Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

[Guest guest]

I have a modest amount of qualification in coaching olympic

weightlifters and athletes who perform cleans, so I'm going to join in.

First, as pointed our by - this is not a hang clean. It is a

hang power clean. From the perspective of an athlete developing

explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension and plantar

flexion it is a good exercise choice. IMO more appropriate than power

cleans from the floor.

Perfect technique from an olympic lifting perspective is not required

to achieve the training effect the athlete desires. That is primarily

the development of explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension

and plantar flexion. From an olympic weightlifters perspective there

are some noticeable flaws in technique that all four athletes share.

Obviously the modern technique of olympic lifting does not emphasize

plantar flexion at all, but many trainers feel (myself included) that

athletes should use the older technique and emphasize plantar flexion

as this is final movement in the kinetic chain that includes jumps and

the sprint start.

Most noticeable technique flaw - the shoulders move behind the bar far

too quickly and the bar is too far away from the body during the final

pull. The athletes fail to achieve full extension (which is something

they should prioritize in terms of attention) and end up performing

what looks more like a jumping reverse curl than a clean in terms of

bar path.

To me, for an athlete training this movement, the failure to reach a

full extension is critical flaw that should be addressed.

For an olympic style weightlifter I don't believe the power clean is a

great choice in exercise selection. The athlete should instead focus

on getting the bar to the height required for the clean and getting

under the bar.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

>

> I also feel that he does not know proper

> > technique for many of the lifts that he denounces.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are the inadequacies of

> the technique shown in the video and how would your rectify them?

>

> Thanks

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I have a modest amount of qualification in coaching olympic

> weightlifters and athletes who perform cleans, so I'm going to join

in.

>

> First, as pointed our by - this is not a hang clean. It is a

> hang power clean. From the perspective of an athlete developing

> explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension and plantar

> flexion it is a good exercise choice. IMO more appropriate than

power

> cleans from the floor.

***

Thanks for the clarification as soon as I submitted the post, I

noticed my error! Apologies, especially to Harvey Newton!

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

I agree with this assessment. However, I'd like to add that the " stomp " is

a beginner's technique that should diminish as technical proficiency

increases.

Lee

Cypress, CA, USA

> I have a modest amount of qualification in coaching olympic

> weightlifters and athletes who perform cleans, so I'm going to join in.

>

> First, as pointed our by - this is not a hang clean. It is a

> hang power clean. From the perspective of an athlete developing

> explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension and plantar

> flexion it is a good exercise choice. IMO more appropriate than power

> cleans from the floor.

>

> Perfect technique from an olympic lifting perspective is not required

> to achieve the training effect the athlete desires. That is primarily

> the development of explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension

> and plantar flexion. From an olympic weightlifters perspective there

> are some noticeable flaws in technique that all four athletes share.

> Obviously the modern technique of olympic lifting does not emphasize

> plantar flexion at all, but many trainers feel (myself included) that

> athletes should use the older technique and emphasize plantar flexion

> as this is final movement in the kinetic chain that includes jumps and

> the sprint start.

>

> Most noticeable technique flaw - the shoulders move behind the bar far

> too quickly and the bar is too far away from the body during the final

> pull. The athletes fail to achieve full extension (which is something

> they should prioritize in terms of attention) and end up performing

> what looks more like a jumping reverse curl than a clean in terms of

> bar path.

>

> To me, for an athlete training this movement, the failure to reach a

> full extension is critical flaw that should be addressed.

>

> For an olympic style weightlifter I don't believe the power clean is a

> great choice in exercise selection. The athlete should instead focus

> on getting the bar to the height required for the clean and getting

> under the bar.

>

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I also feel that he does not know proper

> > > technique for many of the lifts that he denounces.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are the inadequacies of

> > the technique shown in the video and how would your rectify them?

> >

> > Thanks

> > Carruthers

> > Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

,

Why would you consider a hang power clean more appropriate than power cleans

from the floor? True also for a high school inside linebacker?

Regards,

Skip Dallen

Covina, CA USA

================================

Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

I agree with this assessment. However, I'd like to add that the " stomp " is

a beginner's technique that should diminish as technical proficiency

increases.

Lee

Cypress, CA, USA

> I have a modest amount of qualification in coaching olympic

> weightlifters and athletes who perform cleans, so I'm going to join in.

>

> First, as pointed our by - this is not a hang clean. It is a

> hang power clean. From the perspective of an athlete developing

> explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension and plantar

> flexion it is a good exercise choice. IMO more appropriate than power

> cleans from the floor.

>

> Perfect technique from an olympic lifting perspective is not required

> to achieve the training effect the athlete desires. That is primarily

> the development of explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension

> and plantar flexion. From an olympic weightlifters perspective there

> are some noticeable flaws in technique that all four athletes share.

> Obviously the modern technique of olympic lifting does not emphasize

> plantar flexion at all, but many trainers feel (myself included) that

> athletes should use the older technique and emphasize plantar flexion

> as this is final movement in the kinetic chain that includes jumps and

> the sprint start.

>

> Most noticeable technique flaw - the shoulders move behind the bar far

> too quickly and the bar is too far away from the body during the final

> pull. The athletes fail to achieve full extension (which is something

> they should prioritize in terms of attention) and end up performing

> what looks more like a jumping reverse curl than a clean in terms of

> bar path.

>

> To me, for an athlete training this movement, the failure to reach a

> full extension is critical flaw that should be addressed.

>

> For an olympic style weightlifter I don't believe the power clean is a

> great choice in exercise selection. The athlete should instead focus

> on getting the bar to the height required for the clean and getting

> under the bar.

>

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I also feel that he does not know proper

> > > technique for many of the lifts that he denounces.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are the inadequacies of

> > the technique shown in the video and how would your rectify them?

