Re: the birthday

[Guest guest]

--- thanksforthisday

> What hurts is that my brothers and sisters are such

> cowards and

> will do anything to maintain the family system.

In reality, as I see it today, this is splitting the

characters into the all bad category. Denial runs

deeply through the veins of dysfunction. We were

taught to deny and to see the untruth of it all for a

long time. It takes a LOT for us to get out, and some

of us never do...

I take pity on them b/c I know what it feels like to

live in truth and maybe someday very soon I'll be able

to put what I know and believe to the test... in their

presence. It does not matter anymore if they agree

with me or not - it only matters that I believe what I

know to be true. I think I am letting go...

But

> I read about

> this in Toxic Parents...I don't matter to them.

Oh, contra're! You matter *very* much to them. You

see, you've upset the family dynamics, brought the

secrets to the light. Your feelings may not matter -

but you do - big time.

But

> I matter to me.

And that's all that matters...

It

> did not hurt to the point of tears or its taking up

> all my time. It was

> more extremely annoying and frustrating.

I can't say that my sibs invalidation of me didn't

take up space in my head - it did. It was the reason I

wound up here. I know what that frustration is - it

was beyond annoyance.

They do not

> see that

> they are perpetuating the same family system that so

> destroyed

> us.

No they don't and there's nothing we can do change

their minds about it. All we can do is get ourSelves

healthy. In Divorcare the running theme was, " The Best

Revenge Is a Happy Life. " Not that we want revenge,

maybe just that victory which can only be found in

ourSelves.

Nada has SUCH a grip on them and she relishes

> it.

Yes, small sacrifices we are...

>

> The latest is nada's attempt to gain sympathy and

> access to the

> grandkids.

nada called my MIL again. Last week my daughter told

me her (good) grandmother told her that her grandnada

wished we could get back together, that she's getting

old and she may not be around too long. My daughter is

10. I am furious, but I trust my daughter to trust and

know me.

I told my brother in law and sister that

> unfortunately, I

> am the door to the grandchildren.

Absolutely. However, in trying to be fair and consider

my childrens feelings and thoughts about nada, I have

allowed them to come to their own conclusions and

choices regarding seeing their grandnada. I allow them

to see her when she harrasses my ex to bring them. I

may not like it (because she is exacting her version

authority as mother over *me*,) but so long as she

causes no harm to them, and I am here as their guide -

I allow them this choice. All nada's are different,

some of them can be loving grandparents to some

degree. However, they understand the harm she's

inflicted on me. They understand that the harm she

inflicts on me is not what she gives to them... and

then again... as I say, I am here as their guide.

I refuse to be

> tossed away by

> my own mother. I should matter MORE than the

> grandchildren to

> my mother and I will not stand to the side and NOT

> MATTER.

Oh, contra're again. You *do* matter very much. It's

getting to you through the grandchildren that she's

doing. She is commanding her right to *your* children.

As stated above, she is exacting her authority as

matriach/mother over you. They are hers because they

are yours. Control, control, control. " I'll get you my

pretty... " anyway she can...

I

> also reiterated that I was not going to join a

> family where my

> sister who has been so abused is not welcome.

Absolutely, you have a right to stand by your sister

and believe in your truths.

They

> feel guilty

> about it, because my brother in law is hosting the

> toxic family

> Christmas.

I'm not sure where he falls in, in regards to your

abused sister and the guilt...

>

> No greetings from the other family members including

> nada. My

> younger sis didn't know that nada didn't greet my

> co-banished

> sister on her birthday 10 days ago. Nada is making

> it seem that

> we are boycotting her. She is such a liar.

But you are boycotting her abuse and lies... aren't

you? She's just making you the scapegoat for it by

casting herself as the victim - they, in their trance

have to believe her for their own fragile identities

sake.

>

> Today I feel angry about it.

And so you should. Anger is good...

>

> More proof that I don't matter to them as a real

> person. Only

> inasmuch as I help to prop up the family trance.

