Re: Standing Press VS Bench Press

March 12, 2008

IMO the Standing Press is better for athletic performance. Nearly 100% of all

sports is done on your feet while exerting force against either gravity or some

other external force. While the bench press is an effective lift for improving

upper body strength, it does not in any way mimmick any tasks performed by

athletes in any sport other than Powerlifting.

Garrison, CSCS

Mesa, AZ

================================

To: Supertraining@...: pbeck53@...: Wed, 12 Mar 2008

17:47:52 +0000Subject: Standing Press VS Bench Press

I would like to hear everyones response as it relates to the importants of a

bench press over a standing press for athletic training. I do not have any

articles or journals that would give some validity to this topic though. If you

do please share. BeckCarolina Crossfit, USA

================================

March 12, 2008

I am a masters discus thrower and have been competing on and off (mostly on)

since 1963. I always had a fairly good bench press (455 best single; 385 at age

55; I'm 60 years old now). My shoulders got so bad that it hurt to warm-up with

135 lb. Now I do standing chest presses on the Lifefitness machine. You can do

the exercise with one or two arms at a time and must stabilize your lower body

and core to perform the movement. My shoulders don't hurt much anymore, and I

think the exercise transfers better to the discus than the bench press. It is

also possible to push a lot of weight. Â I have no data on this, so take my

observations for what they're worth.

Tom Fahey

Dept Kinesiology

Cal State Univ, Chico

Standing Press VS Bench Press

I would like to hear everyones response as it relates to the importants

of a bench press over a standing press for athletic training. I do not

have any articles or journals that would give some validity to this

topic though. If you do please share.

Beck

Carolina Crossfit, USA

==================================

March 13, 2008

Some videos of the classic Olympic Press:

Check out the vertical at the end of this awesome press:

eyev making over 500 lbs look easy!

To me there's just no comparison to the bench. Vastly different

exercises. And in the Olympic press you have to dead lift and clean

the weight before you can press it. The press itself is pure strength.

Total body power and strength! To see 500 lbs go overhead, just awesome!

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

In Supertraining , phillip g wrote:

>

> IMO the Standing Press is better for athletic performance. Nearly

100% of all sports is done on your feet while exerting force against

either gravity or some other external force. While the bench press is

an effective lift for improving upper body strength, it does not in

any way mimmick any tasks performed by athletes in any sport other

than Powerlifting.

>

> Garrison, CSCS

> Mesa, AZ

>

> ================================

>

> To: Supertraining@...: pbeck53@...: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:47:52

+0000Subject: Standing Press VS Bench Press

>

> I would like to hear everyones response as it relates to the

importants of a bench press over a standing press for athletic

training. I do not have any articles or journals that would give some

validity to this topic though. If you do please share.

BeckCarolina Crossfit, USA

>

> ================================

>

March 13, 2008

W.G. 'Bill' wrote:

> Standing erect to do the Standing Press requires use of the entire

> body. The isometric tensioning of the core develops great functional

> strength. The back and legs must also be very strong. The exercise

> requires standing erect against gravity, way more functional than

> lying down

If I recall correctly, Dr. Siff included the bench press in his " Big Five, " but

omitted the

" Olympic Press, " even though he was an accomplished weightlifter back when the

press was

one of the competition lifts. Unfortunately, I never asked him why while he was

still here to

answer. Would anyone like to hazard a guess?

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

March 13, 2008

Too many people seem to be caught up in the specificity/mimicry game. Whether

bench pressing or OH pressing is better for sport is irrelevant.

1. Neither action is involved in sports specifically unless you are a

powerlifter or Olympic lifter.

2. Training with weights is a tool to enhance performance, increase strength,

add body mass, reduce injury.

3. The specificity with weight training would be in the EXECUTION SPEED of the

movement or the use of max effort training to increase MU Recruitment, rate

coding and the subsequent power production which can carry over to movements in

sport. Executing movements with speed and power will enhance speed and power in

sporting movements.to some degree. When an individual gets stronger their power

output increases.

4. The goal of any pressing movement is to learn to express arm

adduction/extension forcefully. This occurs whether it is a bench press or

overhead press. This action when utilized for sport training should also be done

with a grip that is no more than 1-2 inches wider than shoulder width of the

athlete and never wider than the rings on an OLY bar. If you review actions in

sport most when executed efficiently occur in this width of the athletes body.