> >

> > Thanks

> > Carruthers

> > Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

One thing I was thinking - what would Supertrainers consider good

exercises for a high school inside linebacker?

Naturally assuming there is no glaring weak area that has to be

addressed.

Myself - I would focus training on these key aspects

Strength - primarily speed/strength or power (core strength is pretty

much inherent in my exercise selection)

Speed - both sprint speed and agility training

Endurance - moderate work capacity required with some hypertrophy

built into exercise selection

For strength my core exercise would be:

Power clean or snatch (or high-pull) from the hang

Front squat or overhead squat

Standing press or push press

Pull-up

For speed I'd do a variety of interval work in sprints from 800m to

30m. If I had access to a decent hill I would certainly include

training on that. I'd also add in a variety of agility drills based on

hops, jumps, back-pedalling, turning, etc.

Endurance would include the above intervals, also bodyweight, db

(kettlebell if preferred) and gymnastics type moves including tumbles

and falls, burpees, snatches, swings, rollouts or walkouts on the

hands, etc. A great deal of core and unilateral work would go into

this area.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

> SImply for the focus on 'the explosion' of final pull.

>

> From the floor you have to get the bar into the proper position for

> the explosion. From the hang you don't have to worry about that as

> much. I'm a great believer in the 'KISS' principle - keep things

> simple. I'm also a believer that the important thing in training is

> focusing on the right 'thing'. So from the hang it is just easier to

> focus on 'jumping up' with the bar.

>

> Having said that - from the floor is a fine exercise if you can get

> them focusing on the final part as well. A lot would depend on the

> structure of the training area.

>

> I also like dumbbell snatches for training the hip/knee extension and

> plantar flexion sequence. Well - probably a better term would be

> dumbbell power snatches from the hang.

>

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

>

>

>

>> ,

>>

>> Why would you consider a hang power clean more appropriate than

>> power cleans from the floor? True also for a high school inside

>> linebacker?

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>> Skip Dallen

>> Covina, CA USA

>>

>> ================================

>> Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

>>

>> I agree with this assessment. However, I'd like to add that the

>> " stomp " is

>> a beginner's technique that should diminish as technical proficiency

>> increases.

>>

>> Lee

>> Cypress, CA, USA

>>

>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Hobman

>> wrote:

>>

>>> I have a modest amount of qualification in coaching olympic

>>> weightlifters and athletes who perform cleans, so I'm going to

>> join in.

>>>

>>> First, as pointed our by - this is not a hang clean. It is a

>>> hang power clean. From the perspective of an athlete developing

>>> explosive strength in hip extension, knee extension and plantar

>>> flexion it is a good exercise choice. IMO more appropriate than

>> power

>>> cleans from the floor.

>>>

>>> Perfect technique from an olympic lifting perspective is not

>> required

>>> to achieve the training effect the athlete desires. That is

>> primarily

>>> the development of explosive strength in hip extension, knee

>> extension

>>> and plantar flexion. From an olympic weightlifters perspective there

>>> are some noticeable flaws in technique that all four athletes share.

>>> Obviously the modern technique of olympic lifting does not emphasize

>>> plantar flexion at all, but many trainers feel (myself included)

>> that

>>> athletes should use the older technique and emphasize plantar

>> flexion

>>> as this is final movement in the kinetic chain that includes jumps

>> and

>>> the sprint start.

>>>

>>> Most noticeable technique flaw - the shoulders move behind the bar

>> far

>>> too quickly and the bar is too far away from the body during the

>> final

>>> pull. The athletes fail to achieve full extension (which is

>> something

>>> they should prioritize in terms of attention) and end up performing

>>> what looks more like a jumping reverse curl than a clean in terms of

>>> bar path.

>>>

>>> To me, for an athlete training this movement, the failure to reach a

>>> full extension is critical flaw that should be addressed.

>>>

>>> For an olympic style weightlifter I don't believe the power clean

>> is a

>>> great choice in exercise selection. The athlete should instead focus

>>> on getting the bar to the height required for the clean and getting

>>> under the bar.

>>>

>>> Hobman

>>> Saskatoon, Canada

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>> I also feel that he does not know proper

>>>>> technique for many of the lifts that he denounces.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are the

>> inadequacies of

>>>> the technique shown in the video and how would your rectify them?

>>>>

>>>> Thanks

>>>> Carruthers

>>>> Wakefield, UK

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Why is the " athletic position " not more important. In most sports you don't have

time to generate power of a long chain of movement (clean from a floor) often

the power needs to be generated rapidly from the current " ready position " . So

wouldn't it suppose to train to generate power from that position?

Garrison, CSCS

Mesa, AZ

=========================

To: Supertraining@...: dan_partelly@...: Wed, 11 Feb

2009 17:43:05 +0000Subject: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

I feel pulling from the floor has advantages. If you argue onspecificity, and

you are concerned about the " athletic position " , you shouldnt be IMO. The bar

will eventually reach the point fromwhere a " hang lift " starts, and from there

the movement is identical (or should be, in a proficient enough lifter) Starting

from the floor has the advantage of strengthening the wholepulling mechanism.

You get a superior movement this way. And then again, with the exception of

weightlifting, all the Olympiclifts are not likely to constitute SPP means.