Exactly, and they will do everything possible to

scapegoat you as the bad person - anything to protect

the myth.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> --- thanksforthisday <thanksforthisday@y...>

> > What hurts is that my brothers and sisters are such

> > cowards and

> > will do anything to maintain the family system.

>

> In reality, as I see it today, this is splitting the

> characters into the all bad category. Denial runs

> deeply through the veins of dysfunction. We were

> taught to deny and to see the untruth of it all for a

> long time. It takes a LOT for us to get out, and some

> of us never do...

OK...I can see that. They are as trapped as I was, and it nearly

broke me to break away. My sibs were the dearest thing in my life

and we stood together against the uncle villains. The part about

nada gets tricky because since nada was my age she was

making the boys help support the family (they were teenagers)

they don't see it as inappropriate burden. I can see how it

cemented the waif in their inner beings. None of them are

married. One's marriage broke up bec. of verbal abuse, the other

two have never even had steady girlfriends.

At the beginning I could hardly bear it to think that they were

taking nada's side.

>

> I take pity on them b/c I know what it feels like to

> live in truth and maybe someday very soon I'll be able

> to put what I know and believe to the test... in their

> presence. It does not matter anymore if they agree

> with me or not - it only matters that I believe what I

> know to be true. I think I am letting go...

that is hard for me....to let go.It hurts that they are not

approachable and I know that right now I would not be able to go

into the family group and socialize. It does not feel safe.

>

> But

> > I read about

> > this in Toxic Parents...I don't matter to them.

>

> Oh, contra're! You matter *very* much to them. You

> see, you've upset the family dynamics, brought the

> secrets to the light. Your feelings may not matter -

> but you do - big time.

I don't understand this. How can I matter (in a good way) if they

treat me this way?

>

> But

> > I matter to me.

>

> And that's all that matters...

>

> It

> > did not hurt to the point of tears or its taking up

> > all my time. It was

> > more extremely annoying and frustrating.

>

> I can't say that my sibs invalidation of me didn't

> take up space in my head - it did. It was the reason I

> wound up here. I know what that frustration is - it

> was beyond annoyance.

I don't really have the word for it. It was not grief, or anguish, or

deep sadness. I was still able to go on and have a nice party. I

genuinely appreciated the efforts everyone here went through.

When I would flash over to the siblings, I knew rationally that they

were taking the path the family always has. I have never been on

this side of the fence.

On the other hand, when my siblings have bucked the system,

I've always tried to give support to the person in pain.

>

> They do not

> > see that

> > they are perpetuating the same family system that so

> > destroyed

> > us.

>

> No they don't and there's nothing we can do change

> their minds about it.

this is true

All we can do is get ourSelves

> healthy. In Divorcare the running theme was, " The Best

> Revenge Is a Happy Life. " Not that we want revenge,

> maybe just that victory which can only be found in

> ourSelves.

still trying to figure that one out.

>

> Nada has SUCH a grip on them and she relishes

> > it.

>

> Yes, small sacrifices we are...

this is the thing that comes and slaps me. Motherhood is a

powerful force and when it is turned against me it makes me feel

" wobbly " .

>

> >

> > The latest is nada's attempt to gain sympathy and

> > access to the

> > grandkids.

>

> nada called my MIL again. Last week my daughter told

> me her (good) grandmother told her that her grandnada

> wished we could get back together, that she's getting

> old and she may not be around too long. My daughter is

> 10. I am furious, but I trust my daughter to trust and

> know me.

>

> I told my brother in law and sister that

> > unfortunately, I

> > am the door to the grandchildren.

>

> Absolutely. However, in trying to be fair and consider

> my childrens feelings and thoughts about nada, I have

> allowed them to come to their own conclusions and

> choices regarding seeing their grandnada. I allow them

> to see her when she harrasses my ex to bring them. I

> may not like it (because she is exacting her version

> authority as mother over *me*,) but so long as she

> causes no harm to them, and I am here as their guide -

> I allow them this choice. All nada's are different,

> some of them can be loving grandparents to some

> degree. However, they understand the harm she's

> inflicted on me. They understand that the harm she

> inflicts on me is not what she gives to them... and

> then again... as I say, I am here as their guide.

