Re: tonite on Prime Time Live

April 23, 2004

I caught part of this show last night. The only thing that disturbed me was

that the father looked like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. These

triplets are very young and the family is really at the beginning of their

journey. I'm afraid that if they do not adjust their lifestyle some they will

burn out very soon.

Marilyn, mother to Dov 13 DS, ASD

April 23, 2004

In a message dated 4/23/2004 10:40:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ICANFIELD@... writes:

Notice how when one of the ABA Therapist kept making one of the kids stay

seated. It did take alot of work but poor baby as he was being forced to do

something he had no interest on, there was no reinforcement or kept him

motivated.

A good ABA therapist would of had a bag of tricks and worked on strategies for

kids with fragile interests and hard to be motivated around their natural

environment.

I agree Irma. I did not think this show portrayed a good image of ABA

therapy. It looked to me like rather than *teaching* the children, they were

breaking their spirits. I felt so bad for the little boys and wanted to

*rescue* them!!! This is not how ABA is done with Maddie. But then, I've

always

said that Melmark does ABA with a Floortime touch...LOL

I also didn't like the fact that they made it sound like it was now or never.

It makes our kids' future look so dismal.

And I agree with Marilyn.....the family seems to be on the edge...but then,

hell, sometimes I feel that way too!!!!

The one good thing that will probably come out of them doing this show

however, is that the school district will most likely comply with their requests

for

ABA services. Being shown on national tv as not helping this family sure is

bad press. It's just a bunch of bull that they can't do it.....here in

Philly, families were told that too........until they started suiing!!

Donna

April 23, 2004

Hi Marilyn and all,

Your observation on this is so true. I too thought the same way, they will get

burned out. He was unemployed and concerned about how much further on the

expenses and the need for it and their life savings used for this type of

intervention. All this would of also been decreased if everybody was taught to

teach the correct method. I've seen and heard of alot of parents paying so much

for their child for numerous years and there were no progress.

Shaping, chaining, prompt fading, incidental teaching, free operant

reinforcement, activity schedules, behavior reduction strategies and

generalizing training-oh yeah, and Discrete Trial Teaching--should be a

priority. An overview of the history and development of ABA as well as the book

Verbal Behavior by B.F. Skinner and applying Skinner's analysis of VB into an

ABA program. Verbal Operants as described by Skinner and how to apply them. More

often then not our children's degree of disability, or state of being (lazy,

silly, hyper, etc.) is blamed for the lack of acquisition of new skills or

maintained behavior when in reality, the blame should be on how it was taught.

How upsetting it is when our kids are blamed as " bad behavior " when they were

taught incorrectly.

Dr. Carbone in detail explained the verbal operants as defined by B.F. Skinner

and how to " teach Verbal Behavior to persons who do not acquire it typically " .

He explained through many video examples of how to apply proven (documented

studies) effective teaching procedures=using competing positive reinforcers,

errorless learning, interspersing easy and difficult targets, mixing and varying

tasks, extinction of off-task responses, fading in the # of demands, using easy

responses at first then increase difficulty, immediate delivery of reinforcers,

teaching to fluency, short inter trial interval as possible (ITI) along with

critical reinforcement variables= value of + rate of + immediacy of + magnitude

of + making sure effort of response required is not to difficult) while

utilizing and applying the Verbal Operants as defined by B.F. Skinner to your

ABA program (in the natural environment as well as during intensive teaching).

It had also bothered me watching this type of intervention, when it came to

the finance part and loved that some progress had been shown but what a waste of

money on their part. Example 12 therapist working on their kids. This can be cut

down to a minimal on working with the children if taught to teach correctly.

Notice how when one of the ABA Therapist kept making one of the kids stay

seated. It did take alot of work but poor baby as he was being forced to do

something he had no interest on, there was no reinforcement or kept him

motivated. A good ABA therapist would of had a bag of tricks and worked on

strategies for kids with fragile interests and hard to be motivated around their

natural environment.

