Re: suffering

[Guest guest]

Deb:

Such a sad painful memory to live with. I have no desire to take that

from you. The world has many stories of cruelty. It sucks. A

question that comes to mind that may be worth exploring....

Is your sister suffering now?

Holding you dear One,

doug

>

> Turnaround: My sister did not suffer when her throat was slit. True

> or truer? I just can't seem to find it, yet I do feel more

> peaceful. It seems too good to be true, like a balm so that I don't

> have to face what happened to her.

>

> Turnaround: My thinking suffers. That feels maybe a little truer.

>

> I'm willing to think of my sister's suffering as an opportunity to do

> the Work. I look forward to thoughts of my sister's suffering as an

> opportunity to do the Work.

>

> Any suggestions? Thank you.

>

> Deb

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Doug.

A Buddhist teacher cheerfully informed me that we can't really know

if the dead are suffering or not. Some Buddhists believe in the

bardo realms and reincarnation. My sister could be suffering in some

new and unknown ways that my little thoughts don't even touch...

I don't happen to believe in bardo realms or reincarnation but I

can't KNOW that they're not true. I choose to think my sister is not

suffering now. I can certainly think of a reason to drop the thought

of her suffering at all. It just ain't happened yet.

The more I talk about my sister's suffering, the more I glimpse that

it is " just thoughts. " Reality was kinder, I suppose, in that my

sister just died once and my thoughts keep coming day after day.

It's my thoughts that don't let go.

Deb

-

-- In Loving-what-is@y..., " wideeyesus " <wideeyesus@y...> wrote:

> Deb:

>

> Such a sad painful memory to live with. I have no desire to take

that

> from you. The world has many stories of cruelty. It sucks. A

> question that comes to mind that may be worth exploring....

>

> Is your sister suffering now?

>

> Holding you dear One,

>

>

> doug

>

> >

> > Turnaround: My sister did not suffer when her throat was slit.

True

> > or truer? I just can't seem to find it, yet I do feel more

> > peaceful. It seems too good to be true, like a balm so that I

don't

> > have to face what happened to her.

> >

> > Turnaround: My thinking suffers. That feels maybe a little truer.

> >

> > I'm willing to think of my sister's suffering as an opportunity

to do

> > the Work. I look forward to thoughts of my sister's suffering as

an

> > opportunity to do the Work.

> >

> > Any suggestions? Thank you.

> >

> > Deb

[Guest guest]

Deb,

I can't imagine how hard this has been for you. Just hearing it is hard for

me. My brother showed me a video today of Pearl's speech/execution

sent by the Pakistans. It was not pretty and much like what happened to your

sister. I didn't even know how to begin the work on it. I was horrified. I

can't even voice what you are voicing since I'm still shocked by the sight.

It's so hard for me to find a place to start. So, as I watch you unfold

this story, it helps me.

I keep hearing the same thoughts as you: They are just thoughts. I'm

suffering as I think about this over and over in my mind. She/he are not

suffering any more.

But the feeling(s) remain. I guess it's times like this we realize why

sometimes it takes doing the work over and over until we find peace.

Allowing it to take us until we see clearly.

Thank you for speaking for me,

Laurie O.

-- Re: suffering

Thanks, Doug.

A Buddhist teacher cheerfully informed me that we can't really know

if the dead are suffering or not. Some Buddhists believe in the

bardo realms and reincarnation. My sister could be suffering in some

new and unknown ways that my little thoughts don't even touch...

I don't happen to believe in bardo realms or reincarnation but I

can't KNOW that they're not true. I choose to think my sister is not

suffering now. I can certainly think of a reason to drop the thought

of her suffering at all. It just ain't happened yet.

The more I talk about my sister's suffering, the more I glimpse that

it is " just thoughts. " Reality was kinder, I suppose, in that my

sister just died once and my thoughts keep coming day after day.

It's my thoughts that don't let go.

Deb

-

-- In Loving-what-is@y..., " wideeyesus " <wideeyesus@y...> wrote:

> Deb:

>

> Such a sad painful memory to live with. I have no desire to take

that

> from you. The world has many stories of cruelty. It sucks. A

> question that comes to mind that may be worth exploring....

