Re: Type of Diet Doesn't Matter, Cutting Calories Does

[Guest guest]

   

    Subject: Re: Type of Diet Doesn't Matter, Cutting

Calories Does

    To: Supertraining

    Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 4:23 PM

    Ralph, by a strange coincidence, while I was out doing some yard work

    a few hours ago, I heard an interview with the Dr. on my local PBS

    station about that study. There are a couple of questions I would have

    liked to have asked about it and perhaps you or someone else has some

    thoughts on the subject.

****************

I am more than happy to try and answer your question as best I can. RG

***********************

 I have been reading a lot about diets, macro nutrient percentages,

    etc. lately, especially among the weight training/fitness community,

    and most of them recommend a higher protein higher fat lower

    carbohydrate diet for most people. The first reason is that higher

    carbohydrate diets lead to increased insulin response leading to

    greater fat storage that eventually can lead to insulin resistance.

**********************************

The most misunderstood metabolic function is that of insulin.  What you stated

above has been printed widely in many posts both here and elsewhere.  I have

posted many times explaining the role of insulin in metabolism, but I am more

than willing to outline insulin’s role in every day metabolism and at the same

time answer your question.

The prime role of insulin is to regulate blood  glucose and facilitate the 

entry of glucose into the appropriate organs and structures of the body.

In the fasting state the liver is constantly adding glucose to the blood stream

to prevent the blood levels from dropping to low. Very low blood glucose levels

<50 will quickly lead to coma and even brain death unless the liver is able to

correct this.

After a meal the first role insulin is to prevent to liver from adding more

glucose to blood stream at the same time facilitate the entry glucose into to

liver to restore the liver stores of glycogen.

Once the liver stores have been restored insulin facilitates the entry of amino

acids and glucose into muscles and other organs.  Insulin is an anabolic

hormone and protein as well as glucose stimulate the rise in insulin.  Protein

is more easily assimilated in the muscles in the presence of glucose.

Finally if there is still glucose left after the stores  muscles and liver have

been filled the remaining glucose is then stored in fat. 

The liver can store 90 grams of glucose as glycogen and muscles can store

between 250 grams to 450 grams as glucose (depending on the muscle mass). 

Increased intrabdominal fat is associated with insulin resistance.  Exercise,

by using up stored glucose, decreases insulin resistance.

Glucose and Insulin on cause fat storage only if and individual consumes more

than 400 grams of carbs and does no exercise.

It should be noted that protein not utilized is converted into glucose through a

process of gluconeogenesis. For basic daily metabolism it is estimated that an

individual requires about 1 gram/KG.    Excess protein can bring about excess

glucose which then becomes fat.   RG

************************************

    The second is that TEF (Thermal Effect of Feeding) is higher with

    protein than with carbohydrate and that TEF is about non-existent for

    fat. Therefore in that respect all calories aren't equal since more

    calories are required to burn the ingested protein than carbohydrates

    and fats. There also seems to be some agreement that protein is

    generally more satiating than carbohydrates, especially high GI

    carbohydrates and that helps control appetite.

*****************

The real calorie content of protein is 5.65 cal/gram ad the real calorie content

of glucose of 4.2 cal/gram.  (Exercise and Sports Nutrition  McKardle, Katch

a & Katch pg 167).

Protein is usually list as having the same calories as glucose because the TEF

is taken into account.  Most meals consist of complex foods (protein, carbs,

fats and fiber).  For satiety fiber  especially in the form of veggies is

best.  The brain center that signals satiety  is stimulate when the stomach

has reached a certain volume irrespective of the contents. The stomach does not

have sensors that distinguish between the various nutrients. For this reason

Metamucil or similar products have been used as weight loss products. 

I hope that I have answered your questions.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

  

[Guest guest]

Let's see if I understand this correctly.

" However, Dr. Katan noted that these dietary goals were only partly

achieved.

Protein intake differed by only 1% to 2% of energy rather than the

intended 10% between the high- and average-protein-diet groups and

the range in carbohydrate content between diet groups was 6% of

energy instead of the planned 30%. "

So they only had 1-2% difference between high and average protiein

gropus and only 6% difference in carb content. So essentially they

were comparing very similar diets.

