Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Ed, I should qualify my remarks: I think the type of experience s describes--a dramatic change in the amount and type of activity, e.g. from a lot of aerobic activity to much less aerobic activity and much more anaerobic activity--could produce dramatic gains in muscle mass, especially in a very young person. Similarly, if one purposely dehydrated and glycogen-depleted and then corrected. However, I don't think that an experienced, drug free athlete, following some type of intelligent program and looking for further gains can expect to make dramatic gains in lean muscle mass. It is interesting to note that professional bodybuilders, who probably are as well-versed as anyone regarding ways to gain muscle and lose fat, always (as far as I know) go through a bulking cycle and a dieting ( " leaning " ) cycle because gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously is almost impossible. However, I mentioned a study of overweight policemen who did just that--gained muscle and lost fat during the same 12-week period--following a " hypocaloric, " " non-lipogenic " diet. I shouldn't be talking about studies that I haven't read firsthand (I haven't been able to obtain a copy), but I am including a comment by Berardi about the study. My point, pursuant to our discussion, is that, yes, dramatic changes in lifestyle can result in dramatic changes in body composition. However, those of us who have been following an actual program of diet and exercise over a period of years are not likely to make dramatic improvements in body composition by changing to a HIT routine, a 20-rep squat program, etc. Regarding the study *http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/leaneating_1.htm* " In a study by Demling et al (2000), the researchers demonstrated that food choice and timing could be more important than total calorie intake. Before the study began, overweight police officers, eating about 2100 to 2300kcal per day, tipped the scales at 216lbs with 56lbs of fat mass (25% fat) and 158lbs of lean mass. They were eating about 74g protein, 380g carbs, and 56g fat. Since this is clearly a hypocaloric diet, they should've been losing weight. But they weren't. Unfortunately for these poor guys, they were eating only 10% of their calories at breakfast and a whopping 50% of their calories right before bed. In addition, 50% of their carb intake was sugar! After diet counseling, these guys still ate the same diet in terms of macronutrients, but they ate 70% of their calories during the active parts of their day and 80% of their carb intake was complex and low on the GI scale. At the end of twelve weeks these guys lost 3lbs of weight and 5lbs of fat while gaining 2lbs of lean mass. And this was without changing exercise habits! While these changes weren't huge, it's clear that food choices and timing make a difference. " Regards, J. Pitruzzello, Ph.D. Chicago, Illinois > , > > The subject did say that he started the program at an unnaturally low > weight for himself due to travel, focus on martial arts and diet. A good > 10-15 lbs or so might have just been getting his body back to his normal > weight and the balance from heavy training, protein, creatine, etc. He > claims no steroids were involved. > > I suppose if we starved Arnold down from 225 to 185 and then turned him > loose in the food line and gym he could have put on 40 lbs of muscle in a > year. > > Ed White > Sandwich, MA USA > > > > Subject: Re: Geek to Freak?? > To: Supertraining > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 8:50 PM > > Ed, > > No, I don't think it's possible. I've seen Ellington Darden's > claims > (e.g.,The New High Intensity Training, p.201) and, frankly, I don't believe > those claims either). Based on the research I have seen, Lyle Mc is > credible when he says, " First year, you might see 20-25 lbs in a male > trainee doing it right. Second year perhaps half that (10-12 pound more). > Third year, half again (5-6 pounds). At that point (about 40 lbs lean body > mass gained), you're near your genetic limits and you'll be fighting to > significant amounts much past that. " > > http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass\ -gain.html > > I seem to recall someone telling me that Arnold Schwarzenegger, in one of > his books, said that an experienced, drug free athlete who gains 5 lbs of > lean muscle mass in a year is doing well. > > Right now, I'm doing some research on the relation between nutrition and > muscle gain. You might enjoy this quote from Conan s about > bodybuilder Vic s: > > *My old training partner Mr Universe Wingett used to say - if you > want to look like Victor s then you have to eat like Victor > s. > Back then Victor s was the biggest thing the bodybuilding world had > ever seen and he used to eat a truck load. <#_ftn1> One friend was with > him > on his tour of Australia and they went to get something to eat. Victor > s grabbed 10 meat pies as a snack, then he ordered pastries on top. > For a meal my friends (IFBB Judges at the time) said he ate 1kg of rice at > each sitting and a great slab of meat with it. Now that is a bodybuilding > diet … If you want to get big you need to EAT BIG.* > > I don't know about " 10 meat pies, " but there does seem to be some > consensus > that one has to " overfeed " and accept some fat to gain muscle, then > diet > down to lose the fat. However, I'm interested in a study by Demling and > DeSanti that reports simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss in overweight > police officers. > > > H. Demling, DeSanti. Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased > Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss > in Overweight Police Officers. *ls of Nutrition & > Metabolism*2000;44:21-29 (DOI: 10.1159/000012817). > > http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract & ArtikelNr=\ 12817 & Ausgabe=224619 & ProduktNr=223977 > > I've been trying to get a copy of the full study. The sample sizes were > small, but it's the only " credible " study I have seen where > people were > reported (1) to have gained muscle mass on a reduced calorie diet and (2) > to > have gained muscle and lost fat simultaneously. If anyone has information > in that area, or a full copy of the Demling DeSanti study, I'd love to see > it. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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