Re: Stillness.

[Guest guest]

Regarding being 'invisible' definitely in some situations is annoying, many

times I will politely wait in a shop, or queue only to be completely ignored/not

seen and then for someone else to waltz in and instantly get noticed/served.

This does annoy me no end, because I feel that I have paitently waited and yet

completely ignored. Sadly I have seen the same thing happen to my son.

Being verbally 'invisible'; there have been occasions, such as meetings where I

have said something and been completely ignored and moments later someone will

say the same thing and get instantly acknowleged. At times I have even wondered

if I have spoken aloud or just thought the things - however I'm usually quite

sure I have spoken aloud.

Regarding automatic doors - yep I'm one of the people that many automatic doors

refuse to see and to the point that I am aware now where there are certain

automatic doors in the places I sometimes go that quite often just fail to

acknowledge my prescence. It can be quite embarassing when someone has just

walked through the doors for them to close on me and refuse to open, or my

attempts at waving and desperately moving around to try and get the sensor to

notice me there (have gotten some odd looks doing such).

Am I a figment of my own imagination? :-)

>

>

>

> Hi maxxii: 

> Welcome as a poster!

>  

> Maxxii and Raven:

>  

> At times I also have been 'invisible'. The WHEN of my invisibility seems to

vary, possibly correlated to how comfortable I am in a situation. IF I am

neutral as to being 'seen,' I can often be invisible BUT if I walk into a room

and WANT to remain 'unseen' for a bit, people tend to notice me, draw verbal

attention to me etc. etc.

>  

> When I want to be 'visible', i.e. heard, and am not, it's really annoying....

> If it just happens occasionally, I think that the topic or question might not

be of interest to the person at that time and that's OK.

> With certain people, I seem to lack social skills or 'the aura' which would

lead them to hear me. 

>  (OR maybe I 'picked'  'certain friends' (now ex-freinds) who are predisposed

NOT to hear me. Kind of like a built in desire to fail?? that's convoluted

psycho babble) 

>  

> Sometimes, I think I am being invisible, discrete, but other people think I am

not!!

>  

> Some years ago I read a couple of self help books on gender based

communication, mistaken perceptions that women are more talkative than men,

people might listen to a boring man expound on something but not a boring woman

etc etc. addressing a hidden social stereotype that women are like children and

should be seen but not heard. (my women's equality bias is showing)

>  

> renaissanzelady

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 02:08, environmental1st2003

<no_reply > wrote:

> Seems that ASD people have to make a lot of noise and move around alot to be

noticed by NTs and electronic devices.

Yes -- and when we generate enough noises and motions to have a

fighting chance of getting the rest of the world to notice us, the

rest of the world calls it " inappropriate behavior " ...

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Re:

> ... many times I will politely wait in a shop, or queue only to be completely

ignored/not seen and then for someone else to waltz in and instantly get

noticed/served. This does annoy me no end, because I feel that I have paitently

waited and yet completely ignored. ...

>

> Being verbally 'invisible'; there have been occasions, such as meetings where

I have said something and been completely ignored and moments later someone will

say the same thing and get instantly acknowleged. ...

> Regarding automatic doors - yep I'm one of the people that many automatic

doors refuse to see and to the point that I am aware now where there are certain

automatic doors in the places I sometimes go that quite often just fail to

acknowledge my prescence. It can be quite embarassing when someone has just

walked through the doors for them to close on me and refuse to open, or my

attempts at waving and desperately moving around to try and get the sensor to

notice me there (have gotten some odd looks doing such).

Though wrote the above, I could have written EVERY ONE of those words.

I''ve not only gotten ignored in a store (or other place of business)

after ten patient minutes of having reached the front of the line, on

one occasion I got ignored for fifteen minutes in a small-town

train-station where I was THE ONLY person waiting on line, as the

ticket-clerk looked steadily THROUGH me until the train finally

approached: hearing the train, he suddenly saw me ... and instantly

berated me as though I had *just* arrived at the very last moment to

buy a ticket!

" Verbal invisibility " has occurred during enough

classes/meetings/etc., that at one point the staff (in an office where

I worked) actually started taping meetings to " prove " to me that I had

not spoken at all (because I had complained about reprimands given to

me for " not speaking " when called on to answer questions, " sitting

silently through meetings, " and so on). The tapes clearly revealed (to

the boss's and staff's great embarrassment) that indeed I had spoken

(just as clearly and just as loud as anyone else present), that indeed

the boss and all others present had nevertheless reacted as though I

hadn't said a word ( " Since Kate isn't responding to the question " --

words uttered IN THE MIDDLE OF MY RESPONSE -- " let's move on to the

next item on the agenda ... " ), and so on. The boss thereupon shredded

the tapes and directed that anyone referring in future to such events

(or taping further meetings) would face termination.

In addition to the above, computers often fail to respond to my

key-strokes: not constantly, but often enough to make computer-use

quite a gamble. (This problem has increased -- in frequency,

intensity, and duration -- as I've gotten older. By now, it has

happened often enough to force me to drop out of computer-related

classes and projects that would otherwise have made a lot of sense to

complete. How would I have coped, I wonder, if for any reason I had to

depend on electronics for all communication -- how would I have coped

in some of today's ultra-computerized elementary schools or

distance-learning programs? Could I even have completed enough

assignments -- in enough time -- to get a grade above " fail " ?)

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate and :Your descriptions of invisibility were quite chilling. (distressing) particlularily you waiting at a train ticket office (), and people claiming you were not speaking at work meetings (kate)Generally, I'm not ignored by clerks or people in line, am one of those "rude, impatient" people who says 'excuse me, I am next in line" when a clerk ignores me, or when another customer steps in front of me. When a clerk has tried to 'look through me', I wave enthusiastically (both hands) and say "Hi" quite chirpily. (My ethnic background is noted for it's gestures and enthusiasm when conversing, plus my impatience with being ignored out-weighs any fear of being embarassed!)Many years ago, we lived in a rural village. There was a 'flag stop' for Greyhound Bus

Service at a garage on the main highway. A passenger could not book ahead by phoning in, he/she had to wait on the highway, and wave frantically when the bus was approaching. Normally this worked OK for the villagers. One nice summer day, I was planning to take the bus to the city. As the highway was near my husband's workplace, he decided to walk out to the 'flag stop' and wait with me. When the bus was approaching, I waved as normal. The bus neither slowed down nor stopped, and I had to jump out of the way to avoid being hit. My husband was my witness that I was waving with grand gestures, the highway and weather were clear, the sun would not have been in the driver's eyes ETC.So I went to the pay phone at the garage, phoned the Greyhound Bus Depot in the city, explained what had happpened and asked if there was another bus following and was that why it did not stop? They said 'no' that

was the only bus. my reply: I will be writing a complaint to their regional office, I had a witness with me, and would be taking the bus to the city in the next day, I trust that driver will be watching!" The next day, we again walked to the highway, I 'waved the bus down' and it stopped, the driver (with amusement) said 'lady, it was not me that missed you yesterday" I said "GOOD "I do seem to (inadvertently) 'attract' people into my personal life who claim I never said something, or totally ignore what I said (starting with my mom and now my husband) or who avoid the specifics of what I ask them, and ramble on about related stuff (my partner at work). In social settings, if my suggestions have been ignored, but then someone else makes the same suggestion a few minites later, it is 'embraced' with enthusiasm, I will verbally question this. This does not always make

for harmonious relationships, my nature is quite combative. (I don't accept prejudice quietly)renaissanzelady

Re:

> ... many times I will politely wait in a shop, or queue only to be completely ignored/not seen and then for someone else to waltz in and instantly get noticed/served. This does annoy me no end, because I feel that I have paitently waited and yet completely ignored. ...