And surprisingly got very similar results.

I looks like what was tested here was the intelligence of the testers.

And they passed with flying colors when the found that perhaps

motivation is the biggest differentiator. Too bad that finding wasn't

put in the title.

Regards,

Johan Bastiaansen

Hasselt, Belgium

>

> The following should be on interest

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

> ********************

> Type of Diet Doesn't Matter, Cutting Calories Does

> By Crystal Phend, Staff Writer, MedPage Today

> Published: February 25, 2009

> Reviewed by Zalman S. Agus, MD; Emeritus Professor

> University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

> BOSTON, Feb. 25 -- Cutting calories is the key to weight loss

regardless of whether a diet emphasizes fat, protein, or

carbohydrates, researchers found.

>

> Four low-calorie diets -- differentiated by percentage of intake of

those nutrients -- all yielded an average loss of 7% of body weight

at six months and a 2.9 to 3.6 kg loss at two years (P>0.20 for all

comparisons), M. Sacks, M.D., of the Harvard School of Public

Health, and colleagues reported in the Feb. 26 issue of the New

England Journal of Medicine.

>

> Although protein is thought to provide more fullness per calorie

than fat or carbohydrates, the randomized trial showed no difference

in satiety, hunger, or diet satisfaction between groups.

>

> These findings " give people lots of flexibility " and should shift

focus back to the basics, Dr. Sacks said. " Weight loss is very

simplistically just reducing the amount of calories that you take in,

and any kind of healthy diet that allows you to do that is the best. "

> Action Points 

>

>  

> Dr. Sacks cautioned that the study did not test the Atkins,

Mediterranean, or other popular diets per se. " You might say we

tested the science that is behind those diets. "

>

> Many of the claims for these diets have been based on selectively

cited short-term or animal studies of the benefits of one

macronutrient over the other for weight loss, he noted in an

interview.

>

> But the randomized trial results should be the final word in the

macronutrient debate, Dr. Sacks said. " The way forward isn't to

really start tweaking dietary composition. "

>

> In an accompanying editorial, Martijn B. Katan, Ph.D., of VU

University in Amsterdam, agreed that community and policy initiatives

should now take the front seat.

>

> He noted that body mass index still averaged 31 to 32 kg/m2 and was

on the rise at two years in the trial.

>

> " Even these highly motivated, intelligent participants who were

coached by expert professionals could not achieve the weight losses

needed to reverse the obesity epidemic, " Dr. Katan wrote.

>

> " Evidently, " he said, " individual treatment is powerless against an

environment that offers so many high-calorie foods and labor-saving

devices. "

>

> He cautioned, too, that the achieving the dietary composition

targets was difficult even in the highly supportive trial setting.

>

> The researchers enrolled 811 overweight adults and randomized them

to one of four diets with fat, protein, and carbohydrates accounting

for differing percentages of energy as follows:

>

>     * A low-fat, average-protein diet with 20% fat, 15% protein,

and 65% carbohydrates

>     * A low-fat, high-protein diet with 20% fat, 25% protein, and

55% carbohydrates

>     * A high-fat, average-protein diet with 40% fat, 15% protein,

and 45% carbohydrates

>     * A high-fat, high-protein diet with 40% fat, 25% protein, and

35% carbohydrates

>

> All the diets were individually targeted to restrict caloric intake

by a deficit of 750 kcal a day from baseline.

>

> Similar foods were used for the diets along with two years of

weekly group and bimonthly individual instructional sessions.

>

> However, Dr. Katan noted that these dietary goals were only partly

achieved.

>

> Protein intake differed by only 1% to 2% of energy rather than the

intended 10% between the high- and average-protein-diet groups and

the range in carbohydrate content between diet groups was 6% of

energy instead of the planned 30%.

>

> After the full two years, weight loss was similar whether patients'

diet aimed for high- or average-protein intake (3.6 versus 3.0 kg,

P=0.22 overall and P=0.11 among completers).

>

> Average weight loss at two years was identical for the high- versus

low-fat diets (both 3.3 kg, P=0.94 overall and P=0.76 among

completers).

>

> Likewise, carbohydrate targets from 35% to 65% had no significant

effect on patients' ability to shed pounds.