BUILD MORE REINFORCERS: *follow his lead *imitate him *become interested in

items which interest him *help him do what he wants to do or help him find out!

*

A good ABA therapist learns " pairing " with the child at first by working around

the child's interest capitalizing on the child's motivation which was atypical

behavior and see how quickly moved it from atypical to functional,more

appropriate by using pairing with the therapist and child with the objects he

loves.

A little piece of the handout:

*identify the reinforcing feature of " his " toy and find your own that is even

better!*create a situation in which " his " activities are more fun because you

are there*Scheme about ways to contrive situations using the things that are

reinforcing to him to teach communication.*use repeated exposure (note: do not

assume something is out of the question just because the child didn't show

interest after the first presentation, present something at least 20 times--not

in a row for you mass trialers out there!-- for repeated exposure) *use

stimulus-stimulus pairing.

Something else a good ABA therapist would know: DO NOT start with verbal

imitation. DO start with function communication training (manding). " Manding

(requesting) should be the first type of language to teach because it directly

benefits the student. Manding should be targeted regardless of the student's

current skill level. "

An example of what has helped my son was just so that he may stay seated was

have him sit at the table and his therapist sit across from him. The therapist

wanted to see if he could work on a puzzle. He had no interest. He would shout

" NO " . which had continue most of the beginning of his first session. The

therapist than decided to bring in a TV with a VCR in the room and one of his

favorite Disney movie and this was going to be a perfect reinforcement for him

which I had already mentioned that Disney movies were his favorite. She would

then turn on the movie, no talking from her than would stop the video and

yelled " NO " , he then got up and told him to sit down and he said " NO she then

turn on the video and then off, he decided on his own to sit down on the chair,

no physical prompt she then told him " good sitting' and turned the movie back

on. Caught his interest. Then she turned it off again and once again he said

" NO " , then he was about to get up and something obviously kicked in his head as

he did decided to stay seated and work on the puzzle that was on the table and

she then said " high five " and said " movie or maybe it was " Jungle Book

on " , something like that and it was loud and clear. Once again she turned it off

she pointed to the puzzle and of course he said " NO " ! So with him still being

upset she prompted his hand over to the piece of puzzle and he did fit it in its

spot, then she praised him " good job " and then he said " movie " , once again

reinforcement was given by turning it on. She then decided to continue with the

steps and by the end of the session his " no's had decreased as he had learned

that this therapist was cool rewarding him with something that had interest him.

He has done well staying seated and working on some task assigned to this day. I

know it sounds like whoopy but something like this made a major difference in

his life.

If a strictly DTT Lovaas program has worked for your child and you are happy

with everything hooray that something has helped your child. DTT has definitely

helped my son but with applying VB. Here is a great example of what I'm

referring to and just ONE example of what our programs are lacking (taken from

Dr. Partington's handout " Teaching Language to Children with Autism, Capturing

the Motivational Variables " ) " A large number of children with language delays

have strong receptive skills, and strong tact (labeling) repertoires, but weak

mand (requesting) and intraverbal (the ability to talk about objects and events

even though those thing are not physically present, intraverbals are the basis

of conversational skills) skills. The importance of the mand and intraverbal

repertoires in every day verbal interactions if frequently underestimated in the

language training programs currently available for children with autism or other

developmental disabilities.

MANDING TIPS: (from handout)

*create unmet needs *use the principles of satiation and deprivation*gain the

support of all those who interact with the child--why would he work for it now

when he can have it " free " later.*select Items that can be requested repeatedly:

--consumables--music/video--items with natural termination bubbles, spinning,

wind-up toys, cause and effect items, etc*Multiple exemplars*use a termination

signal for physical play

The way to increase Manding is through capturing and contriving situations

(capturing/contriving EO -establishing operations AKA MO motivational

operations)

From handout: Methods to contrive/create " a reason to communicate " :

*set up the environment so the child needs you to gain access to the " goods " .

