Re: Louie New Book - the Westside Barbell Book

[Guest guest]

When I competed in power lifting (primarily the bench press) I

followed the West Side method at the time. I was relatively strict

following the program - adding my own tweaks when necessary. Over a

ten year period I managed to put up some good numbers on my bench -

500+ lbs. 100% drug free. I also coached college athletes following

an adapted west side style and they also made some very good

improvements without ever feeling like they were over training.That

doesn't mean that the West Side method is the end-all-be-all of

strength training. It works for me and I have adapted it for my

ahtletes. There are aspects of the West Side method that I agree

with and teach. But I also branch out and utilize other methods as

well. Any program is effective if it can help a person reach their

goals.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Mukilteo, Washington

>

>

> When I train the Westside Barbell method I seem to over train. I

can only

> bench press once a week, deadlift once a week, and heavy squat

once a week. I

> also do a lot of assistance work such as seated rows, pulldowns,

pullups,

> seated behind neck press, rear shoulder laterals, leg extensions,

ab work,

> dips, and more.

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> ===========================

>

> In a message dated 7/13/2008 12:19:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> scwoogie@... writes:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I have been very interested in the training at West Side Barbell

for a

> very long time and have put to use some of their methods from the

> articles that Louie has written over the years.

>

> The articles have helped me put some of their concepts into my own

> training, but I recently purchased Louie's new book and now have a

> much greater understanding of the West Side Barbell system and

feel

> like I can implement it much better now.

>

> It is a great book, and would encourage those of you interested

in it

> to look into ordering it.

>

> The book is available on the westside barbell website.

>

> Link is as follows

>

> http://www.westside-barbell.com/louies_equipment_line.htm

> ================================

>

[Guest guest]

I like the way that the older generation of powerlifters and strongment

(some curretly) train. They don't train heavy maxes year round. They use a

peaking cycle in which they start lifting heavy for competitions when they have

to be the strongest and peak at the competition. Lifting heavy maxes year

round, in my experience, even if the exercises are rotated, tear up the joints

and does not allow the body to recover properly.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

==============================

In a message dated 7/15/2008 12:42:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

igrus@... writes:

I am also curious as to what one (You, or anyone else for that matter) would

recommend for the Anti-Westside lifter (Based on your description)

==============================

[Guest guest]

If you watch the westside barbell videos; the training regimine is

explained. The " rest days " are actually workout days where they concentrate on

things

other than bench press, squat, deadlift - using these " rest days " to

strength other parts of the body to make the core lifts stronger.

I have spoken with lifters at westside and even Louis once; the

misconception is that the average powerlifting usa reader things that the

westside method is four workouts a week - upper body twice, lower body twice.

It

is, but there is also a lot more assistance and other body work that is done

that really doesn't get a lot of " press " .

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

================================

In a message dated 7/15/2008 11:53:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

deadliftdiva@... writes:

The principles are using overloads a good percentage of the time and Dave

Tate told me they actually do up to 9 workouts a week. Some workouts might be

quite small, one exercise to extreme fatigue. Others might be a single rep

max of say, a chain supported good morning.

=========================

[Guest guest]

Ok I really didn't want to throw this out there, but there's three things you

really need to succeed on the full Westside program and they do admit this by

the way. One. Steroids. Two. Equipment - shirts, suits, groove briefs, etc,

in training. Three. A good build for squat and bench, short levers and short

lockouts, the program does not generally support those whose best lift is the

deadlift.

The principles are using overloads a good percentage of the time and Dave Tate

told me they actually do up to 9 workouts a week. Some workouts might be quite

small, one exercise to extreme fatigue. Others might be a single rep max of

say, a chain supported good morning.

They rarely deadlifted until that was finally a capitulation of sorts not long

ago, that there might actually be form in the deadlift <grin>. Never mind that

it does help your squat and bench as well lol..

The people at Westside tend generally to lift in feds that do not drug test and

allow pretty much anything you can put on your body and stagger to a platform

with, as well as feds that do not GENERALLY have rules like breaking parallel in

the squat enforced.

Given all this in the performance of the lifts, Westside methods work well with

their users and their federation of choice for competition. However, they also

quietly tell you they broke down a lot of people and every time they make a new

change, somebody seems to get hurt and quietly go away.

For every openly hugely successful lifter they turn out, some go quietly away

with injuries and do not show up again.

It's possible to do the Westside more or less unmodified for the bench only - I

believe the biggest problem is trying to follow an unaltered program for the

full meet for the veteran drug free athlete. If you aren't already maxed out as

a lifter, e.g. someone with several years under your belt, you will gain on

almost any program as long as you don't overtrain...and Westside methods are

good especially for those trying to get the hang of using a bench shirt

properly.

