Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Anecdotal, probably. Truth, maybe in specific cases. I have heard of coaches that don't advise overhead pressing with throwing athletes, but... LIKE ANYTHING, I believe the saying goes, " there are no bad exercises, just bad technique " . Relative the the kettlebell vs dumbbell discussion - I will strict press and push press kettlebells overhead (instead of dumbbells of equal weight) for personal comfort. I NEVER have shoulder impingement symptoms. But I am a male. So maybe that's why. I realize there are a lot of factors that contribute to injury. Overhead pressing being a straw that breaks a camels back often gets a bad rap. Being that this was a work written by a PT, whom most likely realizes the incidence of scapular instability in general population can lead to rotator cuff pathology, which in turn leads to chronic inflammation, GH displacement and of course impingement (assuming the subject does not have some form of bony deformity about the acromion or coracoid). Female gymnasts spend loads of time supporting their body weight using their upper extremities. Are female gymnasts more often injured about the shoulder complex than males (I really am asking)? I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the hips/low back (like most people tend to)? Being an ATC that has worked with Baseball players for a few years now I have had quite a bit of success strengthening Scap Stabilizers and Rotator Cuffs and utilizing progressive resistance with proper technique. I DO USE OVERHEAD PRESSING since, when done properly, the scapular stabilizers are engaged throughout a full range of motion. But again, these are mostly male athletes. From my anecdotal experience, if an impingment occurs in the abscence of a bony deformity, then overhead presses are no more likely to cause injury when done correctly than anything else. Sam B, LAT/ATC, CSCS Lees Summit MO, USA > > My wife was reading a book, " The Core Program " , by Peggy W. Brill, P.T., O.C.S. > > In the book, it recommends against doing overhead dumbbell presses " because of the excessive compression forces on the should joints, this exercise can cause shoulder impingement, bursitis, and tendinitis " . > > Is this a factual statement? There was no bibliography to support this statement, so I'm wondering if this is simply anecdotal, or there has been actual research showing that dumbbell presses, for women, can cause shoulder problems. > > From my own personal experience, dumbbell bench presses (which the above author does recommend) have caused more aches and pains in my shoulders than overhead dumbbell presses. > > Ed > Atlanta, Georgia > USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 > I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking > original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus > on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the > hips/low back (like most people tend to)? In the first part, it covers core exercises, mainly for hips/low back/abs. In a different section, it covers a general strength training routine, where the note against overhead dumbbell presses was mentioned. I found a website for the authors Physical Therapy practice in New York - http://www.brillpt.com I did not find an email address, but there were phone numbers, so I'm considering calling, on the small chance that I might be able to talk to the author. Ed Atlanta, Georgia USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Sam, When you are designing your programs do you use any ratio of pressing to scapular stabilizing movements like a 1:1 or 1:2? Casey Gallagher CSCS Snohomish, WA USA > > > > My wife was reading a book, " The Core Program " , by Peggy W. Brill, P.T., O.C.S. > > > > In the book, it recommends against doing overhead dumbbell presses " because of the excessive compression forces on the should joints, this exercise can cause shoulder impingement, bursitis, and tendinitis " . > > > > Is this a factual statement? There was no bibliography to support this statement, so I'm wondering if this is simply anecdotal, or there has been actual research showing that dumbbell presses, for women, can cause shoulder problems. > > > > From my own personal experience, dumbbell bench presses (which the above author does recommend) have caused more aches and pains in my shoulders than overhead dumbbell presses. > > > > Ed > > Atlanta, Georgia > > USA > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Ed, The problem with a statement that an exercise causes injuries, as several posters have already stated, is false. If this were true every Olympic weight lifting competitor would have shoulder problems. Granted they use a barbell but they still perform an overhead press with incredibly heavy weight. As one poster already noted, it's not the exercise but the performance of the exercise that may cause or lead ot injury. Casey Gallagher CSCS Snohomish, WA USA > > > I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking > > original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus > > on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the > > hips/low back (like most people tend to)? > > In the first part, it covers core exercises, mainly for hips/low > back/abs. > > In a different section, it covers a general strength training > routine, where the note against overhead dumbbell presses was > mentioned. > > I found a website for the authors Physical Therapy practice in > New York - http://www.brillpt.com > > I did not find an email address, but there were phone numbers, so > I'm considering calling, on the small chance that I might be able > to talk to the author. > > Ed > Atlanta, Georgia > USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I am a 62 year old masters discus thrower. I developed severe rotator cuff problems from years of bench pressing incorrectly. My shoulders