The idea is to teach the learner that the quicker they elicit the target

response, the quicker they will receive the reinforcer.

*for some children, you may have to select several items and place them on the

floor. you can begin your training after they have engaged in play and you are

paired with reinforcement. For some children, pairing may be necessary with each

item they select before training can occur.

There is so much and right now I do not want to confuse anyone and some of these

wordings are from a handout I was given and notes from one of my cyber-friends

whom share her notes to many on http://elija.org/JennicasNotesInspiration.html .

Irma,15,Ds/ASD

RE: tonite on Prime Time Live

I caught part of this show last night. The only thing that disturbed me was

that the father looked like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. These

triplets are very young and the family is really at the beginning of their

journey. I'm afraid that if they do not adjust their lifestyle some they will

burn out very soon.

Marilyn, mother to Dov 13 DS, ASD

April 23, 2004

Yeah, I agree with you on the ABA method. But lucky it worked with this

family. I didn't know that state or insurance wouldn't pay for it. I'm glad

that the husband has a job now so they can get some money back into those

funds. I just hope that they can continue with ABA method and not the public

school where they don't have an ABA method that they use.

I thought it was interesting the whole case that they showed on primetime.

I thought there were some cons and some negative things, but overall it

turned out pretty positive.

Yeah my day and week are going great now--just since I've watched a tv

show about autism-about what I'm passion about. If it wasn't for that show,

which I'm going to watch again today--then my week would be ok.

rebecca

> Hi Marilyn and all,

> Your observation on this is so true. I too thought the same way, they will

get burned out. He was unemployed and concerned about how much further on

the expenses and the need for it and their life savings used for this type

of intervention. All this would of also been decreased if everybody was

taught to teach the correct method. I've seen and heard of alot of parents

paying so much for their child for numerous years and there were no

progress.

> Shaping, chaining, prompt fading, incidental teaching, free operant

reinforcement, activity schedules, behavior reduction strategies and

generalizing training-oh yeah, and Discrete Trial Teaching--should be a

priority. An overview of the history and development of ABA as well as the

book Verbal Behavior by B.F. Skinner and applying Skinner's analysis of VB

into an ABA program. Verbal Operants as described by Skinner and how to

apply them. More often then not our children's degree of disability, or

state of being (lazy, silly, hyper, etc.) is blamed for the lack of

acquisition of new skills or maintained behavior when in reality, the blame

should be on how it was taught. How upsetting it is when our kids are blamed

as " bad behavior " when they were taught incorrectly.

> Dr. Carbone in detail explained the verbal operants as defined by B.F.

Skinner and how to " teach Verbal Behavior to persons who do not acquire it

typically " . He explained through many video examples of how to apply proven

(documented studies) effective teaching procedures=using competing positive

reinforcers, errorless learning, interspersing easy and difficult targets,

mixing and varying tasks, extinction of off-task responses, fading in the #

of demands, using easy responses at first then increase difficulty,

immediate delivery of reinforcers, teaching to fluency, short inter trial

interval as possible (ITI) along with critical reinforcement variables=

value of + rate of + immediacy of + magnitude of + making sure effort of

response required is not to difficult) while utilizing and applying the

Verbal Operants as defined by B.F. Skinner to your ABA program (in the

natural environment as well as during intensive teaching).

> It had also bothered me watching this type of intervention, when it came

to the finance part and loved that some progress had been shown but what a

waste of money on their part. Example 12 therapist working on their kids.

This can be cut down to a minimal on working with the children if taught to

teach correctly.

> Notice how when one of the ABA Therapist kept making one of the kids stay

seated. It did take alot of work but poor baby as he was being forced to do

something he had no interest on, there was no reinforcement or kept him

motivated. A good ABA therapist would of had a bag of tricks and worked on

strategies for kids with fragile interests and hard to be motivated around

their natural environment.

