Re: link to Brewer Baby site

December 1, 2005

I'm another one who can't take iron (also autistic)...but I'm on a snotload of

selenium for

heavy metal poisoning (confirmed by blood test by an environmental doctor-lead,

arsenic

and mercury). And my levels are finally at normal but since like most autistic

people I'm low

in metallathion he wants me to keep taking all the detox stuff except the

eating-tons-and-

tons-of-cilantro (which is what the only relatively SAFE chelator is derived

from anyway).

Kassiane who suspects that doc is a bit towards the spectrum himself

>

> This is a wonderful plan for healthy babies. I got the link from the

> Autism_iron list. One of the posters is an expert on iron and selenium,

> well, more than that, he is brilliant. I highly recommend the

> Autism-iron list.

December 1, 2005

I highly (no, extremely highly) recommend Autism-Mercury and

frequent-dose-chelation as well as Andy Cutler PhD's books

Amalgam Illness and Hair Test Interpretation for insight and information

about the autism signs and symptoms which can actually be from toxic levels

of mercury, iron, and other metals in the body. Andy's books are must-reads

for parents of ASD children and people on the spectrum, themselves.

Cilantro and cilantro-derived chelators are NOT safe. Despite their

advertising and crapola about " clathration " . They can lead to

re-distribution of mercury.

Low metallothionein is due to still being mercury toxic. Blood tests

are only good for current and recent exposure. Blood tests don't detect

mercury that has been pulled out of the blood and been deposited in tissues.

Also, " challenge " tests (urine, or blood drawn following a large dose of a

chelator) are HIGHLY dangerous.

Do you happen to know if you are low or high cysteine? If you are low then

milk (especially fresh raw milk) can help.

Selenium is really important. I hope you are not on a toxic form. Brazil

nuts are the richest source of bioavailable NON-TOXIC selenium.

HTH,

....

>

> I'm another one who can't take iron (also autistic)...but I'm on a

> snotload of selenium for

> heavy metal poisoning (confirmed by blood test by an environmental

> doctor-lead, arsenic

> and mercury). And my levels are finally at normal but since like most

> autistic people I'm low

> in metallathion he wants me to keep taking all the detox stuff except the

> eating-tons-and-

> tons-of-cilantro (which is what the only relatively SAFE chelator is

> derived from anyway).

>

> Kassiane who suspects that doc is a bit towards the spectrum himself

>

> >

> > This is a wonderful plan for healthy babies. I got the link from the

> > Autism_iron list. One of the posters is an expert on iron and selenium,

> > well, more than that, he is brilliant. I highly recommend the

> > Autism-iron list.

>

> Autism_in_Girls-subscribe

> ------------------------

> Autism_in_Girls-unsubscribe

>

December 1, 2005

The thing about cilantro is that most people do not

understand how to take it properly. Cilantro removes

mercury from the cells and the nerves, but the problem

occurs when the mercury goes into the gut. You need a

secondary chelator that removes the mercury from the

gut such as disodium EDTA. (http://www.edtadirect.com/)

The biggest problem with metals redistribution is not the use of

cilantro,

or any other chelator. It is actually the issue of constipation

which causes the

heavy metals to be recirculated. If the bowels are not working

properly than any form of chelation can cause redistribution.

I have used a cilantro " chelation pesto " with great success and

no side effects.

4 cloves garlic

1/3 cup Brazil nuts (selenium)

1/3 cup sunflower seeds (cysteine)

1/3 cup pumpkin seeds (zinc, magnesium)

2 cups packed fresh cilantro (coriander, Chinese parsley) (vitamin A)

2/3 cup flaxseed oil

4 tablespoons lemon juice (vitamin C)

2 tsp dulse powder

Sea salt to taste

Process the cilantro and flaxseed oil in a blender until the

coriander is chopped. Add the garlic, nuts and seeds, dulse and lemon

juice and mix until the mixture is finely blended into a paste. Add a

pinch to sea salt to taste and blend again.

