Re: Re: Stablon - encrougaging libido results, but intolerable side-effect - anyone have an antidote to suggest?

[Guest guest]

Melatonin. It's a chemical already in your brain that causes you to

sleep. Buy some pills, they are cheap, take one and get knocked out 10

minutes later and sleep the best sleep you ever had. The only problem is

that you grow tolerant, so you can't take them all the day. I started 7

months ago and will skips days or weeks at a time and then come back and

they will still work.

Shay

ruthyeckles wrote:

>

> I've had good success with Rescue Sleep Remedy...or one small puff

> of marijuana helps me too.-

>

> -- In SSRIsex <mailto:SSRIsex%40yahoogroups.com>,

> " Vornan-19 (moderator) "

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Ulf,

> >

> > Thanks very much for your very interesting and detailed report. I

> > have a question: were you still taking the effexor, even a small

> > dose, at the same time you were taking the Stablon? If so, I

> could

> > imagine that that could contribute to the insomnia, since the two

> > drugs have opposing actions on serotonin reuptake. I'm not even

> sure

> > it's safe to take both at once...

> >

> > Vornan

> >

> > -- In SSRIsex <mailto:SSRIsex%40yahoogroups.com>,

> " Ulf Rasmusson " <ulf.rasmusson@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Persistent SSRI sexual side effectsAfter 25 days on Stablon

> > (tianeptine), I'm starting to arrive at a verdict of it, for my

> own

> > part. Stablon is a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer.

> > > i.e. having opposite direct effect to SSRI:s, which only proves

> > what we already know that the AD action comes further downstream.

> > From What I understand from the few articles I've read about

> Stablon,

> > the qualities of which I cannot judge, it is said to have roughly

> > similar AD action to SSRI:s, have no sexual side-effects even

> > possibly pro-sexual effects but the scientific evidence for that

> is

> > uncertain, and have an unusually benign side-effect profile.

> > >

> > > After encouraging signs of emerging libido, an intolerable side-

> > effect has appeared that I have so far not been able to combat

> with

> > any success.

> > >

> > > Following are the details of my trial, in case it can be of any

> > help for those who need an alternative to an SSRI, are willing to

> > risk suffering side-effects and for whom being without medication

> is,

> > as for myself, not a viable option, based on hard and sustained

> > experience. I also have a faint hope of a miracle in the way of

> > somebody having a better alternative to suggest for combatting the

> > side-effect (insomnia) that will otherwise probably force me

> > discontinue this in many respects promising medication.

> > >

> > > Four days before starting Stablon, I started weaning off Effexor

> > 150 mg. The first night after taking Stablon, I had little sleep

> > because of repeated waking-ups from insanely vivid dreams that I

> > cannot remember ever having on such a sustained basis through a

> > night. And I had only taken a single tablet of Stablon that first

> > day, 12.5 mg which is one third of average full dose. That severe

> > effect quickly subsided, from day 2 the problems were slight, just

> an

> > occurence of vivid dreams but nothing like that first night and

> not

> > of any great bother. By day 4 (i.e. on my fourth day of Stablon) I

> > was up to full dose 3x12.5 mg.

> > >

> > > On day 5 I started noticing distinct, although not strong,

> feelings

> > of libido. That some reemergence of libido occurred so early in

> the

> > treatment was striking, since I was then still on a more than 60 %

> > dose of Effexor which by itself - even before PSSD - is, if I

> > remember correctly, enough to be a libido killer by itself. Also,

> I

> > have on various occasion been without SSRI:s for up to eight

> weeks,

> > sometimes with other SSRI-alternatives, sometimes off all

> medication,

> > and in no instance was there any return of libido. With partial

> > libido return after only five days, I attribute this to some kind

> of

> > pro-sexual effect of Stablon, for which I understand there is some

> > anecdotal evidence.

> > >

> > > Days 5-9 were fine with continued partial libido. No noticeable

> > side-effects except the occurence of the vivid dreams. These are a

> > common side-effect of Stablon, but they did not really impact my

> > sleep. AD efficacy equalled the good effects that the SSRI:s have

> on

> > me, although the analysis of this may be clouded by the fact that

> the

> > reduced dose of the SSRI could have had some lingering beneficial

> > effect.

> > >

> > > I would rate my libido as being less than half of pre-PSSD,

> maybe -

> > to throw out a figure - at 30 %. That is a huge difference to the

> > zero % it has been through these three years or so of PSSD. Let me

> > exemplify:

> > >

> > > - I have during my years of PSSD never had any sustained sexual

> > desire. Now I had it for a full 15 days, from day 5 to around day

> 20,

> > i.e. even when I was a wreck from the insomnia described below I

> > still had desire although it required a bit longer to arrive. Sex

> > during PSSD was something that I ought to do in order to have a

> > decent relationship with my woman. It was something I would gladly

> be

> > without any time.

> > >

> > > - Now, during days 5-20 on Stablon, I actually felt some

> desire,

> > not anything like the strong, almost overwhelming desire pre-PSSD,

> > but nevertheless a distinct desire. I looked forward to sex, in a

> > mellow, soft kind of way. The desire didn't come automatically, I

> had

> > to put myself in a relaxed mode for a minute or two but then it

> came.

> > The desire came every day, if I framed myself for it by letting go

> of

> > work e.g. I was not desperate for the old strong libido. I was

> > feeling quite OK with that more mellow kind of desire. I would

> rate

> > erection ability as perhaps equal in strength to the

> > arginine/gingko/Maca combination, but with orgasm quality being

> > superior. Libido, of course, was vastly superior since neither the

> > supplement combination or a PDE-5 inhibitor gave me any libido at

> > all. Libido, erection ability and orgasm quality and ability were

> all

> > vastly superior during days 5-20 of Stablon than to those of my

> three

> > years of PSSD when without that supplement combination or a PDE-5

> > inhibitor.

