Re: behavior- pleasing verses annoying

[Guest guest]

Thanks Louise, great post you made a lot of sense and so organized too, so

easy to follow. I wish I had your talent for writing. :-)

yep I do understand that some things we might have to repeat over and over

and some things they may or may not get or may get later. But I guess what I

am looking for is how to show them what something means. Just telling her to

stop whining doesn't help because she doesn't know what whining means.

Telling her no cry isn't good because there are times when it is ok to cry.

Telling her it's not funny when someone gets hurt doesn't cut it either. She

doesn't seem to understand that other people feel pain just like she does.

That

is what is so hard. Speaking of pain, on Monday she ran into the corner

cabinet hard enough to break blood on her thigh and didn't even wince, I got a

bandaid and put on the cut and asked her if it hurt and she looked at the

bandaid and went ouch and then laughed. When she is sick the first thing I am

asked is does she have pain, well how would I know! If I go by how I would

feel

then I would say yes but she seems to have a higher tolerance than I do.

When she is whining and I don't have a clue I'm asked why does she do that.

Yesterday when someone asked me that question I just looked at them and asked

" do I look like a mind reader to you? " I know that was rude but geez it's

hard enough dealing with a child who has a legitimate disability and then

dealing with an adult who just seems to chose not to use the common sense they

were

given. Sorry for the rant. :-)

The inappropriate laughing I can deal with, but it's the whining especially

when I don't know why she is whining that gets to me, can you tell. :-) I

just don't like whining and while it was an issue with my typical son it

didn't last long and he understood when I told him to stop. Trisha doesn't.

:-(

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

<<I'd be very interested in hearing how everyone deals with this situation and

what you have found to work or not work. >>

Absolutely nothing!

I hope you get some good answers on this for me too!

Sherry

[Guest guest]

Carol: If you find the answer, please let us know!!!! Tori does not

understand either.

Liz

behavior- pleasing verses annoying

I've been wondering how to get Trisha to understand when she is doing

something (whining or rewinding over and well you get the point) that is

annoying.

I have noticed that she seems to want at times to please people and loves

it

when she gets praise or claps etc. but she doesn't seem to comprehend when

she is annoying or bothering someone. How do you explain or teach them

what

annoying or bothersome means and where the line is drawn from being ok to

becoming annoying? I don't think she can read the body language very well

other

than when you smile and give praises or she is imitating and so when you

smile and give praises she smiles back and repeats what she was doing to

get the

smile and the same goes for when she becomes annoying and you become upset

then she imitates that as well. That is only my theory but in watching

Trisha

it makes sense. She doesn't seem to understand that it's her behavior that

is upsetting whoever is caring for her at the time. I don't think she can

empathize. How do you teach that? We work on emotions and we have the

symbols

printed out and we encourage her to tell us how she feels but I don't think

it means anything more to her than just another task. It's part of our

daily

life skills to be able to gage another person's reactions so we know our

boundries and hopefully avoid conflict and hurt feelings etc. I don't think

a

social story is the answer on this one because she first has to learn how

to

empathize before she can learn how to use it socially. I'm wondering if

there

have been any videos with role playing that teaches body language and

empathizing on a level our children might understand?

I'd be very interested in hearing how everyone deals with this situation

and

what you have found to work or not work.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

Carol, this is a loaded question but I will give it a shot.

Carol: She doesn't seem to comprehend when she is annoying or bothering

someone. How do you explain or teach them what annoying or bothersome

means and where the line is drawn from being ok to becoming annoying?

Louise: I am not sure that we can get some concepts across. With

at age 43 I am constantly commenting/signing to him as the opportunity

arises, “stop bother”, “what say?”, “please”, “thank you”, “sorry”.

Carol: I don't think she can read the body language very well.

Louise: Barbara Doyle said in ’s evaluation – “He does not seem to

read the non-verbal cues of others, which is usually a high skill area

in people who are deaf, even when they have some cognitive impairment.”

Carol: She doesn't seem to understand that it's her behavior that is

upsetting whoever is caring for her at the time. I don't think she can

empathize. How do you teach that?

Louise: has a certain empathy that surprises us at times when he

is very sensitive if someone is upset over something. But, overall he

does not read a person and I am not sure you can teach this. It is a

consistent repetition of whatever you want to teach, some times along

the way it sinks in, other times it doesn’t and so we keep repeating it.

Carol: We work on emotions and we have the symbols printed out and we

encourage her to tell us how she feels but I don't think it means

anything more to her than just another task.