> I highly (no, extremely highly) recommend Autism-

> Mercury and

> frequent-dose-chelation as well as Andy Cutler

> PhD's books

> Amalgam Illness and Hair Test Interpretation for insight and

> information

> about the autism signs and symptoms which can actually be from

> toxic levels

> of mercury, iron, and other metals in the body. Andy's books are

> must-reads

> for parents of ASD children and people on the spectrum, themselves.

>

> Cilantro and cilantro-derived chelators are NOT safe. Despite their

> advertising and crapola about " clathration " . They can lead to

> re-distribution of mercury.

>

> Low metallothionein is due to still being mercury toxic. Blood tests

> are only good for current and recent exposure. Blood tests don't

> detect

> mercury that has been pulled out of the blood and been deposited in

> tissues.

> Also, " challenge " tests (urine, or blood drawn following a large

> dose of a

> chelator) are HIGHLY dangerous.

>

> Do you happen to know if you are low or high cysteine? If you are

> low then

> milk (especially fresh raw milk) can help.

>

> Selenium is really important. I hope you are not on a toxic form.

> Brazil

> nuts are the richest source of bioavailable NON-TOXIC selenium.

>

> HTH,

> ...

>

>>

>> I'm another one who can't take iron (also autistic)...but I'm on a

>> snotload of selenium for

>> heavy metal poisoning (confirmed by blood test by an environmental

>> doctor-lead, arsenic

>> and mercury). And my levels are finally at normal but since like most

>> autistic people I'm low

>> in metallathion he wants me to keep taking all the detox stuff

>> except the

>> eating-tons-and-

>> tons-of-cilantro (which is what the only relatively SAFE chelator is

>> derived from anyway).

>>

>> Kassiane who suspects that doc is a bit towards the spectrum himself

>>

>>>

>>> This is a wonderful plan for healthy babies. I got the link from the

>>> Autism_iron list. One of the posters is an expert on iron and

>>> selenium,

>>> well, more than that, he is brilliant. I highly recommend the

>>> Autism-iron list.

>>

>> Autism_in_Girls-subscribe

>> ------------------------

>> Autism_in_Girls-unsubscribe

>>

December 1, 2005

>

> I highly (no, extremely highly) recommend Autism-Mercury and

> frequent-dose-chelation as well as Andy Cutler PhD's books

> Amalgam Illness and Hair Test Interpretation for insight and information

> about the autism signs and symptoms which can actually be from toxic levels

> of mercury, iron, and other metals in the body. Andy's books are must-reads

> for parents of ASD children and people on the spectrum, themselves.

>

> Cilantro and cilantro-derived chelators are NOT safe. Despite their

> advertising and crapola about " clathration " . They can lead to

> re-distribution of mercury.

>

> Low metallothionein is due to still being mercury toxic. Blood tests

> are only good for current and recent exposure. Blood tests don't detect

> mercury that has been pulled out of the blood and been deposited in tissues.

> Also, " challenge " tests (urine, or blood drawn following a large dose of a

> chelator) are HIGHLY dangerous.

>

> Do you happen to know if you are low or high cysteine? If you are low then

> milk (especially fresh raw milk) can help.

>

> Selenium is really important. I hope you are not on a toxic form. Brazil

> nuts are the richest source of bioavailable NON-TOXIC selenium.

>

They did a blood test because it was recent exposure; I'd just moved from an

area where

the ambient mercury is so high they're testing *everyone*. He also says

challenge tests are

dangerous.

My doc said DMSA is a derivative of cilantro...and gave us very specific

instructions. And

an insane-feeling supplement/diet regimin. I'm on pill selenium, because there's

days that

eating nuts is just " ugh. food. no. " I get random food aversions...though Brazil

nuts are in

the Snack Cabinet.

Cysteine I've got no idea about. I do know I'm not casein intolerant so long as

I *am*

gluten free (can only handle so many peptides or something), and we drink

organic milk.

