Regarding ABA, A dissenting voice

[Guest guest]

I am new to this group. This is my first post. My six year old

daughter has AS or HFA, depending on whom you ask. She has never

received ABA or DTT. I don't believe either is appropriate as a

general intervention method for autism. For background information on

my daughter, details of her intervention program, an overview of

Stanley Greenspan's Floor Time, and the reasons why we do not use

ABA, visit my web site, which is site #22 on the Asperger's Web Ring.

The site address is http://home.sprintmail.com/~janettevance/

I read a post recently from a mother who was concerned about ABA

burnout. If she or anyone else is interested in approaches to Autism

other than ABA, I would be glad to hear from them. My Floor Time

section, if I do say so myself, is the best on the web. There is also

a means of opening a chat window directly from my site. If I am

online, you can chat with me directly from my web site.

Janette

[Guest guest]

Dear Shanna, I love to learn new things every day, I have learned a great

deal today. On Janette's site ,tells reasons she chosen one program over

another . So I checked them both out. Janette's Floor time program said

" creative, warm, loving and joyful child ( is already ) the ABA said

" carefully programmed ,constructive ,interactions with the environment.

that is what I do and did not know what it was called. ) is not

high functioning or AS ,she is a wonderful , very creativity,loving sweet

girl who needs help with interactions with in her environment. I was

wondering ,about your daughter ? Is she AS ,High functioning ? is

very routine in everything she does.I very carefully program our day just

about down to the minute. is doing quite good. How is your daughter

doing on the ABA and how old is she .How long has she being doing ABA ?

Sorry for so many questions, but this has opened another great can of worms

for me Sincerely, and thanks , Donna ( mom to 14 autism and

7 )

-----------------------------------------------------

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Re: Regarding ABA, A dissenting voice

>

>

>YOU WROTE:

>

>

>I am new to this group. This is my first post. My six year old

>daughter has AS or HFA, depending on whom you ask. She has never

>received ABA or DTT. I don't believe either is appropriate as a

>general intervention method for autism. For background information on

>my daughter, details of her intervention program, an overview of

>Stanley Greenspan's Floor Time, and the reasons why we do not use

>ABA, visit my web site, which is site #22 on the Asperger's Web Ring.

>The site address is http://home.sprintmail.com/~janettevance/

>I read a post recently from a mother who was concerned about ABA

>burnout. If she or anyone else is interested in approaches to Autism

>other than ABA, I would be glad to hear from them. My Floor Time

>section, if I do say so myself, is the best on the web. There is also

>a means of opening a chat window directly from my site. If I am

>online, you can chat with me directly from my web site.

>

>Janette

>__________

>Janette,

>

>Of course, this was your opinion that you expressed on this list regarding

>ABA. I am a mother who made the decision to do it for my daughter and seen

>incredible results. Regardless of YOUR opinion, there are others who

>frequent this list who have had very POSITIVE experiences with ABA. I felt

>as I read your web site that you have a militant view regarding ABA. Of

>course, you have a right to your opinion but I wanted mine posted as one

>mother and daughter who benefited greatly from behavior modification!

>

>ASHLEY'S mom

>Shanna

>

>p.s. Since you havent tried ABA with your daughter...how can you comment on

>something you havent yet experienced????

>

>

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[Guest guest]

It's too bad that you have such strong opinions about a therapy that you know

nothing about!!!!!! I have a daughter that has been doing Lovaas ABA for 18

months now and is in a typical preschool, with typical children and making

many friends that come to play and know nothing about her autism. She has a

sense of humor, loves life, and the people that still do DTT with her and is

as much a full member of our family as any of the other 3 children that we

have. There has been no aversives, just fun and uplifting interaction. A web

site like yours is a shame! Why not just promote your beliefs in Greenspan

without the debate about who is right or wrong. Although I agree that I want

my child to be accepted into the community regardless of her behaviors and

other differences that might make a child with autism stand out, reality is

that to function in this world being more typical is just easier for a child

than to try and educate the world to love and accept my child regardless of

how she acts.