Louise: We have gone though working with to teach him emotions

using the face pictures. That too just doesn’t seem to sink in and so

we stopped having it put in his service plan.

Carol: I'm wondering if there have been any videos with role playing

that teaches body language and empathizing on a level our children might

understand?

Louise: We have discussed in past posts about making videos of the

person to teach them how to do certain things or how to act in certain

situations. I attended an ARC conference where Dave Hingsburger from

Canada gave a seminar and he included about doing this. I thought this

was a good idea but never got around to making one especially since

isn’t at our house. Dave has had success making these short clips and

lets the person watch it over and over again to learn.

After thinking about all of this to me we work at teaching these things

and by constantly repeating and some things may be retained and learned

but we have to be prepared that some things the person just can’t

cognitively comprehend. As we know all our children are different and

learn in different ways so we are always working to come up with that

magic formula that works. Some will learn and others will not which we

reluctantly will accept.

Louise, Mom to 43, DS, Deaf, ASD (diagnosed age 41)

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[Guest guest]

Carol you present some very good points and questions. I have to rush

out right now but will get back to you later today. Louise

Re: behavior- pleasing verses annoying

Thanks Louise, great post you made a lot of sense and so organized too,

so

easy to follow. I wish I had your talent for writing. :-)

yep I do understand that some things we might have to repeat over and

over

and some things they may or may not get or may get later. But I guess

what I

am looking for is how to show them what something means. Just telling

her to

stop whining doesn't help because she doesn't know what whining means.

Telling her no cry isn't good because there are times when it is ok to

cry.

Telling her it's not funny when someone gets hurt doesn't cut it

either. She

doesn't seem to understand that other people feel pain just like she

does. That

is what is so hard. Speaking of pain, on Monday she ran into the

corner

cabinet hard enough to break blood on her thigh and didn't even wince,

I got a

bandaid and put on the cut and asked her if it hurt and she looked at

the

bandaid and went ouch and then laughed. When she is sick the first

thing I am

asked is does she have pain, well how would I know! If I go by how I

would feel

then I would say yes but she seems to have a higher tolerance than I

do.

When she is whining and I don't have a clue I'm asked why does she do

that.

Yesterday when someone asked me that question I just looked at them and

asked

" do I look like a mind reader to you? " I know that was rude but geez

it's

hard enough dealing with a child who has a legitimate disability and

then

dealing with an adult who just seems to chose not to use the common

sense they were

given. Sorry for the rant. :-)

The inappropriate laughing I can deal with, but it's the whining

especially

when I don't know why she is whining that gets to me, can you tell.

:-) I

just don't like whining and while it was an issue with my typical son

it

didn't last long and he understood when I told him to stop. Trisha

doesn't. :-(

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

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[Guest guest]

In the last 6 mos Dylan has started whining. So, I can completely relate to

what you are referring to Carol. It is so hard. I don't know what to do

either, but it's driving us nuts. If I come up with anything I will let you

know.

Becky

mom to Dylan, 11

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 11:25:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

rylan_becky@... writes:

If I come up with anything I will let you know.

well I'll share this much, be careful what you try it can backfire on you as

you will see from my other post. :-)

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 10:41:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

louandy@... writes:

Carol you present some very good points and questions. I have to rush

out right now but will get back to you later today

Thanks, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and suggestions. I figure

you've been down that road probably many times so I'm hoping to learn a lot

from your experience. I also emailed Barbara Doyle but haven't heard back from

her yet. I hope she will have some suggestions or resources that will help.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 8:18:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

gldcst@... writes:

Absolutely nothing!

I hope you get some good answers on this for me too!

_http://www.ccccunion.org/pages/emotional.pdf_

(http://www.ccccunion.org/pages/emotional.pdf)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 8:10:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

liz.desantis@... writes:

Carol: If you find the answer, please let us know!!!! Tori does not

understand either.

I will gladly share anything I learn. I just hope I learn something fast

before I pull my hair out. lol Whining to me is as bad as scratching your

fingernails on a chalk board. :-(

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 6:37:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

henniganp@... writes:

What I do with my son (Liam, 10) is I whine back at him when he

whines at me. He likes it when something is funny, so to teach him

what whining sounds like, I whine " Aaaarrrreeee yooooouuuuu

whiiiiiininnng....... IIII doon't liiike whiiiining....I can't

heeeearr yyoooouuuu wheeeen yyyooou whhhiiiiine. "

yep have done that as well, she didn't think it was funny and it just

agitated her even more. All the tradional ways of doing things are just not

working with her at this point. However I do know why she has been so whiny

over

the last few days, she started her period today so I think that contributes to

it as well but then what is the reasoning when she isn't on her period? lol

As for the repeating, I totally understand as we have that issue ourselves

but it's something we can actually work with. When she repeats to the point

of getting on my nerves I just tell her finished and sign finish and turn my

head away. That usually works about 75% of the time. Oh, if I could get the

whining to stop 75% of the time I'd be happy. :-)

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the information. believe me charting is something I can do well.

