Re: Intimacy and Asperger Syndrome – Can They Coexist?

[Guest guest]

Hi ;you wrote, excerpted;We must admit ayway that we are selfish. We are demanding. We have

special needs and unless they are met, we will not be happy.1. Extroverts and NT's can also be considered selfish as they have special needs; (lots of human interaction) Yes, I am being rather 'catty' after my partner being under foot today at work. I went in to the office to do some paperwork uninterupted by colleagues. the office is closed today.(Our receptionist was away for 2 days so I was doing her job plus mine, I am paid fairly for that BUT have excess of people contact) My partner came in, for a genuine reason work related. She proceeded to ask me a question she had already asked me a couple of weeks ago, my reply: "as I stated when you asked that the first time......." I went out for a few minutes, came back and shut the door to the office

where I decided to work, hopefully uninterupted. She then knocked on

the door, to ask a question which she could have discovered the answer for, if she had re-read the paperwork that she was supposed to have gone over yesterday. Then as she was leaving, she again opened the door to tell me that she had left 2 phone messages for me on the desk, where I had been working, before I went out.(we do have 'in baskets' for messages, and I have repeatedly asked her to use mine)You wrote excerpted:

As an advocate for autistics, what bothers me most about this is

the apathy most people on the spectrum have for their predicament.

.............We pointed out to the group leader that he was feeding

them nothing but information from Autism Speaks about the how they were

rejects and burdens on society and all that.

We pointed out that we had a different view on that....................

We said that....... . we might be able to provide a perspective that

would invigorate and motivate these folks to be more participatory.

The leader would hear nothing of it and told us to get out. In the

presence of the Aspie members of his group, he in essence said that

these Aspies were like dumb cows that needed to be led around by the

nose, that they didn't know what was good for them, and it was his job

to tell them.

And here's the thing:

Not one Aspie disagreed with them......2. there seem to be similarities in how some NT's and their aspie relatives behave; and how members of a religious cult behave. (or how members of a suppressed minority might have behaved in the past)- a leader speaking for the people AND refusing information that would enlighten and empower his people- a leader implying his people are helpless mentally, regarding them as children not adults- a leader implying his people are not 'worthy' or

capable of full status as equals - a leader not trying to teach his people to think for themselves- the people not speaking out or challenging (maybe fear

of loss of economic support, fear of abuse, fear of loss of a social relationship)- apathy, a learned hopelessness on the part of the people- a 'live for now and the system will take care of us' mentality - a choice NOT to choose a different path, and be responsible members of society (not in a social sense but in self determination)you wrote, excerpted;. There are very few people in all my groups who

can prove me wrong on this. It's like pulling teeth to get anyone here

to sign petitions, or to participate in MIC. I once asked people in ALL

my Aspie forums what they would like to see as the subject for a future

podcast. I told them that this was an opportunity for them to be heard,

and tell the world what they wanted.

Out of 700 members, 50 of whom are active on my forums at any given time, I had four responses.

Yet I hear all kinds of whining from Aspies about how bad the world

is for them and that they wish the world would understand them. 3. apathy seems to be the downfall of civilization, organizations etc... It's 'easier' to whine than to take positive action. Possibly many NT's don't care about the next generations, either.Yet, our world would be a much poorer place if brave people had not struggled for woman's right to vote, hold property etc and for Black people and Native American's rightsyou wrote excerpted;If everyone here put up links to the podcasts around the net on

their own sites, or posted them in other forums or the like, many more

thousands could get positive messages about Aspies. To date, I know of

our link being put up by members in two places by FAM members:

Maurice's blog, and a forum moderates for.4. my lame excuse; some of us may not network proficiently ("I am the cat who walks by herself" to paraphrase a quote, from Kipling.) To change another quote "you CAN teach an old dog new tricks', soI have prayed that God will show me where opportunities may exist to mention Midnight In Chicago and awareness for autism.you wrote excerpted;.Aside from all of this, I can now see why it is that homosexuals

urge other homosexuals to come out of the closet, declare themselves,

and speak of their successes and contributions to the community.