Realization of power in the " athletic movement " will require a intenseprocess of

transmutation and realization, to be able to express the ahigh % of the gained

power in cleaning in the technical movement. The more athletic position " from

the hang is basically not really thatimportant. Dan PartellyOradea, Romania---

In Supertraining , phillip g wrote:Furthermore one

could argue that for most sports, Olympic lifts donefrom the hang position has

more specificity since most sports requirethe athlete to develop power from an

" athletic position " much like thehang clean rather than generating power from

the floor.> > Garrison, CSCS> Mesa, AZ> > To: Supertraining@...:

delee1000@...: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:29:36-0800Subject: Re: Hang

Power Clean Technique?> > > > I agree with this assessment. However, I'd like to

add that the " stomp " isa beginner's technique that should diminish as

technicalproficiencyincreases. LeeCypress, CA, USAOn Mon, Feb 9, 2009

at9:11 AM, Hobman wrote:> I have a modest amount

ofqualification in coaching olympic> weightlifters and athletes whoperform

cleans, so I'm going to join in.>> First, as pointed our by - this is not a

hang clean. It is a> hang power clean. From theperspective of an athlete

developing> explosive strength in hipextension, knee extension and plantar>

flexion it is a good exercisechoice. IMO more appropriate than power> cleans

from the floor.>>Perfect technique from an olympic lifting perspective is not

required>to achieve the training effect the athlete desires. That is

primarily>the development of explosive strength in hip extension, kneeextension>

and plantar flexion. From an olympic weightliftersperspective there> are some

noticeable flaws in technique that allfour athletes share.> Obviously the modern

technique of olympiclifting does not emphasize> plantar flexion at all, but many

trainersfeel (myself included) that> athletes should use the older techniqueand

emphasize plantar flexion> as this is final movement in thekinetic chain that

includes jumps and> the sprint start.>> Mostnoticeable technique flaw - the

shoulders move behind the bar far> tooquickly and the bar is too far away from

the body during the final>pull. The athletes fail to achieve full extension

(which is something>they should prioritize in terms of attention) and end up

performing>what looks more like a jumping reverse curl than a clean in terms

of>bar path.>> To me, for an athlete training this movement, the failureto reach

a> full extension is critical flaw that should beaddressed.>> For an olympic

style weightlifter I don't believe thepower clean is a> great choice in exercise

selection. The athleteshould instead focus> on getting the bar to the height

required forthe clean and getting> under the bar.>> Hobman>

Saskatoon,Canada>>>> >> > ---

InSupertraining , Lee <delee1000@>> > wrote:> > Ialso feel

that he does not know proper> > > technique for many of thelifts that he

denounces.> > >> >

>

> >>>> >

Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are theinadequacies of> > the

technique shown in the video and how would yourrectify them?> >> > Thanks> >

Carruthers> > Wakefield, UK> > > > > ======================>

[Guest guest]

Not really. Its again the same issue I tried to point in many on my

previous posts:

- expression of power in a technical movement is not realized in the

gym. (again, with obvious exceptions such as conjugate method or

sports like weightlifting and powerlifting). The fact that you are

able to express power in the technical movement of a power clean, does

not guarantee that you realized this potential in the sport movement.

- the " ready position " in a clean is a far cry from any other " ready

position " in any other sports. (with the obvious exception of WL)

hence the transfer to the sports 'ready potion' and the ability to

transfer the potential gains from starting in a " ready position " and

realize them in a concrete advantage is low. In most cases, using OL

and their immediate derivatives will *not* constitute SPP.

Hence, it is better IMO to use the full movement.

You say, and I quote

=============================================================

" generate power of a long chain of movement (clean from a floor) "

" suppose to train to generate power from that position "

==========================================================

In no sport whatsoever you sit in a heavy load in hang position

(except WL). So even if you train this way (hang clean), this is not

" that position " (whatever ready position in the sport). So it wont

make any gain. Unless of course your athletic probe is how lifts more

in 'clean from hang above knees'

- rate of force development in the 'explosion' is not necessarily

impaired in a full lift. With the obvious exception of a defective

pull, which leaves you in a bad position. (here in many clubs we teach

the 2 pulls first)

- the art of special strength training lies in transfer of training.

It pays to know what exercises can constitute special strength

training means, and when to choose them (for example, partial squats

are more specific to on-field jumping for example, but it is wiser IMO

that for the development of athlete up to high levels to use full

squats, then of course you can switch if you feel so)

Just my 2 cents on why the full movement is IMO superior.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> > Ialso feel that he does not know proper> > > technique for

many of thelifts that he denounces.> > >> >

>

>

>>>> > Thanks for citing the above. What do you feel are

theinadequacies of> > the technique shown in the video and how would

yourrectify them?> >> > Thanks> > Carruthers> > Wakefield, UK> >

> > > ======================>

>

[Guest guest]

I like the front squat because it forces the athlete into the proper

position and reinforces how the pelvis should be when you are shedding

a block. It is good technique reinforcement for a linebacker. I feel

the clean itself is all that is necessary for posterior chain

development. I really don't like the back squat that much - might just

be my prejudice as a former powerlifter. I've seen too many

'bastardized good mornings' passed off as a squat. I'll have to re-

think my position.

The OH squat is done primarily for the core.

Jumping exercise are done in the intervals - I do a lot of unilateral

hops. But you make a good point about the plyos and also about

explosive strength. I'd have to add those in.

I'd start with a few 800m runs and 40m sprints and then over the

training period reduce the long runs and do more and more sprints. I

do like hill sprints for young athletes, as well.

Thanks for the input, Dan.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

>

> 1. front squat is quad dominant. Maybe add something for hamstrings

> then if you do only front squats ? Back squats are a more equilibrated

> version. Do not neglect calves.

>

> 2. Overhead squat is not a good exercise for max-strength. In fact

> it's only specific to weightlifting and has little carryover anywhere

> elsewhere. You will reap some " core strength " and stability benefits

> from it, but that's just about it.

>

> 3. Consider adding jumping exercises off-season (in various

> incarnations, with or whiteout overload), and other forms of explosive

> drills (plyo). Not done with the intent to create agility,

> but with the intent to create more explosive / reactive force in legs.