hurt so badly that I couldn't throw a ball overhand. About a year ago, I started training with kettlebells, doing mainly one- and two-arm swings, clean and press, and one arm snatches. Also, I stopped bench pressing. My shoulders feel terrific and I am able to do overhead barbell presses and snatches without pain. I even started throwing the javelin again (so I can really ruin my shoulder). I don't think overhead lifts are dangerous if the shoulder muscles are strong and balanced and the joints are stable. This problem is difficult to study and gather evidence-based research. Even though I am only an n of one, I think my experience is similar to that of other long-time power athletes. Tom Fahey California State University, Chico USA ============================= Re: Re: Dangerous exercises? Hi Ed, My own anecdotal evidence may help. I have had impingement issue on my right shoulder, due in large parts to a broken clavicle that has change the angles in the AC joint. However I have found that overhead press (I press from the clean rack position) has helped me with my rehab, also incline bench pressing seemed to help. Bench Pressing tends to hurt the shoulder and I have to progress very slowly, it took me two years to go from 40kg with out pain to my recent PB of 150kg raw and 182.5kg with single ply shirt, pain free. However I miss your criteria as I am a man, not a woman and I primarily use a bar, but I have also done dumbbell presses and " Turkish get ups " with dumbbells during my ramp up rehab programme. I don't see the injury problem, but others here have noted that stopping overhead pressing have helped there overall health. Regards, Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa 2009/6/2 gallagher220 : > > > Ed, > > The problem with a statement that an exercise causes injuries, as several > posters have already stated, is false. If this were true every Olympic > weight lifting competitor would have shoulder problems. Granted they use a > barbell but they still perform an overhead press with incredibly heavy > weight. As one poster already noted, it's not the exercise but the > performance of the exercise that may cause or lead ot injury. > > Casey Gallagher CSCS > Snohomish, WA USA > > >> >> > I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking >> > original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus >> > on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the >> > hips/low back (like most people tend to)? >> >> In the first part, it covers core exercises, mainly for hips/low >> back/abs. >> >> In a different section, it covers a general strength training >> routine, where the note against overhead dumbbell presses was >> mentioned. >> >> I found a website for the authors Physical Therapy practice in >> New York - http://www.brillpt.com >> >> I did not find an email address, but there were phone numbers, so >> I'm considering calling, on the small chance that I might be able >> to talk to the author. >> >> Ed >> Atlanta, Georgia >> USA >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Casey, Not sure I fully understand your question. Are you asking about a loading ratio or volume? Either way, " not exactly " would probably be the answer for either. Most of the work I do is after injury symptoms are present. I would like to get some " data " on " healthy " subjects. I do have a method, but I Am responding using my iTouch at a wifi hotspot so my eyes an thumbs are killing me. I can send you a better response later if you like, or if you have some suggestions about this ratio I would love to hear it. Sam Brethauer Lees Summit MO USA. > > > > > > My wife was reading a book, " The Core Program " , by Peggy W. Brill, P.T., O.C.S. > > > > > > In the book, it recommends against doing overhead dumbbell presses " because of the excessive compression forces on the should joints, this exercise can cause shoulder impingement, bursitis, and tendinitis " . > > > > > > Is this a factual statement? There was no bibliography to support this statement, so I'm wondering if this is simply anecdotal, or there has been actual research showing that dumbbell presses, for women, can cause shoulder problems. > > > > > > From my own personal experience, dumbbell bench presses (which the above author does recommend) have caused more aches and pains in my shoulders than overhead dumbbell presses. > > > > > > Ed > > > Atlanta, Georgia > > > USA > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 , I couldn't agree more that we are only as strong or (in this case) as healthy as our weakest link. Muscular imbalance can lead to odd or improper technique that can lead to chronic or acute injury so there is a close correlation between the two. However when a person who publishes a book that states a specific exercise can lead to injury without any qualifying statements, I would argue that it's not the exercise but the performance of that exercise whether it be due to a lack of scapular stabilization, rotator cuff strength and balance and so on. On a side note I have noticed for some time that you sign with Ph.D. Should I use the correct salutation of Dr. Pitruxzello? This is an honest question. Casey Gallagher CSCS Snohomish, WA USA > > >> > > >> > I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking > > >> > original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus > > >> > on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the > > >> > hips/low back (like most people tend to)? > > >> > > >> In the first part, it covers core exercises, mainly for hips/low > > >> back/abs. > > >> > > >> In a different section, it covers a general strength training > > >> routine, where the note against overhead dumbbell presses was > > >> mentioned. > > >> > > >> I found a website for the authors Physical Therapy practice in > > >> New York - http://www.brillpt.com > > >> > > >> I did not find an email address, but