Low testosterone is the susceptibility, not the cause

[Guest guest]

The website http://www.ssri-side-effects.com states that low

testosterone is the most likely cause of PSSD, and I assume

that most people here believe that. That was the conclusion

made due to the observed correlation between PSSD and low

testosterone.

Correlation does not mean a specific causality. SSRIs do not

reduce testosterone. Therefore, people that have low testosterone

BEFORE taking SSRIs are at much greater risk of getting PSSD.

That is why only a fraction of people that take SSRIs get PSSD.

From that, one can make a theory about the cause of PSSD.

Testosterone is certainly related to sex. My theory of the cause

of PSSD is this (in quotes):

" Physical sexual pleasure is caused by endomorphin, which binds

to the mu opioid receptors in the septum (which is adjacent to the

hypothalamus, on the anterior dorsal border of the hypothalamus).

Testosterone increases the development of afferent (i.e. 'leading to

the brain') serotoninergic neurons. Those serotoninergic neurons

are in the afferent neural pathway between the receptors in the

genitals and the septum, being either in the peripheral nerves or

in the brain, such that those serotoninergic neurons stimulate

endomorphin-producing neurons to release endomorphin in the

septum.

SSRIs chronicly deplete serotonin from the serotoninergic neurons.

If a person has high testosterone, then their serotoninergic neurons

are robust enough to handle some depletion. If a person has low

testosterone, then their serotoninergic neurons can not handle the

depletion, and the result is that toxic chemicals, particularly

nitric oxide (NO), build up in the neurons and kill them. As a

result, the afferent nerve pathway from the genitals to the septum

is destroyed. "

Since the people that are the most vulnerable to PSSD are people

with low testosterone, one should place larger emphasis on

warning low-testosterone individuals. There are many demographic

groups that have lower testosterone on average. The most obvious

low-testosterone groups are introverts, atheists, and science fiction

and fantasy aficionados.

[Guest guest]

PSSD is probably caused by a combination of things, not just low

testosterone. Serotonin is involved in almost every biochemical

pathway you can think of. But SSRIs do dramatically lower testosterone

levels:

-http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " fine_clarity " wrote:

>

> The website http://www.ssri-side-effects.com states that low

> testosterone is the most likely cause of PSSD, and I assume

> that most people here believe that. That was the conclusion

> made due to the observed correlation between PSSD and low

> testosterone.

>

> Correlation does not mean a specific causality. SSRIs do not

> reduce testosterone.

[Guest guest]

But how many here have low testosterone levels? The testosterone

issue is overused. How many young men have little to know to

testosterone.

I am not sold on it being PSSD either I think we have depressive

illnesses.

> >

> > The website http://www.ssri-side-effects.com states that low

> > testosterone is the most likely cause of PSSD, and I assume

> > that most people here believe that. That was the conclusion

> > made due to the observed correlation between PSSD and low

> > testosterone.

> >

> > Correlation does not mean a specific causality. SSRIs do not

> > reduce testosterone.

>

[Guest guest]

Quite a lot of people in the group have or had low testosterone

levels. But it's not just what the levels are at after you quit the

drugs; you also have to consider that they may have been very low for

the whole time you were on them. That can have long-term

consequences whether your T levels bounce back or not.

Having low T for long periods can mess up the dopamine system in the

brain. And SSRIs can cause disturbances in dopamine and other

neurotransmitters directly. So PSSD is probably a pretty complicated

syndrome.

And you are just plain wrong that this is caused by depression.

ly, that's bullshit.

Vornan

> > >

> > > The website http://www.ssri-side-effects.com states that low

> > > testosterone is the most likely cause of PSSD, and I assume

> > > that most people here believe that. That was the conclusion

> > > made due to the observed correlation between PSSD and low

> > > testosterone.

> > >

> > > Correlation does not mean a specific causality. SSRIs do not

> > > reduce testosterone.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Most people on the site seem to have what are termed " normal "

testosterone readings from what I have read: mine for instance was

about 450 last time it was checked. Still, for a former athlete that

works out every day you would figure it would be higher than that

figure, probably close to the mean of the range which would be somewhere

around 650. I have mentioned it before but my urologist has actually

acknowledged the phenomenon of PSSD.

gwb_cross_eyed_walmart_greeter wrote:

> But how many here have low testosterone levels? The testosterone

> issue is overused. How many young men have little to know to

> testosterone.

>

> I am not sold on it being PSSD either I think we have depressive

> illnesses.