>

> None of the exercise you mentioned has a great impact on explosive

> strength in legs. Not even the OL variations you want to use.

>

> Then, consider doing off-season a complete strength program, using a

> a great variety of exercises. High school athletes are still young and

> in many cases they can benefit tremendously from a more diverse

> strength program. As I said in a previous sports, I feel that training

> young athletes with just several lifts is a mistake.

>

> 4. technically, you cant sprint 800m.

>

> Dan Partelly

> Oradea, Romania

>

>

> >

> > One thing I was thinking - what would Supertrainers consider good

> > exercises for a high school inside linebacker?

> >

> > Naturally assuming there is no glaring weak area that has to be

> > addressed.

> >

> > Myself - I would focus training on these key aspects

> >

> > Strength - primarily speed/strength or power (core strength is

> pretty

> > much inherent in my exercise selection)

> > Speed - both sprint speed and agility training

> > Endurance - moderate work capacity required with some hypertrophy

> > built into exercise selection

> >

> > For strength my core exercise would be:

> >

> > Power clean or snatch (or high-pull) from the hang

> > Front squat or overhead squat

> > Standing press or push press

> > Pull-up

> >

> >

> > For speed I'd do a variety of interval work in sprints from 800m to

> > 30m. If I had access to a decent hill I would certainly include

> > training on that. I'd also add in a variety of agility drills

> based on

> > hops, jumps, back-pedalling, turning, etc.

> >

> > Endurance would include the above intervals, also bodyweight, db

> > (kettlebell if preferred) and gymnastics type moves including

> tumbles

> > and falls, burpees, snatches, swings, rollouts or walkouts on the

> > hands, etc. A great deal of core and unilateral work would go into

> > this area.

> >

> >

> > Hobman

> > Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

>> I feel

>>the clean itself is all that is necessary for posterior chain

>> development.

Yes, if you do cleans .... but you said you want to do

QUOTE:

--------------------------------------------------

Power clean or snatch (or high-pull) from the hang

---------------------------------------------------

Here I assume you used the term " hang " the same way its used by most

westerners, i.e hang above the knee. I dont feel that such a

incomplete lift can develop the posterior chain enough.

Lifting from the floor, or at worst from hag below the knee is

required for back chain development.

Or did I missed something ?

Thanks for your input,

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

Yes,

> > >

> > > One thing I was thinking - what would Supertrainers consider good

> > > exercises for a high school inside linebacker?

> > >

> > > Naturally assuming there is no glaring weak area that has to be

> > > addressed.

> > >

> > > Myself - I would focus training on these key aspects

> > >

> > > Strength - primarily speed/strength or power (core strength is

> > pretty

> > > much inherent in my exercise selection)

> > > Speed - both sprint speed and agility training

> > > Endurance - moderate work capacity required with some hypertrophy

> > > built into exercise selection

> > >

> > > For strength my core exercise would be:

> > >

> > > Power clean or snatch (or high-pull) from the hang

> > > Front squat or overhead squat

> > > Standing press or push press

> > > Pull-up

> > >

> > >

> > > For speed I'd do a variety of interval work in sprints from 800m to

> > > 30m. If I had access to a decent hill I would certainly include

> > > training on that. I'd also add in a variety of agility drills

> > based on

> > > hops, jumps, back-pedalling, turning, etc.

> > >

> > > Endurance would include the above intervals, also bodyweight, db

> > > (kettlebell if preferred) and gymnastics type moves including

> > tumbles

> > > and falls, burpees, snatches, swings, rollouts or walkouts on the

> > > hands, etc. A great deal of core and unilateral work would go into

> > > this area.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hobman

> > > Saskatoon, Canada

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The best lift for what? Strength, hamstring development? Low back development?

Please specify what you believe it's best for

Garrison, CSCS

Mesa, Arizona

=============================

To: Supertraining@...: deadliftdiva@...: Thu, 12 Feb

2009 20:37:56 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift. Conventional.

Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more prone to injury than a

proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that needs to be overcome! The more

RDL's I see performed with dreadful form and too much weight, the more I'm

convinced that move should be outlawed! Either straight leg deadlift or full

deadlift, and I'd say full DL is better overall anyway. Seize the bar with chalk

and success. the Phantom aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA Re:

Re: Hang Power Clean Technique? If you are unwilling to add the back squat or

full cleans, I would suggest you consider adding the Romanian deadlift.

Lee Cypress, CA, USA =================================

[Guest guest]

,

You would say:

" Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift.

Conventional. Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more

prone to injury than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that

needs to be overcome! The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful

form and too much weight, the more I'm convinced that move should be

outlawed! Either straight leg deadlift or full deadlift, and I'd say

full DL is better overall anyway. "

You have repeatedly shown yourself to be both profoundly biased, prone

to " Shooting from the lip. " and capable of major sophistry.

Let's deconstruct this comment.

" the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift. Conventional. "

Once again your bias is showing along with your refusal to accept

empirical data. We've had this discussion before, RDL's are far better

for sports training than Powerlifting deadlifts. The RDL is the

beginning of both the Olympic lifts and virtually all Olympic barbell

training done from the floor. Since Powerlifting deadlifts are

contraindicated according to all the research on resistance training

for sports (reminding you of this is becoming tedious)and Olympic

Weightlifting has been statistically proven to be one of the safest of

all sports, why would any sane strength coach substitute any other

technique for the RDL, abandoning both the specificity of training

principle and the requirement to train the athlete as safely as possible?

" The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful form and too much weight... "

Any exercise done improperly is obviously more likely to increase the

potential for injury. Thank you Captain Obvious. This holds true to an

even greater extent with the use of too much weight. The combination

of both exponentially increases the injury potential for the exercise

REGARDLESS of technique used.