:-) We use the ABC chart for several other behaviors already. Trisha goes

to a school for autism and they just love to chart, chart, chart and on top

of that her behavior consultant loves to chart, chart, chart. lol sometimes

I feel we do more charting than brainstorming. :-) But you are right it

does help sometimes to pinpoint the problems. Some of her whining we know what

the triggers are and can do a workaround for those. Trisha actually uses a

fan to drown out white noise. If you turn the fan off she wakes up and will

turn it back on. When Trisha whines and cries because she isn't getting her

way I can deal with that because I know what the problem is and we usually

find a solution. It is when she is whining and nothing we do or say helps

and the more you try to find out why she is whining the worse she gets.

Example, the other morning she wanted pancakes, I fixed them like I always do

and

gave them to her, every bite she took she cried so I checked to see if they

were too hot or too cold but no they were fine, so I said if you don't want them

give to me and she cried, she signed she wanted juice, I got her juice, she

whined while drinking it. She signed when she finally finished eating, I

removed the plate, she whined. She wanted me to bring her dvd player onto the

porch to watch, I did that, and she cried and whined. She seems to go through

stages when it's worse than other times. When she is crying or whining

about things that I can do something about it stops as soon as we fix the

problem

most of the time, this is a different whining, it's like she doesn't even

know why or what she is whining about. When she does stop whining then she is

just as happy and loving as can be.

The funny thing is that she doesn't get what she wants when she whines so

the whining isn't helping her in that area. I was told to ignore her, well that

is easier said than done especially in a very small trailer, school says she

has asked for something and then cried when they gave it to her. It's like

she doesn't really know what she wants. I am beginning to think she is

having bouts of PMS or maybe it's just the teenage hormones and she just

doesn't

understand what is going on. But as to the medical part, she checks out just

fine. I guess it's just another piece of the puzzle we have to figure out.

Hey, but other than that, she is doing great at school, and her program has

been updated since she has mastered some of her goals, she is now able to

tolerate the headphones for 6 minutes so they are upping it to 7 mins. It's

slow going but hopefully before my ears give out we will have her listening to

her music and movies in a more quieter mode. :-) Getting her into the Autism

school has been one of the longest and hardest fights I have had with the

school system but it's also been one of the best things we've done. :-)

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 9:39:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

t_l_stevenson@... writes:

Could it be that when you are giving Trisha what she asks for that it might

not be exactly what she wants? For example, if she says she wants something

to drink and you give her juice, could it be that she wants a glass of milk?

I don't think so, she tells me juice or milk or tea or kool-aid. She is

good about signing that information for me. If she signs drink then I ask her

what kind of drink and she will specify what kind. I think I will chalk this

particular type of whining up to unknown variety and hope she gets over it

soon. :-) I fee like I am whining now, there have been some very good

suggestions made and most of them I have tried and will try the ones I haven't

but I

have to be honest, there may actually be no rhyme or reason that we will

ever figure out on this, it might just be a case of being human and having an

off moment or two or a thousand. :-) Tonight she started whining because it

was time for bed, I read the 5 silly monkeys to her and she was fine. Maybe

we can call this type of whining 5th whine kinda like the mysterious 5th

disease? lol

I do appreciate everyone's help and suggestions and I know this too shall

pass eventually but if anyone has an in with the calgon company I sure could

use a ton of it right now. :-)

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol:

What I do with my son (Liam, 10) is I whine back at him when he

whines at me. He likes it when something is funny, so to teach him

what whining sounds like, I whine " Aaaarrrreeee yooooouuuuu

whiiiiiininnng....... IIII doon't liiike whiiiining....I can't

heeeearr yyoooouuuu wheeeen yyyooou whhhiiiiine. " It strikes him

funny to hear me talk like that, and then I say, in my normal voice -

" Use your normal voice. No whining " . I had to do it a few times

for him to realize what I was saying, but now when I say " stop

whining, use your normal voice " , he knows what I'm referring to.

