Re: Re: Something I want to share...

[Guest guest]

Kathleen

When you're able to be the kind of mom your kids need without having had the

example, that says a whole lot about you.

Take care

Minja

> Re: Something I want to share...

>

> ditto here....actually my sisters, Mimi and Lizzie (who passed

> away) were very interested in dissecting the nada problem. Other

> family members called it " obsessing " . I found it to be like a

> scientific inquiry.

>

> That book " Understanding the Borderline Mother " is so good for

> this.

>

> You know how " normal " people have this internal wealth of

> nurturing that comes from having a mother not a nada? You

> know how they go into big smiles when they have a smell of

> food, or smell their mother's perfume, or meet someone who

> reminds them of their mother?

>

> I don't have that. I have no nurturing memories. My kids do bec.

> I've cooked with them and made them memories, but I've been

> working from empty most of the time. I read books about

> homemaking and try out things like cinnamon rolls. etc. The big

> kids already have a wealth of memories based on my mothering

> and I can see them passing them to the younger siblings.

>

> But they don't know that I'm shooting from empty and making it

> up as I go along. But I love that I am filling them up with good

> memories.

>

> when my kids where at the mean dour dreadful parochial school,

> they had to take the bus. It was hard for them bec. they were

> formerly backyard sunshine CA homeschooled kids, and now

> they were on the bus in a Northeastern city, and it was gritty and

> gray and the school was emotionally icy. We are still working

> through the effects of that episode.

>

> Anyway, I would walk the 6 blocks everyday to meet the

> schoolbus and one day my big girl told me, " Oh Mommy, the best

> part of the day is when I see you at the bus stop " .

>

> Kathleen

>

>

>

> To get off the list, send a blank message to

> ModOasis-unsubscribe . Send questions & concerns to

> ModOasis-owner . " Stop Waking on Eggshells, " a primer for

> non-BPs can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For the table of

> contents, see http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I could have written this post. I realized last night after I went to bed that

the only " warm fuzzy " memories I have are of holidays. Well, at least most of

them. One Christmas I got molested by a cousin. Nada was too drunk to notice

or care.

Anyway, I was thinking about what to do this Christmas, now that I'm divorced.

I have decided that all nada's traditions are going and I am going to build new

ones.

Hania

I don't recall ever having any good times with nada.

The only good I recall her giving or sharing is having

her cook fabulous Thanksgiving meals and Easter

dinners when we were children. Funny, now that I think

of it - that was IT! All it ever was that I clung to.

This is what I've idealized as family all these years.

Other than those Holiday meals there was never any

other bonding, sharing or - fun? Hah. Our interactions

have never been anything more than her miserable

suffering or her shaming of me. That was the extent of

our relationship. That bonding during the holiday

feasts were the extent of our familial relationship.

No wonder my brother only finds it only important

enough to want to be with me on the holidays.

That's all it's ever been. Isn't it amazing that I've

only just *really* realized this now? Isn't it sad

that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

give her/him more than this?

Amazing... that FOGging really must be some VERY

powerful stuff. I feel incredibly foolish.

Cyndie

Everyday another piece of the puzzle gets put into

place. *Flash* - that was the light bulb lighting up

the puzzle.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Wow, just my opinion, but that was kind of rough!

The orginal wording could have been more " correctly "

worded like " in my experience, or do you think maybe

she does love you, but not in the way you need " .....

but wow, that was quite the public lashing.

--- Cyndie McCoy wrote:

>

> --- southernes@... wrote:

> > I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell

> > myself every day that she

> > loves me to the best of her ability. It's just

> that

> > she can't do very much.

> > She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to

> > do any better. It doesn't

> > make it right, it does make me feel better to view

> > it this way.

>

> Southernes,

>

> Thank you for your reply. However, I don't think

> that

> my nada is capable of knowing what love is. I'm not

> sure that as a KO that *I* can possibly conceive of

> the all possibilities that the word love invokes as

> it

> does for children who grew up living with it. I

> don't

> think I am a good enough judge of it at this point

> to

> be able to make that statement. I also don't think

> that anyone else can tell me how I should I feel

> about

> nadas love or that they can presume to know my nada

> well enough to tell me that she really does love me.

> You are however, I believe, correct to some degree

> and

> I have to agree with that. But lets not minimize the

> effect nada has had on my life by telling me my nada

> loves me. That is incredibly invalidating. (My

> brothers wife, this past spring - after I told her

> what nada had done to me? Know what she said???

> " Yes,

> relationships between mothers and daughters are

> special. " ) You might as well have said the same

> thing

> to me. She's said what you said above...

>

> I think you missed the whole point of the post you

> were responding to. But thank you for bringing this

> up. I needed a good healthy vent. If I may

> continue...

>

> Southernes, what you wrote is exactly what I and

> others have told me for years. What you wrote kept

> me

> sitting in my shxt for much longer than I had to. It

> kept me in denial and was a great manipulator of my

> personal integretity and my right to my own feelings

> about nada. nada is nada no matter if she loves

> distortly or not - it doesn't excuse what she's done

> -

> it only makes it forgiveable because she's got a

> mental illness. But it doesn't change the fact that

> she's damaged and controlled my life for all these

> years. It also doesn't change the fact that her love

> sucks.

>

> If I may expound on nadas love a bit...

>

> This is nadas love - I hate you, don't leave me. I

> will tell everyone you hold dear in your heart what

> a

> worthless whore you are so that no one else will

> love

> you. I will stalk you by phone, day and night. I

> will

> stalk the people in your life day and night. I will

> leave you ugly distorted vile messages on your vm. I

> will leave ugly distorted vile messages for your

> husband on your vm. I will destroy your life. I will

> tell your kids that they are shameful like I did to

> you. I will never let you forget that you are my

> daughter and that all of these things I have said to

> you ARE you because they are me. I hate myself so

> much

> that I will make sure you feel that hate and shame

> about yourself so much that you will never forget

> where you came from. I will make sure you cling to

> me

> because you're all I have and if it takes destroying

> your heart and soul and manipulate you with

> obligation

> and pity for me I will do it because I hate myself

> so

> much that I will do anything in the world to possess

> your soul and spirit to give me the love I cannot

> give

> myself OR YOU. Remember daughter (not even the

> privielege of possessing my own name,) that you are

> mine - all mine for the rest of your life. I would

> rather see you dead than dessert me on this earth.

> You

> are a baaaaaaad SHAMEFUL LITTLE GIRL AND I HATE YOU

> WHEN YOU TELL ME I AM THE BAAAAAAD SHAMEFUL LITTLE

> GIRL BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT AND YOU CAN NEVER BE

> RIGHT

> BECAUSE *I AM THE MOTHER.* And when you are dead

> because I've killed you like I did your two

> brothers,

> I will come and claim my just glory as your MOTHER

> because *I AM THE MOTHER.*

>

> That is nadas love. You want it? You can have it.

>

> But in the end, Southernes, you are right. I know

> that

> she does love me. But yuk - I don't want that love.

> I

> just don't. I'm sorry that you took my post and

> decided to reply to it out of context. And I'm sorry

> to let you have it here. But I've just had that line

> shoved down my throat one too many times and I

> really

> won't stand to have my thoughts and feelings

> invalidated by anyone anymore. I really dislike

> being

> misunderstood.

>

> Cyndie

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

<<<< just don't. I'm sorry that you took my post and

> decided to reply to it out of context. And I'm sorry

> to let you have it here. But I've just had that line

> shoved down my throat one too many times and I

> really

> won't stand to have my thoughts and feelings

> invalidated by anyone anymore. I really dislike

> being

> misunderstood.>>>>>

Cyndie, We all hate to be misunderstood, but in this case there is so much anger

in your reply. Are you angry at someone on the list or just triggered and

taking it out on the list? There's a difference. Even I had trouble hearing

all the anger and it wasn't directed at me. Anger is definitely part of the

grieving process, but when someone is simply trying to state how they view

things and to help, isn't a good reason to vent at them. Somtimes it helps to

write an email and sit on it a while before sending it - to see if you really

feel that way - or if it has triggered something from the past.