Kassiane

December 1, 2005

>

> The thing about cilantro is that most people do not

> understand how to take it properly. Cilantro removes

> mercury from the cells and the nerves, but the problem

> occurs when the mercury goes into the gut. You need a

> secondary chelator that removes the mercury from the

> gut such as disodium EDTA. (http://www.edtadirect.com/)

>

> The biggest problem with metals redistribution is not the use of

> cilantro,

> or any other chelator. It is actually the issue of constipation

> which causes the

> heavy metals to be recirculated. If the bowels are not working

> properly than any form of chelation can cause redistribution.

>

> I have used a cilantro " chelation pesto " with great success and

> no side effects.

That sounds yummy. And has all the nutrients Im taking...and...heh. One of the

side

effects of taking all them, plus Omega 3s (certified metal free)

is...ah...everything moves

faster. Nothing reabsorbed here....*tries to whistle*

Kassiane

December 1, 2005

Hey! That was a little harsh! is a HUGE attribute to this group and

has been for a LONG time. I have yet to see give wrong advice and trust

me, many of us have asked for it over the last couple years. Chelation is

certainly something that I know nothing about so I wont even get involved in the

conversation about that. I think that if you are going to tell that " You

are obviously not familiar with the chemical properties of what you are

talking about. " Then you had better be able to back that up. is a pretty

smart lady that perhaps you are under estimating. We all have different

opinions on this group and that's what makes the group go round but it has to

be

done in a tactful way.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

December 1, 2005

Listen, ,

I take EDTA from time to time. EDTA is NOT a chelator of mercury. PERIOD. I

wouldn't bother with disodium EDTA, personally.

Your advice, though well-meaning is WRONG. PERIOD. You are obviously not

familiar with the chemical properties of what you are talking about.

Unfortunately how constipated someone is, is not a controlling factor in the

efficacy of a a particular chelator. Secondary schmecondary that is just

WRONG. PERIOD.

I have been on chelation lists for years and your well-meaning ideas have

been debunked and exposed too many times to count by well-qualified,

published chemists who are experts in the field chelation.

Andy Cutler, PhD, is a frequent poster on both

AutismMercury and

Frequent-dose-chelation . Any legitimate chemist knows that

what you are recommending is not a good idea. At best it is like playing

Russian Roulette.

I encourage you to check out the easily accessible lists, I've mentioned, or

correspond with Andy Culter - or any knowledgeable chemistry professor.

Also, btw, many of the moms of autistic kids (and the kids themselves) have

undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disease. Any source of iodine, such as

seaweed (dulse), or iodized salt, can cause increased antibody attack

against the thyroid. The only well-tolerated form of iodine (an essential

nutrient) in the case of autoimmune thyroid is thyroid hormone therapy

(preferrably Natural Armour Thyroid - not synthetic T4.)

Leaving out the cilantro and the dulse it's a very nice recipe.

Very respectfully,

....

>

> The thing about cilantro is that most people do not

> understand how to take it properly. Cilantro removes

> mercury from the cells and the nerves, but the problem

> occurs when the mercury goes into the gut. You need a

> secondary chelator that removes the mercury from the

> gut such as disodium EDTA. (http://www.edtadirect.com/)

>

> The biggest problem with metals redistribution is not the use of

> cilantro,

> or any other chelator. It is actually the issue of constipation

> which causes the

> heavy metals to be recirculated. If the bowels are not working

> properly than any form of chelation can cause redistribution.

>

> I have used a cilantro " chelation pesto " with great success and

> no side effects.

>

> 4 cloves garlic

>

> 1/3 cup Brazil nuts (selenium)

>

> 1/3 cup sunflower seeds (cysteine)

>

> 1/3 cup pumpkin seeds (zinc, magnesium)

>

> 2 cups packed fresh cilantro (coriander, Chinese parsley) (vitamin A)

>

> 2/3 cup flaxseed oil

>

> 4 tablespoons lemon juice (vitamin C)

>

> 2 tsp dulse powder

>

> Sea salt to taste

>

> Process the cilantro and flaxseed oil in a blender until the

> coriander is chopped. Add the garlic, nuts and seeds, dulse and lemon

> juice and mix until the mixture is finely blended into a paste. Add a

> pinch to sea salt to taste and blend again.

