Re: Avoidance

[Guest guest]

Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

would you get rid of them? How do you determine the pants are a

problem? Especially when your body may well be reacting

internally and you can't tell for sure.

The point I keep pushing with you and the others is how do each

of us determine what is causing our reactions and what isn't? We

obviously can't just keep buying new clothes. There's a limit. We

obviously can't afford to just keep moving from place to place

without some sort of plan to determine if the new place is better

than the old one. Are you healthier now than before you moved

out of the house? Some on this group have moved into a bad

place and now can't afford to move again. What do they do to

stop their suffering?

I've asked the group this before: How do you decide what you are

reacting to and what you aren't? If you don't know or can't figure it

out then how do you stop the reactions? If multiple sources, how

do you prioritize which to focus on first? How do you know the

reactions are not from external exposures, but something internal

instead?

If we can't answer these questions, and experiment at least a

little to find out, won't we just keep repeating the same mistakes?

How do we get better at managing our exposures to stop from

getting sicker?

There are a number on this group who have figured it out, most

of whom have left because they don't need us anymore. A couple

have discussed this just today. What do others do?

If 50 people told you the problem was you are wearing orange

socks, would you stop wearing orange socks? Of course not!

That means you do have some method for making decisions

rather than blindly doing whatever the next person suggests or

demands. YOU must decide. How do you do that? This

discussion is what would help a lot of us who are still struggling.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thank you Carl, my only reply is, is your health worth a pair of pants?

I've talked to 50 people since my initial exposure and they've all said rh

[Guest guest]

We don't have to agree in this group on avoidance. If we all lived in the same

house and had to decide jointly on what to do that would be different!! We

would have to agree what to do, since our actions would affect each other. A

person's beliefs, decisions and actions affect only themselves, so no reason to

be upset by other people having different opinions.

>

> Tug, I'm not trying to cause drama, infact, the opposite.

>

[Guest guest]

IF your house was very moldy and it was the only place in the world that was,

THEN leaving everything there and leaving right away would make PERFECT sense.

However there are alot of sick bldgs, sick from water damage or other things and

how do you know " new " things you buy or get are any better than the ones you

have? I tried to tell this to friend that was pressuring me to move into an

apartment in a hurry. I said if I couldn't tell my house had a problem for four

years even AFTER I joined this group, how could I walk into an apt for a few

minutes and decide it would be a healthy place for me? He finally talked me

into it and turned out I was right...I was SICKER there. They had these

baseboard heaters that were clogged with years of dirt and a older of dead

animal in basement and stairwell I didn't smell when I looked at it, and when

neighbors moved, bugs ran into my apartment. My own home was pristine by

comparison to that place. It was a waste of my time and money and had an effect

on my health. So since your place is not the only place in town w problems, how

do you know clothes you buy weren't store in contaminated place, the fabric

wasn't made at contaminated place, weresn't taken home and kept for awhile at

someones 'worse' house and then returned to store, etc, etc, etc.. You believe

what you beleive but don't force it on others.

>

> The question is: Works for who?

>

> There is no single protocol which works for everyone.

[Guest guest]

sorry to hear that dragonflymcs, it'a long hard road for many of us.

maybe they are colonized. I've been out of the WDB for 9 years, but have only

practiced advoidance for around 5 years, late last year I started noticeing a

change in my hypersensitive reactions but I'm pretty sure it's related more to

the allergy part of this for me.

cant say my allergies have disappeared but the last time the IgE was checked it

was 0. down from around 18 a few years before, not sure what that means but

practiceing advoidance and washing the sinuses has helped with the allergies as

well as the chemical sensitivities.

some re-exposures can still knock me for a lupe, and different ones affect me in

different ways, but I can tolerate some things better than I use to.

even now if I felling worse over all,sometimes or most times do to being

colonized, re-exposures than affect me worse than at other times when I'm

felling better.

still cant spend much time is places were some is even mildly getting to me as I

keep felling worse and worse.

it may be that the unmasking and the sensitivies do get worse in ways before

they get better. hard to explain, maybe it's do to colonization. I do believe

that more people are getting colonized with these WDB exposures than whats being

realized, but at the same time I can see where differences in the WDB itself

would make a difference.