Please realize this is NOT a " condemnation " of Westside, far from it. I've used

a modified version myself at times. The biggest problems are that it's

overtraining if you aren't literally on steroids, because of the way the program

hits high levels and stays there, and it's a headache too for the raw athlete.

Look too at the builds of many at Westside - they aren't terribly tall overall,

and quite stoutly built, engaging the " power gut " in some of them too. Mostly

optimal builds for the squat and bench, and these are the lifts they tend to

focus on AND succeed best with. There are exceptions.

Yes, I've met some Westside people, including Dave Tate. I might even still be

on one of the seminar videos lol. We even talked about the reality of that

extra wide Westside squat being really not usable for the IPF depth

requirements, things like that.

Dave also said that the program is not a fixed thing, you're getting a snapshot

based on their latest iteration, as things change and some people get hurt doing

certain things, they take them out or modify them. So please take this all into

consideration and consult their site for updates and tweaks, ask them questions

and recognize no program suits all, and this one is a bit extreme if you have a

weak spot...you will assuredly find it!

Anyway try it if you like, some do well on the bands in particular, others

suffer losses to their benches...I know one in particular drug free master who

was actually disgusted to find his bench went down from 425 to 365 and the 365

was a difficult piece after a few months using Westside bands and their program.

Your mileage will vary though on any program, and the best way to use Westside

IMHO is to choose what you find helpful and not follow the rest, particularly

for the drug free and raw athlete.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, lifetime drugfree master/open competing

powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

When I competed in power lifting (primarily the bench press) I

followed the West Side method at the time. I was relatively strict

following the program - adding my own tweaks when necessary. Over a

ten year period I managed to put up some good numbers on my bench -

500+ lbs. 100% drug free. I also coached college athletes following

an adapted west side style and they also made some very good

improvements without ever feeling like they were over training.That

doesn't mean that the West Side method is the end-all-be-all of

strength training. It works for me and I have adapted it for my

ahtletes. There are aspects of the West Side method that I agree

with and teach. But I also branch out and utilize other methods as

well. Any program is effective if it can help a person reach their

goals.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Mukilteo, Washington

>

>

> When I train the Westside Barbell method I seem to over train. I

can only

> bench press once a week, deadlift once a week, and heavy squat

once a week. I

> also do a lot of assistance work such as seated rows, pulldowns,

pullups,

> seated behind neck press, rear shoulder laterals, leg extensions,

ab work,

> dips, and more.

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> ===========================

>

> In a message dated 7/13/2008 12:19:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> scwoogie@... writes:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I have been very interested in the training at West Side Barbell

for a

> very long time and have put to use some of their methods from the

> articles that Louie has written over the years.

>

> The articles have helped me put some of their concepts into my own

> training, but I recently purchased Louie's new book and now have a

> much greater understanding of the West Side Barbell system and

feel

> like I can implement it much better now.

>

> It is a great book, and would encourage those of you interested

in it

> to look into ordering it.

>

> The book is available on the westside barbell website.

>

> Link is as follows

>

> http://www.westside-barbell.com/louies_equipment_line.htm

> ================================

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for that refreshingly honest assessment of the " Legendary " Westside

system.

I often wondered how this methodology would transfer to a " Normal Humans " , I am

50, lifetime drug-free, Raw, and have endured five knee surgeries. I just

started to train for a Mendelson's meet here on Long Island on Sept. 13th

and am running a straight cycle , I suppose Western Periodization is what some

would call it, but am quite curious how Westside would suit me off season, if at

all. I did buy the book, I buy just about everything written on strength

training, and hope to learn something from it I can use

I am also curious as to what one (You, or anyone else for that matter) would

recommend for the Anti-Westside lifter (Based on your description)

I also smile as you describe the " Westside " lifter, as I have RARELY seen one

come even close to depth on the Squat, much less break it, massive struggles on

openers and often buried on second lifts also seem common, and the huge amount

of injuries, often catastrophic. Perhaps due to staggering drug use, Who knows?,

Maybe the human body, which could never lift these weights without the insane

equipment technology and drugs is finally saying " Uncle "

This might be unfair, as many lifters who claim to be Westside adherents are not

actually trained at Westside.

Color me curious

Robbie Stark

town N.Y.

====================================

Re: Louie New Book - the Westside Barbell

Book

Ok I really didn't want to throw this out there, but there's three things you

really need to succeed on the full Westside program and they do admit this by

the way. One. Steroids. Two. Equipment - shirts, suits, groove briefs, etc, in

training. Three. A good build for squat and bench, short levers and short

lockouts, the program does not generally support those whose best lift is the

deadlift.