>

> > I highly (no, extremely highly) recommend Autism-

> > Mercury and

> > frequent-dose-chelation as well as Andy Cutler

> > PhD's books

> > Amalgam Illness and Hair Test Interpretation for insight and

> > information

> > about the autism signs and symptoms which can actually be from

> > toxic levels

> > of mercury, iron, and other metals in the body. Andy's books are

> > must-reads

> > for parents of ASD children and people on the spectrum, themselves.

> >

> > Cilantro and cilantro-derived chelators are NOT safe. Despite their

> > advertising and crapola about " clathration " . They can lead to

> > re-distribution of mercury.

> >

> > Low metallothionein is due to still being mercury toxic. Blood tests

> > are only good for current and recent exposure. Blood tests don't

> > detect

> > mercury that has been pulled out of the blood and been deposited in

> > tissues.

> > Also, " challenge " tests (urine, or blood drawn following a large

> > dose of a

> > chelator) are HIGHLY dangerous.

> >

> > Do you happen to know if you are low or high cysteine? If you are

> > low then

> > milk (especially fresh raw milk) can help.

> >

> > Selenium is really important. I hope you are not on a toxic form.

> > Brazil

> > nuts are the richest source of bioavailable NON-TOXIC selenium.

> >

> > HTH,

> > ...

> >

> >>

> >> I'm another one who can't take iron (also autistic)...but I'm on a

> >> snotload of selenium for

> >> heavy metal poisoning (confirmed by blood test by an environmental

> >> doctor-lead, arsenic

> >> and mercury). And my levels are finally at normal but since like most

> >> autistic people I'm low

> >> in metallathion he wants me to keep taking all the detox stuff

> >> except the

> >> eating-tons-and-

> >> tons-of-cilantro (which is what the only relatively SAFE chelator is

> >> derived from anyway).

> >>

> >> Kassiane who suspects that doc is a bit towards the spectrum himself

> >>

> >>>

> >>> This is a wonderful plan for healthy babies. I got the link from the

> >>> Autism_iron list. One of the posters is an expert on iron and

> >>> selenium,

> >>> well, more than that, he is brilliant. I highly recommend the

> >>> Autism-iron list.

>

December 2, 2005

I very much appreciate that, Pennie. I never take my advice lightly,

and would certainly never give advice about something as complex as

chelation without complete confidence in what I was saying. I was

primarily addressing Kassiane's specific circumstance based on what

she had told us abput lab results and what I already know about her

from the last couple of years.

It is quite obvious that is extremely passionate about her

views. What we often lose sight of is that as passionately as we may

feel about something, there is going to also be someone who feels

just as passionately about the opposite point of view. That's what

these lists are for.....to give everyone a voice. There are many

experts and many expert opinions, many of which contradict each

other. If education and experience qualifies someone as an expert,

then I would hope I could consider myself an expert.

I do want to reply to 's concerns, but I've got a 50 mile

drive in the pouring rain and fog to my first class, and I will reply

sometime today between classes.

Thanks again for your nice post.

> Hey! That was a little harsh! is a HUGE attribute to this

> group and

> has been for a LONG time. I have yet to see give wrong advice

> and trust

> me, many of us have asked for it over the last couple years.

> Chelation is

> certainly something that I know nothing about so I wont even get

> involved in the

> conversation about that. I think that if you are going to tell

> that " You

> are obviously not familiar with the chemical properties of what

> you are

> talking about. " Then you had better be able to back that up.

> is a pretty

> smart lady that perhaps you are under estimating. We all have

> different

> opinions on this group and that's what makes the group go round

> but it has to be

> done in a tactful way.

