Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Excellent! Thank you. I have heard of the Strength and Power in Sport but have never been able to get my hands on one. The other is new to me but I will try to find it. Thank you again, Lee Robillard Mississauga, Ontario Canada =========================== Subject: Re: Crossfit To: Supertraining Received: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 1:47 PM Here is the direction you are asking for: Strength and Power in Sport, by Paavo Komi, editor Adaptation in sport training, A. Viru read (both books are full of references and studies) and you will have enough base data to put some things toghether. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out > of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into > whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME > CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training > protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the > posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate > term, make valid points. > > > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and > dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or > unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating > specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these statements are > false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted > to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading > them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give > my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented > studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something > tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > Lee Robillard > > Mississauga, Ontario > > Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Even in sports with variable motor regimen there are much better ways to organize and program the training than crossfit. A popular approach which works very well for combat sports is the one used by Ross Enamait. Dan Partelly Oradea, ROmania > > > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > > to see > > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > > stating > > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > > > Lee > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with > closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On > the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) > where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit > sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. > > _____________________________ > Gerald Lafon > USMC, RVN 70-71 > Director, Judo America San Diego > Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club > http://www.judoamerica.com > 858 578-7748 > >  > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Viru's book is superb and IMO understanding biology adaptation is crucial. The nice point is, that successful (which delivered results) " empirical " approaches of training implementation and the conclusion drawn from studying adaptation responses in humans both point in the same direction. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of classes out > > of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into > > whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that SOME > > CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training > > protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the > > posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the appropriate > > term, make valid points. > > > > > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and > > dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or > > unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating > > specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these statements are > > false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been conducted > > to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading > > them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can give > > my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented > > studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > > > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without something > > tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > > > Lee Robillard > > > Mississauga, Ontario > > > Canada > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Truth is, very few regulars who train know the training regimen of advanced sportsman, their amazing work capacity and the training loads tolerated by their organism. In a way, your post hit the nail in the head. Most ppl rate physical preparation reported to their physical condition, and thus they can only see as far as the next hill in front of them. I think your post is an excellent one. . Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > call it and any one of the elite wrestlers could do a set of 500 > without slowing down or getting gassed. They wouldn't find the 'Tabata > this' workout too grueling at all. > > But I still check out the Crossfit WOD once in a while just to get > some ideas. Good site. > > Hobman > Saskatoon, Canada > > > > > > > , > > > > I believe Glenn Pendlay also uses the density training approach with > > his > > beginning lifters. > > > > I have to agree that CrossFit isn't useful for most elite athletes > > because > > of their specialized needs. For example, many olympic lifters with > > associations with CrossFit don't CrossFit (Casey Burgener, Greg > > Everett, > > Aimee Anaya, Woolfolk). There are others who aren't as > > competitive > > who do incorporate some CrossFit. > > > > CrossFit, without modifications, is a GPP program designed to > > increase work > > capacity in broad modal domains. Basically, it's designed so that > > you're a > > generalist and not a specialist. I know many elite coaches