I can also understand why they are not keen on coming out. Society

does not care about their contributions to society since society has

already rejected them. 5. I have asked my introvert friends why they often deny their own uniqueness, replacing it with a facade of conformity; Often denying or giving up their own need for time alone or 'space,' wearing themselves out with social stuff, sometimes to the point where they have a meltdown,Their answers often involved trying to please friends or relatives, or finding it easier to go with the majority, or being compelled as children to conform, then it became a way of life, or being pursuaded by others to go to some social thing when they had said 'I need time alone.' I am unusual being an introvert who has stood her ground in most cases. (It hasn't necessarily made my life easier but I have to live with myself and refuse to 'depleat' my inner self to be a people pleaser. renaissanzelady

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[Guest guest]

" She proceeded to ask me a question she had already asked me a couple of weeks

ago, my reply: " as I stated when you asked that the first time....... "

Can't tell you how many times this situation has happened to me at my old places

of work. And when my reply was " As I stated when you asked that the first

time....... "

The reply was invariably " How do you expect me to remember something that

happened WEEKS ago? " (Using that intonation which implies that the event in

question happened in one's childhood, rather than a mere 14 days ago or so.)

Next follows: " You don't have to be so rude! " as if her asking a question that

was already answered is not an infringement on my time.

" I went out for a few minutes, came back and shut the door to the office where I

decided to work, hopefully uninterupted.

" She then knocked on the door, to ask a question which she could have discovered

the answer for, if she had re-read the paperwork that she was supposed to have

gone over yesterday. "

I think you are working with my sister.

Egads!

" Then as she was leaving, she again opened the door to tell me that she had left

2 phone messages for me on the desk, where I had been working, before I went

out. (we do have 'in baskets' for messages, and I have repeatedly asked her to

use mine) "

Yes. I know this type of person. They are the kind which are totally inept, yet

somehow manage to get promoted to upper management faster than you and I ever

will. They are the reason so many companies are collapsing now.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Good afternoon;

wrote excerpted;

it soon became apparent that this person wanted to surround themself with people who would agree with them and I cannot just blindly agree with someone, especially if I don't. It was quite a painful experience for me, because this particular person basically made it quite clear that they considered that a friend is meant to agree with them. This is not my definition of friendship, I sometmes disagree with my friends, people generally cannot agree all the time.

My experience; similair things happened to me in a couple of church groups, (small group Bible Studies, and Congregational Business Meetings)

people telling me that they did not state openly an opinion that contradicted that of their freinds,

or because their minster had 'helped' them, they did not want to publically oppose a program he was in favor of,

OR people sayng I was unusual to state a viewpoint contradictory to that stated by my husband ( if we 'had to' claim the same viewpoint, then one of us was redundant at those discussions)

AND when I was saying my ' goodbyes' before leaving one church, a deacon told me that 'if i stayed, and when I stopped challenging the minister, and saw his veiws as valid, THEN I would make an excellent Deacon" (His message was 'conform, be a 'yes woman', then you will make an excellent board member)

Some human nature seems to want to surround oneself with yes men/women, to avoid conflict, and avoid different views (it is hard work to think) (SARCASM)

It is good that we cannot always agree with our friends, that adds 'spice' to the friendship, a sharpening of our wits and intellect through discusion.

renaissanzelady

Subject: Re: Intimacy and Asperger Syndrome – Can They Coexist?To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:15 AM

I have previously had a bad experience with a local run adult Asperger's support group (not sure if I've mentioned such before, it was some years ago now)."The leader would hear nothing of it and told us to get out. In thepresence of the Aspie members of his group, he in essence said thatthese Aspies were like dumb cows that needed to be led around by thenose, that they didn't know what was good for them, and it was his jobto tell them."The person running the support group I attended was similar. I did disagree with them on many occasions and did speak up; however it soon became apparent that this person wanted to surround themself with people who would agree with them and I cannot just blindly agree with someone, especially if I don't. It was quite a painful experience for me, because this particular person basically made it quite clear that they considered that a friend is meant to agree with them. This is not my

definition of friendship, I sometmes disagree with my friends, people generally cannot agree all the time.> > > "I recently went to a Tony Attwood seminar where his presentation on> Aspergers and relationships made me very angry. Likewise the freak show> where Gisela Slater- makes money out of standing up and telling> people how useless and selfish her husband is while he smiles and nods> in agreement is disgusting. We need people with successful relationships> to do presentations but probably most Autistics are too private to