" ...the more I'm convinced that move should be outlawed! "

This comment is so foolish I can't believe you had the temerity to

actually write it! Once again I'll refer you to the numerous safety

studies done on Olympic Weightlifting proving it to be one of the

safest sports and the sophistry of your qualifiers, " dreadful form "

and " too much weight " .

" Either straight leg deadlift or full deadlift, and I'd say full DL is

better overall anyway. "

First, define your terms. What is a " straight leg deadlift " ? A " full

deadlift " ? And once again you express opinion with no basis in

research to support it, " I'd say full DL is better overall anyway. "

This statement is based on what research or empirical evidence?

What is a " ...full DL " ? and why is it " ...better overall anyway. " ?

Better for what? Already proven to transfer poorly to sports

activities, Powerlifting is a sport unto itself with a misnomer for a

name and little or no application to proper sports training. Yet you

obdurately insist on arguing otherwise in spite of repeatedly being

slapped down by the overwhelming emperical data proving you wrong!

Why do you persist?

I say it is your mindset that needs to be overcome.

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.

- G. McAdoo

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

>

>

> Typical!  the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift. 

Conventional.  Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more

prone to injury than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that

needs to be overcome!  The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful

form and too much weight, the more I'm convinced that move should be

outlawed!  Either straight leg deadlift or full deadlift, and I'd say

full DL is better overall anyway.

>

> Seize the bar with chalk and success.

> the Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

> Re: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

>

>

> If you are unwilling to add the back squat or full cleans, I would

suggest

> you consider adding the Romanian deadlift.

>

> Lee

> Cypress, CA, USA

> =================================

>

[Guest guest]

I would be happy to continue a dialogue with you , but you seem unable

to control yourself. A weak person.

The mockery you made of my name is uncalled for, and it proved me that

you are unworthy of dialogue.

I wonder how such message mocking my name got through the moderators

of this list.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

> Telle -- I just did -- can you spell DarTellapartelianism

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI Bill,

> I have to disagree with both of you regarding involvement of the traps

> during certain phases of the lift and in training

> .There may be some mild loading of the traps during the initial pull

> phase but the traps, like the arms should actually be relaxed so as

> not to impede the speed of movement. During the shrug phase the traps

> are then dynamically involved

Telle -- My beliefs are derived from the probable fact that the traps

cannot be truly relaxed during any phase of the pull or they would

tear and/or the dynamics/geometrics of the lift would be different.

Instead I believe them to contract isometrically (which will result in

some? eccentric lengthening as the tendons stretch). I'm guessing EMG

would therefore be low compared to the following concentric contraction.

> High pulls are inherently done with conscious and deliberate

> contraction of the traps as part of a complete training routine.

Telle -- yes -- yet they are still held isometrically until

dynamically contracted as hip extension completes?? You could?

concentrically contract the traps initially which is an interesting

idea.

>

> A wise man is not governed by others, nor does he try to govern them;

> he prefers that reason alone prevail.

Telle --truly

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

For me Romanian dead lifts are a great warm up exercise for regular dead

lifts. I have never gone over 225 with Romanian dead lifts and I like to reps

of Romanian dead lifts at 135 lbs. Here would be a typical max dead lift day

for me:

warm up: Romanian dead lift 135x5, 135x5, 135x5

warm up: leg extensions 1 set of 25 reps

Heavy regular deadlifting 5 sets of maxes so 5 reps total.

Heavy Leg extensions 2 sets of 8-10 reps per set

One leg dead lifts 1 set of 10 reps per leg as a cool down; finishing

exercise

Dumbbell dead lifts as a cool down; finishing exercise. 1 set of 10 reps.

And that would be all I do on a max dead lift day. This dead lift workout

is done once per week and is the second leg day of the week. The first leg

day of the week is the squat day:

warm up: 1x10 bodyweight squats

warm up: 1x10 light barbell squats

Heavy Barbell squats 3 sets of 3 reps per set (non max day); 3 - 5 sets of 1

rep each (max day) and 1x5 Moderately Heavy Barbell squats (max day)

That routine works for me during my heavy leg training months of the year -

which tend to fall in the summer because I have more free time during the

summer. I'm a teacher and don't always have work during the summer. I do a

3/2

leg workout schedule:

Monday - Squat day

Thursday - Dead lift day

This means 3 days rest between the first leg day and the second leg day. 2

days rest between the second leg day and the first leg day again. I don't do

any leg presses as I feel they don't improve my squatting or dead lifting

strength at all. I know guys that leg press 1000 or more pounds but can't even

dead lift 315 lbs.

In my heavy training cycle my upper body days would be Sundays and

Wednesdays:

Sunday

Flat bench press (wide and close) or leverage machine bench press

Lat Pulldowns

Pullups

Rear laterals - rear shoulder flyes

Ab work

Thursday

Dips, Seated behind neck press, or Cable bench press

Seated Rows

Pullups

Ab work

I may do some extra triceps and biceps work on Sunday or Monday but I find

that when I am lifting really heavy my biceps and triceps can get over trained

thus limiting my recovery for other workouts.

Sometimes I do reverse hyperextensions and when I want to add resistance I

use flex bands - no the cheap bands mind you. These bands are designed for

heavy lifting.

Sometimes I dead lift with an overhand grip; sometimes with regular dead

lift grip. I like the idea of weight releasers and chains.

I do an exercise which I call bottom bench press. I set the barbell on the

rack supports at my own lowest bench press position. I slide under the bar

and the bar is barely touching my chest on the supports. I then push up to a

lockout. It's a full rep from down to up. I'm weak on the bottom portion of

my bench press and this has worked wonders for the bottom portion of my

bench press. Also leverage bench pressing about once a month has worked

wonders

for my bottom bench press as well because I have to start in the bottom

position.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 2/13/2009 9:58:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

deadliftdiva@... writes:

Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift.