Ilene

>

[Guest guest]

And if she had noticed or cared (???) she more than

likely would have shamed you for it...

--- Hania wrote:

> I could have written this post. I realized last

> night after I went to bed that the only " warm fuzzy "

> memories I have are of holidays. Well, at least

> most of them. One Christmas I got molested by a

> cousin. Nada was too drunk to notice or care.

>

> Anyway, I was thinking about what to do this

> Christmas, now that I'm divorced. I have decided

> that all nada's traditions are going and I am going

> to build new ones.

> Hania

>

>

>

>

> I don't recall ever having any good times with nada.

> The only good I recall her giving or sharing is

> having

> her cook fabulous Thanksgiving meals and Easter

> dinners when we were children. Funny, now that I

> think

> of it - that was IT! All it ever was that I clung

> to.

> This is what I've idealized as family all these

> years.

>

>

> Other than those Holiday meals there was never any

> other bonding, sharing or - fun? Hah. Our

> interactions

> have never been anything more than her miserable

> suffering or her shaming of me. That was the extent

> of

> our relationship. That bonding during the holiday

> feasts were the extent of our familial relationship.

> No wonder my brother only finds it only important

> enough to want to be with me on the holidays.

>

> That's all it's ever been. Isn't it amazing that

> I've

> only just *really* realized this now? Isn't it sad

> that a mother could not love a child enough to want

> to

> give her/him more than this?

>

> Amazing... that FOGging really must be some VERY

> powerful stuff. I feel incredibly foolish.

>

> Cyndie

>

> Everyday another piece of the puzzle gets put into

> place. *Flash* - that was the light bulb lighting up

> the puzzle.

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

--- ilene@... wrote:

> Cyndie, We all hate to be misunderstood, but in this

> case there is so much anger

> in your reply. Are you angry at someone on the list

> or just triggered and

> taking it out on the list? There's a difference.

Hi Ilene,

The post triggered the very issue that brought me

here.

All my life I've been listening - but I've never been

heard.

I'm sorry that I hurt anyone. This has drained me, I'm

going to bed... and thank you for caring.

Cyndie

> Even I had trouble hearing

> all the anger and it wasn't directed at me. Anger

> is definitely part of the

> grieving process, but when someone is simply trying

> to state how they view

> things and to help, isn't a good reason to vent at

> them. Somtimes it helps to

> write an email and sit on it a while before sending

> it - to see if you really

> feel that way - or if it has triggered something

> from the past.

>

> Ilene

> >

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndie and Southernes,

I'm new to this group so I don't really know the dynamics of anyone's personal

situation, I don't want to step on any toes, but I would like to reply to these

messages.

> --- southernes@... wrote:

> > I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell

> > myself every day that she

> > loves me to the best of her ability. It's just

> that

> > she can't do very much.

> > She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to

> > do any better. It doesn't

> > make it right, it does make me feel better to view

> > it this way.

>

> Southernes,

I understand that you were trying to help 'fix' Cyndie's feelings about not

being loved by telling her what helps you to cope with a mentally ill mother.

There are different levels of BPD plus mixtures of other personality disorders..

and other mental illness's thrown into the mix. Some may be able hold down a

job, some can't... same with love, some may be able to.... and some can't. So

we really can't say what another's nada is like. Some KO's I know can see some

love in their nada's, mine spews the words when she want's something but she is

incapable of love, unless it's self love.

Trying to help 'fix' peoples feelings was learned at our nada's knee... it's a

flea I think all of us possess when we come here. The only person we can 'fix'

is ourselves.... I'm sure what you wrote is very helpful to some KO's.... but

not all.

--- Cyndie McCoy wrote:

Cyndie, I'm really sorry for what you've gone through. I think what you wrote

about your

'nada' needed to be said and venting is healthy... The word that caused the

problem here is the word 'YOU' in both emails. Direct that anger where it

belongs.... at your nada.

You said " I also don't think that anyone else can tell me how I should I

feel " You're absolutely right... eliminate the word 'should' from your

vocabulary... in all aspects of your life.