I spent years not really thinking it was very possable to get colonized from

these exposures but at the same time I knew there was something still going on

within my body that was playing havic, no matter what I did or tried.

it wasn't until I tried the antifungal nasal spray and had relief with the

polops in my sinuses, and when I read about biofilms's it all finally started

makeing more sence.

sometimes I fell it's kindof useless to try to help anyone going through this,

we cant give alot of good advice without getting alot of details and they cant

see beyond what they precieve until they get educated and by the time that

happens they should be able to help theirself and not really need any advice.

so really it is a road we all must travel alone to one extent or another.

>

> Their problems began in their 40's but they have children just as ill in their

> 20's. 

>

>  

>  

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: osisposis <jeaninem660@...>

>

> Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 3:50:02 PM

> Subject: [] Re: Avoidance

>

>  

> dragonfly, was wondering how old they are, our defence systems

> decline with age from around I think I read 50 or 60, that could play a role

in

> the ability to recover.

>

> lots of things out there to worry about that can keep us sick. I couldn't

> believe the difference in how I felt day to day by just getting a brita

pitcher

> and filtering my water.

>

> so much to think about.

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, you say " We obviously can't afford to just keep moving from place to place

without some sort of plan to determine if the new place is better than the old

one. " I couldnt agree more.

Of course if you visit a new place and start to react, get the hell out. But

what if like me, you dont have reactions fast enough (except to chemicals) to be

able to pinpoint what exactly cause my symtpoms.

Maybe we could compile a list of factors that are more frequently linked to

problems. For example someone posted that the bathroom 's sealing in his/her

motel room was waiting for a disaster. So if we could describe what a bathroom

" waiting for a disaster " looks like, we could make better decisions.

It would really be awesome if you, Dr Thrasher and would put together a

list of elements to look for or to avoid if possible when moving to another

location. Because I think experience (as in having seen many houses/appartments

causing health problems) is perhaps the best predictor of future problems.

Or maybe that list already exist and someone can tell me where to find it?

[Guest guest]

I also read in another thread that if you arent gonna leave everything behind,

washing clothes in 1cup of ammonia/load of laundry should suffice to remove a

great deal of mold/toxins. Is there some consensus on that?

[Guest guest]

When we left our moldy motor home our clothes had a peculiar smell.  I washed

them with the ammonia and the smell came out and I was not reactive to them.  I

have been able to keep my clothes & fabrics I use for sewing. I bought ammonian

wipes to clean hard surfaces & used C. Grimes suggestion of GSE/water to spray

in A/C of vehicle.  I have cross contaminated our small motor home but it still

is a refuge for me. I am sensitive some what to chemicals but not overly now. 

In the '94 I was so sensitive I could not leave my house but after a rigid

problem of diet & detox & prayer I was healed of severe sensitivities.  Only

formaldehyde bothers me now and maybe a perfume might annoy me. I personally

found this cross contamination  very confusing but as I sought after answers on

this board and talking to a few and experimenting with cleaning the items and

testing I am more at peace with keeping the stuff rather than throwing it all

out.  Although I am

prepared to do this if I find it hindering my healing. We really are so

different in our reactions to our environment.

 

 But I have done so well on the CMS-a ton of symptoms left after 3 mos on

it. Just recently I am experiencing a setback for we are house sitting at

the moment and it has mold and leaves outside everywhere and I have some

symptoms back.  We are leaving on Monday and I am hoping I will regain my

health. My Dr told me b/c of my genotype I can walk into a place & be the only

one affected---so now my journey of finding safes places begisn. I pray that

you will be led to do what is the very best for you. 

From: lyme_exterminator <wanna_party_in_LA@...>

Subject: [] Re: Avoidance

Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:34 AM

 

I also read in another thread that if you arent gonna leave everything behind,

washing clothes in 1cup of ammonia/load of laundry should suffice to remove a

great deal of mold/toxins. Is there some consensus on that?

[Guest guest]

what is GSE? I actually do suspect that the AC of my car might be contaminated

because many times I turn it on I have something akin to an allergic reaction.

In lyme forums I think GSE=grape seed extracts So you just mix that other GSE

in water, put it in a spray bottle and shoot in the AC vents?

what about putting ammonia in water in a spray bottle and shooting that?

Also, after you wash your clothes with ammonia, do they smell like it? How many

washes does it take to go away?

>

> When we left our moldy motor home our clothes had a peculiar smell.  I washed

them with the ammonia and the smell came out and I was not reactive to them.  I

have been able to keep my clothes & fabrics I use for sewing. I bought ammonian

wipes to clean hard surfaces & used C. Grimes suggestion of GSE/water to spray

in A/C of vehicle.  I have cross contaminated our small motor home but it still

is a refuge for me. I am sensitive some what to chemicals but not overly now. 