Conventional. Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more prone to

injury

than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that needs to be overcome!

The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful form and too much weight, the more

I'm convinced that move should be outlawed! Either straight leg deadlift or

full deadlift, and I'd say full DL is better overall anyway.

Seize the bar with chalk and success.

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

===============================

[Guest guest]

I do not believe that the RDL is more prone to injury than a DL. The RDL

can be very helpful in developing hamstring flexibility. Also, I merely

suggested the RDL because the front squat and overhead squat are so anterior

chain dominant, although they have significant contributions from the glutes

as well. In my opinion, the DL would not be as optimal to balance out these

imbalances in the poster's program. With that being said, the DL would be

fine as well.

Lee

Cypress, CA, USA

>

> Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift.

> Conventional. Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more prone

> to injury than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that needs to be

> overcome! The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful form and too much

> weight, the more I'm convinced that move should be outlawed! Either

> straight leg deadlift or full deadlift, and I'd say full DL is better

> overall anyway.

>

> Seize the bar with chalk and success.

> the Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> Re: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

>

> If you are unwilling to add the back squat or full cleans, I would suggest

> you consider adding the Romanian deadlift.

>

> Lee

> Cypress, CA, USA

> =================================

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I should also mention that I like an exercise that Eddie White showed me.

Hanging Band Bench Press.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 2/13/2009 5:59:35 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, EFreem3407

writes:

For me Romanian dead lifts are a great warm up exercise for regular dead

lifts. I have never gone over 225 with Romanian dead lifts and I like to reps

of Romanian dead lifts at 135 lbs. Here would be a typical max dead lift day

for me:

warm up: Romanian dead lift 135x5, 135x5, 135x5

warm up: leg extensions 1 set of 25 reps

Heavy regular deadlifting 5 sets of maxes so 5 reps total.

Heavy Leg extensions 2 sets of 8-10 reps per set

One leg dead lifts 1 set of 10 reps per leg as a cool down; finishing

exercise

Dumbbell dead lifts as a cool down; finishing exercise. 1 set of 10 reps.

And that would be all I do on a max dead lift day. This dead lift workout

is done once per week and is the second leg day of the week. The first leg

day of the week is the squat day:

warm up: 1x10 bodyweight squats

warm up: 1x10 light barbell squats

Heavy Barbell squats 3 sets of 3 reps per set (non max day); 3 - 5 sets of 1

rep each (max day) and 1x5 Moderately Heavy Barbell squats (max day)

That routine works for me during my heavy leg training months of the year -

which tend to fall in the summer because I have more free time during the

summer. I'm a teacher and don't always have work during the summer. I do a

3/2

leg workout schedule:

Monday - Squat day

Thursday - Dead lift day

This means 3 days rest between the first leg day and the second leg day. 2

days rest between the second leg day and the first leg day again. I don't do

any leg presses as I feel they don't improve my squatting or dead lifting

strength at all. I know guys that leg press 1000 or more pounds but can't even

dead lift 315 lbs.

In my heavy training cycle my upper body days would be Sundays and

Wednesdays:

Sunday

Flat bench press (wide and close) or leverage machine bench press

Lat Pulldowns

Pullups

Rear laterals - rear shoulder flyes

Ab work

Thursday

Dips, Seated behind neck press, or Cable bench press

Seated Rows

Pullups

Ab work

I may do some extra triceps and biceps work on Sunday or Monday but I find

that when I am lifting really heavy my biceps and triceps can get over trained

thus limiting my recovery for other workouts.

Sometimes I do reverse hyperextensions and when I want to add resistance I

use flex bands - no the cheap bands mind you. These bands are designed for

heavy lifting.

Sometimes I dead lift with an overhand grip; sometimes with regular dead

lift grip. I like the idea of weight releasers and chains.

I do an exercise which I call bottom bench press. I set the barbell on the

rack supports at my own lowest bench press position. I slide under the bar

and the bar is barely touching my chest on the supports. I then push up to a

lockout. It's a full rep from down to up. I'm weak on the bottom portion of

my bench press and this has worked wonders for the bottom portion of my

bench press. Also leverage bench pressing about once a month has worked

wonders

for my bottom bench press as well because I have to start in the bottom

position.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 2/13/2009 9:58:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

deadliftdiva@... writes:

Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift.

Conventional. Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more prone to

injury

than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that needs to be overcome!

The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful form and too much weight, the more

I'm convinced that move should be outlawed! Either straight leg deadlift or

full deadlift, and I'd say full DL is better overall anyway.

Seize the bar with chalk and success.

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all for comments regarding hang power cleans and other training

ideas for a high school inside linebacker. I appreciate your time and

thoughtfulness for putting those ideas in writing. I've shared them with my

son. I think he's seeing the importance of more than getting " big " in the

weight room.

Skip Dallen

Covina, CA USA

[Guest guest]

As I said, " There may be some mild loading of the traps during the

initial pull phase but the traps, like the arms should actually be

relaxed so as not to impede the speed of movement. During the shrug

phase the traps are then dynamically involved. "

There should be no conscious loading of the traps upon initiation of

the first pull.

W.G

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Dieog, CA

>

> > I have to disagree with both of you regarding involvement of the traps

> > during certain phases of the lift and in training

>

> > .There may be some mild loading of the traps during the initial pull

> > phase but the traps, like the arms should actually be relaxed so as

> > not to impede the speed of movement. During the shrug phase the traps

> > are then dynamically involved

>

> Telle -- My beliefs are derived from the probable fact that the traps

> cannot be truly relaxed during any phase of the pull or they would

> tear and/or the dynamics/geometrics of the lift would be different.

