicine and as fickle as fashion, and advancing faster than either one. The most logical conclusion that can be drawn is that until he's demonstrated he's willing and able to work under the

direction of someone else while advancing his own objectives by progressing in experience both professional and educational attainment, having him attempt to startup and run a business is a prospect that's made of fail.

A spoken/unspoken thought casually made may be no more than an idle wish:

more than one thought about something may be qualified as a dream:

beyond the dream stage, actual work is required: anything not written down probably doesn't even go as far as a plan, and if you fail to plan, you plan to fail:

a plan with no measurable objectives is insane and vague, and little more than a dream, as you won't be able to measure against results and answer the question, "Are we there yet?"

He has not done much more than make an idle wish, slightly less than a dream: to accomplish anything of value, he'll need to put in a lot more actual work, something he has not demonstrated a willingness or ability to do. For the sake of his family, he needs to start at ground level in just getting himself educated sufficiently towards actually advancing: if he's complaining that his employer is being unfair and not advancing him, I ask everyone: why on earth should an employer advance someone that takes no real effort to advance themselves?

"Is it possible for a service to break new ground in > delivery style and child centred approach or are present services reaching > perfection?"

> > While it's possible, in the situation being discussed and with being the > one who might be offering said services, it is not likely.

> > can barely handle his own situation regarding employment; has no > experience running a successful business; has no experience managing employees > to the degree that he would need to manage them if he started up a business; has > no experience providing appropriate services for those on the Autism Spectrum > either as an employer or as a service provider; and more.

> > You of all people should know that based on what has posted about his > business model that he is ill-equipped to take mimi up on her business > suggestion.

> > Raven

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards founded > by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the > www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum > administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

> > Check the Links section for more FAM forums. > >

[Guest guest]

If he has not done the planning, he will not get to the stage of having children in his group because it won't exist. If he has not got the planning right he will not have a group of children because hopefully his country, like mine, has strict rules for the provision of children's services. I do not see anything wrong with someone having to persist to set up a children's group. The only thing that bothers me is that perhaps there are no legal guidelines for children's services after reading an earlier post about some bizarre people being allowed to set up a school. Also, when he applies for insurance, which is essential, he will have to answer questions about the service and I doubt that a person who could not detail a safe program would be insured. When my son applied for insurance for his coaching business, he had to be able to provide information about the suitability of premises, fulfil requirements for the ratio of adults to children, have a first aid certificate, have documented safety procedures and a ton of other stuff. Getting past that lot would mean that he would be well on the way to providing a good service. Also, if he charges a fee, he is likely to find a whole new set of conditions he needs to fulfil to be licenced unless in his country, they have not got legislation to protect children. Up until that stage of actually enrolling children, it really does not matter how many tries he has to get it up and running.

Re: Advice part 3

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... So nobody has to get it right straight off ... <snip> ... "

All the more reason NOT to use children as the trial grounds to find out how often one has to do something 'wrong' before getting it 'right.'

Why should children become an 'entrepreneur's' Ground Zero?

Raven

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