In the '94 I was so sensitive I could not leave my house but after a rigid

problem of diet & detox & prayer I was healed of severe sensitivities.  Only

formaldehyde bothers me now and maybe a perfume might annoy me. I personally

found this cross contamination  very confusing but as I sought after answers on

this board and talking to a few and experimenting with cleaning the items and

testing I am more at peace with keeping the stuff rather than throwing it all

out.  Although I am

> prepared to do this if I find it hindering my healing. We really are so

different in our reactions to our environment.

>  

>  But I have done so well on the CMS-a ton of symptoms left after 3 mos on

it. Just recently I am experiencing a setback for we are house sitting at

the moment and it has mold and leaves outside

[Guest guest]

Lyme-ext, Carl has a book out on healthy homes and Jeff May, also of this group,

has several out. Reading these gives you an idea of what to look for, what 'is'

a healthy home. Maybe start a notebook and make your list of things to look

for. Maybe we as a group in the future sometime could start to compile a list

of things we look for, that wouldn't be considered complete.

>

> Carl, you say " We obviously can't afford to just keep moving from place to

place without some sort of plan to determine if the new place is better than the

old one. " I couldnt agree more.

>

> Of course if you visit a new place and start to react, get the hell out. But

what if like me, you dont have reactions fast enough (except to chemicals) to be

able to pinpoint what exactly cause my symtpoms.

>

> Maybe we could compile a list of factors that are more frequently linked to

problems. For example someone posted that the bathroom 's sealing in his/her

motel room was waiting for a disaster. So if we could describe what a bathroom

" waiting for a disaster " looks like, we could make better decisions.

>

> It would really be awesome if you, Dr Thrasher and would put together a

list of elements to look for or to avoid if possible when moving to another

location. Because I think experience (as in having seen many houses/appartments

causing health problems) is perhaps the best predictor of future problems.

>

> Or maybe that list already exist and someone can tell me where to find it?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl,  

 

In my particular case I am very reactive almost immediately on everything, most

all.  In regards to clothes I get a respiratoty reaction, swollen throat,

immediately.  So I know right away it is bad.  I had no odor here when we

came. 

There was cleaner smell and the products were in here.  So we asked they be

removed and the place vented.  The owners did and when we came back still some

but more faint.  We then left the place open some windows.  We put baking soda

everywhere in cups and then the smells were gone. 

My smell is acute now, I could smell nothing else.  Except in laundry room. 

For

months I could smell nothing here, then summer came and the place had to be

closed up.  After about a month I think (or so) heavy rains here too.  An odor

appeared in a room.  We did not use it so we left it opened all the time. 

Now I

do believe it got wet somewhere cause the smell is stronger and I react to it. 

Still canot find water damage.

Still when we closed the place up I had no respiratory reactions , no smell, but

did not feel good.  And I cannot put my finger on it.  So something is wrong

here, but no reactions that I normally get.  Except now for that one room.. 

So

very very hard to find a place period.  I let my nose lead me and my lungs and

yet something I could not smell was making me sick.  Making the choice with no

testing is very very hard.

My clothes though, I can tell because I cannot breathe.  So I guess if hidden

mold or bad remediation maybe with no smell, HOW CAN YOU TELL ???  I am lost

now.  Owners are almost always not honest.  Like my current ones who did not

tell us they were in forclosure...................................... 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 10:35:43 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Avoidance

 

Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

would you get rid of them?

[Guest guest]

worked for me, I also used dawn dish soap with it.

some thing took a few washings , but yes the ammonia helped alot with getting

the smell out.

>

> I also read in another thread that if you arent gonna leave everything behind,

washing clothes in 1cup of ammonia/load of laundry should suffice to remove a

great deal of mold/toxins. Is there some consensus on that?

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, personally I believe in EXTREME avoidance. IMO that's the only way to

survive mold exposure. This is only my opinion but as long as you drag anything

that's been contaminated from one place to another at best you'll only partially

recover. I live off a limited income my total wardrobe costs me slightly over

100.00 come Sunday I'll throw all my belongings away and start all over from

scratch. If anyone knows about living on below the poverty level that would be

me but because I'm the only one thats been affected I can get away with living

on the most basics necessities of life. (V told me to tell you hello)

>

> Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

> food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

> would you get rid of them? How do you determine the pants are a

> problem? Especially when your body may well be reacting

> internally and you can't tell for sure.

>

> The point I keep pushing with you and the others is how do each

> of us determine what is causing our reactions and what isn't? We

> obviously can't just keep buying new clothes. There's a limit. We

> obviously can't afford to just keep moving from place to place

> without some sort of plan to determine if the new place is better

> than the old one. Are you healthier now than before you moved

> out of the house? Some on this group have moved into a bad

> place and now can't afford to move again. What do they do to

> stop their suffering?

>

> I've asked the group this before: How do you decide what you are

> reacting to and what you aren't? If you don't know or can't figure it

> out then how do you stop the reactions? If multiple sources, how

> do you prioritize which to focus on first? How do you know the

> reactions are not from external exposures, but something internal

> instead?

>

> If we can't answer these questions, and experiment at least a

> little to find out, won't we just keep repeating the same mistakes?

> How do we get better at managing our exposures to stop from

> getting sicker?

>

> There are a number on this group who have figured it out, most

> of whom have left because they don't need us anymore. A couple

> have discussed this just today. What do others do?

>

> If 50 people told you the problem was you are wearing orange

> socks, would you stop wearing orange socks? Of course not!

> That means you do have some method for making decisions

> rather than blindly doing whatever the next person suggests or

> demands. YOU must decide. How do you do that? This

> discussion is what would help a lot of us who are still struggling.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> Thank you Carl, my only reply is, is your health worth a pair of pants?

> I've talked to 50 people since my initial exposure and they've all said rh

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I like your advice Carl. You can't throw away everything, though Tug is right

that some things are not worth it. My experience is different than most of you

in that I do not have most of the ill effects that you have. I am extremely

hyperreactive, going into a severe cough within seconds of some exposures.

Interestingly, one recent problem was my wife spending a few hours in a very

moldy building. I reacted to her as soon as she walked in the door of our home.

I reacted to the chair she sat down on. I reacted to her car. I reacted

particularly badly to her hair. Fortunately, her clothes were fine after being

washed (high heat in the dryer), she was fine after showering, her upholstered

chair was fine after spending a warm fall day in the sun, and her car was fine

after fumigating a week with pans of Clorox. Because I am so hyperreactive, it's

easier for me to tell what bothers me. I have found an old shirt left outside

under the deck a month, very moldy and causing reaction; non-reactive after

washing, though discarded since mold stain didn't wash out. I have never had

clothes so contaminated that laundering would not solve the problem, though a

few detergents caused me to react, particularly a few which highlight cleaning

enzymes on the box.

Each person must refrain from paranoia and experiment to see what is

salvagable and use common sense to balance to cost-benefit relationship of what

is financially managable versus the cost of health damage.

Re: Avoidance

Posted by: " Carl E. Grimes " grimes@... grimeshh

Date: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:36 pm ((PST))

Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

would you get rid of them? How do you determine the pants are a

problem? Especially when your body may well be reacting

internally and you can't tell for sure.

[Guest guest]

Gil-quick question-aren't you afraid of putting super moldy stuff in your

washer? I just had to replace a practically brand new washer because of mold in

it that I could not get rid of (no matter how much washing and bleaching I did).

I had previously used my washer to clean things that seemed moldy and I did have

great success but...

I now have a complete lockdown on my washer. My daughters (who don't live at

home but like to use Mommy's free washer) are forbidden to wash their clothes in

it just in case there's something bad.

>

> I like your advice Carl. You can't throw away everything, though Tug is

right that some things are not worth it. My experience is different than most of

you in that I do not have most of the ill effects that you have. I am extremely

hyperreactive, going into a severe cough within seconds of some exposures.

Interestingly, one recent problem was my wife spending a few hours in a very

moldy building. I reacted to her as soon as she walked in the door of our home.

I reacted to the chair she sat down on. I reacted to her car. I reacted

particularly badly to her hair. Fortunately, her clothes were fine after being

washed (high heat in the dryer), she was fine after showering, her upholstered

chair was fine after spending a warm fall day in the sun, and her car was fine

after fumigating a week with pans of Clorox. Because I am so hyperreactive, it's

easier for me to tell what bothers me. I have found an old shirt left outside

under the deck a month, very moldy and causing reaction; non-reactive after

washing, though discarded since mold stain didn't wash out. I have never had

clothes so contaminated that laundering would not solve the problem, though a

few detergents caused me to react, particularly a few which highlight cleaning

enzymes on the box.