>

> Pennie

> Abby's Mom

>

December 2, 2005

Hi! Penny -

>> We all have different opinions on this group and that's what makes the

group go round but it has to be done in a tactful way.

I urge you refer back to my post on Dec 1, 2005 5:24 PM. You will see that I

tried to be very diplomatic about steering to sources where she could

learn for herself how incorrect, and dangerous, her ideas were. Mercury

toxic people have suffered very serious, sometimes irreversible, damage

following advice such as offered and then re-asserted. I haven't

impugned 's intelligence, nor her motives, nor her experience. It is

obvious that no one familiar with the physical, chemical, kinetic properties

of mercury, cilantro, disodium EDTA would assert that cilantro and disodium

EDTA are safe or appropriate to use in this way. That is not a matter of

opinion. That is a matter of chemistry. You are free to use the CRC Handbook

to see for yourself. Any professor of chemistry can explain the same thing

to you.

Say you are driving at top speed toward a cliff and I tell you in a pleasant

voice to stop, and you not only don't stop but insist it is the correct

direction because someone, who gives directions for a living, charged you

for the directions and you are sure this is the correct direction. Besides

you are smart and wonderful and you have never driven off a cliff

before. What do you think I should do? Let you drive over the cliff? Or

really get your attention that you are headed the wrong way?

Chemistry is not an opinion, nor a popularity contest. It is chemistry.

There is a tremendous amount of misleading information that is being

promulgated regarding chelation by lots of healthcare professionals who

should know better; by well-meaning people on the internet.

....

>

> Hey! That was a little harsh! is a HUGE attribute to this group and

> has been for a LONG time. I have yet to see give wrong advice and

> trust me, many of us have asked for it over the last couple years. Chelation

> is

> certainly something that I know nothing about so I wont even get involved

> in the conversation about that. I think that if you are going to tell

> that " You

> are obviously not familiar with the chemical properties of what you are

> talking about. " Then you had better be able to back that up. is a

> pretty

> smart lady that perhaps you are under estimating. We all have different

> opinions on this group and that's what makes the group go round but it

> has to be done in a tactful way.

>

> Pennie

> Abby's Mom

>

December 2, 2005

Sorry, I misspelled your name, Pennie.

>

> Hi! Penny -

>

December 2, 2005

It appears this particular subject is becoming frustrating to some of you.

We have all done our best to provide insight and advice per our point of

view and experience. The human mind and the human body's chemical balance

are complex and surely we can all admit that even the best of science and

minds do not have all the answers. If you are familiar with string theory

you will know that not only did the first theories prove the " minds of the

time " wrong, but that to remove the anomalies it took one man willing to

look at all points of view and conclude that all point of view were

different ways of looking at the same answer. What seemed like a group of

opposing views later became a group of explanations at different levels to

provide one large correct answer. Let me use the cliff analogy to explain.

From 's point of view, Penny is ignoring obviously qualified advice

and is directly aimed at driving off a cliff. From this we can conclude

that from 's point of view, she is at ground level with the cliff

looking out at a distance at Penny who is aimed toward the edge. From her

point of view, Christiana cannot see anything lower than the top edge of the

cliff. (Please don't read into this as me saying she is short sighted, but

I am trying to give you a visual.) From Pennies point of view, she sees

behind her yelling don't go, while seeing yet another professional

on the other side of the gorge yelling go ahead. She cannot see below the

top edge of the cliff either but can hear both yelling.