>

> Is your sister suffering now?

>

> Holding you dear One,

>

>

> doug

>

> >

> > Turnaround: My sister did not suffer when her throat was slit.

True

> > or truer? I just can't seem to find it, yet I do feel more

> > peaceful. It seems too good to be true, like a balm so that I

don't

> > have to face what happened to her.

> >

> > Turnaround: My thinking suffers. That feels maybe a little truer.

> >

> > I'm willing to think of my sister's suffering as an opportunity

to do

> > the Work. I look forward to thoughts of my sister's suffering as

an

> > opportunity to do the Work.

> >

> > Any suggestions? Thank you.

> >

> > Deb

[Guest guest]

> It's my thoughts that don't let go.

>

> Deb

Yes. Boy do I understand that. And how could we know freedom if we

didn't experience suffering?

A warm hug for you my friend,

Doug

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the hug...

Sometimes I have a sense that my sister and brother-in-law died " for "

me, that I have glimpses of truth through dealing with their murders

that I would not have otherwise. I see them smiling at me and feel

enormous gratitude toward them.

I did the Work on my thought that " Good is not possible without evil "

and got some insights. I'm going to do " we can't know freedom

without suffering " and see if I can " undo " a little more...

Take care.

Deb

>

> > It's my thoughts that don't let go.

> >

> > Deb

>

>

> Yes. Boy do I understand that. And how could we know freedom if

we

> didn't experience suffering?

>

> A warm hug for you my friend,

> Doug

[Guest guest]

Deb and all, thank you for the incredible honesty and love with which

you are sharing your experiences.

I don't know what else to say, to me the experiences like having a

loved one murdered etc. are way too deep to be dealt with using

words, no matter what those words are. Perhaps it is a cultural

thing...

I have been through enlightenment dyads, where one sits through long

periods of 'who am i' contemplation, and experiences breakthroughs of

oneness with the universe. Perhaps this is an attempt at something

similar, but that is as far as i can get about it.

Will continue to try and understand, thank you everyone for letting

me be here!

Love

M..

[Guest guest]

Deb,

I feel from reading your Work that it is very challenging for you

right now to investigate the thought " My sister didn't suffer " when

appearances and everything you know about life and being in a body

points to the opposite - that she did suffer.

I have the thought that it might be gentler for you to

investigate " she shouldn't have suffered " . This might allow you to

embrace more of where you are at with it.

When I started doing the Work at first with very painful issues it

was impossible for me to take that first bald statement and inquire

into it. For example: " I hate Steve because he wants to be with other

women " .

Is it true he wants to be with other women? There was no way I could

get a " no " answer to that - when everything pointed to " yes " .

When I went with " He shouldn't want to be with other women " , I found

I wasn't arguing with my mind so much and I could let myself grieve

feeling unloved at the same time as finding more truth for myself.

These are my thoughts, Deb, as I join with you in this.

Love, Margaret

>

> Deb, do you want to know the truth?

>

> I think so, though it feels scary.

>

> My sister suffered when she had her throat slit and did not die

until

> later when she was shot. My sister suffered. Is it true? Yes.

>

> Can you absolutely know that she suffered? Yes.

>

> Can you absolutely know WHAT she suffered? No, but it's obvious

THAT

> she suffered.

>

> Really? Yes. The people in concentration camps suffered, the

people

> who died from the Black Plague suffered. Geez, everywhere you

look,

> people suffer. Buddha said life is suffering. Certainly my sister

> suffered when her throat was slit by an 18-year-old man who called

> her a bitch because she couldn't get the safe open fast enough.

>

> Can YOU absolutely know that SHE suffered? NO. I only KNOW that

I'm

> suffering. Is that the answer you want? Is that good enough?

>

> Be gentle with your self.

>

> How in the hell can I be gentle when the world is not gentle?

>

> Stay with inquiry. Can you absolutely know that your sister

> suffered? All right. All I can say is that it seems highly, highly

> likely.