>

> Being verbally 'invisible'; there have been occasions, such as meetings where I have said something and been completely ignored and moments later someone will say the same thing and get instantly acknowleged. ...

> Regarding automatic doors - yep I'm one of the people that many automatic doors refuse to see and to the point that I am aware now where there are certain automatic doors in the places I sometimes go that quite often just fail to acknowledge my prescence. It can be quite embarassing when someone has just walked through the doors for them to close on me and refuse to open, or my attempts at waving and desperately moving around to try and get the sensor to notice me there (have gotten some odd looks doing such).

Though wrote the above, I could have written EVERY ONE of those words.

I''ve not only gotten ignored in a store (or other place of business)

after ten patient minutes of having reached the front of the line, on

one occasion I got ignored for fifteen minutes in a small-town

train-station where I was THE ONLY person waiting on line, as the

ticket-clerk looked steadily THROUGH me until the train finally

approached: hearing the train, he suddenly saw me ... and instantly

berated me as though I had *just* arrived at the very last moment to

buy a ticket!

"Verbal invisibility" has occurred during enough

classes/meetings/ etc., that at one point the staff (in an office where

I worked) actually started taping meetings to "prove" to me that I had

not spoken at all (because I had complained about reprimands given to

me for "not speaking" when called on to answer questions, "sitting

silently through meetings," and so on). The tapes clearly revealed (to

the boss's and staff's great embarrassment) that indeed I had spoken

(just as clearly and just as loud as anyone else present), that indeed

the boss and all others present had nevertheless reacted as though I

hadn't said a word ("Since Kate isn't responding to the question" --

words uttered IN THE MIDDLE OF MY RESPONSE -- "let's move on to the

next item on the agenda ... "), and so on. The boss thereupon shredded

the tapes and directed that anyone referring in future to such events

(or taping further meetings) would face termination.

In addition to the above, computers often fail to respond to my

key-strokes: not constantly, but often enough to make computer-use

quite a gamble. (This problem has increased -- in frequency,

intensity, and duration -- as I've gotten older. By now, it has

happened often enough to force me to drop out of computer-related

classes and projects that would otherwise have made a lot of sense to

complete. How would I have coped, I wonder, if for any reason I had to

depend on electronics for all communication -- how would I have coped

in some of today's ultra-computerized elementary schools or

distance-learning programs? Could I even have completed enough

assignments -- in enough time -- to get a grade above "fail"?)

Kate Gladstone

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Guest guest]

Re:

> Generally, I'm not ignored by clerks or people in line, am one of those

> " rude, impatient " people who says 'excuse me, I am next in line " when a

> clerk ignores me, or when another customer steps in front of me.

> When a clerk has tried to 'look through me', I wave enthusiastically (both

> hands) and say " Hi " quite chirpily. (My ethnic background is noted for it's

> gestures and enthusiasm when conversing, plus my impatience with being

> ignored out-weighs any fear of being embarassed!)

I, too, have often had to resort to this -- however, about 50% of the

time it simply fails to work! (The clerk still doesn't see me, even

though people nearby or waiting in line behind me sometimes do --

children, especially, will " see " me more often than folks past puberty

-- and in those cases these witnesses will do their level best to call

the clerk's attention to my existence:

" Hey, Mister, why're you ringin' up my purchase when the lady

right in front of me has been tryin' to catch yer eye with for five

solid minutes? "

" What lady? Ain't NObody waitin' in front of you, kid, so

can-I-help-you,-who's-next? " )

The fact that children " see " me more often than the adults in the room

has, I fear, made life very hard for some of those children -- e.g.,

the time that three kids tried to get the nearest adults to call 911

or otherwise " do something " when I started choking on food in an

Amtrak dining car occupied only by me, the children, their parents,

and the counterman (who didn't " see " me either -- it had taken him

about ten minutes to start " seeing " me when I ordered my meal, despite

increasingly conspicuous hand-gestures, money in hand, repeated

" Excuse me, sir " s, and (yes) eye-contact. Finally, I suppose, I must

have somehow activated his " people detector " enough for him to notice

my presence -- if so, his " people detector " clicked OFF again during

the next few minutes when I left the counter and sat down to eat,

because he " un-saw " me once again as I choked.)

Anyway, the kids in the room -- who tried so frantically to get

their parents' and the counterman's attention -- got only reprimands

for it all from their parents and the annoyed counterman -- until

finally I managed to self-administer the Heimlich maneuver (bumping my

stomach hard into the table) which saved my life and finally got them

noticing me ..; but noticing me ONLY as a woman " making a scene for

some stupid reason: she's obviously one of those jerks who enjoys

doing anything possible to get attention " (the counterman's and the

father's view) or " nothing to worry about: they're obviously shooting

some kind of movie or advertisement " (the mother's view -- the mother

went on to explain to her children that " she obviously is only acting,

because if she was really choking to death we would really FEEL that

she was choking to death instead of her just looking as if she was ...

" )

Once I recovered, the counterman " un-saw " me again as I tried to speak

to him (and my letter to Amtrak's customer-service division never got

a reply). I did, though, speak to the mother and father: praising the

children in their parents' presence (because the children had at least

TRIED to get help) and, yes, dispraising the parents in their

children's presence. (It turned out, during the ensuing conversation,

that both of the parents had rather recently renewed their First Aid

certifications: as I pointed out, all the First Aid certificates and

noble intentions in the world wouldn't do a bit of good if a pair of

presumably well-trainedFirst Aiders /a/ didn't notice the opportunity

and need for their skills, and /b/ wasted precious minutes trying to

hush up anybody present who DID notice!

Re:

> Many years ago, we lived in a rural village. There was a 'flag stop' for

> Greyhound Bus Service at a garage on the main highway.  A passenger could

> not book ahead by phoning in, he/she had to wait on the highway, and wave

> frantically when the bus was approaching. ...

This routinely happens to me with buses or taxis -- and not only in

country villages. More and more often these days, I go out-off-doors

with a brightly colored,wide-brimmed hat -- specifically so that I can

take it off in order to wave it in front of a driver's eyes. (Even a

driver who doesn't see me person cannot avoid seeing a two-foot-wide

hat frantically waving in and out of his field of vision ... I'd

rather stick my arm and hat out into traffic than stick all of me out

into traffic!)

By the way -- when I've told this sort of thing to

therapists/social-skills trainers/etc., most of them indeed regarded

these reports as just more signs of my " obvious emotional issues. " Two

or three of the more honest ones *did* accept my invitation to " just

follow me around and watch this happen " : it didn't take long for them

to witness it themselves. (The therapists each said to me that

absolutely NOTHING in my behavior could have caused the " ignorals " as

I call such incidents -- I had performed entirely " normal "

body-language, eye-contact, etc., all the while (even when

systematically ignored, I had apparently done exactly what a " normal "

person probably WOULD end up doing if systematically ignored) ...

.... so in each case I asked the therapist (and I would still very much

like to know, as I have asked other therapists and researchers since

then) -- " What goal does training in 'normal social behavior among

others' achieve when the others don't even notice the 'behaver'

successfully carrying out the behaviors so carefully and desperately

inculcated? " No one, then or recently, has even claimed to have an

answer.

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

" Hi Kate and :

Your descriptions of invisibility were quite chilling. (distressing)

particlularily you waiting at a train ticket office (), "

That was Kate.

>

> Hi Kate and :

>

> Your descriptions of invisibility were quite chilling. (distressing)

> particlularily you waiting at a train ticket office (), and people

claiming you were not speaking at work meetings (kate)

>

> Generally, I'm not ignored by clerks or people in line, am one of those " rude,

impatient " people who says 'excuse me, I am next in line " when a clerk ignores

me, or when another customer steps in front of me. 

