Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 I had a similar situation , several days later, she presented with red steak on that breast and dx with masitis. She too had only blanching on one nipple. Sent from my iPhone Quick question ladies. Can a mom have Raynauds of just one nipple without ever having any of the other symptoms, like cold hands, feet etc... I have a mom with one nipple and breast in pain no apparent damage, no lumps, no visible signs of thrush on nipple or baby. She is on antibiotics and the description of fiery burning when the baby comes off and pinching when the baby is on (only on one side) seems like thrush. The baby has a slight asymmetry of the jaw so we tried a few different positions but the pain was still there. She had been using a nipple shield for the past 3 weeks. Despite this she is making huge amounts of milk. I observed her nurse the baby who's pre and post feeds measured 4 oz intake in less than 15 minutes. Then she pumped 4 ozs. an hour later the baby was on again and once again gulping. I thought another reason for the pain may just be her MER. Any thoughts.... Lou Moramarco IBCLC Birth, Breastfeeding & Beyond International Board Certified Lactation Consultant Bradley Childbirth Educator Certified Birth Doula (732) 239-7771 marylou22comcast (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Lou, The slight asymmetry of the jaw is the answer to your problem here. I have very frequently seen mothers who are only sore on one breast, or who have thrush they just can't get rid of but only on one breast or vasospasm in one breast, and the problem has always been that asymmetry in baby's jaw or neck or palate or something, has caused the baby to nurse differently on the two breasts. The thrush that won't go away is due to the fact that the baby doesn't damage one of the nipples, so the intact skin there protects that breast from thrush, but the nipple that is constantly being rubbed raw is constantly having microscopic holes put into the skin. Those microscopic holes give the thrush a foothold and it just doesn't leave until the asymmetry is corrected. Once baby can breastfeed correctly, then no new holes are being rubbed into the skin so thrush medication can actually work and the skin will heal. Unless mother's letdown is *very significantly* faster in the breast that has the vasospasm, then this is not likely to be the problem. If I am understanding your description properly, baby gets 4 oz from one breast in 15 minutes. So, if he can handle 4 oz from one breast without causing vasospasm, then he ought to be able to handle 4 oz from the other breast without causing pain there either. Still sounds like this is a baby problem rather than a mom problem, but the result is that mother is in pain. Dee Kassing Subject: RaynaudsTo: Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 8:35 AM Quick question ladies. Can a mom have Raynauds of just one nipple without ever having any of the other symptoms, like cold hands, feet etc... I have a mom with one nipple and breast in pain no apparent damage, no lumps, no visible signs of thrush on nipple or baby. She is on antibiotics and the description of fiery burning when the baby comes off and pinching when the baby is on (only on one side) seems like thrush. The baby has a slight asymmetry of the jaw so we tried a few different positions but the pain was still there. She had been using a nipple shield for the past 3 weeks. Despite this she is making huge amounts of milk. I observed her nurse the baby who's pre and post feeds measured 4 oz intake in less than 15 minutes. Then she pumped 4 ozs. an hour later the baby was on again and once again gulping. I thought another reason for the pain may just be her MER. Any thoughts.... Lou Moramarco IBCLC Birth, Breastfeeding & Beyond International Board Certified Lactation Consultant Bradley Childbirth Educator Certified Birth Doula marylou22comcast (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Thanks for the input. Of course when I called her the day after my visit, she now reports both breasts hurt my guess is because she has stopped using the nipple shield. Told her to use the hydrogels and make sure position was correct. I will keep this info in mind when I check back with her tomorrow. Lou Moramarco IBCLC, AAHCC Birth, Breastfeeding & Beyond International Board Certified Lactation Consultant Bradley Childbirth Educator Certified Birth Doula (732) 239-7771 marylou22@... " Breastfeeding reduces your chances of getting breast cancer (and the longer you nurse, the lower your risk) AND it also helps your daughter reduce HER chances of getting breast cancer! " From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dee Kassing Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 12:48 AM To: Subject: Re: Raynauds Lou, The slight asymmetry of the jaw is the answer to your problem here. I have very frequently seen mothers who are only sore on one breast, or who have thrush they just can't get rid of but only on one breast or vasospasm in one breast, and the problem has always been that asymmetry in baby's jaw or neck