Football lineman punch blocking, boxer throwing a punch and so forth.

5. Depends on the athlete's sport and the athletes shoulder structure. A

football lineman needs to express force on a more horizontal plane or more

specifically moderately inclined plane when punch blocking or rushing the

passer and keeping opponent away from his body. So benching and developing power

in this plane would be more of a necessity than developing power in an vertical

plane, of course it should not be neglected unless the athlete has biomechanical

issue such as a type 3 acromion that can cause impingement.

6.Regarding the shot put, which I believe was metnioned reagarding these posts.

One should analyze the optimum angle of the explosive push of the shot in

realtionship to the body and train the incline bench at that angle and at angles

within 20 degrees above and below. Utilizing the push press would also aid this

sporting action as it requires an explosive extension of the body.

7. Philip Garrison posted

" IMO the Standing Press is better for athletic performance. Nearly 100% of

all sports is done on your feet while exerting force against either gravity or

some other external force. While the bench press is an effective lift for

improving upper body strength, it does not in any way mimmick any tasks

performed by athletes in any sport other than Powerlifting. "

How can one make such a blanket statement? Yes most sports are done on your

feet. Yes you must overcome gravity or an exteranl force. Throwing a weight

overhead can help the whole body handle loads more efficiently. Your argument

regarding mimicy is mute as not too many sports require one to stand in a static

position and throw a weight to arms length directly overhead. Why do so many

people feel that we need to mimick sporting actions to make an exercise

effective. Trying to mimick sporting actions can actually mess up the

recruitment pattern of the real sporting action. What happens if your athlete

needs to express force in a more horizontal plane and does not require him/her

to express force in a vertical plane?

The two exercises both have a purpose and it depends on the sport and the

athlete's biomechanical structure whether they should be applied or not and to

the percentage of that application.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh,PA.

March 14, 2008

" " Some coaches used to endlessly criticise me for bench pressing as

an Olympic lifter, because they considered that the BP " limited

shoulder flexibility " and conflicted with my overhead movements. I,

on the other hand, reasoned that pectoralis major plays a useful role

in helping one stabilise the bar overhead, since the pecs limit

abduction (backward) movement of the shoulders. I also felt that the

bench press increased tricep (and anconeus) strength, which can be

very helpful in locking the elbows under heavy overhead loading.

Despite my " bench pressing " sin " , my shoulders have always remained

flexible, strong and injury free, and I can still catch a squat

snatch in an extremely low position.

When I first started weightlifting, we had the Olympic Press and many of us

considered the bench press to be a useful supplementary exercise. Later I

continued doing the bench press because I reasoned that the pecs do play a

useful adduction role during the overhead catch and stabilising phase of the

snatch, plus the triceps are helpful if your jerk sometimes is less explosive

than it should be. The triceps are also used for thrusting yourself under the

bar during the " drop and catch " phase of both lifts. Strong deltoids also are

not redundant, either, in any arm raising action.

I have never had difficulty in holding the bar overhead in the snatch - in fact,

I have always had a very low, very supple snatch. Far too many weightlifters

entertain the myth that bench pressing decreases one's flexibility in the snatch

- the fact that one is regularly snatching and doing several supplementary

snatch exercises keeps one's upper body flexibility high, no matter what other

exercises one may periodically do. I think that opposition to bench pressing

often lies in some silly antipathy to what powerlifters do in their programs. If

you include bench press in a weightlifting program, then don't do that exercise

until after you have completed your Olympic lifts in any given session and don't

do too many reps in a given set. Of course, one preferably does not do (heavy)

bench pressing during the week before a weightlifting competition. " "

=================================

Hope that helps

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

March 16, 2008

Hi Bill

You wrote: " Name a sport where the ability to express speed is not a

critical ability? "

An Olympic sport -Archery, which requires a significant isometric strength

and and fine control.

Best Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

March 16, 2008

Belive me I don't do Barbell bench press that often and do tons of other

exercises to torture myself. I compete in Highland Games, Strongman, and MMA. I

was just responding to statement that every sport other then the ones

he mentioned are done on your feet.