Sometimes he actually uses his normal voice, or at least cuts the

whining a little! It worked for him, but it's not like he doesn't

whine at all. It's just that now I know that he knows what whining

means!

If you figure out how to get someone to stop repeating the same

thing over and over, let me know! " Mommy, what time the movie.

mommy, what time the movie " " Over the Hedge, Mommy? " " Go see Over

the Hedge? " - we already saw it, for Pete's sake! Now that he's

learning about time, I think he's getting a little OCD.

I hope the whining idea helps. When he laughs at something that is

hurting someone else, I tell him " no laughing, it's not funny " . It

doesn't always work, but sometimes he stops. I think it's more from

my tone then from the fact that he understands why he shouldn't

laugh.

Good luck!

>

> I've been wondering how to get Trisha to understand when she is

doing

> something (whining or rewinding over and well you get the point)

that is annoying.

> I have noticed that she seems to want at times to please people

and loves it

> when she gets praise or claps etc. but she doesn't seem to

comprehend when

> she is annoying or bothering someone. How do you explain or

teach them what

> annoying or bothersome means and where the line is drawn from

being ok to

> becoming annoying? > Carol

> Trishasmom

> She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Funny coincidence ... while I was reading the posts on this thread, a friend

of mine in the UK who works with autistic children came online so I picked

his brain. Here are some of the ideas that we came up with for you. I

didn't catch the beginning of this thread so I apologize if some of these

suggestions have already been made. And please remember that you are

getting the perspective of two teachers so we might be too school-oriented

but I think you could do this at home easily enough.

First, you have to figure out what is triggering the whining. Are you

interacting with her in some way so that she is using the whining to either

comunicate her feelings about demands being made on her? Is the whining

her means of getting your attention (positive/negative)? Or is it being

used as a comforter for her to block out something?

This could be a sensory issue and maybe she's hyper-sensitive to noise? Is

there a fan or something running in the background that she wants to drown

out? A lot of noise around?

One way to figure out the triggers of the behaviour (whining) is to complete

a time sampling chart for a few days. I'm sure you could find one on the

internet somewhere. The chart is one means of observation in which you

observe the child in 15 minute intervals. You put a checkmark if you

observe the behaviour (whining) at that time, a C if it's continuous, or an

X if it is not observed at that time. This would tell you when the

behaviour is occurring and for how long it lasts.

An ABC chart (Antecedent, Behaviour, Consequence) might work too. Again,

you can find some of these on the internet. These forms involve recording

what was going on before the whining started, describe the behaviour (i.e.

if you know why she was whining, etc.), and then what happened as a result

of the behaviour (i.e. did she get what she wanted? did the behaviour

escalate, etc.).

And finally, determine that she is not whining because there is a medical

problem. It could be that she is in pain for some reason.

These are the kinds of things we would do at school to try to figure out how

to deal with a behaviour. Sometimes actually documenting the behaviour (as

opposed to relying on gut instinct or your own reactions) gives you a

completely different perspective to a problem and even makes solutions

obvious. So I've given you the brainstorming between two special ed.

teachers. I hope at least something out of all this proves helpful to you.

I must thank you though. We had fun trying to come up with some ideas to

deal with the whining :-) I've already told my friend that I'd email him

again if you have anymore specific questions about our ideas so that we can

have another brainstorming session together lol.

I have some autism specialists from two different programs coming to visit

my school in the next few weeks. If you emailed me directly with specific

questions, I can try to squeeze in your questions too, if you like.

I hope at least a bit of this helps. Good luck and thank you for the chance

to have a fun brainstorming session with my friend :-)

Resource Teacher

BC, Canada

I touch the future. I teach. Christa McAuliffe

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[Guest guest]

Hi Carol,

You replied while and I were still chatting (about Trisha still even

lol) so I paraphrased your info for him (no names or anything, of course!!)

and we talked about it some more. You have really sparked our interest here

lol.

Could it be that when you are giving Trisha what she asks for that it might

not be exactly what she wants? For example, if she says she wants something

to drink and you give her juice, could it be that she wants a glass of milk?

(who's still thinking while she goes back to packing up her house :-)

I touch the future. I teach. Christa McAuliffe

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[Guest guest]

: Oh, I can't stand that whining! Tori is a pro! On our trip to

see our oldest daughter, Tori started whining in the car...so as Mom drove,

dad started to whine...and OMG!!!! But it worked. She didn't like dad

whining. Then we told her we had a whiney heiney (spelling?) in the car

with us. She laughed.

Tori is also into laughing at when someone gets hurt on TV especially. She

loves America's Funniest Home Videos.