or palate or something, has caused the baby to nurse differently on the two breasts. The thrush that won't go away is due to the fact that the baby doesn't damage one of the nipples, so the intact skin there protects that breast from thrush, but the nipple that is constantly being rubbed raw is constantly having microscopic holes put into the skin. Those microscopic holes give the thrush a foothold and it just doesn't leave until the asymmetry is corrected. Once baby can breastfeed correctly, then no new holes are being rubbed into the skin so thrush medication can actually work and the skin will heal. Unless mother's letdown is *very significantly* faster in the breast that has the vasospasm, then this is not likely to be the problem. If I am understanding your description properly, baby gets 4 oz from one breast in 15 minutes. So, if he can handle 4 oz from one breast without causing vasospasm, then he ought to be able to handle 4 oz from the other breast without causing pain there either. Still sounds like this is a baby problem rather than a mom problem, but the result is that mother is in pain. Dee Kassing From: Lou <marylou22comcast (DOT) net> Subject: Raynauds To: Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 8:35 AM Quick question ladies. Can a mom have Raynauds of just one nipple without ever having any of the other symptoms, like cold hands, feet etc... I have a mom with one nipple and breast in pain no apparent damage, no lumps, no visible signs of thrush on nipple or baby. She is on antibiotics and the description of fiery burning when the baby comes off and pinching when the baby is on (only on one side) seems like thrush. The baby has a slight asymmetry of the jaw so we tried a few different positions but the pain was still there. She had been using a nipple shield for the past 3 weeks. Despite this she is making huge amounts of milk. I observed her nurse the baby who's pre and post feeds measured 4 oz intake in less than 15 minutes. Then she pumped 4 ozs. an hour later the baby was on again and once again gulping. I thought another reason for the pain may just be her MER. Any thoughts.... Lou Moramarco IBCLC Birth, Breastfeeding & Beyond International Board Certified Lactation Consultant Bradley Childbirth Educator Certified Birth Doula marylou22comcast (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Something to consider: Some babies react to an over-abundant let-down by bunching the tongue and clenching the nipple to slow the flow – does the baby get a MER right away and go right into a run of suck-swallows? Helped a mom with this recently – pinching, even cracking nipples, in spite of constantly correcting latch by every means imaginable; then figured it out and she now nurses in upright positions, or baby facing-down positions (Australian, diagonal across chest, self-attachment positions, reclined positions, baby sitting up for football pos., sitting on mom’s lap, straddling mom’s lap, etc). Pinching relieved, due to slowing the flow against gravity. We are naturally abdominal feeders anyway. See positional stability by Suzanne Colson (UK). From kellymom.com Help baby deal with the fast milk flow Position baby so that she is nursing " uphill " in relation to mom's breast, where gravity is working against the flow of milk. The most effective positions are those where baby's head and throat are above the level of your nipple. Some nursing positions to try: Cradle hold, but with mom leaning back (a recliner or lots of pillows helps) Football hold, but with mom leaning back Elevated football hold - like the football hold, but baby is sitting up and facing mom to nurse instead of lying down (good for nursing in public). Side lying position - this allows baby to dribble the extra milk out of her mouth when it's coming too fast Australian position (mom is " down under " , aka posture feeding) - in this position, mom is lying on her back and baby is on top (facing down), tummy to tummy with mom. Avoid using this positioning frequently, as it may lead to plugged ducts. Baby also had hyper gag – pulled back from over-active MER to lessen the gag as well; so did some suckle-training, also face-down positions help keep baby from pulling back, too. Really helped this couplet. Kept chin tucked in and asymmetric latch - HTH - Marie Marie Farver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Thanks Marie, I def think this is one of the issues. There seems to be a few. Milk production is NOT one of them. Extremely fast MER and gulping. When I got them in the bed and lying down tummy to tummy she said that did feel a lot better. I think that is what they have been doing now. Still had some burning feelings after baby nursed though. Thrush? Gentian violet and we will see if that helps. Lou Moramarco IBCLC, AAHCC Birth, Breastfeeding & Beyond International Board Certified Lactation Consultant Bradley Childbirth Educator Certified Birth Doula (732) 239-7771 marylou22@... " Breastfeeding reduces your chances of getting breast cancer (and the longer you nurse, the lower your risk) AND it also helps your daughter reduce HER chances