[OT] Re: Offenses

[Guest guest]

Since you posted this publicly, instead of privately, I shall reply the

same way. But only once. And then no more from me on this subject.

julianawooley@... wrote:

> Dear Annie,

[snip]

> (personally, I see no support what-so-

> ever of any genetic cause for homosexuality. . .

Here are some studies for you:

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~smccarte/homosexuality/genetics.html

http://www.geocities.com/smooth_velvett/homosex.html

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/ftp/bulgarians/nih-nyt.htm

There's also one on MedLine called " Sexuality Hardwired? " but I couldn't

get it to download. And this is what I found in a quick search only.

> What is it about sin that upsets you so?

I would think that sin would upset everyone religious.

> >>There is no " homosexual agenda. " In order for a group to formulate

> an

> agenda, it's necessary that they have a rather large meeting. I don't

> recall this happening. The so-called " homosexual agenda " is a

> right-wing bugaboo. It tries to cast gay people as a group trying to

> take over something, evidently heterosexuals. Considering that there

> are very very few gays who did not come from straight families, this

> is

> patently ridiculous.<<

>

> You would be hard-pressed to find many homosexuals that were birthed

> by homosexual parents. If it's genetic, as you say, how can that be?

Many lesbians become pregnant and have children. Since the research

shows that the genetics for homosexuality are carried only on X

chromosomes (ie, female chromosomes), it is entirely possible for

lesbians to have gay or lesbian children, depending on whether they were

born male or female.

> How does a person carry the genes for homosexuality yet ~only~ pass

> it to their young and not be homosexual themselves?

How did my dh's aunt have a child with a genetic disorder and not have

it herself? How did I have an autistic son and not be autistic myself?

How do those who give birth to children with Tay Sachs Syndrome

without having it themselves? Genetics is a crap shoot. You cannot

guarantee that because you have no genetic disability that your children

won't. And you can't guarantee that a latent gene, or one carried only

by the female in a family (like hemophilia) won't pop up in one's children.

> an agenda goes, ~everyone, every group has an agenda, and

> homosexuals are no different. You bet they have one, if it's only to

> get you and me to accept unconditionally their chosen lifestyle.

In that case, their agenda is no different than ours, is it? Every

human wants to be accepted for who they are, without exception. Every

parent on this list has an agenda that requires that the world at large

accept their children as they are, without exception. And to say that

homosexuality is a " chosen lifestyle " is patently ridiculous if you look

past the dogma in the statement. First, who in their right mind would

choose to be in a segment of society that guarantees they will be

ridiculed, denied work, and which will in some areas of our country put

their lives in danger? The research shows that all children

self-identify with a gender identity between the ages of 2 and 3. Every

gay person I've ever known, and I've known lots, has told me they knew

they were gay very very early. Are you telling me a 3 year old chooses

to be gay? I don't think so.

> one has to do is meander through some of the public school biology,

> health science and language books to see this message woven

> throughout it pages. Have you even looked? Or are you speaking from

> a position of no experience?

I am, at this writing, 55 years old. I have looked at textbooks, in

that I took training as a teacher a few years back. I fail to find the

" message " of which you speak, unless it is one of tolerance for the

differences of others.

> >>And if their home teaching is good and strong, then this shouldn't

> bother them at all. If not, one must look to the quality of the home

> teaching, not the public schools.<<

>

> Children are very impressionable. My children have a very firm

> foundation in their faith, but they still have to wonder when the

> teachers tell them that things we have taught them are incorrect.

Which things. Please be specific.

> Children are, after all, human too. This is very confusing,

> especially to young children when they have to pit themselves

> against authority figures in their lives when their parents have

> taught them otherwise.

And especially when those children are gay. Can they tell their

Christian parents who have already condemned gays as sinners? Is it any

wonder that the suicide rate among gay teens is higher than that among

hetero teens?

> >>And homosexuality is a viable way to

> live.<<

>

> Viable? I disagree. It's definitely a way to die though.......

You are focussing on the sexual aspect of gayness. Let me hasten to

tell you that noncommitted heterosexuals are vulnurable to the same

diseases. Homosexuality is a viable way to live.

>

> >>Homosexual behavior is not sinful.<<

>

> Please read Romans 1:18-32 and explain to me how you reached this

> very dangerous conclusion.

What you are quoting here is . had trouble with heterosexual

disciples marrying. , when he was Saul, presided over the stoning

of Christians. , in my opinion, provided a good physical structure

for the early church, but he perverted the Christ's word. Show me

anywhere that the Christ spoke to homosexuality at all. You can't.

There isn't one.

>

> >>And no

> where in the Bible is there a similar instruction (or any mention at

> all) of lesbians.<<

>

> You just have not read Romans at all, have you?

I should have said " no where in the words of the Christ. " And, FYI, I

have read the Bible through many, many times. Your comment was meant to

be cutting, and it was made without any knowledge of my familiarity with

the Bible.

> >>I've been on more than one diversity committee in my life. It is

> the

> study of all peoples, especially in one's community, in the belief

> that

> once one understands one's neighbors, it is very hard to be

> prejudiced

> against them. I think this is a good thing.<<

>

> Nowhere does God ask us to be accepting of diversity.