The principles are using overloads a good percentage of the time and Dave Tate

told me they actually do up to 9 workouts a week. Some workouts might be quite

small, one exercise to extreme fatigue. Others might be a single rep max of say,

a chain supported good morning.

They rarely deadlifted until that was finally a capitulation of sorts not long

ago, that there might actually be form in the deadlift <grin>. Never mind that

it does help your squat and bench as well lol..

The people at Westside tend generally to lift in feds that do not drug test

and allow pretty much anything you can put on your body and stagger to a

platform with, as well as feds that do not GENERALLY have rules like breaking

parallel in the squat enforced.

Given all this in the performance of the lifts, Westside methods work well

with their users and their federation of choice for competition. However, they

also quietly tell you they broke down a lot of people and every time they make a

new change, somebody seems to get hurt and quietly go away.

For every openly hugely successful lifter they turn out, some go quietly away

with injuries and do not show up again.

It's possible to do the Westside more or less unmodified for the bench only -

I believe the biggest problem is trying to follow an unaltered program for the

full meet for the veteran drug free athlete. If you aren't already maxed out as

a lifter, e.g. someone with several years under your belt, you will gain on

almost any program as long as you don't overtrain...and Westside methods are

good especially for those trying to get the hang of using a bench shirt

properly.

Please realize this is NOT a " condemnation " of Westside, far from it. I've

used a modified version myself at times. The biggest problems are that it's

overtraining if you aren't literally on steroids, because of the way the program

hits high levels and stays there, and it's a headache too for the raw athlete.

Look too at the builds of many at Westside - they aren't terribly tall overall,

and quite stoutly built, engaging the " power gut " in some of them too. Mostly

optimal builds for the squat and bench, and these are the lifts they tend to

focus on AND succeed best with. There are exceptions.

Yes, I've met some Westside people, including Dave Tate. I might even still be

on one of the seminar videos lol. We even talked about the reality of that extra

wide Westside squat being really not usable for the IPF depth requirements,

things like that.

Dave also said that the program is not a fixed thing, you're getting a

snapshot based on their latest iteration, as things change and some people get

hurt doing certain things, they take them out or modify them. So please take

this all into consideration and consult their site for updates and tweaks, ask

them questions and recognize no program suits all, and this one is a bit extreme

if you have a weak spot...you will assuredly find it!

Anyway try it if you like, some do well on the bands in particular, others

suffer losses to their benches...I know one in particular drug free master who

was actually disgusted to find his bench went down from 425 to 365 and the 365

was a difficult piece after a few months using Westside bands and their program.

Your mileage will vary though on any program, and the best way to use Westside

IMHO is to choose what you find helpful and not follow the rest, particularly

for the drug free and raw athlete.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, lifetime drugfree master/open competing

powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

When I competed in power lifting (primarily the bench press) I

followed the West Side method at the time. I was relatively strict

following the program - adding my own tweaks when necessary. Over a

ten year period I managed to put up some good numbers on my bench -

500+ lbs. 100% drug free. I also coached college athletes following

an adapted west side style and they also made some very good

improvements without ever feeling like they were over training.That

doesn't mean that the West Side method is the end-all-be-all of

strength training. It works for me and I have adapted it for my

ahtletes. There are aspects of the West Side method that I agree

with and teach. But I also branch out and utilize other methods as

well. Any program is effective if it can help a person reach their

goals.

Casey Gallagher CSCS

Mukilteo, Washington

>

>

> When I train the Westside Barbell method I seem to over train. I

can only

> bench press once a week, deadlift once a week, and heavy squat

once a week. I

> also do a lot of assistance work such as seated rows, pulldowns,

pullups,

> seated behind neck press, rear shoulder laterals, leg extensions,

ab work,

> dips, and more.

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> ===========================

>

> In a message dated 7/13/2008 12:19:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> scwoogie@... writes:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I have been very interested in the training at West Side Barbell

for a

> very long time and have put to use some of their methods from the

> articles that Louie has written over the years.

>

> The articles have helped me put some of their concepts into my own

> training, but I recently purchased Louie's new book and now have a

> much greater understanding of the West Side Barbell system and

feel

> like I can implement it much better now.

>

> It is a great book, and would encourage those of you interested

in it

> to look into ordering it.

>

> The book is available on the westside barbell website.

>

> Link is as follows

>

> http://www.westside-barbell.com/louies_equipment_line.htm

> ================================

>

[Guest guest]

I agree. Doing the same exercises week after week with the same

routines leads to repetitive stress injuries.