In my kids situation, they are not close to nada and nada loses

interest in them at about age 4.

>

> I refuse to be

> > tossed away by

> > my own mother. I should matter MORE than the

> > grandchildren to

> > my mother and I will not stand to the side and NOT

> > MATTER.

>

> Oh, contra're again. You *do* matter very much. It's

> getting to you through the grandchildren that she's

> doing. She is commanding her right to *your* children.

> As stated above, she is exacting her authority as

> matriach/mother over you. They are hers because they

> are yours. Control, control, control. " I'll get you my

> pretty... " anyway she can...

I don't understand how I matter. Because she can push me

around, is it that I matter in a negative way? Is it because she

wants to control me...but it isn't love?

>

> I

> > also reiterated that I was not going to join a

> > family where my

> > sister who has been so abused is not welcome.

>

> Absolutely, you have a right to stand by your sister

> and believe in your truths.

>

> They

> > feel guilty

> > about it, because my brother in law is hosting the

> > toxic family

> > Christmas.

>

> I'm not sure where he falls in, in regards to your

> abused sister and the guilt...

He is married to my older sister. He told me that he would rather

be shielded from the family stories, because he cannot do

anything about it. His two daughters know NOTHING about any

bad thing in the family. I told him that was his choice, and that is

why I don't email them about this. On the other hand, I told him,

silence puts a burden on the secret carrier. A huge burden, esp.

when the cast of villains is still up and about their usual

badness. Just 3 weeks ago my 35 year old sister who is newly

divorced had a cousin of nada's make a series of passes at her

at a family wedding. She reacted in the same way we did when

we were teenagers being molested. She went right into secret

mode and told me tearily yesterday. I told her to consider that

she was more important that the family image. I also told her that

this was so typical and that she would be blamed for it, but it is

not her fault. She told me she already was blamed by another

family member she confided in.

Well....I told her to consider letting the story out and staying away

as well as taking it up in therapy. I told her that it would not be

news to the matriarchs...(nada and aunty-nada) and that two

things might happen, one....they would listen to her and not invite

the uncle around when my sister was attending....or.....they

would blame her and she would feel worse. I pointed out that

this was a typical toxic type of family situation.

Kathleen

> >

> > No greetings from the other family members including

> > nada. My

> > younger sis didn't know that nada didn't greet my

> > co-banished

> > sister on her birthday 10 days ago. Nada is making

> > it seem that

> > we are boycotting her. She is such a liar.

>

> But you are boycotting her abuse and lies... aren't

> you? She's just making you the scapegoat for it by

> casting herself as the victim - they, in their trance

> have to believe her for their own fragile identities

> sake.

>

isn't that the truth.

> >

> > Today I feel angry about it.

>

> And so you should. Anger is good...

>

> >

> > More proof that I don't matter to them as a real

> > person. Only

> > inasmuch as I help to prop up the family trance.

>

> Exactly, and they will do everything possible to

> scapegoat you as the bad person - anything to protect

> the myth.

>

> Cyndie

>

Thanks Cyndie..

Kathleen

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

boy this reminds me of my book. The whole title of the book is " I didn't

matter " and that is the theme throughout the book and poem that I wrote

with the same title.

Guess I had more insight that I thought I did.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

--- thanksforthisday

> The part about

> nada gets tricky because since nada was my age she

> was

> making the boys help support the family (they were

> teenagers)

> they don't see it as inappropriate burden. I can see

> how it

> cemented the waif in their inner beings.

Yup... but it still doesn't excuse them choosing sides

against *you.* However, with this bit of understanding

you have, it's still easy to split because our initial

reaction is to be angry. I don't know about you, but

when I'm angry my initial (knee-jerk reaction) is to

split at the injustice of it all. Now that

understanding is settling in, (for the moment anyway,)

it's easier not to do this.

> that is hard for me....to let go.