love to > > disregard CrossFit because of the SAID principle, but CrossFit, > > without > > modifications, isn't for specialists. I am a big believer in the SAID > > principle, but many CrossFitters have had success with the random > > programming with additional time spent on technique work. > > > > With some modifications, however, I believe some specialists can > > incorporate > > CrossFit-like GPP in order to increase their work capacity and > > recover more > > quickly and train more frequently. I'm sure many elite athletes > > already do > > have high levels of work capacity though. Westside has already > > embraced the > > idea of GPP and increasing work capacity. > > > > Lee > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Hobman > > wrote: > > > > > I have to back up Dan here. In elite athletes specificity rules, and > > > where other exercises are inserted in the program of training they > > are > > > chosen specifically for the athlete and his/her personal needs. > > There > > > is a time and place for GPP with elite athletes, but even then the > > GPP > > > will be chosen for the athlete. In many cases GPP should be > > something > > > they enjoy that allows them a break from training. eiev, for > > > example, enjoyed playing volleyball and used that game as GPP. > > > > > > Having said that - Crossfit is a site I have sent some people to for > > > training ideas. I myself have tried their workouts, but as an > > olympic > > > weightlifter I don't like the idea of working so near exhaustion in > > > the classic lifts. I prefer Canadian coach Pierre Roy's 'density > > > training' approach and also enjoy baseball and wrestling or martial > > > arts for GPP. > > > > > > Hobman > > > Saskatoon, Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should ask for evidence in the first place to the one who > > makes > > > > the claims, not from me. > > > > > > > > Second, I'm tired of ppl asking for " studies " , for everything, no > > > > offense here. What do you think, which elite athlete pair will > > risk > > > > their future for a " study " to prove or disprove Glassman's claim > > on > > > > the that for gaining a hundred of a second in 100m sprint probe > > his > > > > idea of GPP is better than special sport training, as suggested > > by his > > > > claims. Can you give a phone call to and Bolt ? So we can > > > > play with them doing Crossfit ? > > > > > > > > Anyway, if you understand programming and organization of > > training and > > > > if you ever witnessed the training regimen and the complexity of > > > > training of advanced athletes in various Olympic sports and their > > > > *results* from SAID training program you will understand. > > > > > > > > Dan Partelly > > > > Oradea, Romania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > > > > > > > I am not a CrossFit proponent. I have tried a couple of > > classes out > > > > of curiosity and found they were alright but nothing I'd jump into > > > > whole-heartedly. I don't think it is the end all and be all that > > SOME > > > > CrossFit members believe but nor do I think any system or training > > > > protocol is the only one that is any good. I have been reading the > > > > posts here on this subject and both sides, if that is the > > appropriate > > > > term, make valid points. > > > > > > > > > > I am curious though, you went through the post by and > > > > dismissed the statements as blatantly false or opinion or > > > > unsubstantiated by any evidence. Is there evidence, relating > > > > specifically to Crossfit, to support your belief these > > statements are > > > > false? I guess it would have to be studies that have been > > conducted > > > > to prove or disprove them. If so I would be interested in reading > > > > them. I am quite frequently asked about Crossfit and while I can > > give > > > > my opinion and relate my experiences with it, having documented > > > > studies to refer to would be a huge benefit. > > > > > I don't doubt your knowledge or experience however without > > something > > > > tangible to support it, it is just one persons opinion. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Hi Gerald I coach rugby players and understand why you may suggest that Cross Fit may be good, not sure why someone ripping your head off makes Cross Fit better than more sport orientated conditioning circuits that you could do for your players. In previous posts I have referred to at least one study that showed the use of repeated Judo throws and continuous fight sequences to have the same effect on body conditioning as running 3000m, there may be other great drill you know from your sport. In our training we have a number of GPP training things that we use outside of the strength and explosive gym training that we do, things that sort of transcend GPP into sport specific. The training revolves around tyre flipping circuits (as explained in previous posts), contact conditioning (some form of body contact or ground contact), sprint circuits, a machine that we use called a ScrumTruk (I manufacture these in South Africa under licence) and a tackle bag hanging by wheels from a beam type device (which I made with a friend), sand bag training and the like. All the training on these is specific to the rugby players. The weight lifting guys and rowing guys at the gym do different training relevant to them, although some of the sprint circuits are used by the weightlifters as GPP. The use of sport related high intensity, circuit type training conditioning as GPP is not unique to Cross Fit (the reference to Ross Enemait by Dan as an example) . I see many people here referring to using a modified Cross Fit format. When is Cross Fit still Cross Fit, if you have modified it is it still Cross Fit? I find it hard to believe that all high intensity circuit type GPP is always called