> Instead I believe them to contract isometrically (which will result in

> some? eccentric lengthening as the tendons stretch). I'm guessing EMG

> would therefore be low compared to the following concentric contraction.

>

> > High pulls are inherently done with conscious and deliberate

> > contraction of the traps as part of a complete training routine.

>

> Telle -- yes -- yet they are still held isometrically until

> dynamically contracted as hip extension completes?? You could?

> concentrically contract the traps initially which is an interesting

> idea.

> >

> > A wise man is not governed by others, nor does he try to govern them;

> > he prefers that reason alone prevail.

>

> Telle --truly

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

[Guest guest]

Dan writes:

'We all have prejudices in means of training selection, originating in

the past as an athlete and the sports we did. "

This undoubtedly true. However, all the strength coaches of my acquaintance are

always actively seeking new and better training methods, including you.

" Some of us will swear for the efficiency of powerlifting, while other will

resort to Weightlifting.'

The some of us who swear by the efficacy of Powerlifting are few and far

between. One reason is the dearth of supporting empirical data.

Throughout the world, in every serious training program, the core resistance

training method used for athlete development is Olympic Weightlifting. I realize

that English is a second language for you, so I'm sure you didn't mean to say

" resort to Weightlifting. "

" Needless to say, " all sports " conditioning is totally

different by each of those sports and blindly applying reicpes of

trainining derived from either is wrong. "

This statement is a bit of a non sequitur. If you don't need to say it. then why

did you? You go on to state the obvious but not with complete accuracy. Actually

there are a number of sports for which the training is quite similar. For

example, my training program preparing Karch Kiraly for Atlanta, designed 2

years in advance in 2004, turned out to be remarkably similar to US heavyweight

wrestler Matt Ghaffari's training program. You do get a bit bombastic from time

to time, something I attrbute to language differences. 

" ...blindly applying reicpes of trainining derived from... " anywhere is

obviously wrong.

As for anyone applying Powerlifting to sports preperation I'm not sure who they

would be, besides . When we had this same discussion last year there was a

strength coach or two mentioned who ostensibly utilize some Powerlifting as part

of their GPP. As Mike Burgener is fond of saying, " There's 50 ways to skin a

cat. " And some ways are much better than others, hence the minimal use of

Powerlifting as part of GPP for sports in this country, particularly at the

college, Olympic and professional levels.

Regarding the extensive use of RDLs in GPP I am an advocate, particularly when

combined with squats. Heavy RDLs contribute greatly to growth, the additional

stress levels contributing to stimulating the release of GH and testerone, which

in turn promotes muscle hypertrophy and better recovery from intense training.

Squats done alternately with RDLs, utilizing the principle of reciprical

inhibition, is a very effective method for making rapid gains in strength.

Language is the source of misunderstandings. - Antoine de Saint-ExuperyW.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

================================

Subject: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

To: Supertraining

Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 5:29 AM

We all have prejudices in means of training selection, originating in

the past as an athlete and the sports we did. Some of us will swear

for the efficiency of powerlifting, while other will resort to

Weighlifting. Needless to say, " all sports " conditioning is totally

different by each of those sports and blindly applying reicpes of

trainining derived from either is wrong.

Another problem with powerlifters concerted to sport conditioning

specialists is that they tend (of corse we cant generalize) to reduce

programs of training for athletes to only 3-4 lifts, which again I

feel is deeply wrong. Sports conditioning is not powerlifting.

Besides, , we can't proceed to outlawing a mean of training just

because we seen them did with improper form. In this case, I could

call for outlawing *squats* !!!!! as the most bastardized exercise,

dealifts , snatches, cleans ... and even loads of other simpler

exercises. But I understand that its might usless to call for

elimination of a mean of training just because it happens that ppl use

improper form.

I would personally *not* use the deadlift too much (if at all)in all

sport conditioning. There are better options (cleans, power cleans,

high pulls for example), and the deadlift falls behind those by far

IMO for sports conditioning.

Very impressive deadlifts where created using only power cleans and

high pulls, and in some cases, not even those. I know for a fact that

there are ppl which didnt trained the deadlift or Olympic pulls , or a

lot of back squats, only to pull over 2.5x BW (actually colse to 3x

IIRC) when called for. Yes, probably many of you on this list wont

believe this story, but this is not important.

=================================

[Guest guest]

I was seeing what others thought before chiming in.

But to be honest - with sprints, swings, db snatches and jumps I'm not

sure I see the need for another hamstring exercise. If I was going to

add one it would be glut-ham-gastroc raises if the apparatus could be

set up. If not - possible a good morning or deadlift.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

> And it's a mighty useless exercise to be done for " traps

> development " .This can be done even with " power shrugs " with the same

> effect.

>

> Then again, It really bothers me that you make false aformations

> on this list and I have to reiterate it in this second message as

> well: please stick to the facts written and do not again fall in the

> trap to put words in the poster's (me or anybody elses) mouth.

>

> Better post something about evolution and lifts.

>

> I hope I made myself very clear.

>

> >> The hip/ham ROM is so short and under loaded as to render it of >>

> little value in

>

> You will realize if you read the messages that the OP wanted to use

> front squats and hang power cleans. He feels that the whole pulling

> mechanism is sufficiently developed by this combination. I do not

> believe so. I believe his combination neglects a lot of the posterior

> chain.

>

> Lifting from above the knee is limited. If you use hang cleans and

> front squats you should you will not get too much leg biceps

> involvement.

>

> Since he was reluctant to my suggestion to add a leg biceps exercise,

> I pointed out that at least lift from the floor or hang below the

> knee, cases in which there is much better involvement of hams.

>

> Dan Partelly

> Oradea, Romania

>

>

> >

> > > Lifting from the floor, or at worst from hag below the knee is

> > > required for back chain development.