(SNIP)

[Guest guest]

This has gotten me thinking, despite my 'invisibility' in certain situations

conversely often in stores I am followed around by security.

I have asked friends and even therapist if I look guilty and no one has said

'yes you look guilty'. I am not sure why security follow me around, I've even

pointed it out to others that disbelieved me.

>

> Re:

>

> > Generally, I'm not ignored by clerks or people in line, am one of those

> > " rude, impatient " people who says 'excuse me, I am next in line " when a

> > clerk ignores me, or when another customer steps in front of me.

> > When a clerk has tried to 'look through me', I wave enthusiastically (both

> > hands) and say " Hi " quite chirpily. (My ethnic background is noted for it's

> > gestures and enthusiasm when conversing, plus my impatience with being

> > ignored out-weighs any fear of being embarassed!)

>

> I, too, have often had to resort to this -- however, about 50% of the

> time it simply fails to work! (The clerk still doesn't see me, even

> though people nearby or waiting in line behind me sometimes do --

> children, especially, will " see " me more often than folks past puberty

> -- and in those cases these witnesses will do their level best to call

> the clerk's attention to my existence:

> " Hey, Mister, why're you ringin' up my purchase when the lady

> right in front of me has been tryin' to catch yer eye with for five

> solid minutes? "

> " What lady? Ain't NObody waitin' in front of you, kid, so

> can-I-help-you,-who's-next? " )

>

> The fact that children " see " me more often than the adults in the room

> has, I fear, made life very hard for some of those children -- e.g.,

> the time that three kids tried to get the nearest adults to call 911

> or otherwise " do something " when I started choking on food in an

> Amtrak dining car occupied only by me, the children, their parents,

> and the counterman (who didn't " see " me either -- it had taken him

> about ten minutes to start " seeing " me when I ordered my meal, despite

> increasingly conspicuous hand-gestures, money in hand, repeated

> " Excuse me, sir " s, and (yes) eye-contact. Finally, I suppose, I must

> have somehow activated his " people detector " enough for him to notice

> my presence -- if so, his " people detector " clicked OFF again during

> the next few minutes when I left the counter and sat down to eat,

> because he " un-saw " me once again as I choked.)

> Anyway, the kids in the room -- who tried so frantically to get

> their parents' and the counterman's attention -- got only reprimands

> for it all from their parents and the annoyed counterman -- until

> finally I managed to self-administer the Heimlich maneuver (bumping my

> stomach hard into the table) which saved my life and finally got them

> noticing me ..; but noticing me ONLY as a woman " making a scene for

> some stupid reason: she's obviously one of those jerks who enjoys

> doing anything possible to get attention " (the counterman's and the

> father's view) or " nothing to worry about: they're obviously shooting

> some kind of movie or advertisement " (the mother's view -- the mother

> went on to explain to her children that " she obviously is only acting,

> because if she was really choking to death we would really FEEL that

> she was choking to death instead of her just looking as if she was ...

> " )

>

> Once I recovered, the counterman " un-saw " me again as I tried to speak

> to him (and my letter to Amtrak's customer-service division never got

> a reply). I did, though, speak to the mother and father: praising the

> children in their parents' presence (because the children had at least

> TRIED to get help) and, yes, dispraising the parents in their

> children's presence. (It turned out, during the ensuing conversation,

> that both of the parents had rather recently renewed their First Aid

> certifications: as I pointed out, all the First Aid certificates and

> noble intentions in the world wouldn't do a bit of good if a pair of

> presumably well-trainedFirst Aiders /a/ didn't notice the opportunity

> and need for their skills, and /b/ wasted precious minutes trying to

> hush up anybody present who DID notice!

>

> Re:

>

> > Many years ago, we lived in a rural village. There was a 'flag stop' for

> > Greyhound Bus Service at a garage on the main highway.  A passenger could

> > not book ahead by phoning in, he/she had to wait on the highway, and wave

> > frantically when the bus was approaching. ...

>

> This routinely happens to me with buses or taxis -- and not only in

> country villages. More and more often these days, I go out-off-doors

> with a brightly colored,wide-brimmed hat -- specifically so that I can

> take it off in order to wave it in front of a driver's eyes. (Even a

> driver who doesn't see me person cannot avoid seeing a two-foot-wide

> hat frantically waving in and out of his field of vision ... I'd

> rather stick my arm and hat out into traffic than stick all of me out

> into traffic!)

>

> By the way -- when I've told this sort of thing to

> therapists/social-skills trainers/etc., most of them indeed regarded

> these reports as just more signs of my " obvious emotional issues. " Two

> or three of the more honest ones *did* accept my invitation to " just

> follow me around and watch this happen " : it didn't take long for them

> to witness it themselves. (The therapists each said to me that

> absolutely NOTHING in my behavior could have caused the " ignorals " as

> I call such incidents -- I had performed entirely " normal "

> body-language, eye-contact, etc., all the while (even when

> systematically ignored, I had apparently done exactly what a " normal "

> person probably WOULD end up doing if systematically ignored) ...

>

> ... so in each case I asked the therapist (and I would still very much

> like to know, as I have asked other therapists and researchers since

> then) -- " What goal does training in 'normal social behavior among

> others' achieve when the others don't even notice the 'behaver'

> successfully carrying out the behaviors so carefully and desperately

> inculcated? " No one, then or recently, has even claimed to have an

> answer.

>

>

> Kate Gladstone

>

[Guest guest]

, it is uncanny what you write about being invisible to everyone and

everything except security. I was just about to get on and write the exact same

thing myself.

I, too, have been with people who didn't believe me (thought I was being

paranoid), and pointed it out to them.

This is a very interesting conversation. Anyone got any ideas on why this

happens, besides Raven's energy idea?

I have long believed many asdians are born without the " charisma " gene, which

results in them not being noticed by people. I read something written by a

father of an asd child, that his child would never get any " free home runs " (is

that the right baseball expression? I'm not American) because of being charming;

he would have to work for everything he achieved. This seems right to me.

> >

> > Re:

> >

> > > Generally, I'm not ignored by clerks or people in line, am one of those

> > > " rude, impatient " people who says 'excuse me, I am next in line " when a

> > > clerk ignores me, or when another customer steps in front of me.

> > > When a clerk has tried to 'look through me', I wave enthusiastically (both

> > > hands) and say " Hi " quite chirpily. (My ethnic background is noted for

it's

> > > gestures and enthusiasm when conversing, plus my impatience with being

> > > ignored out-weighs any fear of being embarassed!)

> >

> > I, too, have often had to resort to this -- however, about 50% of the

> > time it simply fails to work! (The clerk still doesn't see me, even

> > though people nearby or waiting in line behind me sometimes do --

> > children, especially, will " see " me more often than folks past puberty

> > -- and in those cases these witnesses will do their level best to call

> > the clerk's attention to my existence:

> > " Hey, Mister, why're you ringin' up my purchase when the lady

> > right in front of me has been tryin' to catch yer eye with for five

> > solid minutes? "

> > " What lady? Ain't NObody waitin' in front of you, kid, so

> > can-I-help-you,-who's-next? " )

> >

> > The fact that children " see " me more often than the adults in the room

> > has, I fear, made life very hard for some of those children -- e.g.,

> > the time that three kids tried to get the nearest adults to call 911

> > or otherwise " do something " when I started choking on food in an

> > Amtrak dining car occupied only by me, the children, their parents,

> > and the counterman (who didn't " see " me either -- it had taken him

> > about ten minutes to start " seeing " me when I ordered my meal, despite

> > increasingly conspicuous hand-gestures, money in hand, repeated

> > " Excuse me, sir " s, and (yes) eye-contact. Finally, I suppose, I must

> > have somehow activated his " people detector " enough for him to notice

> > my presence -- if so, his " people detector " clicked OFF again during

> > the next few minutes when I left the counter and sat down to eat,

> > because he " un-saw " me once again as I choked.)