> > >

> > > - I have during my years of PSSD never achieved an erection

> > without strong physical stimulation. Now I could just sit and

> relax a

> > couple of minutes, and images of my woman would result in an

> erection

> > without any manual stimulation. Pre-PSSD the spontaneous erection

> > could arrive in seconds, now it took maybe a minute or more, but

> the

> > fact that it arrived at all is a drastic example of the fact that

> > Stablon without any doubt had a distinct pro-sexual effect on me.

> > >

> > > Day 10 the insomnia struck. That night, and every night except

> one

> > until day 24, I've had insomnia, severely. Just as I am to fall

> > asleep, naturally tired after a full day, I jolt back awake. I

> > finally get to sleep, an hour or more later. Even worse is waking

> up

> > at between 4 and 6 a.m., often from vivid dreams (maybe always,

> > sometimes if I think about it I recall that I have just had a

> vivid

> > dream). Since I tend not to be able to go back to sleep when I

> have

> > woken up in that way, a gradually worsened sleep deprivation made

> > each day difficult. After about day 20, the pro-sexual effects of

> > Stablon disappeared (libido, erection, orgasm), perhaps because of

> my

> > wretched state of insomnia, with 4-5 hours of sleep daily during

> the

> > preceeding 10 days.

> > >

> > > Stablon is rapidly eliminated, so I followed the ideal dosing

> > pattern which is one tablet for each of morning, afternoon and

> > evening. To combat the insomnia, I eliminated the evening tablet

> on

> > day 14, going down to 25 mg in daily dose. However, the jolt when

> > going to sleep and the early waking-ups continued unabated. I have

> > for many years, whether on or off medication, taken one 10 mg of

> the

> > AD Mianserin just before going to bed, with one extremely

> beneficial

> > effect: That one tablet - just one sixth of the average dose -

> lets

> > me go back to sleep immediately when I wake up at night to

> urinate.

> > Without that tablet, I lose an hour or more of sleep. I have never

> > noticed any other effect of the Mianserin. On day 17, I increased

> the

> > dose to 20 mg in the evening. Insomnia continued unabated, I

> didn't

> > go back to sleep when woken up by the dreams or whatever it was.

> All

> > through the trial of Stablon, I went back to sleep at once when

> woken

> > by the need to urinate; it's the Stablon-derived jolting wake-ups

> > that make me so awake I don't fall back asleep.

> > >

> > > The insomnia effect is pervasive: For many years I have done a

> 20-

> > minute combined meditation/nap after lunch, which gives me full

> > mental clarity during the rest of the day. Since around day 10 of

> > Stablon, however, I regularly woke up with a jolt about five

> minutes

> > into my ten minutes of light sleep, before I got the needed rest.

> > >

> > > On day 23, I increased the dose of Mainserin to 30 mg. Now I

> slept,

> > all of 7 hours; I did wake up once in the night from what was

> > probably vivid dreams, but went back to sleep fast. But the next

> day,

> > I was in a heavy, drugged state, with severely impaired focus and

> > concentration ability. I was in an even worse state than what the

> > sleep deprivation resulted in, much worse. If I´m not mistaken a

> > drugged feeling is a common side effect of Mianserin, and it

> struck

> > me when I upped the dose that high. So on Stablon it's either

> severe

> > insomnia or a severe drugged feeling, neither of which is

> tolerable.

> > The drugged feeling was so bad that I will probably only try that

> at

> > the most once more.

> > >

> > >

> > > If anybody has a possibe better alternative to suggest than

> > Mianserin to go back to sleep from the Stablon-derived wake-ups,

> > please let me know! In the first instance, I am hoping for a

> > suggestion of an alternative medication that just might (no matter

> > how small the chance) solve the problem just as beautifully and

> > apparently harmlessly that the tiny dose of Mianserin does for my

> > urination wake-ups year after year.

> > >

> > > I suppose I should also try something like meditation, which I

> > practice successfully every morning. But when I wake up from those

> > jolts, I kind of just cannot get into meditation. I get up, have

> to

> > do something, eat, read, walk around. I'll make a point of forcing

> > myself to meditate next time but I am not too optimistic about the

> > outcome. The wake-up is such a jolt that I probably have to get to

> a

> > much higher level in my meditation practice to be able to fall

> back

> > to sleep, which is likely to be beyond my capacity. But, as I

> write

> > this, I make up my mind to try the next night. I don't want to

> give

> > up Stablon without trying all possible remedies.

> > >

> > > On insomnia from Stablon (=tianeptine), I gleaned the

> following

> > from one article: " Insomnia occasionally occurs on starting

> > tianeptine. It soon subsides. Complex, vivid dreams on tianeptine

> are

> > common; but paradoxically, tianeptine can also be effective

> against

> > posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The mechanism behind

> tianeptine-

> > induced altered dreaming patterns is unknown. Possibly such dreams

> > reflect a cholinergic rebound due to its short (c. 2.5 hour)

> plasma

> > half-life; alternatively, they may be a dopaminergic effect. Or

> > neither, or both. Hippocampal remodelling may well be involved in

> > tianeptine-driven dreams too " .

> > >

> > > The article says " it soon subsides " . I have been through 15

> days

> > of severe insomnia. I may give it say five days more before

> quitting.

> > How long should one stick this out? When does " soon " loose its

> > meaning? That´s one of the things I'm pondering now, as my usually

> > focussed way of life is sharply disrupted.

> > >

> > > I'll stick to Stablon for a few more days, adjusting dosages and

> > timings in the hope of a break-through to combat the insomnia,

> > although admittedly the prospects do not look good. // Ulf

> > >

> >

>

>