I for one will forever be thankful for Dr. Lovaas, Maurice, and

ABA! The misconceptions out there totally astound me. Prior to your post I

have not had any feelings toward the Greenspan method but now I can say I'm

glad I didn't pursue it!

[Guest guest]

YOU WROTE:

I am new to this group. This is my first post. My six year old

daughter has AS or HFA, depending on whom you ask. She has never

received ABA or DTT. I don't believe either is appropriate as a

general intervention method for autism. For background information on

my daughter, details of her intervention program, an overview of

Stanley Greenspan's Floor Time, and the reasons why we do not use

ABA, visit my web site, which is site #22 on the Asperger's Web Ring.

The site address is http://home.sprintmail.com/~janettevance/

I read a post recently from a mother who was concerned about ABA

burnout. If she or anyone else is interested in approaches to Autism

other than ABA, I would be glad to hear from them. My Floor Time

section, if I do say so myself, is the best on the web. There is also

a means of opening a chat window directly from my site. If I am

online, you can chat with me directly from my web site.

Janette

__________

Janette,

Of course, this was your opinion that you expressed on this list regarding

ABA. I am a mother who made the decision to do it for my daughter and seen

incredible results. Regardless of YOUR opinion, there are others who

frequent this list who have had very POSITIVE experiences with ABA. I felt

as I read your web site that you have a militant view regarding ABA. Of

course, you have a right to your opinion but I wanted mine posted as one

mother and daughter who benefited greatly from behavior modification!

ASHLEY'S mom

Shanna

p.s. Since you havent tried ABA with your daughter...how can you comment on

something you havent yet experienced????

[Guest guest]

I don't have a problem with people on the listserve promoting or advocating

for one therapy modality or another, but, when they outright slam something

that has worked for so many, it bothers me. Why can't everyone here just be

helpful and say what has worked for them? Oh well, opinions are everywhere,

I guess!

--

Visit our website at onnetmall.com/mall/sistersdiscjockey

You can get paid for surfin' the 'net like I do! Visit alladvantage.com

and use my I.D. # IME-345 or adsavers.com and use my email address of

lmuzic@... as your referral

[Guest guest]

Hi Janette!

I love your post and your website! Ditto, girlfriend! I especially

love the creative application of the red universal no sign! <g>

While this isn't a forum for an ABA debate, it seems no matter what list

your on or no matter what meeting you attend people have STRONG feelings

one way or the other. Geez, this is like the stay-home mom/working mom

debate, only worse!

The JASH journal from fall 1999 has all articles on autism. It's got

all the big guy's papers on everything from ABA to Greenspan to Pivotal

Response to parent comments. (Glaringly absent is an article on visual

strategies...or maybe it's an " understood " as an integral and necessary

part of any method) If you read it cover to cover, you end feeling like

different kids need different things and the KEY to it all is what jives

with your family's culture.

Some families are driven by tangible results and they need to see

percentages in notebooks to prove progress; some parents focus on the

overall quality of life and may sacrifice the acquisition of some

specific splinter skills.

Our family is into value, belonging, dignity, and community. What is

the most threatening to me as a parent of children who are simply

included (very successfully) as a result of the floor time type of early

intervention, is when I hear a 7 year old typical child at our school

telling the kid who does the ABA thing, " Good walking, good quiet mouth,

do this, etc. " at recess!!!!! (I was wondering if she had goldfish in

her pocket!) The children model the attitude and words they see the

adults/teachers use. Would we ever hear that typical little girl talk

to a typical friend like that? NO! The relief came for me when that

kid's aide curiously asked my daughter's teacher what special program my

daughter does to have accomplished so much academically and

socially....the teacher replied, " ummm, inclusion...we treat her like

everyone else. "

What also confuses me is when a kid spends years drilling on toddler or

preschool level social and academic skills. One of the parent reviews

in the JASH journal talked about how her kid pointed to green 4000+

times, and he still is a person who can has no usable skills and remains

socially inappropriate. Whether your kid is in the subgroup of kids

who are wired for a high/mid/low degree of progress, what's important is

that the kid do the best he can with what he's got. At some point it's

important to recognize it's time to move on and try new twists. There

are many ABA people who get this, but also many who do not. The ABA

purists can't break out and really make a rigid name for the flexible

ABA people out there.