Cross Fit. From the web site that people have referred us to there are some interesting things they do, but if I use an idea from Cross Fit or West side or Supertraining does that mean that I am automatically a Cross Fitter, West Sider, Supertrainer or am I a Supercrosswestfitsider - speaking of cider mmm:-) Regards Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa 2009/1/9 Dan Partelly > > Even in sports with variable motor regimen there are much better ways > to organize and program the training than crossfit. > > A popular approach which works very well for combat sports is the one > used by Ross Enamait. > > Dan Partelly > Oradea, ROmania > > > > > > > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > > > to see > > > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > > > > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > > > stating > > > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > > > > > Lee > > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > > > > Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with > > closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On > > the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) > > where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit > > sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. > > > > _____________________________ > > Gerald Lafon > > USMC, RVN 70-71 > > Director, Judo America San Diego > > Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club > > http://www.judoamerica.com > > 858 578-7748 > > > >  > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I have been following this post and perhaps I am missing something so I am open to correctional comments. With that said I don't really understand all the hoop-la aound CF. It seems to me that it is merely another form of circuit training, with all the advantages and disadvantages of this form of training. CT can be modified to emphasize metabollic conditioning or strength but when I played football (i.e. soccer)in high school back in the late sixties it was used at the beginning of the season for what we would call today GPP and back then simply " getting into shape " . We used various combinations of running (at different speeds and durations), jumping, hopping, bw exercises etc. No implements. Now we have bb's and rings but the idea is still the same. O.K. - where did I get it wrong? Now about GPP as it pertains to elite athletes: I remember reading that Phelps was one of the poorest scorers in strength tests given to Olympian swimmers (I bet he's a lousy runner too). Maybe he can become somebody with a little GPP! Yehoshua Zohar Karmiel, Israel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I am a big fan of Ross Enamait. My interests, needs, and philosophy differ somewhat from CrossFit and are closer to Ross Enamait. Personally, I prefer Ross' conditioning workouts because they increase your work capacity without leaving you sore. I'd rather not blend strength, conditioning, and volume to the degree that some CrossFit workouts do. For a while, the mainpage CrossFit WOD were often chippers, which end up taking 30 min - 1 hour. There was somewhat of a backlash against that on the Forum, where many experimented with strength biased CrossFit programs in which strength training was supplemented with metcons that were all kept less than 10 min. The strength bias and shorter metcons translated well into even the longer domains. Nowadays, I train my upper body primarily with gymnastics movements. Does anybody else in this group incorporate gymnastics into their strength training? www.gymnasticbodies.com is a good resource. Lee Cypress, CA, USA > > Even in sports with variable motor regimen there are much better ways > to organize and program the training than crossfit. > > A popular approach which works very well for combat sports is the one > used by Ross Enamait. > > Dan Partelly > Oradea, ROmania > > > > > > > > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > > > to see > > > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > > > > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > > > stating > > > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > > > > > Lee > > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > > > > Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with > > closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On > > the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) > > where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit > > sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. > > > > _____________________________ > > Gerald Lafon > > USMC, RVN 70-71 > > Director, Judo America San Diego > > Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club > > http://www.judoamerica.com > > 858 578-7748 > > > >  > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Strength is **not** equal to GPP. And furthermore GPP is different by **work capacity**. And work capacity again, is not " strength " But most of the ppl just seem to put them in the same bag. Because they simply cant understand even the simplest terms. Furthermore, the only thing which counts in a sport, is winning in your event. As much as it may come as a surprise to some ppl, running performance is pretty much irrelevant to swimming. Remember, barbels don't swim against you. They also don't kick back. A big barbell lift doesn't impress anyone nearly as much as a record in your sport. How much power you can develop in the technical movements required by your sport is important. Not how big is your bench. He got medals. Other ppl with a larger bench probably got home crying for mummy:P Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania >I remember reading > that Phelps was one of the poorest scorers in strength tests > given to Olympian swimmers (I bet he's a lousy