want> to do that."> > We must admit ayway that we are selfish. We are demanding. We have> special needs and unless they are met, we will not be happy.> > As an advocate for autistics, what bothers me most about this is the> apathy most people on the spectrum have for their predicament. They live> in the here and now, and have no concern about their future. They do not> seem to care about the plight of autistics yet to be born as long as> their own lives are not in any way threatened. They are quick to anger> but slow to react to anything. I have seen my NT relatives start an> online petition on some trivial matter and have thirty thousand> signatures on it in three days through their e-mail networks, but we> have yet to get 2,000 people to sign the Autism Speaks Don't Speak for> Me petition which has been in existence for THREE YEARS.>

> A few weeks ago, Raven and I went to a local Asperger support meeting.> The leader of that group (a non-Aspie) sent a caustic letter threatening> to close down the support group because none of the Aspies would> volunteer for anything, they did not seem to take an interest in the> group's events, and they didn't really seem to care about the topics of> the meetings.> > Raven and I went over there to present our own opinions on why this> might be. We pointed out to the group leader that he was feeding them> nothing but information from Autism Speaks about the how they were> rejects and burdens on society and all that.> > We pointed out that we had a different view on that.> > We said that having been in the newspapers, and on the news, and having> the podcasts downloaded over 5,000 times, with them being linked to by> over 600

organizations around the world, and with us having direct> connections to the most well-known people and organizations in the> autism world we might be able to provide a perspective that would> invigorate and motivate these folks to be more participatory.> > The leader would hear nothing of it and told us to get out. In the> presence of the Aspie members of his group, he in essence said that> these Aspies were like dumb cows that needed to be led around by the> nose, that they didn't know what was good for them, and it was his job> to tell them.> > And here's the thing:> > Not one Aspie disagreed with them.> > We walked out of there and never turned back and I am not sorry. Those> Aspies deserve what happened to them. And it's my personal belief that> much of what is said about them like Gisela Slater- says is>

right.> > There are very few people in all my groups who can prove me wrong on> this. It's like pulling teeth to get anyone here to sign petitions, or> to participate in MIC. I once asked people in ALL my Aspie forums what> they would like to see as the subject for a future podcast. I told them> that this was an opportunity for them to be heard, and tell the world> what they wanted.> > Out of 700 members, 50 of whom are active on my forums at any given> time, I had four responses.> > Yet I hear all kinds of whining from Aspies about how bad the world is> for them and that they wish the world would understand them.> > If everyone here put up links to the podcasts around the net on their> own sites, or posted them in other forums or the like, many more> thousands could get positive messages about Aspies. To date, I know of> our

link being put up by members in two places by FAM members: Maurice's> blog, and a forum moderates for.> > Aside from all of this, I can now see why it is that homosexuals urge> other homosexuals to come out of the closet, declare themselves, and> speak of their successes and contributions to the community.> > I can also understand why they are not keen on coming out. Society does> not care about their contributions to society since society has already> rejected them.> > Autistics with a good relationship jeopardize it just by bringing it up> for public view.> > "The other thing is that most relationships go through difficulties. If> your partner is Autistic, it is very easy to blame that and not work out> difficulties. "> > This is true.> > > >

Administrator>

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[Guest guest]

Good afternoon:mimi wrote, excerpted; I rode a train alone 2 days ago for the first time in my life (i nearly

vomited at the thought) I checked my car was parked legally 4 or 5

times. (it was a 10 min ride) I made sure I had exact change (I wore

strange clothes on purpose, to avoid being approached, while walking I

looked at noone.my reply;In this situation can see parts of both sides, 1. for someone who has never 'been there,' it is hard to understand2. my mom responded to many situations involving dealing with peopl in a way similair to you, and (unfortunalty) I often was very harsh with her.When peopel casue me stress, I 'tune them out" but my mom could not.3. my daughter has a social anxiety disorder, I have learned to be more empathetic.4. Becase of her father's work, I was the primary caregiver when she was young, took her to classes etc, THIS did not bother me,BUT the expectation of other parents that I would chat with them while wating DID cause me grief; IF I had seen someone reading while wating for their kid, I would not 'bug' them. BUT others did not leave me alone when I was

reading. So, I learned to drop her off, find somewhere to 'hide' or walk around the district, then return for her.

mimi wrote, excerpted;I often seek a solution that doesn't expose or draw attention to me.