Bill

Havertown, Pa

=================================

LEE ROBILLARD wrote:

I'm not an MMA practitioner but I am a fan. Many of the participants

in the MMA are some of the best conditioned atheletes around. You said it

yourself, you are " bridging and pressing " when back on the mat. In fact you

could also add twisting and pulling. I don't think bench press involves those

types of movements, other than pressing of course. In other words you would

still be utilizing many more muscle groups than those that are trained by the

bench press alone. May even go so far as to say all the muscle groups of the

body are being brought into play in that particular instance. Not to say it is a

useless exercise for MMA practitioners, just one of many that likey need to be

used.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada

Bill wrote:

What about wrestling and MMA? Back on the mat, opponent in side or full mount I

am bridging and pressing him at the same time. I do not end up in guard position

or on the bottom that often but when I do I depend on raw strength to power out.

Bill

Havertown, Pa

===========================

Philip wrote:

I can make that blanket statement becuase it's true. The bench press

is an excellent exercise for developing strength in the chest,

shoulders, and triceps, but it doesn't have alot of carryover to most

sports.

1.) Unless you do powerlifting, or equestrian, or rowing, every sport

is performed while standing and requires for be exerted not only

against the ground, but also that the body must mitigate forces

exerted on the body while standing. In most power sports (football,

hockey, sprinting, rugby, throwing events etc)exerting force is only

half the equation, absorbing forces from external sources is crucial

too. A standing press trains the body to do both far more effectively

then the bench press does. Exercises like the press, push press, push

jerk help train the body to stabilize in all 3 planes while

simultaneously exerting force, and have forces exerted on the body.

The bench press does not. By having multiple points of contact with a

stable surface while lying in a supine position, the body only has to

stablize a portion of the load vs the entire portion.

2.) This isn't about mimicry, but if it were,please tell me outside

of Powerlifting any movement in any sport that in any way mimics the

bench press. I can think of several movements in several sports that

have similar motor paths to the over head presses.

3.) If you can show me a clear example of a non powerlifting athlete

that might require to exert more force in a horizontal orientation

while also maintaining three points of contact with the ground, I

will concede your point.

Garrison, CSCS

Mesa, AZ

In Supertraining , boxeraugust wrote:

> 7. Philip Garrison posted

> " IMO the Standing Press is better for athletic performance.

Nearly 100% of all sports is done on your feet while exerting force

against either gravity or some other external force. While the bench

press is an effective lift for improving upper body strength, it does

not in any way mimmick any tasks performed by athletes in any sport

other than Powerlifting. "

>

> How can one make such a blanket statement? Yes most sports are done

on your feet. Yes you must overcome gravity or an exteranl force.

Throwing a weight overhead can help the whole body handle loads more

efficiently. Your argument regarding mimicy is mute as not too many

sports require one to stand in a static position and throw a weight

to arms length directly overhead. Why do so many people feel that we

need to mimick sporting actions to make an exercise effective. Trying

to mimick sporting actions can actually mess up the recruitment

pattern of the real sporting action. What happens if your athlete

needs to express force in a more horizontal plane and does not

require him/her to express force in a vertical plane?

>

> The two exercises both have a purpose and it depends on the sport

and the athlete's biomechanical structure whether they should be

applied or not and to the percentage of that application.

>

> Damien Chiappini

> Pittsburgh,PA.

>

March 17, 2008

I'm with you on that. Quite frankly I find the bench press kinda boring.

Lee Robillard

Mississauga, Ontario

Canada

Bill wrote:

Belive me I don't do Barbell bench press that often and do tons of

other exercises to torture myself. I compete in Highland Games, Strongman, and

MMA. I was just responding to statement that every sport other then the

ones he mentioned are done on your feet.

Bill

Havertown, Pa

=================================

LEE ROBILLARD wrote:

I'm not an MMA practitioner but I am a fan. Many of the participants in the MMA

are some of the best conditioned atheletes around. You said it yourself, you are

" bridging and pressing " when back on the mat. In fact you could also add

twisting and pulling. I don't think bench press involves those types of

movements, other than pressing of course. In other words you would still be

utilizing many more muscle groups than those that are trained by the bench press

alone. May even go so far as to say all the muscle groups of the body are being

brought into play in that particular instance. Not to say it is a useless

exercise for MMA practitioners, just one of many that likey need to be used.