It's a big one for sure. There's so much to sort

through, it doesn't happen overnight and just because

someone says so (which, to me is like invalidation, I

hate it)... and then again, just when we thought we've

let go of something, we come to find there's that one

other thing. Me thinks it's an ongoing learning

experience.

It hurts that they

> are not

> approachable and I know that right now I would not

> be able to go

> into the family group and socialize. It does not

> feel safe.

I know what this feels like too. Mind you I've been

breaking away from FOO (sibs) for the past few years,

officially this past May. Time heals all wounds and

distance gives one the opportunity to do so. Maybe

when you reach that space you'll find that you could

care less whether or not you're around them. Then

again, maybe you'll find that you're healthy enough to

be around them and you want to be around them...

whatever will be, it will be your choice, yours and

yours alone... ahhhhhhhhh.

> >

> > But

> > > I read about

> > > this in Toxic Parents...I don't matter to them.

> >

> > Oh, contra're! You matter *very* much to them. You

> > see, you've upset the family dynamics, brought the

> > secrets to the light. Your feelings may not matter

> -

> > but you do - big time.

>

> I don't understand this. How can I matter (in a good

> way) if they

> treat me this way?

I didn't say that you matter in a good way. You just

matter... as you are an integral part of the

enmeshment. Anyone who breaks away causes one to

either question or deny further... In either instance,

what you did mattered very much.

> I don't really have the word for it. It was not

> grief, or anguish, or

> deep sadness. I was still able to go on and have a

> nice party.

Maybe detachment? Understanding & knowledge helps to

detach emotionally.

I

> genuinely appreciated the efforts everyone here went

> through.

> When I would flash over to the siblings, I knew

> rationally that they

> were taking the path the family always has. I have

> never been on

> this side of the fence.

Eventually you will find that you like your own

backyard very much - in fact I think you do already.

>

> On the other hand, when my siblings have bucked the

> system,

> I've always tried to give support to the person in

> pain.

Because you have more a clue than the rest of them?

> > Yes, small sacrifices we are...

>

> this is the thing that comes and slaps me.

> Motherhood is a

> powerful force and when it is turned against me it

> makes me feel

> " wobbly " .

I've never had a close relationship w/nada and it

sounds like you may have? I know my SIL experienced a

cold dose of reality when her mother, for the first

time in 30+ years split her bad. She was devastated.

They lived *through* each other up until that time. I

don't know what this is like, to be so close, but I'd

be willing to listen if you want to share - that is of

course if you had a close relationship w/nada.

And then remember too, that with a nada it's always

about nada - what does Waynald usually say about this?

I think he has rules about it...?

The rest of the message I wanted to respond to was

truncated so I'll get back to you later...

Hugs,

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Kathleen wrote:

>>>I don't understand how I matter. Because she can

push me

around, is it that I matter in a negative way? Is it

because she

wants to control me...but it isn't love?<<<

Yup...

> I'm not sure where he falls in, in regards to your

> abused sister and the guilt...

>>>He is married to my older sister.<<<

So he's married to the older (*abused*) sister but

doesn't validate her and by denying the reality of

situation and your sisters feelings, he's still going

forward with hosting a family dysfunction palooza

party?? Is that what you're saying?

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I've never had a close relationship w/nada and it

> sounds like you may have? I know my SIL experienced a

> cold dose of reality when her mother, for the first

> time in 30+ years split her bad. She was devastated.

> They lived *through* each other up until that time. I

> don't know what this is like, to be so close, but I'd

> be willing to listen if you want to share - that is of

> course if you had a close relationship w/nada.

Naturally...when I was little I didn't know that she was a nada. It

is the nature of children to love their parents, even when the

parents are bad. She was good to me most of the time, I was

one of her pets when I was little. She never hit me until I was 7 or

8. I won't forget the day of the bamboo lashing. That hurt me so

much and hurt my belief system about her. In those days it just

became a fear of her.

She could be very nice, and she could be very rotten. Looking

back, she's always only split people. The whole family (her

siblings) operated that way. We would guess and accept that

some cousin would be on the " outs " with the family bec. of how

they would talk about the person and shut up when an ally came

into the room.