>

>

> > >

> > > The website http://www.ssri-side-effects.com

> <http://www.ssri-side-effects.com> states that low

> > > testosterone is the most likely cause of PSSD, and I assume

> > > that most people here believe that. That was the conclusion

> > > made due to the observed correlation between PSSD and low

> > > testosterone.

> > >

> > > Correlation does not mean a specific causality. SSRIs do not

> > > reduce testosterone.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

> But SSRIs do dramatically lower testosterone

> levels:

>

> -http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm

>

> Vornan

>

I had already seen that article. That article only proves

the strong correlation between low testosterone and PSSD.

It does not prove that SSRIs lower testosterone, because

it does not mention the testosterone levels of the people

BEFORE they started taking the SSRIs, for comparison.

The study states that testosterone levels rose after the

subjects' depression ceased and they stopped taking the

SSRIs, but depression itself causes temporarily-lowered

testosterone, so the rise in testosterone can be the result

of the end of depression.

Many people have never taken SSRIs in the past, but

plan to start taking them. We should solicit such people

to test their testosterone levels before they start taking

the SSRIs for the first time, preferably at some time that

they are not particularly depressed (so as to determine their

usual testosterone levels), and then test their levels again

after they have been taking SSRIs for a few months, and are

about equally as depressed as they were during the first test.

Also, not everyone takes SSRIs for depression, so that

experiment can be used on people that take SSRIs for

anxiety or obsessive-compulsive disorder, though those

disorders can cause depression as a side-effect.

Only then will the experimental results conclusively show if

SSRIs lower testosterone, or cause PSSD to people that have

low testosterone to begin with. I don't know of any direct

experimental proof that SSRIs lower testosterone, and I think

that that would have been discovered by now and become

common knowledge in the psychiatry community if it did,

so I think that the result will be the latter.

[Guest guest]

No, I don't really feel like getting into a long, detailed argument over this because I'm supposed to be taking a break from posting, but SSRIs do lower testosterone levels (and increase prolactin) and wreak havok with the reproductive system. A lot of the data is still unpublished.

Besides Alan Cohen's paper, other prospective studies were done by Anita Clayton, who has done some work on SSRI sexual side effects. But she hasn't published the results yet (if she ever will - not good PR since she's funded by the drug companies).

Also there is a case report of lowered testosterone caused by effexor in the Files section of this site. They measured the guy's T levels on and off the drug and there was a very clear correlation.

BTW, this may or may not be connected to low T, but you will also find a scientific paper there documenting dramtically lowered sperm counts for guys on SSRIs. The news story about it is here:

http://ahrp.blogspot.com/2007/01/antidepressants-may-make-men-infertile.html

There is also some unpublished evidence that SSRIs damage sperm DNA.

http://wsunews.wsu.edu/detail.asp?StoryID=3497

Vornan

>> > But SSRIs do dramatically lower testosterone > > levels:> > > > -http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm> > > > Vornan> > > > > I had already seen that article. That article only proves> the strong correlation between low testosterone and PSSD.> It does not prove that SSRIs lower testosterone, because> it does not mention the testosterone levels of the people> BEFORE they started taking the SSRIs, for comparison.> The study states that testosterone levels rose after the> subjects' depression ceased and they stopped taking the> SSRIs, but depression itself causes temporarily-lowered> testosterone, so the rise in testosterone can be the result> of the end of depression.> > Many people have never taken SSRIs in the past, but> plan to start taking them. We should solicit such people> to test their testosterone levels before they start taking> the SSRIs for the first time, preferably at some time that> they are not particularly depressed (so as to determine their> usual testosterone levels), and then test their levels again> after they have been taking SSRIs for a few months, and are> about equally as depressed as they were during the first test.> Also, not everyone takes SSRIs for depression, so that> experiment can be used on people that take SSRIs for> anxiety or obsessive-compulsive disorder, though those> disorders can cause depression as a side-effect.> Only then will the experimental results conclusively show if> SSRIs lower testosterone, or cause PSSD to people that have> low testosterone to begin with. I don't know of any direct> experimental proof that SSRIs lower testosterone, and I think> that that would have been discovered by now and become> common knowledge in the psychiatry community if it did,> so I think that the result will be the latter.>

[Guest guest]

I made an error. I stated:

> The study states that testosterone levels rose after the

> subjects' depression ceased and they stopped taking the

> SSRIs,

That was actually a reference to an earlier study on depression

(1991, Steiger et al). The article did not even mention what type(s)

of antidepressants that study used.