>

> Can you absolutely KNOW that your sister suffered? No.

>

> How do you react when you think the thought: my sister suffered

when

> her throat was slit? I feel overwhelming sadness, powerlessness,

> rage at What Is. Why didn't I die instead of my sister? why did

she

> have to suffer? Why does my family have to go on living with her

> suffering? Why does the man, who slit my sister's throat and now

has

> a wife and a five year-old child, why does he have to go to prison

> and probably bring on another generation of suffering? (Can you

> absolutely know that THAT is true? Of course not) Why didn't he

> think ahead? Why, why, why? I cry and cry. None of it makes

> sense. (Life should make sense. Next inquiry)

>

> Who would you be without the thought: my sister suffered when her

> throat was slit? I don't know. A fool? An idiot? How can

someone

> not suffer when their throat is slit? It just seems ludicrous.

>

> Go deeper, Deb. Who would you be without the thought that plagues

> you? Who would YOU be? I don't know. I'd be outside humanity

> somehow. I'd be alone with only the members of this group for

> company. I'd have to think that nobody ever suffers, right? I

feel

> like a liar, a Holocaust denier. Nobody ever suffers anything,

this

> is all a happy dream. Bullshit.

>

> Deb, who would you be, right now, sitting at your computer without

> the thought that your sister suffered when her throat was slit?

>

> I'd be empty. Without thought. Peaceful. My sister's ashes are in

> her grave. I'm here typing. That's what is. What's so bad about

> that?

>

> And still I cry. How can I get rid of the thought? says I

> can't get rid of the thought. In fact, cannot " drop " the thought.

> OK.

>

> Can you think of a REASON to drop the thought? Yes. I'd suffer

less.

>

> Can you think of a reason to keep the thought that does not cause

> stress? Not really. It makes me sad whenever I think of my

sister's

> death. It's definitely stressful.

>

> Turnaround: My sister did not suffer when her throat was slit.

True

> or truer? I just can't seem to find it, yet I do feel more

> peaceful. It seems too good to be true, like a balm so that I

don't

> have to face what happened to her.

>

> Turnaround: My thinking suffers. That feels maybe a little truer.

>

> I'm willing to think of my sister's suffering as an opportunity to

do

> the Work. I look forward to thoughts of my sister's suffering as

an

> opportunity to do the Work.

>

> Any suggestions? Thank you.

>

> Deb

[Guest guest]

Deb wrote:

> How in the hell can I be gentle when the world is not gentle?

Remember that says to be judgmental and petty when you write

down your thoughts. The judgment is, as Margaret pointed out, " My

sister shouldn't have had to suffer, " or by extension, " People

shouldn't have to suffer. "

That's where you can start with Inquiry. Is it true that people

shouldn't have to suffer? That people shouldn't die " before they've

lived a full life? " says that everyone, even an infant who dies

in its crib, has lived a full life. Of course, we could subject that

statement to Inquiry too. :-)

So to the phrase I quoted, which could be restated as, " I can't be

gentle when the world is not gentle. " Is that true? Where does

gentleness start, with the world or in me? " The world is not gentle. "

Is THAT true? Not entirely. I can find lots of gentleness in the

world. I think it depends a great deal upon what I look for. " The

world (and I) should be gentle. " Can we really know that? Would we

learn and grow if the world were always gentle?

The reality is that your sister suffered and died. NOW you have a

choice about what to do with that. Grieving is natural, and I

wouldn't suggest you cut it short. But after the grieving is done,

you can continue to fight reality, or you can go on with your life.

Maybe there's something you can do with your life that will help keep

others from dying the way your sister did. That could be a choice if

you want it. Another choice would be to contact someone like

Van Praagh. He might be able to put you in touch with your sister.

The point is, though, that it takes a lot of effort to fight reality.

Expending all that effort tends to leave one depressed. Our natural

state is to love what is. Somewhere along the line, as children,

we're taught that things shouldn't be as they are. From then on we're

confused. The confusion causes stress. 's work aims to relieve

that confusion.

Peace and love,

Warren