I am 100% lifetime drug free; the amount of heavy work that Westside does

leads me to overtrain. I can't train with maximum intensity on every exercise,

every workout. My body does need light and medium workouts also.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

========================

In a message dated 7/16/2008 8:58:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

EWHITE@... writes:

The great thing about Westside and it's hybrids is its adaptability to the

individual. In the case where one finds themselves overtraining try changing

exercises more frequently, using the repetition method on max effort days

instead of working to a max single or triple, take a weak off when you need it

and do not forget to down load. Elite Fitness can expound on these simple

points to a much greater degree than I and I recommend you got there and look

at all the articles and everything written by their numerous authors. This

system is much more complex and at the same time much more simple than people

understand until they have used it, studied it and applied it to themselves

and their athletes.

===========================

[Guest guest]

Edwin, I think you have misinterpreted several things about Westside.

First you do not use 100% intensity of every exercise every week. There

are typically 4 main barbell workouts and only one exercise in only two

of the four workout would someone train to a 3RM or 1RM. And then many

times this would only be done 3 out of 4 weeks as the 4th week would be

a deload where no exercises would be using a very high load. On the

other 2 days the dynamic method is practiced where the goal is to

produce maximum force by using weights in the 60% to70% range (these are

the rough percents for raw lifters) for only a few reps and several

sets. This dynamic method only applies to one exercise on each of those

two days. All the other exercises are usually done with moderate reps.

It's not uncommon for each of these training sessions to last only 45

minutes. With a little adjustment there's no reason why someone would

get overtrained on these.

While they do some extra workouts this is not something they recommend

for a new person. You would need to gradually build up over time. Plus

these extra workouts can be very gentle. It could be as simple as a few

set of abs and a little band work for the triceps at super high reps to

enhance recovery.

As Eddie states Westside is really quite a robust set of principles. I

feel one of the keys of it is being able to find what your weaknesses

are and what exercises you need to do to improve them. Almost no

exercises are actually prescribed by Westside. They discuss dozens of

options but it's up to the lifter and his coaches to figure out which

exercises would be most beneficial and then paying attention to your

body.

Doug Schurman

Seattle USA

===============================

Re: Louie New Book - the Westside

Barbell Book

I agree. Doing the same exercises week after week with the same

routines leads to repetitive stress injuries.

I am 100% lifetime drug free; the amount of heavy work that Westside

does

leads me to overtrain. I can't train with maximum intensity on every

exercise,

every workout. My body does need light and medium workouts also.

==========================

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth:

I've been using Westside methods for 4 years at the high school level and a

modified in-season program based on the Westside template with professional

hockey players for 3 years.  We have had great success with it at both levels. 

The emphasis on heavier lifts helps develop strength and sport specific

power(through CNS adaptations) The rotating of exercises and the periodic

deloading helps to avoid overtraining.  I have never had anyone with

overtraining issues while on the program.  In fact, the emphasis on posterior

chain has been ideal for hockey players, who tend to have knee tendonitis issues

from the skating position and too much emphasis on plyos(ridiculous volumes) and

olympic lifts. Further, the combination of max effort, dynamic and repeated

efforts is ideal for the training  of younger(15-21 year old) athletes. 

As I've said before- we all take everything we read and are exposed to,

synthesize it and put it in a package that works for our athletes in our

facilities.  While a strict Westside template may not work for everyone.  There

are elements of the program that anyone training athletes should be using. 

Mark

Syracuse, NY USA

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone,

I've been lucky enough to train at Westside all be it

only for 3 weeks in total.

The Westside system, as the majority know, is max

effort, dynamic effort, and repartition method types

of training. Within that certain tools are used,

accommodating resistance for example.

I really can't see how that would equate to

overtraining unless the trainee is very inexperienced.

I, like some others on this list am a life time drug

free, unequipped lifter. When I use the Westside

system I adapt it for myself, as in I identify my

weaknesses and will set up max effort cycles and

assistance exercises so I can theoretically progress.

I am not going to do a max effort cycle designed for

someone squatting in triple ply suits; it's lots of

low box squats, paused squats, and bottom up squats

because that's where I need it.

Whatever system you decide to try it has to be tweaked

for you; in powerlifting or any other sport it's

unlikely that any one size fits all system will work

that well.

Hope that was of help.?

Young

London, UK

--- Robbie wrote:

> Thank you for that refreshingly honest assessment of

> the " Legendary " Westside system.