People see that action as weird (i get avoided) and then I feel relief.my reply;when travelling, I dress 'shabby' (not shabby chic), hoping that I will be viewed as a poor person and not as likely to be mugged, don't know if that's a falacy though.mimi wrote; excerptedI sneak into and out of my home, Often, I will go into work, check in with the receptionist, and drift around doing my work un-noticed, sometimes people forget I am there (That's a good thing) and if one of them answers the phone and it's for me will, ask is "... there?" When I am standing beside them and say yes, their look of shock is hilarious)Invisibility is not always

harmelss, it has been discussed a whil

eago and can be life threatening.Mimi wrote, excerpted,I avoid conflict like it was acid. my reply;my husband also avoids conflict, I find this hard to understand, it's like we are from different universes (he is very social, so human interaction does not stress him as much as it does me) Because of my personality and upbringing, I have a lot of hostility within me, so conflict does not bother me, any more than pleasant interaction does (I have gone for counselling, it has helped somewhat)Maybe a key to my getting along is to accept peopl as they are even if I am not able to understand them.renaissanzeladySubject: Re: Intimacy and Asperger Syndrome – Can They Coexist?To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 10:03 AM

>

As an advocate for autistics, what bothers me most about this is the apathy most people on the spectrum have for their predicament. They live in the here and now, and have no concern about their future. They do not seem to care about the plight of autistics yet to be born as long as their own lives are not in any way threatened. They are quick to anger but slow to react to anything. I have seen my NT relatives start an online petition on some trivial matter and have thirty thousand signatures on it in three days through their e-mail networks, but we have yet to get 2,000 people to sign the Autism Speaks Don't Speak for Me petition which has been in existence for THREE YEARS

Tom with an enormous amout of respect for you and Raven I say this.

Perhaps ASD people in large number suffer from Agraphobia. That is very simply fear of people. I often have heart palpitations after a few brief words. I sneak into and out of my home, I avoid conflict like it was acid. The only time I can muster anything is when it is for my children (far far easier for my son) I can even recognise better behavior in him than myself. Perhaps difficulties become major as the Aspie ages. Is this an excuse (well yes and no)

I often seek a solution that doesn't expose or draw attention to me. People see that action as weird (i get avoided) and then I feel relief

Perhaps you should do a podcast on the ASD silent sufferer, the one that always says yes, even when they hate something. The one that seems sneaky but in reality is looking for anonimity. The person that is silent and accepts any manner of treatment and sees it as survival.

The person that easily intimidates. Many of us are contadictions. That is what makes us have a DX. We seek consistancy, peace and can suffer for years without complaint (only to one day over burnt toast commit suicide) Those people NEED a quiet unstressful niche exsistance, and no amout of good intention can prod them from it.

I rode a train alone 2 days ago for the first time in my life (i nearly vomited at the thought) I checked my car was parked legally 4 or 5 times. (it was a 10 min ride) I made sure I had exact change (I wore strange clothes on purpose, to avoid being approached, while walking I looked at noone.

I did all that just to go someplace to meet my daughter (a dance class she was in) I felt awkward at the dance class so I left to walk around. In the end my daughter yelled at me:

She had no idea that my effort to do this was for her and even when I tried to explain, she complained that I didn't watch the class (you know the one filled with 15 other girls I didn't know) With a giant mirror in the front of the room and no way to seem invisible.

It is hard to feel anything for me on this issue because one would say "you have to get over this, and wow's that's crazy" and even while knowing those things my heart won't stop racing, and I don't take it any better when I meet someone in the hall

I liked the quiet of my house but I can't life there so I "suffer" daily life, "normal" interactions that should be like a breeze, are a giant mountian to climb

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mimi wrote, excerptedNT's have very little tolerance for my desire to be exact. Many times I

won't do something unless I feel I am perfect (that also means many

times I do nothing because I lack confidence.my reply; I also have a desire to be exact, and find it stressful when someone 'pushes' me to answer quickly (I hav asked my work-partner to 'count to 5 silently' when she asks me something, then won't wait for my answer and starts to talk)Also I find it stressful when others are vague, not precise about certain stuff.In certain jobs, precision is necessary, I would not hav wanted th surgeon who operated n my heart to be imprecise...However, taken too far, perfectionism can hold us back.A couple of years ago I found 'flylady's' website, and she has helped me be less perfectionistic. Flylady encourages people to FLY (Finally Love Yourself), she gives motivational tips, addrsses the negative self talk we might use, and also give practical ways to organize our lives.http://www.flylady.net/renaissanzelady--- From: miminm

Subject: Re: Intimacy and Asperger Syndrome – Can They Coexist?To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 10:12 AM

>

At conferences and symposiums and such, and I oftentimes see Aspies allowing their partners and/or parents and/or siblings and/or caregivers tell them how to act and react as if they are circus animals unable to decide for themselves how to act and react. Even circus animals are better able to decide for themselves how to act and react than these Aspies we meet at conferences and symposiums and such. They appear to be far more interested in fitting the stereotype than in presenting themselves for who they are, afraid to upset their 'handlers.'

So don't blame the Tony Attwoods and the Gisela Slater-s of this world; blame those Autistics who CAN speak for themselves but who choose to abdicate to NTs who CHOOSE to present them in a skewed and bad light.

No one can abuse you unless you give them permission to do so, and one's silence is the same as granting permission.

Raven

Mimi> this is all true and could be said of me in any public situation or place that I am "new" to.

I am "not allowed" with my permission to do many things alone, and my own anxiety keeps me in line-- to avoid conflict or expose myself. And I don't really complain. Often I cannot imagine how you guys push yourself to be in a spotlight, as I would require heart medication. I have spoken in public twice (both times the topic was my son and advocation) I have attempted to influence reasearch in my area by participating in studies to make my position and thoughts heard and understood.

NT's have very little tolerance for my desire to be exact. Many times I won't do something unless I feel I am perfect (that also means many times I do nothing because I lack confidence.

I am writing these things not only for myself but to show you another side of inaction, and maybe it isn't everyone that is inactive but perhaps many want to get involved but can't, can't imagine chaning their daily life to incorperate that thing or have been beaten down so many times a winning lottery ticket would escape them.

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mimi wrote;(perhaps I do this intentally subconsciously so that people cannot interact with me, as now I am in a hurry)my reply; sometimes I will plan my time at work so that I am only with my partner for a few minutes, in the hopes that she will only tell/ask me what is necessary, before she goes off to her other job. Unfortunaltly this does not always work...As an intorovert, I try to plan what to tell someone before I start to speak, try to give 'the bottom line' FIRSTshe will

start with personal then get to business, example HER "I have an appointment to get my har cut thursday at 11 am, it's getting too long"ME "WHY are you telling me that?"HER: because I thought you needed to know that I will be out of teh offcie so you can be here"ME" YES but all you needed to tell me was "I need to leave at 10:45 am thursday', OR you could have written it in my book"renaissanzelady

Subject: Re: Intimacy and Asperger Syndrome – Can They Coexist?To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 11:02 AM

>

I am talking more along the lines of simple things. If we are going to complain that we are put upon by society, people are going to get tired of hearing about it unless they see us making some attempts to improve ourselves. That is my point.

> Part of this sufferring is earned, as we have failed to motivate the

> rest of the Aspies to get themselves out of their selfish psychological

> confines.

>

>

>

> Admninistrator

>

while these things make sense and are reasonable, they are far easier to type than to do. It can take me hours to leave the house to buy groceries. I have a list, I know I want to go, but the anxiety of interaction makes me delay. Eventually I go, while there I get distracted, my time constricts upon me and I dash home to be on time for the bus. (perhaps I do this intentally subconsciously so that people cannot interact with me, as now I am in a hurry)

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[Guest guest]

>

> Good afternoon:

> Invisibility is not always harmelss, it has been discussed a whil

> eago and can be life threatening.

>

hey I'm sorry i didn't see that you responded, thanks for doing it

I know it's not always good to be invisible, I even avoid the doctor, so it

includes getting help too.

When i was a child my mother accused me of attention seeking (I was far from

this, and disliked attention seekers) So I guess I am the reverse, I am usually

shocked when people seek me out, as I imagine no one would want to do this.

In any case, it is nice to read something that isn't charged so thank-you and

sorry for the late reply