My thing is whatever you do, do it with respect and dignity, do it no

differently than if you were doing it for the typically developing

sibling, recognize ability no matter how non traditional, and get and

keep your vision for your child in your heart when making decisions on

the LIFE God trusted you with.

The Inclusion Fairy

(who is raising (not training) 2 kids, who happen to fall on different

places on the AU spectrum, to be caring contributing members of their

community)

[Guest guest]

You are passing judgement, telling others what to do, and quite frankly

saying hurtful things about the parents who have chosen ABA for their child.

Not all of the children speak in a rote fashion, or perform for 'goldfish'.

I strongly suggest you open your mind and attempt to lighten up on those who

have chosen a different path for their child. Besides all of that, I don't

recall anyone asking your (not so humble) opinion.

My daughter went through a very effective ABA program and is also fully

included.

Is she perfect? Does she always 'blend " ? Absolutely not. It's not because

of the types of therapies I persued for her, but because her particular

impairments have persevered throughout everything we've tried. Autism is a

SPECTRUM disorder, and nothing burns me more than someone who has a

high-functioning child, or a 'recovery' story, and credits a certain therapy

for it, then goes on to shake their finger at those who haven't done the

exact same thing for their child. That's not nice and I don't care to read

it on a list that's supposed to be supportive.

Re: Regarding ABA, A dissenting voice

>From: incfairy@...

>

>Hi Janette!

>

>I love your post and your website! Ditto, girlfriend! I especially

>love the creative application of the red universal no sign! <g>

>

>While this isn't a forum for an ABA debate, it seems no matter what list

>your on or no matter what meeting you attend people have STRONG feelings

>one way or the other. Geez, this is like the stay-home mom/working mom

>debate, only worse!

>

>The JASH journal from fall 1999 has all articles on autism. It's got

>all the big guy's papers on everything from ABA to Greenspan to Pivotal

>Response to parent comments. (Glaringly absent is an article on visual

>strategies...or maybe it's an " understood " as an integral and necessary

>part of any method) If you read it cover to cover, you end feeling like

>different kids need different things and the KEY to it all is what jives

>with your family's culture.

>

>Some families are driven by tangible results and they need to see

>percentages in notebooks to prove progress; some parents focus on the

>overall quality of life and may sacrifice the acquisition of some

>specific splinter skills.

>

>Our family is into value, belonging, dignity, and community. What is

>the most threatening to me as a parent of children who are simply

>included (very successfully) as a result of the floor time type of early

>intervention, is when I hear a 7 year old typical child at our school

>telling the kid who does the ABA thing, " Good walking, good quiet mouth,

>do this, etc. " at recess!!!!! (I was wondering if she had goldfish in

>her pocket!) The children model the attitude and words they see the

>adults/teachers use. Would we ever hear that typical little girl talk

>to a typical friend like that? NO! The relief came for me when that

>kid's aide curiously asked my daughter's teacher what special program my

>daughter does to have accomplished so much academically and

>socially....the teacher replied, " ummm, inclusion...we treat her like

>everyone else. "

>

>What also confuses me is when a kid spends years drilling on toddler or

>preschool level social and academic skills. One of the parent reviews

>in the JASH journal talked about how her kid pointed to green 4000+

>times, and he still is a person who can has no usable skills and remains

>socially inappropriate. Whether your kid is in the subgroup of kids

>who are wired for a high/mid/low degree of progress, what's important is

>that the kid do the best he can with what he's got. At some point it's

>important to recognize it's time to move on and try new twists. There

>are many ABA people who get this, but also many who do not. The ABA

>purists can't break out and really make a rigid name for the flexible

>ABA people out there.