Another possibility is that SSRIs do significantly lower

testosterone, but that individuals that have high testosterone to

begin with can sustain that change, whereas individuals that have

low testosterone to begin with can not. Like my previous theory,

that would likewise explain why only a fraction of people that take

SSRIs get PSSD.

[Guest guest]

That would make more sense. Although I would bet any money that even

if you started out with a very high testosterone level, if you stayed

on SSRIs long enough, they would ventually drop into the pathological

range. I think I started out with pretty high T levels, but because I

stayed on celexa for two years, it eventually got to me. I developed

the sexual side effects so slowly they were almost imperceptible. Kind

of like the boiling frog analogy. But by the time I realized I had a

problem it was too late. Probably same for quite a few other people on

this site.

Vornan

> Another possibility is that SSRIs do significantly lower

> testosterone, but that individuals that have high testosterone to

> begin with can sustain that change, whereas individuals that have

> low testosterone to begin with can not. Like my previous theory,

> that would likewise explain why only a fraction of people that take

> SSRIs get PSSD.

[Guest guest]

With respect to your concluding statement....do we really have any

data to suggest that only a fraction of SSRI users actually develop

PSSD. While I was on Lexapro...the changes in my libido and sexual

perfomance were very insideous....but over time it was obvious that

my libido was heading toward zero. However, it was only after I was

lucky enough to find this web site that I was educated about the PSSD

symptoms.....otherwise I would have surmized that all these changes

in sexuality and blunted feelings were due to aging and the return of

depression....What is so pitiful is that these effects were known as

early as 1998.....and the pharmacuetical companies and the watchdog

FDA simply ignored what may turn out to be one of the most outrageous

derelictions of duty in the history of medicine.....no telling what

other maladies in young adults and new born babies will be attributed

to SSRI's in subsequent years as research scientists fully document

the side effects.....

>

> I made an error. I stated:

>

> > The study states that testosterone levels rose after the

> > subjects' depression ceased and they stopped taking the

> > SSRIs,

>

> That was actually a reference to an earlier study on depression

> (1991, Steiger et al). The article did not even mention what type(s)

> of antidepressants that study used.

>

>

> Another possibility is that SSRIs do significantly lower

> testosterone, but that individuals that have high testosterone to

> begin with can sustain that change, whereas individuals that have

> low testosterone to begin with can not. Like my previous theory,

> that would likewise explain why only a fraction of people that take

> SSRIs get PSSD.

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree. Good suggestion.

I understand that boosting testosterone in some way (there are several options)

can to an

extent revigorate sexuality.

Perhaps it can also do some rewiring during that process during perhaps some of

the

sensitivity of the system is recovered. The sensitivity (in particular

non-tactile sensitivity)

is in my opinion laregly an issue of the wiring of the Dopamine circuits. In

myself these

circuits do get activated when I am challenged to perform professionally.

J

>

> > But SSRIs do dramatically lower testosterone

> > levels:

> >

> > -http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm

> >

> > Vornan

> >

>

>

> I had already seen that article. That article only proves

> the strong correlation between low testosterone and PSSD.

> It does not prove that SSRIs lower testosterone, because

> it does not mention the testosterone levels of the people

> BEFORE they started taking the SSRIs, for comparison.

> The study states that testosterone levels rose after the

> subjects' depression ceased and they stopped taking the

> SSRIs, but depression itself causes temporarily-lowered

> testosterone, so the rise in testosterone can be the result

> of the end of depression.

>

> Many people have never taken SSRIs in the past, but

> plan to start taking them. We should solicit such people

> to test their testosterone levels before they start taking

> the SSRIs for the first time, preferably at some time that

> they are not particularly depressed (so as to determine their

> usual testosterone levels), and then test their levels again

> after they have been taking SSRIs for a few months, and are

> about equally as depressed as they were during the first test.

> Also, not everyone takes SSRIs for depression, so that

> experiment can be used on people that take SSRIs for

> anxiety or obsessive-compulsive disorder, though those

> disorders can cause depression as a side-effect.

> Only then will the experimental results conclusively show if

> SSRIs lower testosterone, or cause PSSD to people that have

> low testosterone to begin with. I don't know of any direct

> experimental proof that SSRIs lower testosterone, and I think

> that that would have been discovered by now and become

> common knowledge in the psychiatry community if it did,

> so I think that the result will be the latter.

>