The Christ, in 22: 37-39, says that we should love God and love

our neighbors as ourselves. It doesn't say our heterosexual neighbors,

or our non-sinful neighbors, or our white neighbors, it says our

neighbors. This, to me, is the Christ's imprimature on diversity.

> love Him, you will follow Him. I'm not interested in accepting

> other's ways of life, especially when their lives are spelled out in

> black and white as sinful. I don't care about pleasing man. I only

> care about pleasing God.

And you're pleasing God by judging your neighbors and not loving them?

" Judge not that ye be not judged, " said the Christ in 7: 1-2.

I'm not talking about pleasing man. I'm talking about loving your

neighbor, about tolerance.

> >>There are gays in the world, God made them gay, and we shouldn't

> hate

> them or downgrade them or look on them as (Lord help us) " sinners "

> because of that.<<

>

> To state that God " made them gay " borders on blasphemous.

Since homosexuality is genetically based, then who did make them gay?

Are you positing another Creator, just for gay people? And evil

Creator? And the statement is not blasphemous. It is praise for God

making us all different, all unique. If you find fault with the

creation, then with whom are you really finding fault?

> He would not call homosexuality

> and " abomination " (see Romans) and then create people to be

> homosexual.

You are confusing God and here.

> People are " sinners " . You seem to just really not like

> that label. If you cannot see that people are sinners, however, I

> have to really question how " devout " a Christian you are.

I have never said that people were not sinful. However, the idea is to

repent your sin and be born anew. I am a devout Christian. How dare

you question my faith.

> Acknowledgement of the fact that we are all sinners is the first

> step to salvation. No, God does not ask us to hate or downgrade

> anyone, but he does say to " love the sinner and hate the sin " .

But homosexuality is not a sin. Sin is volitional. Homosexuality is

inborn. You are taking the judgement chair away from God. That's a

very dangerous thing to do. See 7: 3-5.

>

> >>Lifestyle, BTW, implies

> choice. Gays don't chose to be gay any more that heterosexuals choose

> to be heterosexuals. Any other view ignores a vast body of research

> proving that homosexuals are born that way.<<

>

> I already addressed this. Homosexuality caused by genetics is faulty

> logic at best.

Has nothing to do with logic, faulty or otherwise. It has a great deal

to do with the scientific method of proofs through study of individuals

and/or groups.

>

> You can go ahead and be mad at me and call me narrow minded or

> predjudiced or whatever, but I had to respond. You simply cannot

> call yourself a Christian and embrace what He so specifically refers

> to as " sin " , and then broadcast it to an Internet list where others

> are being witness and expect the brothers and sisters in Christ to

> sit silently.

Again, how dare you question my faith? I am a Christian. And I defy

you to show me one place where the Christ (not , nor any other man)

condemns homosexuality. Just one. And you won't be able to, because

such a reference does not exist.

To live as a Christian means you have to answer to a

> higher calling in spite of what the world tells you.

Do not attempt to instruct me in the religion that I have been following

since my baptism at 9.

> We are not here

> to live comfortably and make nice-nice with everyone.

Actually, if you read the New Testament, we *are* here to live

comfortably if it's God's will (not man's) and to make nice-nice with

everyone. Again, 7:1-2.

God is mighty

> and He is very clear about what's right and what's wrong.

Indeed. Which is why He gave the Christ the power to forgive the sin of

the planet. However, since God did not speak against homosexuality per

se but only against a military practice at the time (Old Testament),

then it's impossible to say that gays, who are genetically as God made

them, are sinners just because they're gay. Maybe for other reasons;

not all gays are nice, law-abiding people just like not all

heterosexuals are nice, law-abiding. But not because they are behaving

as he formed them to behave.

> are many homosexual people out there who are very nice people. Their

> lifestyle (choice) is wrong though and when we embrace it with them,

> we will be judged by even sterner standards for allowing them to

> live in sin and not attempting to witness to them. What will you say

> when you meet up with your friend Louie one day and he thanks you

> for being his friend............. and then asks why you didn't tell

> him?

Um, Louie is my son. Learn to read text more clearly. And I wonder

what you will say when you meet up with the Christ one day, and He asks

you why you questioned one of His Father's creations? Do you presume to

know the Mind of God so well and thoroughly? One is not damned for

loving one's neighbor. One is not damned for kindness and acceptance of

any of God's creations. Why are you so afraid of gays and how they

live? Why are you so upset about those with differences, inborn ones at

that? And why does your thinking keep veering to the sexual component

of homosexuality when it's about the same size factor as the sexual

component in heterosexuality?

Please don't set yourself up as a judge with only limited human

understanding. God understands all, and He does many thing that we see

no reason for. Doesn't mean there is no reason, just means that it is

beyond our human understanding. It amazes me that people will go so far

out of their way to religiously condemn a group of people that want only

what all human beings want: to be loved, to be allowed work and a place

to live, to be allowed to swear a lifetime commitment to the one they

love, and to be left alone by those who may not understand them.

> In Christ,

> na

Love God. And love your neighbor as you love yourself. And do unto others

as you would have them do unto you.

This is all I'm saying on this subject publicly. It has nothing to do with

autism (other than some obvious parallels that may be drawn), and so it

has no place in this forum.

Regards,

Annie, who loves ya annie@...

--

" Be the change you wish to see in the world. " -- Anon