Now, let's step aside from the analogy for a moment and look at the

information in question. After careful research I learned that EDTA or

ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a novel molecule for complexing metal

ions. It is a polyprotic acid containing four carboxylic acid groups and

two amine groups with lone pair electrons. EDTA is synthesized on an

industrial scale from ethylenediamine,

<http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/form-0.html> formaldehyde, and a source of

cyanide (HCN or NaCN). I also learned that besides the four carboxylic

group hydrogens, EDTA can add two more hydrogens onto the amine groups. The

structures can be the fully protonated form (forms at very low pH or very

acidic condition H6Y+2 ), the typical form found in many textbook (classic

form H4Y ), and the fully deprotonated (all acidic H's removed, forms at

very high pH or alkaline conditions Y-4 ) form. The unusual property of

EDTA is its ability to chelate or complex metal ions in 1:1 metal-to-EDTA

complexes. The fully deprotonated form (all acidic hydrogens removed) of

EDTA binds to the metal ion. The equilibrium or formation constants for

most metals, especially the transition metals, are very large, hence the

reactions are shifted to the complex. Many of the reactions are pH

dependent, especially the weaker forming complexes with Ca+2 or Mg+2.

M+n + Y-4 MYn-4 Kf = (MYn-4)/(M+n)(Y-4)

And the cow jumped over the moon.Ok, so we can see this chemically gets very

complex especially if you do not have a chemical science background.

However, most of us do not understand light to this degree, but stop

believing in light because you can't understand its creation would sound

ridiculous. In other words, there is something to say for what we gain or

see in life experience.

So, we turn to professionals for guidance. Dr. Muttart ND is quoted

" EDTA, on the other hand, does not remove mercury as it is a very weak

chelator of mercury. EDTA can be toxic when taken daily by mouth for a

prolonged time. Treatment for mercury and arsenic is thus quite different

when considering chelation therapy. DMSA (dimercaptosuccinic acid) is the

most effective oral chelating agent and is used as an oral chelator of

mercury and lead. " (http://www.docrebecca.com/news_18.html) While Dr.

Theodore B. Hoekman is quoted " Mercury can be chelated in the peripheral

tissues with EDTA and penicillamine. Even though the plasma levels can be

reduced very efficiently, mercury forms alkyl ligands in the tissues. "

(http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/hydro/heavmet.htm). Right there are two

professional with what appears to be directly opposing views. However,

after careful analysis of the resourses these doctors quote to support their

views, we find the case studies vary widely. One study used by Dr. Muttart

examined the effects of HgCl2 exposure (five doses of 5.0 mg/kg between ages

8 to 12 days) on physiological parameters, on porphobilinogen synthase

activity, and on mercury content in liver, kidneys and brain from suckling

rats. This study done in 2005 concluded that 2,3-Dimercapto-1-propanol does

not alter the porphobilinogen synthase inhibition but decreases the mercury

content in liver and kidney of suckling rats exposed to HgCl2 . Her

findings are based on several other people's research too. Dr. Hoekman is

based on research done in 2002 and ongoing at the American College for the

Advancement of Medicine on 40 human test subjects receiving treatment

through intravenous methods. The details are available on the ACAM site.

He bases his research on several other people's research and his own

clinical trials.

Both are convincing but what detail is missing for me is what form of EDTA

was tested, what other factors were involved such as purpose of test and who

brought in second or third opinions. Science is ever evolving and we are

all racing to catch up. Whatever the case, I think I have provided enough

detail here to show my point..so back to the cliff analogy. Perhaps the

doctor on the other side of the cliff sees a ledge just below the edge that

neither Penny nor can see, just waiting to be explored. When one

endeavors to know the mind of God and the world He created, one is bound to

learn 2 unchanging Truths 1) We are all fallen human beings and as long as

we live on the earth we can never know all the right answers for achieving

ultimate perfection is not possible as a human and 2) The one who continues

to step closer and closer to Truth is the one who realizes we must listen to

everyone even the dull and ignorant to learn of the beautiful complexities

of this world. Perhaps future research will show that in different

environments and with different forms of these chemical structures will show

both of you to be right or both of you to be wrong.

Let us not assume that one does not respect the others input when one does

not on the surface agree. Take it as another branch on the tree of life.

Sorry for the long post, but a short post would not have done this point

justice.

Re: Re: link to Brewer Baby site