>

>My thing is whatever you do, do it with respect and dignity, do it no

>differently than if you were doing it for the typically developing

>sibling, recognize ability no matter how non traditional, and get and

>keep your vision for your child in your heart when making decisions on

>the LIFE God trusted you with.

>

>The Inclusion Fairy

>(who is raising (not training) 2 kids, who happen to fall on different

>places on the AU spectrum, to be caring contributing members of their

>community)

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as

>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.

>Apply NOW!

>http://click./1/2121/3/_/475156/_/953009006/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I totally agree with you. Autism isn't something that can be easily defined

or presents itself the same way twice. So with all our kids having

different symptoms and functioning at different levels, we need to be

tolerant of may different therapies. What works for one may or may not work

for another.

We are using a combination of things with our daughter -- ABA, Floortime,

diet, and biomedical (supplements and secretin). I really believe that all

these things together are what's making the difference and that this is the

right approach to take with her.

joy

Mom of , 4 1/2

------------ Previous Message from " M. Muzic " on

03/13/2000 10:13:28 PM ----------

Please respond to Autism_in_Girlsonelist

To: Autism_in_Girlsonelist

cc:

Subject: Re: Regarding ABA, A dissenting voice

I don't have a problem with people on the listserve promoting or advocating

for one therapy modality or another, but, when they outright slam something

that has worked for so many, it bothers me. Why can't everyone here just

be

helpful and say what has worked for them? Oh well, opinions are

everywhere,

I guess!

--

Visit our website at onnetmall.com/mall/sistersdiscjockey

You can get paid for surfin' the 'net like I do! Visit alladvantage.com

and use my I.D. # IME-345 or adsavers.com and use my email address of

lmuzic@... as your referral

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[Guest guest]

All right ladies, I think we should all agree to disagree on what

educational programs are the most effective. They are all effective. It

depends on the child.

I love greenspan's floortime method.

I love ABA.

We use a combination of both with good results.

I have been reading the posts, and I am appalled by what some people are

reading into others posts.

So what, one loves greenspan's method and recommends it.

So what, one loves ABA and recommends it.

If you are that defensive of your educational program, and not keeping

an open mind, that tells people that you are not sure of your program

and you need to reassure yourself that the program is the right one to

be using.

Kathy, I haven't posted in quite a while, but I have been reading daily.

Thank you for the vit A info that you posted. Hope all is well with both

of your children and it is good to hear from you again.

cindi

ps. I do not mean to be rude, but enough is enough. This is not helping

our children at all.

[Guest guest]

Cindi said:

All right ladies, I think we should all agree to disagree on what

educational programs are the most effective. They are all effective....

If you are that defensive of your educational program, and not keeping

an open mind, that tells people that you are not sure of your program

and you need to reassure yourself that the program is the right one to

be using.

THANK YOU! And for those of you who were intimidated or irritated by my

post, let me re-emphasize the point I was trying to make (about jiving

with one's family culture). Sorry if it was too long and clouded!

Please allow me to try again...

The JASH journal from fall 1999 has all articles on autism. It's got

all the big guy's papers on everything from ABA to Greenspan to Pivotal

Response to parent comments. (Glaringly absent is an article on visual

strategies...or maybe it's an " understood " as an integral and necessary

part of any method) If you read it cover to cover, you end feeling like

different kids need different things and the KEY to it all is what jives

with your family's culture.......

My thing is whatever you do, do it with respect and dignity, do it no

differently than if you were doing it for the typically developing

sibling, recognize ability no matter how non traditional, and get and

keep your vision for your child in your heart when making decisions on

the LIFE God trusted you with.

The Inclusion Fairy

(who is raising (not training) 2 kids, who happen to fall on different

places on the AU spectrum, to be caring contributing members of their

community)

[Guest guest]

AMEN AND ALLELUIA!

--

Visit our website at onnetmall.com/mall/sistersdiscjockey

You can get paid for surfin' the 'net like I do! Visit alladvantage.com

and use my I.D. # IME-345 or adsavers.com and use my email address of

lmuzic@... as your referral