>

> I often wondered how this methodology would transfer

> to a " Normal Humans " , I am 50, lifetime drug-free,

> Raw, and have endured five knee surgeries. I just

> started to train for a Mendelson's meet here on

> Long Island on Sept. 13th and am running a straight

> cycle , I suppose Western Periodization is what some

> would call it, but am quite curious how Westside

> would suit me off season, if at all. I did buy the

> book, I buy just about everything written on

> strength training, and hope to learn something from

> it I can use

>

> I am also curious as to what one (You, or anyone

> else for that matter) would recommend for the

> Anti-Westside lifter (Based on your description)

> I also smile as you describe the " Westside " lifter,

> as I have RARELY seen one come even close to depth

> on the Squat, much less break it, massive struggles

> on openers and often buried on second lifts also

> seem common, and the huge amount of injuries, often

> catastrophic. Perhaps due to staggering drug use,

> Who knows?, Maybe the human body, which could never

> lift these weights without the insane equipment

> technology and drugs is finally saying " Uncle "

>

> This might be unfair, as many lifters who claim to

> be Westside adherents are not actually trained at

> Westside.

>

> Color me curious

>

> Robbie Stark

> town N.Y.

>

> ====================================

>

> Re: Louie New

> Book - the Westside Barbell Book

>

>

> Ok I really didn't want to throw this out there,

> but there's three things you really need to succeed

> on the full Westside program and they do admit this

> by the way. One. Steroids. Two. Equipment - shirts,

> suits, groove briefs, etc, in training. Three. A

> good build for squat and bench, short levers and

> short lockouts, the program does not generally

> support those whose best lift is the deadlift.

>

> The principles are using overloads a good

> percentage of the time and Dave Tate told me they

> actually do up to 9 workouts a week. Some workouts

> might be quite small, one exercise to extreme

> fatigue. Others might be a single rep max of say, a

> chain supported good morning.

>

> They rarely deadlifted until that was finally a

> capitulation of sorts not long ago, that there might

> actually be form in the deadlift <grin>. Never mind

> that it does help your squat and bench as well lol..

>

> The people at Westside tend generally to lift in

> feds that do not drug test and allow pretty much

> anything you can put on your body and stagger to a

> platform with, as well as feds that do not GENERALLY

> have rules like breaking parallel in the squat

> enforced.

>

> Given all this in the performance of the lifts,

> Westside methods work well with their users and

> their federation of choice for competition. However,

> they also quietly tell you they broke down a lot of

> people and every time they make a new change,

> somebody seems to get hurt and quietly go away.

>

> For every openly hugely successful lifter they

> turn out, some go quietly away with injuries and do

> not show up again.

>

> It's possible to do the Westside more or less

> unmodified for the bench only - I believe the

> biggest problem is trying to follow an unaltered

> program for the full meet for the veteran drug free

> athlete. If you aren't already maxed out as a

> lifter, e.g. someone with several years under your

> belt, you will gain on almost any program as long as

> you don't overtrain...and Westside methods are good

> especially for those trying to get the hang of using

> a bench shirt properly.

>

> Please realize this is NOT a " condemnation " of

> Westside, far from it. I've used a modified version

> myself at times. The biggest problems are that it's

> overtraining if you aren't literally on steroids,

> because of the way the program hits high levels and

> stays there, and it's a headache too for the raw

> athlete. Look too at the builds of many at Westside

> - they aren't terribly tall overall, and quite

> stoutly built, engaging the " power gut " in some of

> them too. Mostly optimal builds for the squat and

> bench, and these are the lifts they tend to focus on

> AND succeed best with. There are exceptions.

>

> Yes, I've met some Westside people, including Dave

> Tate. I might even still be on one of the seminar

> videos lol. We even talked about the reality of that

> extra wide Westside squat being really not usable

> for the IPF depth requirements, things like that.

>

> Dave also said that the program is not a fixed

> thing, you're getting a snapshot based on their

> latest iteration, as things change and some people

> get hurt doing certain things, they take them out or

> modify them. So please take this all into

> consideration and consult their site for updates and

> tweaks, ask them questions and recognize no program

> suits all, and this one is a bit extreme if you have

> a weak spot...you will assuredly find it!

>

> Anyway try it if you like, some do well on the

> bands in particular, others suffer losses to their

> benches...I know one in particular drug free master

> who was actually disgusted to find his bench went

> down from 425 to 365 and the 365 was a difficult

> piece after a few months using Westside bands and

> their program. Your mileage will vary though on any

> program, and the best way to use Westside IMHO is to

> choose what you find helpful and not follow the

> rest, particularly for the drug free and raw

> athlete.

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, lifetime drugfree

> master/open competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA