Re: Aggressive behaviors

January 13, 2006

Liz a thought -- have pictures of kicking, pinching, hitting, and

scratching and then put the red circle with the line through it over the

picture. The circle with the line through it is one of the things that

Hodgdon uses see her website

http://www.usevisualstrategies.com/pictures.html Very visual. Louise

Aggressive behaviors

Ok, I need advice again! Tori can be very aggressive. At times it

could be because she is angry, but most of the time it is impulsive.

For instance, last night she kicked me in the side and sent me through

the roof. I am bruised now. The problem is that when she is told that

we don't hit, kick, pinch or scratch, she tells us " It's Ok... " God, I

can't stand when she says that anymore... I have made picture directives

for her with " It is not OK to ...... " and I know she just doesn't

understand but I am losing my mind. She has a high pain tolerance and I

assume she thinks other people do to. But when you tell her it hurts,

she reiterates... " It's Ok... "

Liz

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January 13, 2006

Hi LIz,

Have you thought about teaching her what you want her

to do instead? Make a list of the things she could

replaee it with--reasonably. NOt the perfect behavior,

but just someting " else " she coudl do that is not

hurtful. Then make a social story about it.

When I want Mom's attention, I can....

a

b

c

When I get the urge to kick, I can do

a

b

c

instead.

(that's not worded teh best).

Use photos.

Use an incentive chart or even stickers on her clothes

or something that rewards her for doing the alternatve

behavior.

Too often we focus on the effect of the behavior on US

(which is reasonable when it hurts). It's not a

concept that our kids understand (hurting you). But

what we forget to do is to teach them what they CAN do

that gets the same outcome.

Ask yourself what she gets out of kicking you (it's

not as impulsive as you think--it's just not

" premeditated. " ). If waht she gets is yoru

attention--even though it is negative--find a way you

she can tell you she wants your attention that you

PROMISE to always respond to.

And there is the trick on your part. you MUST ALWAYS

RESPOND in the positve manner while she's learning

this.

It's HARD.

Just a thought.

j

--- Liz D wrote:

> Ok, I need advice again! Tori can be very

> aggressive. At times it could be because she is

> angry, but most of the time it is impulsive. For

> instance, last night she kicked me in the side and

> sent me through the roof. I am bruised now. The

> problem is that when she is told that we don't hit,

> kick, pinch or scratch, she tells us " It's Ok... "

> God, I can't stand when she says that anymore... I

> have made picture directives for her with " It is not

> OK to ...... " and I know she just doesn't understand

> but I am losing my mind. She has a high pain

> tolerance and I assume she thinks other people do

> to. But when you tell her it hurts, she

> reiterates... " It's Ok... "

>

> Liz

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> --------------------------------------------------

> Checkout our homepage for information,

> bookmarks, and photos of our kids. Share favorite

> bookmarks, ideas, and other information by including

> them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record

> of the archives for our list.

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> --------------------------------------------

>

January 13, 2006

I read the other comments on this. As they say our kids are like

snowflakes each one is different. I can only share what we

experience. With Ray it is impulse control issues at times, it is

also about his not being able to communicate something to me such as

physical issues and sometimes it is about confusion.

I don't think he is able to understand the concept of hurting someone. If

he did I think it would be about anger because he doesn't cry when hurt he

gets mad.

Additionally telling Ray to stop hurting me actually escalates the

behavior because he gets so stuck in guilt. I try to get him sitting down

or block whatever he is doing and let him take a short break to de-escalate

sometimes using the service dog or prn medication depending on the severity

of the situation. Sometimes he can be in the heat of aggressive behavior

and still redirectable. It is a play it by ear thing for us.

It seems important to note that Ray also has bipolar so some of his

aggression is not the same as others experience.

It also seems important to note that this summer when there were no

physical symptoms that implied he was sick Ray was literally pulling

out handfulls of my hair and more aggressive than ever. He ended up having

a leaking (about to rupture) appendice, major gastritis, enlarged pancreas

and had emergency surgery.

When behaviors increase I look at if this is communication by behavior

first and rule everything medically, environmentally and schedulewise out

that I can. I review my journal where I have tracked what was going on

just before the incident and what the incident was like to see if there are

obvious triggers. If there are we avoid them or alter the way it plays

out. If there are medications I review potential side effects, etc.

In Ray's case we do have to use medication for impulse control. We

are having substantial improvement in that with Seroquel at this point. I

am always hesitant to say something is working because he builds up

tolerance so quickly.

At 06:54 PM 1/13/2006, you wrote:

>Ok, I need advice again! Tori can be very aggressive. At times it could

>be because she is angry, but most of the time it is impulsive. For

>instance, last night she kicked me in the side and sent me through the

>roof. I am bruised now. The problem is that when she is told that we

>don't hit, kick, pinch or scratch, she tells us " It's Ok... " God, I

>can't stand when she says that anymore... I have made picture directives

>for her with " It is not OK to ...... " and I know she just doesn't

>understand but I am losing my mind. She has a high pain tolerance and I

>assume she thinks other people do to. But when you tell her it hurts, she

>reiterates... " It's Ok... "

>

>Liz

Peggy Lou

www.parentingyourcomplexchild.com

www.lighthouseparents.com

http://parentingacomplexchild.blogspot.com/

January 14, 2006

the fact that someone is verbal does not mean that they can always get their

thoughts across to others and they still can become very frustrated if what

they are trying to convey is not what is being understood. Maybe her saying

ok is the same thing that we do when we try to comfort our kids. When Trisha

gets hurt or is sick I tend to say that it's ok or you will be ok, to help

her know that it won't last. Maybe Tori is trying to tell you the same

thing. Think back to an IEP meeting where you were trying to tell the team

something and it made perfect sense to you but the rest of them looked like you

had grown 10 heads, remember how frustrating it was to you. I think of things

like that and then multiply it 10 times and figure the fact that our kids

haven't gone on the war path is amazing to me with all they have to deal with

and then here us parents come along and add more fuel to the fire because we

might not always understand what is going on in their head and maybe to them WE

should, after all we are their moms that they just get so upset they lash

out. I can remember so many times I wanted to just shake someone because they

just didn't get it and I was tired of trying to explain it over and over and

finally instead of kicking them like I wanted I just said forget it. Well

our kids don't always have the reasoning to know that even though you might

want to kick someone you don't you use self-control. Social stories,

redirecting, multiple ways of communication are all good ways to help and even

then you

may not always find out what is causing the reaction. When Trisha is

getting ready to start her period she gets cranky but she can't tell me how she

feels and I have to guess. I have to guess if her head hurts or her stomach

hurts by just observing how she does, like if she keeps touching her head near

her eyes or if she stays doubled over for long periods of time, etc. If I ask

her if she hurts she just signs hurt but doesn't tell me where. I don't

look at our kids as being aggressive, I look more at them being so frustrated

they lash out. Anyone will lash out if provoked enough but do we label them

aggressive, no we say they were provoked into doing whatever. Life can be

very provoking to our kids and they just don't always have the ability or the

coping skills do deal with it all, heck, I don't have the skills to deal with

all that our kids deal with so when you think of it that way, they do a much

better job than I might under the same circumstances. Even when someone is

verbal, total communication can be very helpful in situations like this.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't typical, She's Trisha!

If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you've always

gotten.

January 14, 2006

Hi Liz, I know exactly how you feel. Mic kicks,slaps,

pulls hair and we have always used the sign for mad

and it helps.If I yell at Mic he knows something is

very wrong with mommy.I never yell at him unless its

danger or hes hurting me.But I am told I throw my

signs and actually am yelling at Mic in sign

language.People who know anything about signing laugh

at me.Well its better than yelling across the doctors

office.Mic does not seem to understand pain of others

either.Last time he kicked me I doubled over he

knocked the wind out of me.Mic knew somethting was

wrong but Im not sure he knew he caused it. I cant

wait to hear suggestions I sure could use some myself. Laurie

January 14, 2006

Hi Liz, sorry you all are going thru this, I know how you feel, just

wondering if when Tori says, its okay, do you think she is trying to

make it okay cause she is upset in some way?(either by her actions

or her need to do them?) I know even though is basically

nonverbal, he sometimes seems to be saying " k " for its okay,(when he

is upset) cause I say " its okay " often to him.(alot of s is

due to trying to tell me something he cannot) anyway,I know you said

before that Tori has sensory issues, Liz, you are on top of things

so you probably already thought of this, what if you did some things

to help her get that input into her feet that she may be getting by

kicking? maybe more jumping or joint compressions? I know when

gets really bad with his scratching us, I will try to rub or

brush his hands and fingers. I know we dont want to give them a

positive reinforcement right after the behavior, but just a thought.

is it just kicking? thinking of you and knowing how you feel, Dawn

(it is so hard when we really see they do not understand when we try

to do the typical things we did with our others! How are you? are

you still feeling the bruise? God Bless you)

>

> Ok, I need advice again! Tori can be very aggressive. At times

it could be because she is angry, but most of the time it is

impulsive. For instance, last night she kicked me in the side and

sent me through the roof. I am bruised now. The problem is that

when she is told that we don't hit, kick, pinch or scratch, she

tells us " It's Ok... " God, I can't stand when she says that

anymore... I have made picture directives for her with " It is not OK

to ...... " and I know she just doesn't understand but I am losing my

mind. She has a high pain tolerance and I assume she thinks other

people do to. But when you tell her it hurts, she

reiterates... " It's Ok... "

>

> Liz

>

January 14, 2006

At 05:50 AM 1/14/2006, you wrote:

>She is very verbal, so I don't think communication could

>be her problem.

Liz, Ray is verbal most of the time but there are times when he can't

" get it out " . However, for him the impulse control issues aren't really

handled absent meds. I hate that but for BR it is true.

Peggy Lou

www.parentingyourcomplexchild.com

www.lighthouseparents.com

http://parentingacomplexchild.blogspot.com/

January 14, 2006

I did a search on autism and aggression.I came up with

all we already know sensory and meds.Everybody gets

frustrated the child, the parents, everybody.At Mics

school they are quick and always on guard usually they

block their hands and lay them in their laps and say

" quiet hands " grab their legs when kicking and

samething " quiet feet " it took along time but its

working.It works sometimes for me at home.Mic gets

this far away look and just slaps me and he looks

determined when hes doing it.He keeps trying until I

either walk away or grab his arms to defend myself I

always say quiet hands,that can make him worse and

more determined.Hes not being mean he just has to do

it like an itch you cant scratch.It took Mic almost a

year of quiet hands before it started working at

school.Its actually working on the other kids

too.Thats what I try to do if I see it coming.I

usually do not see it coming.Mic can be smiling when

he does it. Laurie

January 14, 2006

--- Liz D wrote:

> Tori is very verbal and only sign Tori will even pay

> attention to anymore is

> " STOP " and that doesn't last very long either. The

> only time we yell or

> raise our voice to her is when she is hurting

> someone or could get hurt.

> She acts as if she knows someone is hurt or angry,

> but just tells us " It's

> OK! "

>

'

Hi Liz,

All the ideas I listed (the social story telling her

what you want her to do--teaching hte desired

behavior) are used more iwth kids who are verbal than

kids who are not. Most folks think kids who are

nonverbal aren't communicating--drives me nuts.

I learnd how to make little " decision " books about

" what I can do when I need a break " for a student who

would be overwhelmed and become aggressive/disruptive

in class. He couldn't problem solve what to do to

diffuse the feelings on his own. He called the book

his " problem book. " it was in wallet photo holder and

had all the choices he was allowed and liked for when

he needed a break and on the front was the card he

could give to the teacher to say he needed a break.

I think Tori needs help problem-solving what it is she

CAN do when she wants your attention and is frustrated

by that. Kicking you and getting a reaction is a

negative reaction, but the outcome is that she has

your attention. If you think there's a different

reason, then what is the more acceptable resaon to do

that?

Her beahvior is telling you something. Look for the

message. This is much harder to do than it is to

suggestion. It takes time.

Take care,

JOan

__________________________________________________

January 14, 2006

This reminds me of a visual strategies conference I went to a few months back.

Say a child is hitting or punching - they quick show a picture of hands down

at their side and say " hands down " This stops the action right away and the

child knows what to do. You then need to quickly redirect them with something

else to do. I will double check my notes and see what more it said about this.

Jayne

nolan wrote:

I did a search on autism and aggression.I came up with

all we already know sensory and meds.Everybody gets

frustrated the child, the parents, everybody.At Mics

school they are quick and always on guard usually they

block their hands and lay them in their laps and say

" quiet hands " grab their legs when kicking and

samething " quiet feet " it took along time but its

working.It works sometimes for me at home.Mic gets

this far away look and just slaps me and he looks

determined when hes doing it.He keeps trying until I

either walk away or grab his arms to defend myself I

always say quiet hands,that can make him worse and

more determined.Hes not being mean he just has to do

it like an itch you cant scratch.It took Mic almost a

year of quiet hands before it started working at

school.Its actually working on the other kids

too.Thats what I try to do if I see it coming.I

usually do not see it coming.Mic can be smiling when

he does it. Laurie

--------------------------------------------------

Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos of our

kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by including them.

Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the archives for our list.

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--------------------------------------------

January 15, 2006

Oh, Joan- I may have missed your ideas (social stories). Could you resend?

Liz

Re: Aggressive behaviors

>

> --- Liz D wrote:

>

>> Tori is very verbal and only sign Tori will even pay

>> attention to anymore is

>> " STOP " and that doesn't last very long either. The

>> only time we yell or

>> raise our voice to her is when she is hurting

>> someone or could get hurt.

>> She acts as if she knows someone is hurt or angry,

>> but just tells us " It's

>> OK! "

>>

> '

> Hi Liz,

>

> All the ideas I listed (the social story telling her

> what you want her to do--teaching hte desired

> behavior) are used more iwth kids who are verbal than

> kids who are not. Most folks think kids who are

> nonverbal aren't communicating--drives me nuts.

>

> I learnd how to make little " decision " books about

> " what I can do when I need a break " for a student who

> would be overwhelmed and become aggressive/disruptive

> in class. He couldn't problem solve what to do to

> diffuse the feelings on his own. He called the book

> his " problem book. " it was in wallet photo holder and

> had all the choices he was allowed and liked for when

> he needed a break and on the front was the card he

> could give to the teacher to say he needed a break.

>

> I think Tori needs help problem-solving what it is she

> CAN do when she wants your attention and is frustrated

> by that. Kicking you and getting a reaction is a

> negative reaction, but the outcome is that she has

> your attention. If you think there's a different

> reason, then what is the more acceptable resaon to do

> that?

>

> Her beahvior is telling you something. Look for the

> message. This is much harder to do than it is to

> suggestion. It takes time.

>

> Take care,

> JOan

>

> __________________________________________________

>

January 15, 2006

--- Liz D wrote:

> Oh, Joan- I may have missed your ideas (social

> stories). Could you resend?

LIz, h ere it is.

Remember, whenever you want to go back and read old

posts, we do have an archives that you can access on

the web interface for the group.

An additional note to this post. When you write social

stories, be very aware of the messages you are sending

your kids. They are not CHOOSING to be naughty most of

the time. They are overwhelmed, can't process, and act

impulsively in a manner that communicates that inner

frustration. Try to keep value statements out of them.

Avoid using words like " good " " bad " " naughty. " Use

words like, " angry " instead.

Especially with the way our kids remember

these...their self-esteem is tied to the statements

they run over and over in their head. So the more it's

about what TO DO the better.

Here is the post:

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:57:16 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: Aggressive behaviors

Hi LIz,

Have you thought about teaching her what you want her

to do instead? Make a list of the things she could

replaee it with--reasonably. NOt the perfect behavior,

but just someting " else " she coudl do that is not

hurtful. Then make a social story about it.

When I want Mom's attention, I can....

a

b

c

When I get the urge to kick, I can:

a

b

c

instead.

(that's not worded teh best).

These things might be things ilke, go for a walk,

swing, read a book, jump on my trampline.........

Use photos.

Use an incentive chart or even stickers on her clothes

or something that rewards her for doing the alternatve

behavior.

Too often we focus on the effect of the behavior on US

(which is reasonable when it hurts). It's not a

concept that our kids understand (hurting you). But

what we forget to do is to teach them what they CAN do

that gets the same outcome.

Ask yourself what she gets out of kicking you (it's

not as impulsive as you think--it's just not

" premeditated. " ). If waht she gets is yoru

attention--even though it is negative--find a way you

she can tell you she wants your attention that you

PROMISE to always respond to.

And there is the trick on your part. you MUST ALWAYS

RESPOND in the positve manner while she's learning

this.

It's HARD.

Just a thought.

j

__________________________________________________

January 15, 2006

I sent this email yesterday morning and it just showed up now????

Re: Aggressive behaviors

>

>> Hi Liz, I know exactly how you feel. Mic kicks,slaps,

>> pulls hair and we have always used the sign for mad

>> and it helps.If I yell at Mic he knows something is

>> very wrong with mommy.I never yell at him unless its

>> danger or hes hurting me.But I am told I throw my

>> signs and actually am yelling at Mic in sign

>> language.People who know anything about signing laugh

>> at me.Well its better than yelling across the doctors

>> office.Mic does not seem to understand pain of others

>> either.Last time he kicked me I doubled over he

>> knocked the wind out of me.Mic knew somethting was

>> wrong but Im not sure he knew he caused it. I cant

>> wait to hear suggestions I sure could use some myself. Laurie

>>

>> --------------------------------------------------

>> Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos

>> of our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by

>> including them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the

>> archives for our list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/

>> --------------------------------------------

>>

May 31, 2006

In a message dated 5/31/2006 4:04:33 P.M. Central Standard Time,

writes:

Ok, guys. I need to pick your brains. Are any of your kids on meds for

aggressive behaviors? Tori is getting so bad with the hitting, pinching,

scratching, and now attempting to bite we are at our wits end. She does it

impulsively as well as when she can't have her own way. I am so bruised and

she

only weighs 45 lbs.

Liz

Clonidine and adderall really help . His aggression was so out of the

blue it was too hard to predict. I still remember one when he was sitting on my

niece's lap and giving her a wonderful hug then bit her on the shoulder.

Another was when he was swinging and she was pushing him. He very deliberately

threw his head back hitting her in the face.

Of course I knew to expect it when I was telling him no, but the adderall

seemed to give him that extra second to contemplate his next move, and the

consequence also.

Karyn

May 31, 2006

<<Ok, guys. I need to pick your brains. Are any of your kids on meds for

aggressive behaviors? Tori is getting so bad with the hitting, pinching,

scratching, and now attempting to bite we are at our wits end. She does it

impulsively as well as when she can't have her own way. I am so bruised and

she

only weighs 45 lbs. >>

OK at age 6 we can't blame hormones yet obviously:-) (maybe yours??LOL)

was extremely aggressive and self abusive and for her what helped most (at

the time she reacted negatively to any meds we tried)

#1 allergy treatment...testing and removing environmental allergens and shots

#2 diet: removing allergens and reducing GI pain

#3 Verbal behavior ABA teaching substitute means of communicating..one small

bite or pinch at a time.

#4 clonidine at bedtime to be sure she got a true full night's sleep

Unfortunately between 10 and 11 going thru puberty she regressed into a true

animal like ferocious state.

Sherry

May 31, 2006

Agressive Behaviors yes we put on meds about 1yr ago and his

behavior has improved much. used to pinch,pull hair,scratch,

bite, and the straw that broke the camels back is when we were at

the mall and he threw his hard drink cup and hit an old lady. I was

so upset. Of course he was not aiming at her but he still threw the

cup and it hit her. still gets mad or frustrated and will

sometimes bite himself but the other behaviors are gone.He sleeps

through the night and within the first month he seem to understand

things better. was frustrated because then he did not know how

to communicate his needs and now he has a wide variety of pecs.Just

like with any child you grab their little hands and tell them no,

that is mean. The meds just seem to help. Of course still gets

upset if he is feeling bad because he still cannot communicate if he

is feeling bad or hurt so we are working on this. My husband was

totally against the meds but after seeing the huge difference it has

made in our son he is glad that we did. You have to start early with

intervention because one day Tori will be stronger than you and

dealing with that later may be too late to get the bad behavior

under control. I think you are on the right track. Cyndi

>

> <<Ok, guys. I need to pick your brains. Are any of your kids on

meds for

> aggressive behaviors? Tori is getting so bad with the hitting,

pinching,

> scratching, and now attempting to bite we are at our wits end.

She does it

> impulsively as well as when she can't have her own way. I am so

bruised and she

> only weighs 45 lbs. >>

>

> OK at age 6 we can't blame hormones yet obviously:-) (maybe yours??

LOL)

> was extremely aggressive and self abusive and for her what

helped most (at the time she reacted negatively to any meds we tried)

> #1 allergy treatment...testing and removing environmental

allergens and shots

> #2 diet: removing allergens and reducing GI pain

> #3 Verbal behavior ABA teaching substitute means of

communicating..one small bite or pinch at a time.

> #4 clonidine at bedtime to be sure she got a true full night's

sleep

>

> Unfortunately between 10 and 11 going thru puberty she regressed

into a true animal like ferocious state.

> Sherry

>

June 1, 2006

Thanks, Karyn!!!

Re: aggressive behaviors

In a message dated 5/31/2006 4:04:33 P.M. Central Standard Time,

writes:

Ok, guys. I need to pick your brains. Are any of your kids on meds for

aggressive behaviors? Tori is getting so bad with the hitting, pinching,

scratching, and now attempting to bite we are at our wits end. She does it

impulsively as well as when she can't have her own way. I am so bruised

and she

only weighs 45 lbs.

Liz

Clonidine and adderall really help . His aggression was so out of the

blue it was too hard to predict. I still remember one when he was sitting on

my

niece's lap and giving her a wonderful hug then bit her on the shoulder.

Another was when he was swinging and she was pushing him. He very

deliberately

threw his head back hitting her in the face.

Of course I knew to expect it when I was telling him no, but the adderall

seemed to give him that extra second to contemplate his next move, and the

consequence also.

Karyn

June 1, 2006

Cyndi: What med is he on for that?