>

> Waist circumference changes were statistically similar between diet

groups as well.

>

> The strongest predictor of weight loss was actually attendance at

group sessions (0.2 kg for every session attended) across diet groups

(P=0.22 for difference in slopes).

>

> Exploring these behavioral and individual differences -- such as

why the 23% of patients who had continual weight loss through two

years were so successful -- may be the real key to weight loss rather

than dietary composition, Dr. Sacks concluded.

>

> The study was supported by grants from the National Heart, Lung,

and Blood Institute and the National Institutes of Health.

>

> One coauthor reported conflicts of interest with Anian, Bristol-

Myers Squibb, Clarus Health, Encore Pharmaceutical, Leptos

Biomedical, MDRNA, Novo Nordisk, General Nutrition Corporation,

Catalyst, Craig, Orexigen, Lithera, and Basic Research,

BAROnova, Lazard, and Biologene.

>

> Dr. Sacks reported being a member of a group that interacts with

the Obesity Committee of the National Heart, Lung, and Blood

Institute and vice-chair of the Nutrition Committee of the American

Heart Association, which advises the Association on nutrition topics,

including those related to overweight and obesity.

>

> Dr. Katan reported no conflicts of interest.

>

> Primary source: New England Journal of Medicine

> Source reference:

> Sacks FM, et al " Comparison of Weight-Loss Diets with Different

Compositions of Fat, Protein, and Carbohydrates " N Engl J Med 2009;

360: 859-73.

>

> Additional source: New England Journal of Medicine

> Source reference:

> Katan MB " Weight-Loss Diets for the Prevention and Treatment of

Obesity " N Engl J Med 2009; 360: 923-25.

> Additional Diet & Nutrition Coverage »

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> >     From: bobjjdan <rdannegger@>

> >     Subject: Re: Type of Diet Doesn't Matter,

> Cutting Calories Does

> >     To: Supertraining

> >     Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 4:23 PM

> >

> >     Ralph, by a strange coincidence, while I was out doing some

> yard work

> >     a few hours ago, I heard an interview with the Dr. on my

> local PBS

> >     station about that study. There are a couple of questions I

> would have

> >     liked to have asked about it and perhaps you or someone

else

> has some

> >     thoughts on the subject.

> >

> > ****************

> > I am more than happy to try and answer your question as best I

can. RG

> >

> > ***********************

> >  I have been reading a lot about diets, macro nutrient

percentages,

> >     etc. lately, especially among the weight training/fitness

> community,

> >     and most of them recommend a higher protein higher fat

lower

> >     carbohydrate diet for most people. The first reason is that

> higher

> >     carbohydrate diets lead to increased insulin response

leading to

> >     greater fat storage that eventually can lead to insulin

> resistance.

> > **********************************

> > The most misunderstood metabolic function is that of insulin. 

What

> you stated above has been printed widely in many posts both here and

> elsewhere.  I have posted many times explaining the role of insulin

> in metabolism, but I am more than willing to outline insulin’s

role

> in every day metabolism and at the same time answer your question.

> >

> > The prime role of insulin is to regulate blood  glucose and

> facilitate the  entry of glucose into the appropriate organs and

> structures of the body.

> >

> > In the fasting state the liver is constantly adding glucose to the

> blood stream to prevent the blood levels from dropping to low. Very

> low blood glucose levels <50 will quickly lead to coma and even

brain

> death unless the liver is able to correct this.

> >

> > After a meal the first role insulin is to prevent to liver from

> adding more glucose to blood stream at the same time facilitate the

> entry glucose into to liver to restore the liver stores of glycogen.

> >

> > Once the liver stores have been restored insulin facilitates the

> entry of amino acids and glucose into muscles and other organs. 

> Insulin is an anabolic hormone and protein as well as glucose

> stimulate the rise in insulin.  Protein is more easily assimilated

in

> the muscles in the presence of glucose.

> >

> > Finally if there is still glucose left after the stores  muscles

> and liver have been filled the remaining glucose is then stored in

fat. 

> >

> > The liver can store 90 grams of glucose as glycogen and muscles

can

> store between 250 grams to 450 grams as glucose (depending on the

> muscle mass). 