of getting breast cancer! " From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marie Farver Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 12:36 AM To: Subject: Re: Raynauds Something to consider: Some babies react to an over-abundant let-down by bunching the tongue and clenching the nipple to slow the flow – does the baby get a MER right away and go right into a run of suck-swallows? Helped a mom with this recently – pinching, even cracking nipples, in spite of constantly correcting latch by every means imaginable; then figured it out and she now nurses in upright positions, or baby facing-down positions (Australian, diagonal across chest, self-attachment positions, reclined positions, baby sitting up for football pos., sitting on mom’s lap, straddling mom’s lap, etc). Pinching relieved, due to slowing the flow against gravity. We are naturally abdominal feeders anyway. See positional stability by Suzanne Colson (UK). From kellymom.com Help baby deal with the fast milk flow Position baby so that she is nursing " uphill " in relation to mom's breast, where gravity is working against the flow of milk. The most effective positions are those where baby's head and throat are above the level of your nipple. Some nursing positions to try: Cradle hold, but with mom leaning back (a recliner or lots of pillows helps) Football hold, but with mom leaning back Elevated football hold - like the football hold, but baby is sitting up and facing mom to nurse instead of lying down (good for nursing in public). Side lying position - this allows baby to dribble the extra milk out of her mouth when it's coming too fast Australian position (mom is " down under " , aka posture feeding) - in this position, mom is lying on her back and baby is on top (facing down), tummy to tummy with mom. Avoid using this positioning frequently, as it may lead to plugged ducts. Baby also had hyper gag – pulled back from over-active MER to lessen the gag as well; so did some suckle-training, also face-down positions help keep baby from pulling back, too. Really helped this couplet. Kept chin tucked in and asymmetric latch - HTH - Marie Marie Farver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 One other thing regarding this case (maybe I missed part of the discussion)- have you considered addressing the jaw assymetry? Chiro or CST? I recently had a case where baby's jaw was quite assymetrical despite lots of chiro. Lots of other probs, too, mainly low supply and sore nipples. Parents also noted slight head tilt (I did not notice it). On p. 222 in Support Sucking Skills by K. W. Genna, there is a pic of an infant with torticollis and an assymetrical jaw. Maybe have a look at that- to my understanding, therapy for torticollis should be started early, even if the pair needs to make what adjustments they can for breastfeeding until it gets better. RE: Re: Raynauds Thanks Marie, I def think this is one of the issues. There seems to be a few. Milk production is NOT one of them. Extremely fast MER and gulping. When I got them in the bed and lying down tummy to tummy she said that did feel a lot better. I think that is what they have been doing now. Still had some burning feelings after baby nursed though. Thrush? Gentian violet and we will see if that helps. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 I use B6, magnesium (Natural Calm) and vit D. I personally think the D is essential. I suggest 1000iu per 25 lb bodyweight. Tow, IBCLC, CT, USA > > I have a question about Raynauds. I have a first time mom who had severe > nipple damage at about 1.5 weeks of age. Now she experiences pain in her > breast, she says it hurts during feeding with letdown. We did correct latch > and that did help quite a bit. She watched for signs of blanching and > states that she has " spots of white " when nipples are closed. Then when > heat is applied they turn purplish blue. She says that the heat feels much > better to her. I do not see any signs of infections from the nipple trauma. > Nipples are healing with just a few small scabs on them, but are not opened. > I can not see any signs of yeast in baby or mom. Am I missing something? > Has anyone had any luck treating with b6 calcium and or magnesium? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Anne Banther RN, RLC > > Baby In Bloom > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Hi Anne, I recently learned that if a mother has severe nipple damage they are at risk for Raynauds type symptoms on that area. That sounds like what this mother is going through. I had a mother with bilateral damage and still struggles with nipple pain during and after feeds. Warm compresses afterward help. I have not heard of using the vitamins. Sounds interesting. June I have a question about Raynauds. I have a first time mom who had severe nipple damage at about 1.5 weeks of age. Now she experiences pain in her breast, she says it hurts during feeding with letdown. We did correct latch and that did help quite a bit. Anne Banther RN, RLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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