> > Anyway, the kids in the room -- who tried so frantically to get

> > their parents' and the counterman's attention -- got only reprimands

> > for it all from their parents and the annoyed counterman -- until

> > finally I managed to self-administer the Heimlich maneuver (bumping my

> > stomach hard into the table) which saved my life and finally got them

> > noticing me ..; but noticing me ONLY as a woman " making a scene for

> > some stupid reason: she's obviously one of those jerks who enjoys

> > doing anything possible to get attention " (the counterman's and the

> > father's view) or " nothing to worry about: they're obviously shooting

> > some kind of movie or advertisement " (the mother's view -- the mother

> > went on to explain to her children that " she obviously is only acting,

> > because if she was really choking to death we would really FEEL that

> > she was choking to death instead of her just looking as if she was ...

> > " )

> >

> > Once I recovered, the counterman " un-saw " me again as I tried to speak

> > to him (and my letter to Amtrak's customer-service division never got

> > a reply). I did, though, speak to the mother and father: praising the

> > children in their parents' presence (because the children had at least

> > TRIED to get help) and, yes, dispraising the parents in their

> > children's presence. (It turned out, during the ensuing conversation,

> > that both of the parents had rather recently renewed their First Aid

> > certifications: as I pointed out, all the First Aid certificates and

> > noble intentions in the world wouldn't do a bit of good if a pair of

> > presumably well-trainedFirst Aiders /a/ didn't notice the opportunity

> > and need for their skills, and /b/ wasted precious minutes trying to

> > hush up anybody present who DID notice!

> >

> > Re:

> >

> > > Many years ago, we lived in a rural village. There was a 'flag stop' for

> > > Greyhound Bus Service at a garage on the main highway.  A passenger could

> > > not book ahead by phoning in, he/she had to wait on the highway, and wave

> > > frantically when the bus was approaching. ...

> >

> > This routinely happens to me with buses or taxis -- and not only in

> > country villages. More and more often these days, I go out-off-doors

> > with a brightly colored,wide-brimmed hat -- specifically so that I can

> > take it off in order to wave it in front of a driver's eyes. (Even a

> > driver who doesn't see me person cannot avoid seeing a two-foot-wide

> > hat frantically waving in and out of his field of vision ... I'd

> > rather stick my arm and hat out into traffic than stick all of me out

> > into traffic!)

> >

> > By the way -- when I've told this sort of thing to

> > therapists/social-skills trainers/etc., most of them indeed regarded

> > these reports as just more signs of my " obvious emotional issues. " Two

> > or three of the more honest ones *did* accept my invitation to " just

> > follow me around and watch this happen " : it didn't take long for them

> > to witness it themselves. (The therapists each said to me that

> > absolutely NOTHING in my behavior could have caused the " ignorals " as

> > I call such incidents -- I had performed entirely " normal "

> > body-language, eye-contact, etc., all the while (even when

> > systematically ignored, I had apparently done exactly what a " normal "

> > person probably WOULD end up doing if systematically ignored) ...

> >

> > ... so in each case I asked the therapist (and I would still very much

> > like to know, as I have asked other therapists and researchers since

> > then) -- " What goal does training in 'normal social behavior among

> > others' achieve when the others don't even notice the 'behaver'

> > successfully carrying out the behaviors so carefully and desperately

> > inculcated? " No one, then or recently, has even claimed to have an

> > answer.

> >

> >

> > Kate Gladstone

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My but this topic has really taken off. Its good to see a discussion about something AS related.

So many points, but I'll just pick a few.

I too tend to be one of those impatient types that will say "excuse me" or otherwise attempt to get someone's attention, most of the time. Something fairly inoffensive that works for me is to look at the person's eyes. This will often cause them to look my way. When they do, a raising of the chin, kind of a reverse nod almost always gets their attention. Something else that works is a cough, backed up by looking at the person in the eye, though coughing is a polite way of summoning someone to an empty counter, as opposed to pounding loudly and calling for assistance.

Interestingly, it is considered rude to call out for service in American restaurants, but it is ok in some other countries. At times I have been ignored for so long that I would go hunting for the server or the manager. A few times I have walked right out because the wait has been so long, sometimes after ordering, though I did pay for any drinks I had already had delivered.

More than a few times I have had police and security look me over when I have been in shopping centers or whatever. Other times I have noticed cameras following me. Word of warning: the watchers don't have much sense of humor when it comes to rude gestures directed at them. Maybe what causes me to stand out is that I am observing my surroundings rather than looking at my feet like most people do. Mostly I try to keep my eyes on the "horizon" since that allows me to see a lot more of what is going on as opposed to staring at one's feet.

A while back there was a discussion about Charisma on a Dungeons and Dragons website. Charisma is one of the main attributes of all beings in D & D. It represents a being's sense of self and strength of personality as well as an indication of physical attractiveness (though some of us use older rules for a separate appearance attribute since a number of hideously ugly monsters also have a high Charisma which makes no sense).

The discussion of Charisma came up when a player wanted to make up an Autistic character. The point of contention was whether Autistics would have a normal Charisma (given how it is defined in the rules) but balanced by disadvantages regarding social situations, or if they should simply get a penalty to it, meaning a lower base number.

My preference was based on my experiences. I stated that a mildly Autistic character, like one with AS, could have a normal Charisma, but with disadvantages. Borrowing from another game system, I said that such a character could have the disadvantages of being oblivious to social situations, prone to misunderstandings in social interactions, be shy and reserved, etc. However, the Charisma would still be normal because one's personal force could be strong and once people actually start to pay attention they sometimes come to see one with respect. A little distracted at the moment so I'm not explaining this too clearly.

I guess my point is that an Autistic person might have Charisma just like anyone else, it is just that they don't know how to actively use it, or conversely may use it defensively such as the invisibility we have been talking about.

Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.

[Guest guest]

Hi Maxxiid,

" Anyone got any ideas on why this happens, besides Raven's energy idea? "

Well the energy idea would explain certain things, however when it comes to

security I wonder if people on the autism spectrum look different in some way

that is obvious to NT's. I know lack of eye contact is often seen as being

'shifty'.

" I'm not American "

I'm from the UK, Yorkshire.

>

> , it is uncanny what you write about being invisible to everyone and

everything except security. I was just about to get on and write the exact same

thing myself.

> I, too, have been with people who didn't believe me (thought I was being

paranoid), and pointed it out to them.

>

> This is a very interesting conversation. Anyone got any ideas on why this

happens, besides Raven's energy idea?

>

> I have long believed many asdians are born without the " charisma " gene, which

results in them not being noticed by people. I read something written by a

father of an asd child, that his child would never get any " free home runs " (is

that the right baseball expression? I'm not American) because of being charming;

he would have to work for everything he achieved. This seems right to me.

>

[Guest guest]

Sometimes, I've " gone invisible " to security staff and/or cops as well

-- though never when I actually might have WANTED to " go invisible. "

Once I accidentally walked (together with my husband, also an Aspie)

halfway through a police-cordoned area on a city sidewalk (under the

noses of at least five heavily armed State Troopers or some such, all

looking right at us, whom we'd taken for oddly unifomed road

repairmen) before all five troopers suddenly " woke up " -- suddenly saw

us for the first time, and DEMANDED to know how we two (each us us

carrying several large and conspicuous packages from nearby stores!)

could POSSIBLY have just suddenly APPEARED in the middle of a heavily

secured area without any of the cops having noticed us until we got

that far!