You said: " Doesn't excuse what she's done

Nothing excuses what they've done, you don't have to 'forgive' what they've

done... with recovery you will be able to accept it for what it was, never allow

it to happen again, and move past it.... and it's a wonderful feeling.

You said: This is nadas love -

Here's how I relate with my nada's love....

I hate you, don't leave me.

I will tell everyone you hold dear in your heart what a worthless person you

are so that no one else will love you.

I will stalk you by phone, day and night.

I will destroy your life.

I will tell your kids that they are shameful

I will never let you forget that you are my daughter and that all of these

things I have said to you ARE you because they are me.

(Part of the illness is projecting their feeling of self hate onto us)

manipulate you with obligation and pity for me

you are mine - all mine for the rest of your life.

(not any more....)

I would rather see you dead than dessert me on this earth.

YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHT BECAUSE *I AM THE MOTHER.*

> I've killed you like I did your two

> brothers,

I'm soooo very sorry you lost your brothers, I can only imagine the pain.

You have every right to be angry/hate your nada.... Not that long ago I was

filled with hate for my nada.... she can be a very evil woman. I know that

feeling 'she's killing me'

I spent close to 40 years thinking about suicide... I was severly clinically

depressed, I had hit bottom and found a life line.... Oasis, as I progressed in

recovery I got off a mega load of antidepressants and have beaten depression.

Keep posting and sharing stories and recovery 'will' happen.

Hugs,

Kris

[Guest guest]

--- Kris wrote:

> I'm soooo very sorry you lost your brothers, I can

> only imagine the pain.

Hi Kris,

It's not like my brothers and I grew up having a

healthy normal relationship. What we did have was each

other even if we weren't close growing up. We were all

too busy surviving to know what a relationship was.

The brothers that I lost were the only ones who were

capable of communicating to me when we became adults.

Especially one, who was the only one to admit that

there was abuse.

> You have every right to be angry/hate your

> nada.... Not that long ago I was filled with hate

> for my nada....

I'll have to think about this one. I'm not sure that I

hate nada. Maybe you know or see something I don't.

But for me, I think the anger/hate you saw in my post

was more anger/frustration as I have never had those

feelings validated by my surviving brother and his

wife. The post triggered the frustration I feel with

brother & his wife. I think I've accepted nada for

what she is. I have a hard time accepting denial and

invalidation from others I think *should* be able to

understand and see it.

>she can be a very evil woman.

Exactly, and when this is invalidated I get triggered.

My brother and SIL minimize who nada really is.

I

> know that feeling 'she's killing me'

And what's frustrated me most in my life, and was THE

reason that I came to this list is the last

interaction I'd had with my surviving brother who

refuses to validate me. I tried to explain this to my

brother and he just refuses to even try to understand

me. It's not that he's not aware that nada has mental

illness. (Although he doesn't know what it is.) It's

that he refuses to validate ME. I don't know why.

Neither he nor his wife will give me any credit for

having valid feelings about the impact nada has had on

my life. THAT is my struggle. It's not nada that I'm

angry at - her I can understand - it's my surviving

brother and his wife that I'm angry at. And the post

that I *should* or that *someone else* is SURE that my

nada loves me - gets my goat. I don't know how to get

rid of that frustration. I want them to get it - to

BELIEVE me - to HEAR ME - but they just look at me

like I'm the nut - the trouble maker - the bitter one,

and on and on. I'm not bitter, I'm not hateful, I just

wanted them to validate my experience with nada -

that's all. I'm not asking them to hate her, I'm not

asking them to choose sides. They can go on loving

nada if that's what they want - but they won't

consider my feelings. They have no compassion or

empathy for ME. I don't understand it. Like I said,

nada I can understand - why do I find it so hard to

understand their denial???

> I spent close to 40 years thinking about

> suicide... I was severly clinically depressed, I had

> hit bottom

I hit my bottom 5 1/2 years ago when the 2nd brother

died. I was severely depressed. I made my out of it

without meds, without longterm therapy, and with a BP

traited husband and crazy mother and surviving brother

and SIL who couldn't understand my grief. My surviving

brother and his wife don't think nada is in any way

responsible for the deaths of my brothers. How could

they not??? Is it normal to have two out of four

siblings die of AIDS??? Isn't it obvious that there's

something wrong??? Still they refuse to validate me.