there were phone numbers, so > > >> I'm considering calling, on the small chance that I might be able > > >> to talk to the author. > > >> > > >> Ed > > >> Atlanta, Georgia > > >> USA > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > J. Pitruzzello, Ph.D. > Chicago, Illinois > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Hi Casey, I prefer " Doctor Tony. " Just kidding. I noticed that many members identify themselves with respect to their professional credentials. Because there is a kind of stereotype among the general public that those involved in strength training are " dumbbells " of one sort or another, for me, it's fun to see how many people in this group have professional and/or academic qualifications of one sort or another. In some sense it can also be useful when " Dr. " means M.D. or a Ph.D. in a field like kinesiology or biomechanics. Mine is in quantitative research methodology, so it's less to the point. R/ Tony P. J. Pitruzzello, Ph.D. Chicago, Illinois > > > , > > I couldn't agree more that we are only as strong or (in this case) as > healthy as our weakest link. Muscular imbalance can lead to odd or improper > technique that can lead to chronic or acute injury so there is a close > correlation between the two. However when a person who publishes a book that > states a specific exercise can lead to injury without any qualifying > statements, I would argue that it's not the exercise but the performance of > that exercise whether it be due to a lack of scapular stabilization, rotator > cuff strength and balance and so on. > > On a side note I have noticed for some time that you sign with Ph.D. Should > I use the correct salutation of Dr. Pitruxzello? This is an honest question. > > > Casey Gallagher CSCS > Snohomish, WA USA > > > > > >> > > > >> > I have not read or heard of this book and am merely asking > > > >> > original poster, but, does this book " The Core Program " focus > > > >> > on the core stabilizers of the upper extremity or merely the > > > >> > hips/low back (like most people tend to)? > > > >> > > > >> In the first part, it covers core exercises, mainly for hips/low > > > >> back/abs. > > > >> > > > >> In a different section, it covers a general strength training > > > >> routine, where the note against overhead dumbbell presses was > > > >> mentioned. > > > >> > > > >> I found a website for the authors Physical Therapy practice in > > > >> New York - http://www.brillpt.com > > > >> > > > >> I did not find an email address, but there were phone numbers, so > > > >> I'm considering calling, on the small chance that I might be able > > > >> to talk to the author. > > > >> > > > >> Ed > > > >> Atlanta, Georgia > > > >> USA > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Pitruzzello, Ph.D. > > Chicago, Illinois > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Casey, I get your point. That seems like a reasonable demand/ratio. What I use is less quantitative and more qualitative (my own little " visual analog " scale). A 1:1 ratio goal when conditioning a " healthy " subject would probably do wonders for some of the young men and women I have worked with over the last few years. From a scapula® positioning and postural point of view, I usually intervene when chronic protraction is giving way to supraspinatus impingment and in many cases levator trigger points. In that common scenario more time is spent working on retracting the scapula typically using retraction exercises and pulling motions below shoulder height. With pitchers is almost goes hand in hand that chronic protraction will present with some level of GIRD. When ROM is restored and pain/inflammation has subsided then I add in overhead stabilizing exercises - where the arm is fully extended and held in a position statically then with ballistic perturbation and eventually incorporated into a " functional " exercise (lunging with a weight held overhead)- using basic load progression (with gravity to against gravity then adding weight, etc). At that time I really look scapular positioning. Does the serratus anterior stay engaged or with fatigue does it appear the subject shrugs more with the levator and trap to hold arm up. With success and no pain then I do some of the more basic exercises under fatigue to observe for changes in stabilizing patterns. As subjects are ready to return to standard conditioning I work on maintenance and the world famous Istvan Javorek handles most of our strength and conditioning programs at County Community College. I am not exactly sure what criteria he uses for balancing pressing and pulling motions. I think your 1:1 ratio is adequate and very sensical. I think we both are of the opinion in this case that pressing exercises can be part of a solid strengthening program for prevention and can be used for progressive strengthening following injury - maybe not immediately but as inflammation and pain have subsided. Sam Brethauer Lees Summit MO USA > > > > > > > > My wife was reading a book, " The Core Program " , by Peggy W. Brill, P.T., O.C.S. > > > > > > > > In the book, it recommends against doing overhead dumbbell presses " because of the excessive compression forces on the should joints, this exercise can cause shoulder impingement, bursitis, and tendinitis " . > > > > > > > > Is this a factual statement? There was no bibliography to support this statement, so I'm wondering if this is simply anecdotal, or there has been actual research showing that dumbbell presses, for women, can cause shoulder problems. > > > > > > > > From my own personal experience, dumbbell bench presses (which the above author does recommend) have caused more aches and pains in my shoulders than overhead dumbbell presses. > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > Atlanta, Georgia > > > > USA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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