> >

> > Increased intrabdominal fat is associated with insulin

resistance. 

> Exercise, by using up stored glucose, decreases insulin resistance.

> >

> > Glucose and Insulin on cause fat storage only if and individual

> consumes more than 400 grams of carbs and does no exercise.

> >

> > It should be noted that protein not utilized is converted into

> glucose through a process of gluconeogenesis. For basic daily

> metabolism it is estimated that an individual requires about 1

> gram/KG.    Excess protein can bring about excess glucose which

> then becomes fat.   RG

> > ************************************

> >     The second is that TEF (Thermal Effect of Feeding) is

higher with

> >     protein than with carbohydrate and that TEF is about

> non-existent for

> >     fat. Therefore in that respect all calories aren't equal

> since more

> >     calories are required to burn the ingested protein than

> carbohydrates

> >     and fats. There also seems to be some agreement that

protein is

> >     generally more satiating than carbohydrates, especially

high GI

> >     carbohydrates and that helps control appetite.

> > *****************

> >

> > The real calorie content of protein is 5.65 cal/gram ad the real

> calorie content of glucose of 4.2 cal/gram.  (Exercise and Sports

> Nutrition  McKardle, Katch a & Katch pg 167).

> > Protein is usually list as having the same calories as glucose

> because the TEF is taken into account.  Most meals consist of

complex

> foods (protein, carbs, fats and fiber).  For satiety fiber 

> especially in the form of veggies is best.  The brain center that

> signals satiety  is stimulate when the stomach has reached a

certain

> volume irrespective of the contents. The stomach does not have

sensors

> that distinguish between the various nutrients. For this reason

> Metamucil or similar products have been used as weight loss

products. 

> >

> > I hope that I have answered your questions.

> >

> > Ralph Giarnella MD

> > Southington Ct USA

> >

> >

> >   

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Ralph

Thanks for the fast response. You are right that is a good way to loose

weight for powerlifting or weightlifting comps it may not work for other

weighted events. In addition after weigh in I have quite a lot of time to

re-feed and rehydrate, although putting on the shirts of training partners

did exhaust me faster than usual.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2009/3/3 Ralph Giarnella

>

>

> From: Nick Tatalias <nick.tatalias@...<nick.tatalias%40gmail.com>>

>

> Subject: Re: Type of Diet Doesn't Matter, Cutting

> Calories Does

> To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 1:15 PM

>

> Hi

>

> I agree with you about carbs (although fibre is very long chain

> carbs). I

> recently dropped weight to make a weight division power lifting losing

> 6kg

> in two weeks (yes I got a bit chubby of late), by manipulating the diet

> and

> cutting starches radically, this helps in my understanding reduce water

> stored concurrently with the carbs, I also drank large volumes of water

> (about 4l a day) and then dehydrated into the competition (using

> spitting

> etc to make the final 400g).

>

> I did also cut calories I guess by eating leafy vegetables to feel full

> as

> Ralph suggested. I lifted my best in competition on the bench (after a

> long

> run of injury). This as a short term strategy is useful, but I am back

> up

> about 3kg since Saturday (re hydration mostly). I would not suggest it

> as a

> long term strategy.

>

> By manipulating the content of your diet over the short term can be

> very

> effective if you have to make weight and body builders do this

> regularly

> before shows, playing with the carbs seems to effect the most dramatic

> change. It maybe lore rather than science so comments would be

> appreciated.

>

> Regards

> Nick Tatalias

> Johannesburg

> South Africa

>

> ***************************

> For every gram of glucose stored as glycogen the body also stores 3 grams

> of water. If the average well muscled athlete can store as much as 500-600

> grams of glycogen that translates to 2 -2.4 KG or 4.5- 5 lbs. It is

> important to note that since most of the glycogen is stored in muscle and

> therfore accounts for 4-5 lbs of muscle mass. Depleting the body of

> glycogen results in 4-5 lbs weight loss (muscle mass loss). That loss of

> glycogen may not affect results in a competition where one only makes single

> lifts since those lifts depend primarily on creatine stores not glycogen

> stores. However if one were to try multiple sets the individual would

> quickly run out of energy since creatine relies on glycogen to restore its

> energy.\\

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington Ct USA

>

>

>