> >

> > HI Dan,

> >

> > The dead hang clean is not, as you're stating, a hip ham exercise.

> Its

> > variations are great for mid upper traps, elevators and delts if

> > constructed as such. It will transfer to upper inertial elevation,

> > possibly some counter movement elastic energy storage, rebounding

> > applications in crowds and offensive lineman skills. The hip/ham ROM

> > is so short and under loaded as to render it of little value in

> > developing hip extension.

> >

> > Jerry Telle

> > Lakewood CO USA

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is a video of Ross Enamait deadlifting without any specific

training in the lift and pulling 495 lbs at 170 lbs bodyweight.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108254311

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

> We all have prejudices in means of training selection, originating in

> the past as an athlete and the sports we did. Some of us will swear

> for the efficiency of powerlifting, while other will resort to

> Weighlifting. Needless to say, " all sports " conditioning is totally

> different by each of those sports and blindly applying reicpes of

> trainining derived from either is wrong.

>

> Another problem with powerlifters concerted to sport conditioning

> specialists is that they tend (of corse we cant generalize) to reduce

> programs of training for athletes to only 3-4 lifts, which again I

> feel is deeply wrong. Sports conditioning is not powerlifting.

>

> Besides, , we can't proceed to outlawing a mean of training just

> because we seen them did with improper form. In this case, I could

> call for outlawing *squats* !!!!! as the most bastardized exercise,

> dealifts , snatches, cleans ... and even loads of other simpler

> exercises. But I understand that its might usless to call for

> elimination of a mean of training just because it happens that ppl use

> improper form.

>

> I would personally *not* use the deadlift too much (if at all)in all

> sport conditioning. There are better options (cleans, power cleans,

> high pulls for example), and the deadlift falls behind those by far

> IMO for sports conditioning.

>

> Very impressive deadlifts where created using only power cleans and

> high pulls, and in some cases, not even those. I know for a fact that

> there are ppl which didnt trained the deadlift or Olympic pulls , or a

> lot of back squats, only to pull over 2.5x BW (actually colse to 3x

> IIRC) when called for. Yes, probably many of you on this list wont

> believe this story, but this is not important.

>

> Dan Partelly

> Oradea, ROmania

>

>

> >

> >

> > Typical! the best lift is not an RDL, it's the real deadlift.Â

> Conventional. Why people persist in suggesting the RDL which is more

> prone to injury than a proper actual deadlift is just the mindset that

> needs to be overcome! The more RDL's I see performed with dreadful

> form and too much weight, the more I'm convinced that move should be

> outlawed! Either straight leg deadlift or full deadlift, and I'd say

> full DL is better overall anyway.

> >

> > Seize the bar with chalk and success.

> > the Phantom

> > aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

> > Denver, Colorado, USA

> >

> >

> > Re: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

> >

> >

> > If you are unwilling to add the back squat or full cleans, I would

> suggest

> > you consider adding the Romanian deadlift.

> >

> > Lee

> > Cypress, CA, USA

> > =================================

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

True, and it's not bad form.   But PL would beat him severely at his

bodyweight, they do a good deal more, even with just a belt.  I saw a 181 lb

class (that's the class Ross would be in) master lifter do 650 raw.  Didn't

look hard either.  Heck, Eddie White is only 198 lbs and oh, 58?  661 lbs

there.  Let's see, ronnie coleman is said to do what, 800 lbs with straps? 

Franco Columbu did a real pull with 700 on the bar around 225 lbs, didn't see

straps in that photo.  Course Franco broke down under 2 refrigerators doing

strongman vs hulks about 100 lbs heavier than he was too....

While I respect Dan, I don't agree with his comments below.  I strongly believe

there is much more avoidance of a real squat, a real deadlift, than there is of

partial moves prescribed with less form and more intention of " making a person

strong " or something. 

Sure, there's " no-deadlift " deadlift improvement programs out there.  Westside

Barbell ignored the lift for a very long time. 

I'm a fan of tailoring programs  to the individual overall, not the xeroxed

paper most get anyway.  Sure, I like the real lifts, but I " m also capable of

teaching them sufficiently and safely! 

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/LMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

===============================

Re: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

> >

> >

> > If you are unwilling to add the back squat or full cleans, I would

> suggest

> > you consider adding the Romanian deadlift.

> >

> > Lee

> > Cypress, CA, USA

> > =================================

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nick,

The big problem a lot of beginner lifters make is doing plantar flexion during

the 1st pull and scoop. Plantar flexion should only start doing the power pull

phase.

Garrison, CSCS

Mesa, AZ

=============================

To: Supertraining

From: nick.tatalias@...

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:56:58 +0200

Subject: Re: Hang Power Clean Technique?

Hi Philip

I went through the video of the 75kg and 85kg mens lifters in Beijing and

many used the plantar flexion as a part of the pull, some kept their feet

very flat plantar flexing only enough to transfer the foot position to the

catch.

The reason I asked is I was wondering if I was doing the same old thing

without much application of thought. I agree the " jump stomp " is not a great

idea to teach and will need to unteach this because at least two athletes

are not finishing their 2nd pulls properly exactly because they are hitting

the thighs to early and are going off the floor to early making the pull

less efficient. I will also have to unlearn these things. Fortunately I am

returning from knee injury so I have to pretty much return from scratch so

this is an ideal time.

Thanks , I will go through your post and comment in due course.

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa

2009/2/17 phillip g

> If you ask 100 different WL coaches whether or not ankle flexion was

> best or flat footed was best, you will probably get 50 different answers.

> For most coaches and lifters it's a personal preference, and if you look at

> footage of elite lifters you'll find flat footed and plantar flexed lifters.

>

>

> Garrison, CSCS

> Mesa, AZ

>

> ===============================

>