> BUILD MORE REINFORCERS: *follow his lead *imitate him *become interested

in items which interest him *help him do what he wants to do or help him

find out! *

> A good ABA therapist learns " pairing " with the child at first by working

around the child's interest capitalizing on the child's motivation which was

atypical behavior and see how quickly moved it from atypical to

functional,more appropriate by using pairing with the therapist and child

with the objects he loves.

> A little piece of the handout:

> *identify the reinforcing feature of " his " toy and find your own that is

even better!*create a situation in which " his " activities are more fun

because you are there*Scheme about ways to contrive situations using the

things that are reinforcing to him to teach communication.*use repeated

exposure (note: do not assume something is out of the question just because

the child didn't show interest after the first presentation, present

something at least 20 times--not in a row for you mass trialers out there!--

for repeated exposure) *use stimulus-stimulus pairing.

>

> Something else a good ABA therapist would know: DO NOT start with verbal

imitation. DO start with function communication training (manding). " Manding

(requesting) should be the first type of language to teach because it

directly benefits the student. Manding should be targeted regardless of the

student's current skill level. "

>

> An example of what has helped my son was just so that he may stay seated

was have him sit at the table and his therapist sit across from him. The

therapist wanted to see if he could work on a puzzle. He had no interest. He

would shout " NO " . which had continue most of the beginning of his first

session. The therapist than decided to bring in a TV with a VCR in the room

and one of his favorite Disney movie and this was going to be a perfect

reinforcement for him which I had already mentioned that Disney movies were

his favorite. She would then turn on the movie, no talking from her than

would stop the video and yelled " NO " , he then got up and told him to

sit down and he said " NO she then turn on the video and then off, he decided

on his own to sit down on the chair, no physical prompt she then told him

" good sitting' and turned the movie back on. Caught his interest. Then she

turned it off again and once again he said " NO " , then he was about to get up

and something obviously kicked in his head as he did decided to stay seated

and work on the puzzle that was on the table and she then said " high five "

and said " movie or maybe it was " Jungle Book on " , something like that

and it was loud and clear. Once again she turned it off she pointed to the

puzzle and of course he said " NO " ! So with him still being upset she

prompted his hand over to the piece of puzzle and he did fit it in its spot,

then she praised him " good job " and then he said " movie " , once again

reinforcement was given by turning it on. She then decided to continue with

the steps and by the end of the session his " no's had decreased as he had

learned that this therapist was cool rewarding him with something that had

interest him. He has done well staying seated and working on some task

assigned to this day. I know it sounds like whoopy but something like this

made a major difference in his life.

> If a strictly DTT Lovaas program has worked for your child and you are

happy with everything hooray that something has helped your child. DTT has

definitely helped my son but with applying VB. Here is a great example of

what I'm referring to and just ONE example of what our programs are lacking

(taken from Dr. Partington's handout " Teaching Language to Children with

Autism, Capturing the Motivational Variables " ) " A large number of children

with language delays have strong receptive skills, and strong tact

(labeling) repertoires, but weak mand (requesting) and intraverbal (the

ability to talk about objects and events even though those thing are not

physically present, intraverbals are the basis of conversational skills)

skills. The importance of the mand and intraverbal repertoires in every day

verbal interactions if frequently underestimated in the language training

programs currently available for children with autism or other developmental

disabilities.

> MANDING TIPS: (from handout)

>

> *create unmet needs *use the principles of satiation and deprivation*gain

the support of all those who interact with the child--why would he work for

it now when he can have it " free " later.*select Items that can be requested

repeatedly: --consumables--music/video--items with natural termination

bubbles, spinning, wind-up toys, cause and effect items, etc*Multiple

exemplars*use a termination signal for physical play

>

> The way to increase Manding is through capturing and contriving situations

(capturing/contriving EO -establishing operations AKA MO motivational

operations)

>

> From handout: Methods to contrive/create " a reason to communicate " :

>

> *set up the environment so the child needs you to gain access to the

" goods " .