runner too). Maybe he > can become somebody with a little GPP! > > Yehoshua Zohar > Karmiel, Israel > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Nick, No, you're an Ubermensch coach. There's nothing new under the sun. I've been using Glassman's multidisciplinary approach for over 30 years. Developed my training methods working with boxers, wrestlers, Judoka and karateka. Just didn't put it on a web site and give it a name. And a $1000 gets you 2 months training with me, not 2 days. Dan Partelly has it right. As to Gerald Lefon's comment, in the mid to late 60's I was trained by Van Lenten,(MCRD drill instructor), 6th Dan Goju Ryu Karate and Roseberry,(hand to hand combat instructor MCRD), 5th Dan Goju Ryu and 3rd Dan Kodokan Judo. Our Judo and Karate teams routinely beat the crap out of everyone we competed against in the southwest US for 3 years. Goju Ryu is famous (infamous?)for intense conditioning training as is the Marine Corps. Additionally Van Lenten was undefeated in over 100 full contact martial arts matches in Asia back in the day. Conditioning was never a problem, nor was power. We didn't do anything new then nor is Glassman now. Invention is the mother of necessity. - Thorstein Veblen The best ideas are common property. - Seneca W.G. Ubermensch Sports Consultancy San Diego, CA > > > > > > > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > > > > to see > > > > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > > > > > > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > > > > stating > > > > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > > > > > > > Lee > > > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > > > > > > > Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with > > > closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these athletes. On > > > the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) > > > where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit > > > sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of individuality. > > > > > > _____________________________ > > > Gerald Lafon > > > USMC, RVN 70-71 > > > Director, Judo America San Diego > > > Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club > > > http://www.judoamerica.com > > > 858 578-7748 > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Coach, what a pleasure to see you still posting. I hope the kinds moderators of this list will allow me to express public my gratitude for your contributions during the years. Dan Partelly Oradea, Romania > > > > > > > > > I agree. Studies are sometimes overrated. I would also never want > > > > > to see > > > > > or Bolt CrossFitting. > > > > > > > > > > I have to correct one of your statements though. Glassman isn't > > > > > stating > > > > > that GPP is better than SPP, just that most athletes neglect GPP. > > > > > > > > > > Lee > > > > > Cypress, CA, USA > > > > > > > > > > > > Phelps, Bolt and race against a clock in cyclical sports with > > > > closed skills. Perhaps CrossFit isn't the best for these > athletes. On > > > > the other hand, in sports (Judo, mma, wrestling, football, rugby) > > > > where the other competitor is trying to rip your head off, Cross Fit > > > > sounds like a good fit. So, it's back to the principle of > individuality. > > > > > > > > _____________________________ > > > > Gerald Lafon > > > > USMC, RVN 70-71 > > > > Director, Judo America San Diego > > > > Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club > > > > http://www.judoamerica.com > > > > 858 578-7748 > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I for one am glad this topic has been brought up and discussed. I first heard of Crossfit a couple of years ago and was very interested in their training methods. I came up with a similar conclusion to most on this forum that specific demands require specific training. I don't get to work with many athletes so what I was interested in was how they (the Crossfitters) work with beginning exercisers. The word " scaleability " is used throughout but the video examples only show the high level Crossfitters doing the actions. I quickly learned that almost all HIIT programs went above and beyond the levels that my clientel could maintain. I've found that using a variety of programs (bands, balls, bodyweight) along with a myriad of training methods (Crossfit, Santana, Cook and many others) has given my clients a challenging, fun workout and they keep coming back for more. Thank you again for exposing me to the critical thinking needed to evaluate a program, any program and for letting all sides of this story a chance to express themselves. Tony Price CPT Rapid City, SD > > I am sure this topic has been run into the ground by this point. I > am not trying to get argumentative or defensive for or against the > CrossFit model. > > " CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program. We have > designed our program to elicit as broad an adaptational response as > possible. CrossFit is not a specialized fitness program but a > deliberate attempt to optimize physical competence in each of ten > recognized fitness domains. They are Cardiovascular and Respiratory > endurance, Stamina, Strength, Flexibility, Power, Speed, > Coordination, Agility, Balance, and Accuracy. " > > That is a direct quote from the CrossaFit Journal " Foundations " . > > Rational thought would suggest that MOST coaches/trainers understand > that this does not suggest generality in any way implies a " one-size > fits all " approach. This to me suggests incompetence on the part of > the coach/trainer, not of the method of training. > > I am not a " CrossFitter " myself, but I have tried some of their > workouts. > > Sam Bretatc LAT, CSCS > Lees Summit,MO, USA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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