Liz

Re: behavior- pleasing verses annoying

> Hi Carol:

> What I do with my son (Liam, 10) is I whine back at him when he

> whines at me. He likes it when something is funny, so to teach him

> what whining sounds like, I whine " Aaaarrrreeee yooooouuuuu

> whiiiiiininnng....... IIII doon't liiike whiiiining....I can't

> heeeearr yyoooouuuu wheeeen yyyooou whhhiiiiine. " It strikes him

> funny to hear me talk like that, and then I say, in my normal voice -

> " Use your normal voice. No whining " . I had to do it a few times

> for him to realize what I was saying, but now when I say " stop

> whining, use your normal voice " , he knows what I'm referring to.

> Sometimes he actually uses his normal voice, or at least cuts the

> whining a little! It worked for him, but it's not like he doesn't

> whine at all. It's just that now I know that he knows what whining

> means!

>

> If you figure out how to get someone to stop repeating the same

> thing over and over, let me know! " Mommy, what time the movie.

> mommy, what time the movie " " Over the Hedge, Mommy? " " Go see Over

> the Hedge? " - we already saw it, for Pete's sake! Now that he's

> learning about time, I think he's getting a little OCD.

>

> I hope the whining idea helps. When he laughs at something that is

> hurting someone else, I tell him " no laughing, it's not funny " . It

> doesn't always work, but sometimes he stops. I think it's more from

> my tone then from the fact that he understands why he shouldn't

> laugh.

>

> Good luck!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>

>> I've been wondering how to get Trisha to understand when she is

> doing

>> something (whining or rewinding over and well you get the point)

> that is annoying.

>> I have noticed that she seems to want at times to please people

> and loves it

>> when she gets praise or claps etc. but she doesn't seem to

> comprehend when

>> she is annoying or bothering someone. How do you explain or

> teach them what

>> annoying or bothersome means and where the line is drawn from

> being ok to

>> becoming annoying? > Carol

>> Trishasmom

>> She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Carol,

This is where RDI comes in when behavior modification and other

trials are not enough. You might want to ask the school which Trisha

attends if they have had any training in this area. It is one of

those programs that could be combine with ABA as I have observed

worked for some that are non-verbal, low-cognitive,etc.

You will hear alot of ABA or RDI therapist put each program down and

it usually becomes a controversial discussion,to me whatever helps

and treatments provided to overcome their inability to make some

connection is worth a trial as every individual are unique in their

own way.

Dr. Gutstein was determined to make a difference and develop a method

that would enable people with Autism to build emotional bridges with

others.

Many of the ABA therapist whom I know have also incorporated the

combo of RDI with their ABA programs and their has been some progress

in this area.

Kat's site:

http://www.firstyearsinterventions.com/What+IS+RDI.aspx

I'm still new in this area as I have a cyber friend KAT whom I have

met out and about at workshops and conferences, whom I stay in touch

with once in awhile with this topic. I was persuing it further as I

found it pretty interesting at one of the conferences I had attended

with the strategies and tips given, until I had to decide to work

around 's underlying medical issues at first so I placed this

on halt.

I do have the book Solving The Relationship Puzzle, A New Development

Program That Opens The Door To Lifelong Social & Emotional Growth by

E. Gutstein,Ph.D.

Which I will get back into reading once I'm back on track with this.

Have not attended the conference as it was cancelled out here but

look forward one of these years.

It is not just for kids with HF or Aspergers. It is for all ages, non-

verbal, etc. just like the ABA programs myths.

http://www.connectionscenter.com/RDI/RDIresults.asp

Hope that you get to hear something from Barbara Doyle, looking

forward reading an update on your findings on this.

Definitely detective work.

Irma,17,DS/ASD

[Guest guest]

Carol, As I was reading your post, that is exactly what crossed my mind -

hormones. Since she's whining about EVERYTHING! Maybe she is weepy. I know my

daughter has days that she's quite whiney, tearful, mad - she's only 9 1/2 but

I'm starting to think it's hormones. I ask her why she's crying, etc.. and most

of the time she say's " I don't know " through tears! LOL!

I hope it passes soon or you'll be saying " Pass the Vodka! " LOL!

hang in there,

Jayne

<csvillars@... wrote:

It's like

she doesn't really know what she wants. I am beginning to think she is

having bouts of PMS or maybe it's just the teenage hormones and she just

doesn't

understand what is going on.

I guess it's just another piece of the puzzle we have to figure out. >

__________________________________________________