We avoided arrest ONLY by my fast talking: on the order of: " I might

ask you guys the same question -- since the only possible explanation

would appear to be that all five of you must have been asleep at your

posts: and wouldn't THAT interest the taxpaying public? "

Embarrassed, they let us go: with a final caution (by the head cop to

me and to his team-mates) that " This never happened, all right? "

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate, , and maxxid:

and Kate, sorry for getting your posts mixed up.

My own problems with 'invisibility' are miniscule compared to some of yours that could have been life-threatening, not just an inconvenience.

It's really thought provoking that children could see someone whom adults could not!

(almost as if adults have become dulled to their environment, and tune out what does not 'fit' in their notion of existance.)

Have you been noticed by animals, but not adult humans??

Now I wonder if I have not 'seen' another human being!

the mystery:

what it is that 'cues' people to the real fact that there is a person needing their attention, and what is it that does not cue people to the same fact with other people?

Maybe it is some as yet undiscovered 'energy' like Raven says.

I believe that there are more 'dimensions' than the 4 taught in high school: (length, width, height,and time), and that some beings (a few people, some animals) can percieve or glimpe some of the other dimensions. human kind does not know all that there is to know.

I think invisibility is not that Aspies don't give off the usual cues, behaviours, such as eye contact, particluarly when you have tried to attract someone's attention.

Yet, I would think there would be physical cues, like the Aspie's foot steps, maybe a breeze stirred by them moving, a shadow cast by their blocking the sun or the room light, some kind of presence obstructing the NT's view of objects, the sound of the Aspie's voice (even if for some reason it is not recognized as speech at first)

I certainly don't doubt the validity of your accounts.

Please don't be offended by this, I will be praying for the 3 of you and others who may be invisible when they don't want to, both for physical safety and that you won't have too many stressful incidents.

renaissanzelady

Subject: Re: Re: Stillness.To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Monday, March 16, 2009, 11:48 AM

Sometimes, I've "gone invisible" to security staff and/or cops as well-- though never when I actually might have WANTED to "go invisible."Once I accidentally walked (together with my husband, also an Aspie)halfway through a police-cordoned area on a city sidewalk (under thenoses of at least five heavily armed State Troopers or some such, alllooking right at us, whom we'd taken for oddly unifomed roadrepairmen) before all five troopers suddenly "woke up" -- suddenly sawus for the first time, and DEMANDED to know how we two (each us uscarrying several large and conspicuous packages from nearby stores!)could POSSIBLY have just suddenly APPEARED in the middle of a heavilysecured area without any of the cops having noticed us until we gotthat far!We avoided arrest ONLY by my fast talking: on the order of: "I mightask you guys the same question -- since the only possible explanationwould

appear to be that all five of you must have been asleep at yourposts: and wouldn't THAT interest the taxpaying public?"Embarrassed, they let us go: with a final caution (by the head cop tome and to his team-mates) that "This never happened, all right?"Kate Gladstone

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Guest guest]

I've had the same thing happen--regarding saying something and being ignored,

only to have someone say the same thing a few seconds later. I think it has to

do with our inability to, as my pastor puts it, " sense the natural openings in

conversations. " I know it does for me anyway, which means people automatically

tune me out because I normally interrupt/talk over others.

I've also had the opposite happen, where I can be following along in a

conversation (or think I am) and manage to ask a question or say something that

is exactly what someone else just said. People find that really irritating too

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Renaissanzelady, for your understanding and for your prayers.

Re:

> It's really thought provoking that children could see someone whom adults

> could not!

> (almost as if adults have become dulled to their environment, and tune out

> what does not 'fit' in their notion of existance.)

>

> Have you been noticed by animals, but not adult humans??

Yes, animals notice me just as they'd notice anyone else.

Re:

> ... the mystery:

> what it is that 'cues' people to the real fact that there is a person

> needing their attention, and what is it that does not cue people to the same

> fact with other people?

>

> Maybe it is some as yet undiscovered 'energy' like Raven says. ...

I wish I could accept that explanation, but explaining it as some

special " energy " (that some people radiate and others don't) doesn't

account for the fact that people can " see/hear " me in videos and

recordings when they don't " see/hear " me in person. The video or

sound-recording, after all, doesn't possess life -- and therefore it

presumably wouldn't radiate whatever special " energy " a living person

typically radiates to another person.

(In other words, people who tune me out because they " don't see Kate "

-- or because they somehow " didn't see Kate as actually alive, " or

because " Kate. you only registered as a sort of background object,

like part of the walls or the furniture " [which I have also heard]

should ignore Kate-on-video (not just Kate-right-there) as " not

actually alive " either, because videos/recordings are not actually

alive. If they thought I wasn't alive, and if they know a video isn't

alive, why would they notice a video of me when they couldn't notice

me?)

Re:

> Yet, I would think there would be physical cues, like the Aspie's foot

> steps, maybe a breeze stirred by them moving, a shadow cast by their

> blocking the sun or the room light, some kind of presence obstructing the

> NT's view of objects, the sound of the Aspie's voice (even if for some

> reason it is not recognized as speech at first)

Yes, usually (probably always) such cues appear -- but, again, they

don't register. I have actually had people tell me (when I asked them,

once they finally perceived me affter an invisibility/ " ignoral " event)

that: " Oh, yeah -- come to think of it, I DID actually hear your

footsteps approaching/DID actually hear your voice actually asking

'Excuse me, could you please ring this up? " /DID actually see you

holding out to me a bag of bananas and a five-dollar bill/DID actually

see you walk up from the bus-stop right to the door of my bus/etc.,

etc., but somehow it just didn't 'register' on me that, well, 'Here is

a person' and 'She is moving' and 'She needs to _____[insert task

here]_____. "

I wish I had a dollar for everyone who's told me something like " Sure,

now that I think it over, I actually DID sort of see you approach the

counter/bus/security station, ... now that I think about it, I

actually do recollect seeing somebody on line and trying to get my

attention, but it's like you somehow weren't exactly 'real' to me

during all that, as if I somehow saw you as just somehow 'pretending'

to talk/move/want something, instead of seeing you as someone ACTUALLY

doing all of that. Sorry, but I don't know WHAT was up ... "

Often, this puzzled/apologetic " after-reaction " (when I challenge the

person afterwards) includes the other person explaining that s/he had

somehow thought I was " obviously just an actress rehearsing for a

stage-role " or " obviously someone just practicing memorized English

phrases from a language-learning class/recording " or some other

variation of, well, " just pretending to talk and communicate but not

actually really meaning it or doing it " (a phrase that someone

actually also used to describe his perception of me asking " Is this

the information booth " -- he said: " I didn't think you were asking

that question, although I heard it and I 'sort of' knew it was coming

from somewhere in the direction where you are standing, because it

didn't sound like someone asking for the information booth, it sounded

like someone uttering a sort of 'demonstration version' of exactly how

to say the phrase 'Is this the information booth, as if I [the

booth-manager] was overhearing someone recording the phrase for a

foreign-language tape to teach the correct words and intonations. "

More times than I care to count -- and far more times than I like! --

when I've asked someone a question, he or she has responded NOT by

answering the question, but by saying

" Oh, you speak very good English; you must have studied for many years -- "

(to which I reply: " Yes, ever since my birth to English-speaking parents " )

or else they say

" Your English is absolutely perfect; you sound just like a native-born

American! "

(GOOD GRIEF: I **am** a native-born American!!! And if I actually

speak " just like " one, why would another one *make* *a* *comment*

about it instead of just answering my question?!?!

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Hi :I also have difficulties sensing the natural openings in conversations. I tend to think someone is finished speaking and verbally jump in, when they were only pausing for breath. My daughter copes with this by saying 'let me speak', then I stop and let her continue.This difficulty may help explain why I enjoy participating in a structured meeting, where the chairperson gives permission to speak in an orderly fashion. (I find those 'rules' easier to follow than the 'rules' of casual conversation.)renaissanzeladySubject: Re: Stillness.To:

FAMSecretSociety Received: Monday, March 16, 2009, 2:11 PM

I've had the same thing happen--regarding saying something and being ignored, only to have someone say the same thing a few seconds later. I think it has to do with our inability to, as my pastor puts it, "sense the natural openings in conversations. " I know it does for me anyway, which means people automatically tune me out because I normally interrupt/talk over others.

I've also had the opposite happen, where I can be following along in a conversation (or think I am) and manage to ask a question or say something that is exactly what someone else just said. People find that really irritating too

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Guest guest]

hi Kate;Your detailed reply helped me understand 'invisibility' in a different way.It's almost an invisibility of interaction not a physical invisibility. From now on, I hope to be more aware of those who may be trying to communicate with me.My replies to your individual points are in blue, below your comments.

> Maybe it is some as yet undiscovered 'energy' like Raven says. ...

I wish I could accept that explanation, but explaining it as some

special "energy" (that some people radiate and others don't) doesn't

account for the fact that people can "see/hear" me in videos and

recordings when they don't "see/hear" me in person. The video or

sound-recording, after all, doesn't possess life -- and therefore it

presumably wouldn't radiate whatever special "energy" a living person

typically radiates to another person.

(In other words, people who tune me out because they "don't see Kate"

-- or because they somehow "didn't see Kate as actually alive," or

because "Kate. you only registered as a sort of background object,

like part of the walls or the furniture" [which I have also heard]

should ignore Kate-on-video (not just Kate-right-there) as "not

actually alive" either, because videos/recordings are not actually

alive. If they thought I wasn't alive, and if they know a video isn't

alive, why would they notice a video of me when they couldn't notice

me?)

Possibly there is some subconscious stuff going on, both in the behaviour of the Aspie and in the perceptions of the NT who does not 'see or hear' the Aspie, almost like a subliminal message which the Aspie is not 'sending' but that the NT is cued into receving as a requirement for communication.

OR maybe there are some (as yet unknown) phermones given off and percieved subconsciously by most NT's but not some Aspies. Phermones are air borne hormones given off by many species .

Re:

> Yet, I would think there would be physical cues, like the Aspie's foot

> steps, maybe a breeze stirred by them moving, a shadow cast by their

> blocking the sun or the room light, some kind of presence obstructing the

> NT's view of objects, the sound of the Aspie's voice (even if for some

> reason it is not recognized as speech at first)

Yes, usually (probably always) such cues appear -- but, again, they

don't register. I have actually had people tell me (when I asked them,

once they finally perceived me affter an invisibility/ "ignoral" event)

that: "Oh, yeah -- come to think of it, I DID actually hear your

footsteps approaching/ DID actually hear your voice actually asking

'Excuse me, could you please ring this up?"/DID actually see you

holding out to me a bag of bananas and a five-dollar bill/DID actually

see you walk up from the bus-stop right to the door of my bus/etc.,

etc., but somehow it just didn't 'register' on me that, well, 'Here is

a person' and 'She is moving' and 'She needs to _____[insert task

here]_____."

I wish I had a dollar for everyone who's told me something like "Sure,

now that I think it over, I actually DID sort of see you approach the

counter/bus/ security station, ... now that I think about it, I

actually do recollect seeing somebody on line and trying to get my

attention, but it's like you somehow weren't exactly 'real' to me

during all that, as if I somehow saw you as just somehow 'pretending'

to talk/move/want something, instead of seeing you as someone ACTUALLY

doing all of that. Sorry, but I don't know WHAT was up ... "

Often, this puzzled/apologetic "after-reaction" (when I challenge the

person afterwards) includes the other person explaining that s/he had

somehow thought I was "obviously just an actress rehearsing for a

stage-role" or "obviously someone just practicing memorized English

phrases from a language-learning class/recording" or some other

variation of, well, "just pretending to talk and communicate but not

actually really meaning it or doing it" (a phrase that someone

actually also used to describe his perception of me asking "Is this

the information booth" -- he said: "I didn't think you were asking

that question, although I heard it and I 'sort of' knew it was coming

from somewhere in the direction where you are standing, because it

didn't sound like someone asking for the information booth, it sounded

like someone uttering a sort of 'demonstration version' of exactly how

to say the phrase 'Is this the information booth, as if I [the

booth-manager] was overhearing someone recording the phrase for a

foreign-language tape to teach the correct words and intonations. "

Sometimes immigrants, or those new to a language speak in a very meticulous, careful way. (But I haven't got the 'nerve' to ask some one 'where did you learn English?' or to compliment them on their useage of English unless they FIRST mention to me that English is not their first language.)

More times than I care to count -- and far more times than I like! --

when I've asked someone a question, he or she has responded NOT by

answering the question, but by saying

"Oh, you speak very good English; you must have studied for many years -- "

(to which I reply: "Yes, ever since my birth to English-speaking parents")

or else they say

"Your English is absolutely perfect; you sound just like a native-born

American!"

(GOOD GRIEF: I **am** a native-born American!!! And if I actually

speak "just like" one, why would another one *make* *a* *comment*

about it instead of just answering my question?!?!

Kate GladstonePeople are distractable....thus focussing on how a question is spoken rather than the point of the question!!!One of the counsellors who I consulted for help in interpersonal relatinships, said that I am VERY focused, and task oriented, and that may intimidate some people, he suggested that I lighten up. renaissanzelady

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Guest guest]

To the member (?) who said that her school lessons defined

" dimension " as meaning only the dimensions of length, width, height,

and time -- I don't know any scientist who actually limits

" dimensions " to just those four. For example, a scientist would say

that a series of crayons in a box differ along the dimension of color

-- several glasses of water (hot, warm, tepid, cool, cold) differ

along the dimension of temperature -- etc.: " dimension " means " some

property you can measure. "

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

Thank you. I'll go into a little more detail on Charisma using the game rules since they provide a good framework for the discussion.

Most of my comments will be at the end.

First off, in D & D, ability scores typically run from 3 to 18 with 9 to 10 being the human average. Anything higher gets bonuses but lower gets penalties, that is bonuses and penalties to situations using those scores.

Dungeons and Dragons, version 3.5, defines Charisma as:

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, now merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

In a description of how the scores work in practice:

A character with high Charisma may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident. A character with high Charisma but low Intelligence can usually pass herself off as knowledgeable, until she meets a true expert. A charismatic character with low Wisdom may be popular, but she doesn't know who her real friends are. A charismatic character lacking in both Intelligence and Wisdom is likely to be shallow and unaware of other's feelings. A character with low Charisma may be reserved, gruff, rude, fawning, or simply nondescript.

+ Now, you can see how there would be some confusion over Charisma and Autism, particularly as to if someone with ASD should get a penalty to a basic score or if there should be penalties in the application of those scores in certain situations. However, the wording leave a lot of room. One could have a strong personality and sense of self even though one is awkward in social settings and may even be socially invisible.+

Charisma and social situations are better defined in another system called Generic Universal Role Playing System. This game lacks a particular Charisma attribute. In it everyone is assumed to be more or less equal, unless you take certain Advantages or Disadvantages. Those can be things like Attractiveness or Ugliness, traits that can make one a social butterfly or a someone totally clueless. Now, there are so many of these in different variations that I'm not going to list them all, however, I will mention a couple that bear on this discussion.

Charisma (Advantage) This is the natural ability to impress and lead others. Anyone can acquire a semblance of Charisma by good looks, good manners and intelligence - but real Charisma works independently of these things, and you either have it or you don't. It affects any reaction roll made by any intelligent creature.

Shyness (Disadvantage) You are uncomfortable around strangers. This disadvantage come in three grades: mild, severe and crippling.

Mild Shyness: Somewhat uncomfortable around strangers, especially assertive or attractive ones. -1 penalty on any skill that requires you to deal with the public - in particular Acting, Bard, Carousing, Diplomacy, Fast-talk, Leadership, Merchant, Politics, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, Streetwise and Teaching.

Severe shyness: Very uncomfortable around strangers and tends to be quiet even among friends. -2 penalty on social skills

Crippling Shyness: Avoids strangers whenever possible. Incapable of public speaking. May not learn skills dealing with the public.

There are traits that I'm not going into like Cluelessness, Obliviousness, etc., but all have a positive or negative influence on social skills.

Now, what I find interesting about all of this is how Charisma can be faked for bad purposes and also how people can be assumed NOT to have it because they are standoffish. D & D, being a fairly simple system, doesn't go into as much detail in the core rules, but there are supplements that have more detail and include some traits, but I don't have access to that one right now. GURPS is far more detailed in these things, and it is much easier to simulate someone with a high charisma and personal strength but not have a social clue.

My point here is that it is possible for someone to have great strength of personality and sense of self, but be very socially awkward and reserved.

On the other hand, the D & D description of low Charisma could also apply to other kinds of mental disorders that a person with a high Charisma could have. Many serial killers and sexual predators tend to be charismatic and able to lull their victims into a false sense of security.

So my main point is that it is possible for someone to have a strong personality and Charisma but be a social nobody.

, what you wrote about charisma is really good. It makes perfect sense to me. You write about it far better than I did. Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.

[Guest guest]

Hi renaissancelady (sorry for the mis-spelling).

There is certainly something going on that makes nts not notice asdians.

I was speaking about this today to my good friend. He is an aspie. He is also

6'4 " and weighs about 125kgs. When I mentioned the thing about the doors he said

this also happens to him – and he is a big guy.

We have also both spoken in the past about walking into people who are coming

the opposite way. This happens to both of us regularly. We can't read the body

signs telling us which side the person is going to move on, so if they don't go

to the usual side (on the right here), we end up bumping into them, or playing a

game of shuffle with them.

, what you wrote about charisma is really good. It makes perfect sense to

me. You write about it far better than I did.

> > Maybe it is some as yet undiscovered 'energy' like Raven says. ...

>

>

>

> I wish I could accept that explanation, but explaining it as some

>

> special " energy " (that some people radiate and others don't) doesn't

>

> account for the fact that people can " see/hear " me in videos and

>

> recordings when they don't " see/hear " me in person. The video or

>

> sound-recording, after all, doesn't possess life -- and therefore it

>

> presumably wouldn't radiate whatever special " energy " a living person

>

> typically radiates to another person.

>

> (In other words, people who tune me out because they " don't see Kate "

>

> -- or because they somehow " didn't see Kate as actually alive, " or

>

> because " Kate. you only registered as a sort of background object,

>

> like part of the walls or the furniture " [which I have also heard]

>

> should ignore Kate-on-video (not just Kate-right-there) as " not

>

> actually alive " either, because videos/recordings are not actually

>

> alive. If they thought I wasn't alive, and if they know a video isn't

>

> alive, why would they notice a video of me when they couldn't notice

>

> me?)

>

> Possibly there is some subconscious stuff going on,    both in the behaviour

of the Aspie and in the perceptions of the NT who does not 'see or hear' the

Aspie,                                                                          

              almost like a subliminal message which the Aspie is not 'sending'

but that the NT is cued into receving as a requirement for communication.      

       

>                                                                        OR

maybe there are some (as yet unknown) phermones given off and percieved

subconsciously by most NT's but not some Aspies.    Phermones are air borne

hormones given off by many species .

                                                                                \

                                       

>

> Re:

>

> > Yet, I would think there would be physical cues, like the Aspie's foot

>

> > steps, maybe a breeze stirred by them moving, a shadow cast by their

>

> > blocking the sun or the room light, some kind of presence obstructing the

>

> > NT's view of objects, the sound of the Aspie's voice (even if for some

>

> > reason it is not recognized as speech at first)

>

>

>

> Yes, usually (probably always) such cues appear -- but, again, they

>

> don't register. I have actually had people tell me (when I asked them,

>

> once they finally perceived me affter an invisibility/ " ignoral " event)

>

> that: " Oh, yeah -- come to think of it, I DID actually hear your

>

> footsteps approaching/ DID actually hear your voice actually asking

>

> 'Excuse me, could you please ring this up? " /DID actually see you

>

> holding out to me a bag of bananas and a five-dollar bill/DID actually

>

> see you walk up from the bus-stop right to the door of my bus/etc.,

>

> etc., but somehow it just didn't 'register' on me that, well, 'Here is

>

> a person' and 'She is moving' and 'She needs to _____[insert task

>

> here]_____. "

>

>

>

> I wish I had a dollar for everyone who's told me something like " Sure,

>

> now that I think it over, I actually DID sort of see you approach the

>

> counter/bus/ security station, ... now that I think about it, I

>

> actually do recollect seeing somebody on line and trying to get my

>

> attention, but it's like you somehow weren't exactly 'real' to me

>

> during all that, as if I somehow saw you as just somehow 'pretending'

>

> to talk/move/want something, instead of seeing you as someone ACTUALLY

>

> doing all of that. Sorry, but I don't know WHAT was up ... "

>

>

>

> Often, this puzzled/apologetic " after-reaction " (when I challenge the

>

> person afterwards) includes the other person explaining that s/he had

>

> somehow thought I was " obviously just an actress rehearsing for a

>

> stage-role " or " obviously someone just practicing memorized English

>

> phrases from a language-learning class/recording " or some other

>

> variation of, well, " just pretending to talk and communicate but not

>

> actually really meaning it or doing it " (a phrase that someone

>

> actually also used to describe his perception of me asking " Is this

>

> the information booth " -- he said: " I didn't think you were asking

>

> that question, although I heard it and I 'sort of' knew it was coming

>

> from somewhere in the direction where you are standing, because it

>

> didn't sound like someone asking for the information booth, it sounded

>

> like someone uttering a sort of 'demonstration version' of exactly how

>

> to say the phrase 'Is this the information booth, as if I [the

>

> booth-manager] was overhearing someone recording the phrase for a

>

> foreign-language tape to teach the correct words and intonations. "

>

> Sometimes immigrants, or those new to a language  speak in a very meticulous,

careful  way.  (But I haven't got the 'nerve' to ask some one 'where did you

learn English?' or to compliment them on their useage of English unless they

FIRST mention to me that English is not their first language.)

>

> More times than I care to count -- and far more times than I like! --

>

> when I've asked someone a question, he or she has responded NOT by

>

> answering the question, but by saying

>

> " Oh, you speak very good English; you must have studied for many years -- "

>

>

>

> (to which I reply: " Yes, ever since my birth to English-speaking parents " )

>

>

>

> or else they say

>

> " Your English is absolutely perfect; you sound just like a native-born

>

> American! "

>

>

>

> (GOOD GRIEF: I **am** a native-born American!!! And if I actually

>

> speak " just like " one, why would another one *make* *a* *comment*

>

> about it instead of just answering my question?!?!

>

>

>

> Kate GladstonePeople are distractable....thus focussing on how a question is

spoken rather than the point of the question!!!

> One of the counsellors who I consulted for help in interpersonal relatinships,

said that I am VERY focused, and task oriented, and that may intimidate  some

people, he suggested that I lighten up.

>

> renaissanzelady

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> __________________________________________________________________

> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo!

Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

>

[Guest guest]

hi kate:It was me, renaissanzelady, who spoke of 4 dimensions,

it would have been clearer to define them as 'space-time dimensions."

I was in High School in the 1960's, so that may shed some light on my knowledge or lack thereof!

Today dimensions in physics are considered differently:

1) An excerpt from this Grad Stuident's Web site:

http://www.cbloom.com/physics/dimensions.html

"Higher dimensions in physics?

Don't be shocked by the idea that the universe has more spacte-time dimensions than four. When someone once told me that string theory only works in 26 dimensions (it's now 11, btw), the common response among my undergrad fellows was "that's absurd - the universe is 4 dimensional, and any theory in 26 dimensions is so far removed that it must be nonsense". Well, we must think about it more carefully. Is our common experience really four dimensional? (or 3 dimensional, seen as a movie). Lets use Heisenberg's and Einstein's "Positivist" method : don't assume anything unless you can actually measure it. So, why how can we assume that the universe is 4-d ? Well, what does it really mean for something to live in higher d? There are a couple of ways to think about it. One is, if it is left alone in empty space, it doesn't spontaneously change (except for uniform translation along a geodesic). We can see that this is violated if we choose the wrong dimensionality for our guess : if we look at 2-d space, in which we really have a 3-d ball, then the uniform translation of that 3-d ball will make it appear to grow and shrink in our 2-d guess. Thus it is not simply translating in our 2-d space, so that must be the wrong dimensionality. Right? This is a nice physical way to say what dimension we are in. ..."

2) an excerpt from a complex analysis and new definition of 4 dimensions.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~bcb/rietdijk26.html

"Four-dimensional Reality and its Coherence

An Outline of Rietdijk's Theory on Physics

C.W. Rietdijk, D.Sc. Truth can be recognized by its simplicity and its beauty. Feynman Abstract

We prove from relativity theory that the world is realistically four-dimensional; the future is, and it is determined. It even contributes backwards in time to what happens now: natural law too acts in four dimensions. A new, four-dimensional, concept of distance is introduced in which "occurring" (action) rather than objects (measuring rods) is essential. It explains the quantum-mechanical nonlocality paradoxes, such as the wavelike manifestation of particles and the intriguing paradox of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen. From the above, Planck's "quantum of action" h can be conceived as a realistic four-dimensional "atom of occurring". The existence in time of particles and all other processes are constituted by such quanta. ......."

To the member (?) who said that her school lessons defined"dimension" as meaning only the dimensions of length, width, height,and time -- I don't know any scientist who actually limits"dimensions" to just those four. For example, a scientist would saythat a series of crayons in a box differ along the dimension of color-- several glasses of water (hot, warm, tepid, cool, cold) differalong the dimension of temperature -- etc.: "dimension" means "someproperty you can measure."Kate Gladstone

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Guest guest]

> > Seems that ASD people have to make a lot of noise and move around alot to be

noticed by NTs and electronic devices.

>

>

> Yes -- and when we generate enough noises and motions to have a

> fighting chance of getting the rest of the world to notice us, the

> rest of the world calls it " inappropriate behavior " ...

>

>

> Kate Gladstone

>

We are taught as children to be patient and wait your turn, however if you do

this all you get is to wait while rude people go first (happens to me allll the

time)

[Guest guest]

>

> , it is uncanny what you write about being invisible to everyone and

everything except security. I was just about to get on and write the exact same

thing myself.

> I, too, have been with people who didn't believe me (thought I was being

paranoid), and pointed it out to them.

>

> This is a very interesting conversation. Anyone got any ideas on why this

happens, besides Raven's energy idea?

>

in my case I look down a lot and seem to avoid people, while shopping, when I am

focused I get odd stares. when I go to a shop and i am not certain what I am

looking for (have to find a dress for an event, or a childs event) I look

scattered and confused, then people attack me and tell me I look lost.

also I dress like a child often so people follow me (kinda like a old 12 year

old) I think we just don't fit the norm in so many ways we end up standing out

and looking suspicious. (in reality sometimes security just likes to watch

people out of boredom) I knew a guy who just looked at girls he thought were

pretty (perhaps they are just staring because you seem interesting or

attractive)

I have had many people follow me around when I was younger for that reason. I

think we look non-threatening and people aren't suspicious at all as much as

nosy

[Guest guest]

Hi maxxiid:You wrote (excerpted):However, there is always a physical, mental and emotional price to pay

for prolonged use of the "mask". For eg, for several months I had the

mask on and did a lot of socialising, fooling myself once again into

believing I was "normal". I have recently hit the wall, so to speak,

and am currently finding it very hard to do even the basic niceties

when I see people, am finding eye contact (even my scant version of it)

all but impossible, and am finding I am unable to cloak my feelings in

warm fuzzy terms.

YES!!! There is a price to pay for use of the mask!! Possibly asidans, Aspies, introverts and certain others may be more honest and aware of the strain that wearing a mask puts on the wearer. I think that there is a price to pay for anyone who wears a mask, including extroverts and NT's, many of whom wear their masks like a second skin!You wrote, excerpted: After so many years of this pattern, one would think I would learn!"Hope springs eternal in the human breast." Only in the past 5-10 years, have I realized that I need to 'budget' my face-time interaction with humans!! (My learning process started about 10 years before that, it was a slow process, because I had few introvert mentors to counsel me. Most of my introvert friends at the time all wore the extrovert mask (even with their families) to some extent. (I am in my mid 50's)Example of 'budgeting' my contact: when I am busier at work; assisting in 'reception' or 'recruiting' door to door, I spend less face-time interaction during my breaks or after work. It was around the same time that I started to realize that there was nothing

'defective' about me because I am an introvert. Maybe until then I harbored a secret shame about being different.I am not as 'drained" from formal meetings or structured group settings, because I 'know the rules," whereas unstructured stuff

involves more small talk and thinking on my feet, while simultaneuosly being tactful. Also dialoguing 'one-on-one' involves feeling more 'on stage' whereas in a group, I can be 'in the background' when I have nothing to say.My background,I am an extreme introvert, possess many traits of Aspergers Syndrome, am a contract worker, 5 years ago converted to one of the Historic Churches of Christendom.Maxxiid, hopefully you will have 'space' to recover from too much wearing of a mask!renaissanzelady

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

[Guest guest]

I've noticed this too. My solution to this is to take the one step to the side and stop. This avoids that strange "dance" of going back and forth. Another solution is to prevent it from happening in the first place. By pretending to be interested in something, you can step out of the way before the person reaches you and they go by. Also, you can just stop motion for them to pass with a simple hand gesture. It works best to keep this simple and not ham it up since they might see that as an insult.

In a message dated 3/23/2009 12:53:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

This happens to me also. I usually move further to the right to avoid people, and the result is people walking directly into my path, even though THEY cut to the right when trying to avoid other people.Administrator Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.

[Guest guest]

Normally I don't talk to people. Most of the time I acknowledge their presence by not running into them. Other times, if I make eye contact, a simple nod of the head is enough acknowledgement for most people. I will say this though: the nod seems to be a "guy thing," while women prefer a smile, maybe along with the nod. That can get touchy though so I generally prefer to avoid eye contact with women unless I know them.

In a message dated 3/23/2009 1:44:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

If I had it my way, I would not talk to other people unless absolutely necessary, I would have no eye contact with them, and would not even acknowledge their existence. This would not be some sort of deliberate snub. It is just easier for me not to have contact with people. Administrator Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.