They think I'm bitter and full of hate. But I'm not,

I'm full of frustration at their invalidation of me.

Once again, THAT is why I came here - to deal with the

frustration of their invalidation of me. I'm stuck on

it and don't know how to get past it. That's what this

about.

and found a life line.... Oasis, as I

> progressed in recovery I got off a mega load of

> antidepressants and have beaten depression. Keep

> posting and sharing stories and recovery 'will'

> happen.

Kris, recovery is happening for me. (And I'm sooo glad

you're here and sooo glad you've beat depression!)

I've just hit this bump in the road. And I'm not so

sure that recovery will ever mean accepting

invalidation of my feelings. It may mean not becoming

angry and frustrated when they are... but right now, I

guess this needed to come out. It's my demon. That

power I give to brother and SIL. I don't understand

them - if I can get to understand them, I'll be better

able to (heh heh,)*let go.* Which is another loose

term that brother and SIL (as well as others) have

said to me to invalidate my feelings. I've got this

codpendenet streak where my brother and SIL are

concerned. I guess my expectations were to high to

think they could be open to my reality - I'm too

stubborn to back down - to codpendent at *wanting*

them to *get it.* They just may never get it and I'm

making it my problem.

So yes, invalidation and fluff really trigger me. When

I know full well what I experienced and someone fluffs

it over - oh boy, I get angry. I haven't learned how

to get over this. I'm only sorry I hurt someone else

because of this.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ilene wrote:

Cyndie, We all hate to be misunderstood, but in this case there is so much

anger

in your reply. Are you angry at someone on the list or just triggered and

taking it out on the list? There's a difference. Even I had trouble hearing

all the anger and it wasn't directed at me. Anger is definitely part of the

grieving process, but when someone is simply trying to state how they view

things and to help, isn't a good reason to vent at them. Somtimes it helps to

write an email and sit on it a while before sending it - to see if you really

feel that way - or if it has triggered something from the past.

Great advise Ilene!

Kris

[Guest guest]

>>>>

So yes, invalidation and fluff really trigger me. When

I know full well what I experienced and someone fluffs

it over - oh boy, I get angry. I haven't learned how

to get over this. I'm only sorry I hurt someone else

because of this.

Cyndie>>>>>

Have you said this to southernes? she left the group (unsubed) and says she

won't ever join another group.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

Kris wrote:

<<

Let you in on a little secret... on my road to recovery.... guess who I

lashed out at..... Our dear sweet Edith... that's right! Remember

Edith?

>>

Huh? Did I hear someone talking about me?

<yawn>

Oh, Hi Kris. Hmmmm. That was 2-3 years ago. I'm mostly into remembering

the fun stuff now. I think the best thing about growing older is this

swiss cheese brain. <wink> But, then, maybe I was wearing my

Seeing-Thru-KO-Goggles (patent pending).

And Kris wrote:

<<

The road to recovery is hard, we have much to learn and unlearn....

>>

Yes. It is slow hard work, while one memory bubble after another floats

to the surface to be reprocessed. But I see lots of these KO's

Nada-Shxt-Detectors (patent pending) are starting to work.

<beep, beep, beep>

<<

but the end of that road..... ahhh... it's worth every tear shed.

>>

Yes, absolutely. And it is like Ann Lawson wrote in her book,

Understanding the Borderline Mother:

" Pain that is expressed, heard, and believed is not experienced in vain.

Pain that is heard can then be tolerated and healed. (p 290)

" The Witch's children grow up. They learn to speak; they remember the

truth. Some may remain silent forever, protecting themselves from the

unendurable horror of telling the truth that no one believes. Those who

speak find that very few people are prepared to hear what they have to

say. (p 290)

" Borderline mothers ... cannot see what they are doing. Those of us who

can see must shine the light of our understanding like a beacon guiding

a ship to harbor, or share in the responsibility of allowing mothers to

drown their own chidren in a sea of despair. " (p. 307)

<sigh>

Thanks, Kris, for signing on to help out. You're a gem.

Hugs,

Edith