I remember some happy times, feeling like my heart would burst

with love for my mommy. But then, the burden began to get

heavy. When I was 10 my father had a nervous breakdown and

prior to hospitalization, I witnessed a lot of domestic violence

(both ways), and one night woke up to my mother calling my

name. I woke up and walked to her room to find my father

holding a twisted hanger around her neck as well as a gun to

her head. Well, I calmly patted him and got him to let me untwist

the hanger and I put the gun away and walked him to the living

room indoor fish pond and lay down with him and patted him

until he fell asleep weeping and then went to my mother and

hugged her until she stopped crying and then went to sleep

myself and then got dressed in the morning and went to school.

I just looked at that incident over the summer, when I realized my

daughter was 10. I cannot imagine every doing that to my kids. I

felt so horrible for the 10 year old Kathleen who was only a good

kid. What a burden it was for me from that time on to be my

mother's friend. And I was my father's friend too.

So I think at a young age I had the pure love of an innocent little

child. But by the time I was 10 I had total enmeshment.

I also was terribly hurt by witnessing the abuse of my sisters. I

didn't know how to cope with that, but I didn't have the courage to

confront her. I tried to pamper my sisters, but I realize now that

that was the " good " interaction after an aftermath. In the

Philippines when I was a kid, if one of the aunts witnessed one

of the beatings, she would take the kid aside and pamper the

kid...but no one called nada on it. Never.

I was doing a version of " pampering " my sisters until my sister

died. It was only after her death that I hit rock bottom and came

out of it with a big mouth but even then, I could hardly speak

about the abuse.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

>

> So he's married to the older (*abused*) sister but

> doesn't validate her and by denying the reality of

> situation and your sisters feelings, he's still going

> forward with hosting a family dysfunction palooza

> party?? Is that what you're saying?

>

> Cyndie

Yep...that is what he is doing. But he admitted that the day after

Christmas they are " escaping " to Disneyland. Said that is their

family escape. So it does bother him. He also said it was hard to

have nada living with him but he had learned to tune her out. He

also said that my sister is " doing great " and nothing bothers her.

Okey-dokey. That is what they say.

On the last big talk with that sister, she didn't want to talk about

the incest experience of my other sister (the bad split one, the

one nada discarded). She started to one-up me with incest

horror stories from her experience as an OB nurse. I told her

ANY child who is molested is worth the appropriate shock and

horror. She has an interesting defense mechanism when

uncomfortable topics surface, she starts talking about people

who had it worse.

I also retrieved a voice mail from big sister saying the " box from

Santa was on its way " with presents from nada, my cousin, and

her. Oh Ick.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Kathleen wrote:

<<

....when I was little I didn't know that she was a nada. It

is the nature of children to love their parents, even when the

parents are bad.

>>

I have no memories of loving my parents or of them loving me. No hugs,

no kisses, no nothing. Nada.

<<

She was good to me most of the time, I was

one of her pets when I was little. She never hit me until I was 7 or

8. I won't forget the day of the bamboo lashing. That hurt me so

much and hurt my belief system about her. In those days it just

became a fear of her.

>>

My earliest memory is of having been beaten unmercifully by my NPB/BPD

nada at the age of 2 1/2. I had asked her to help me with something that

I couldn't do because of my small size, but she beat me. I knew from

then on that she was never to be trusted.

<<

She could be very nice, and she could be very rotten.

>>

My nada was never 'nice' -- just always very rotten. As a child I was

her designated caregiver. I remember calling her " Mom " once -- when I

was around 7 yo. She slapped my face and I never ever tried that again.

We could only call her " Mother " .

<<

I remember some happy times, feeling like my heart would burst with love

for my mommy.

>>

Wow. I never once felt like that about my nada. I felt like that with

our dogs and cats when I was a kid. They'd lick the snot from my nose

and the tears from my eyes when she'd beat me. Our dogs and cats gave me

unconditional love. I felt like my heart would burst with love later,

for my children, but NEVER EVER, not once ever, for my witch/queen nada.

Edith