> Each person must refrain from paranoia and experiment to see what is

salvagable and use common sense to balance to cost-benefit relationship of what

is financially managable versus the cost of health damage.

>

>

> Re: Avoidance

> Posted by: " Carl E. Grimes " grimes@... grimeshh

> Date: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:36 pm ((PST))

>

> Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

> food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

> would you get rid of them? How do you determine the pants are a

> problem? Especially when your body may well be reacting

> internally and you can't tell for sure.

>

[Guest guest]

Have you tried carbon filter MCS air purifiers for the odors? You can get them

with UV for mold. Have you had a mold remediator come in and look the place

over?

I will pray for you, Mayleen. Take care, and I really hope you find answers to

this challenge. Don't give up.

On Dec 17, 2010, at 1:35 PM, dragonflymcs wrote:

> Hi Carl,

>

> In my particular case I am very reactive almost immediately on everything,

most

> all. In regards to clothes I get a respiratoty reaction, swollen throat,

> immediately. So I know right away it is bad. I had no odor here when we

came.

> There was cleaner smell and the products were in here. So we asked they be

> removed and the place vented. The owners did and when we came back still some

> but more faint. We then left the place open some windows. We put baking soda

> everywhere in cups and then the smells were gone.

>

> My smell is acute now, I could smell nothing else. Except in laundry room.

For

> months I could smell nothing here, then summer came and the place had to be

> closed up. After about a month I think (or so) heavy rains here too. An odor

> appeared in a room. We did not use it so we left it opened all the time. Now

I

> do believe it got wet somewhere cause the smell is stronger and I react to it.

> Still canot find water damage.

>

> Still when we closed the place up I had no respiratory reactions , no smell,

but

> did not feel good. And I cannot put my finger on it. So something is wrong

> here, but no reactions that I normally get. Except now for that one room..

So

> very very hard to find a place period. I let my nose lead me and my lungs and

> yet something I could not smell was making me sick. Making the choice with no

> testing is very very hard.

>

> My clothes though, I can tell because I cannot breathe. So I guess if hidden

> mold or bad remediation maybe with no smell, HOW CAN YOU TELL ??? I am lost

> now. Owners are almost always not honest. Like my current ones who did not

> tell us they were in forclosure......................................

>

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

>

> ________________________________

> From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

>

> Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 10:35:43 PM

> Subject: Re: [] Re: Avoidance

>

>

> Dave, of course not. But if you have little money and you need

> food and the pair of pants isn't part of the problem then why

> would you get rid of them?

>

[Guest guest]

I started washing my clothes in Borax. And someone told me fels naptha is good

on laundry, also.

As for a healthy building, I don't know if it will help, but as far as I can

understand them, Bau Biologie and Ecology in Florida trains professionals

(architects, doctors, construction workers) and layman alike on how to build

health buildings and also how to make the ones you live in safer. They have

some free videos to watch online and you can also pay for classes to take

online. I haven't taken any yet but am very interested. You may wish to check

them out and see what you can glean from the free videos and whether they

inspire you to study further with them. Education is empowering.

On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:31 AM, lyme_exterminator wrote:

> what is GSE? I actually do suspect that the AC of my car might be contaminated

because many times I turn it on I have something akin to an allergic reaction.

>

> In lyme forums I think GSE=grape seed extracts So you just mix that other

GSE in water, put it in a spray bottle and shoot in the AC vents?

>

> what about putting ammonia in water in a spray bottle and shooting that?

>

> Also, after you wash your clothes with ammonia, do they smell like it? How

many washes does it take to go away?

>

[Guest guest]

Do you have one? Can you recommend a brand or model? I would like to put one in

my basement, which is unfinished, so it has that cementy smell sometimes when

I'm feeling more sensitive.

Thanks! Surella

>

> Have you tried carbon filter MCS air purifiers for the odors? You can get

them with UV for mold. Have you had a mold remediator come in and look the

place over?

>

> I will pray for you, Mayleen. Take care, and I really hope you find answers

to this challenge. Don't give up.

>

[Guest guest]

I have the caughing too Gil, and my airways close up, balance goes way off.

weakness,ect. RADS, happens with most exposures but not all.

>

> I like your advice Carl. You can't throw away everything, though Tug is

right that some things are not worth it. My experience is different than most of

you in that I do not have most of the ill effects that you have. snip