>

> The idea is to teach the learner that the quicker they elicit the target

response, the quicker they will receive the reinforcer.

>

> *for some children, you may have to select several items and place them on

the floor. you can begin your training after they have engaged in play and

you are paired with reinforcement. For some children, pairing may be

necessary with each item they select before training can occur.

>

> There is so much and right now I do not want to confuse anyone and some of

these wordings are from a handout I was given and notes from one of my

cyber-friends whom share her notes to many on

http://elija.org/JennicasNotesInspiration.html .

>

> Irma,15,Ds/ASD

>

> RE: tonite on Prime Time Live

>

> I caught part of this show last night. The only thing that disturbed me

was that the father looked like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

These triplets are very young and the family is really at the beginning of

their journey. I'm afraid that if they do not adjust their lifestyle some

they will burn out very soon.

>

> Marilyn, mother to Dov 13 DS, ASD

>

April 23, 2004

Hi Donna,

I totally agree. The other thing I had noticed was the parents had no control.

Not that its easy or 100 % but just lacks being confortable and working,

understanding around their children. Training staff and parents on how to teach

and take data on targeted skills. It was not easy watching the " robotic way " .

The way to look at it is through a child's mind would be something like this

" What's in it for me " ? Shape behavior is the key which takes skill and time.

Making the learning environment enjoyable. Teaching in the natural environment.

Another example would be when one of the therapist was teaching one of the kids

on the matching. I did not see what the pictures were but lets say there was a

picture of a crescent moon and two pics of something else and then request for

the child with autism to point at it and say it out loud. Eh, even I would not

have interest or why would anyone have an interest to touch a crescent moon? If

there they were pictures of what the children like then it would interest the

child. Manding does reduce problem behavior. It will also increase social

initation. So true learning does need more effective teaching.

Coming from a 3 day workshop on VB and then to watch the show help pointed out

the negative verse of it and the positive outcome of it yes it may help some but

hopefully it will open the doors to many who were not aware of ABA at all and

then to get educated when applying the Skinner's analysis, Sundberg, &

Partington's. Oops! Better head out to take to his ABA/VB Therapy.

Irma,15,DS/ASD

Re: tonite on Prime Time Live

I agree Irma. I did not think this show portrayed a good image of ABA

therapy. It looked to me like rather than *teaching* the children, they

were

breaking their spirits. I felt so bad for the little boys and wanted to

*rescue* them!!! This is not how ABA is done with Maddie. But then, I've

always

said that Melmark does ABA with a Floortime touch...LOL

I also didn't like the fact that they made it sound like it was now or never.

It makes our kids' future look so dismal.

And I agree with Marilyn.....the family seems to be on the edge...but then,

hell, sometimes I feel that way too!!!!

The one good thing that will probably come out of them doing this show

however, is that the school district will most likely comply with their

requests for

ABA services. Being shown on national tv as not helping this family sure is

bad press. It's just a bunch of bull that they can't do it.....here in

Philly, families were told that too........until they started suiing!!

Donna

April 23, 2004

I got an uneasy feeling watching this show, the ABA boot camp these kids

were made to endure seemed eerily similar to dog obedience training. The

pressure was just too intense on the parents as well as the kids. They all

seemed to be in such a frantic race against time. I felt sorry for the

little boys too. I kept getting the sense that the parents were so focused

on ³a full recovery² that when they burn out, and they will, then no matter

how well the boys do, the parents may never accept their sons¹ disabilities.

When only perfect is good enough, what kind of chance does a kid have?

I came away with more questions than answers about ABA. I¹ve been told that

since was out of elementary school when she was diagnosed and since it

only works on some children and usually never in older kids with MR, that it

is very unlikely it would help her. ¹s teacher says all it does it

create little robots but it can really improve behavior, if that is the

goal. We¹ve got behavior somewhat in hand, but verbal communication is

still out of our grasp.

Has anyone had any success with verbal communication when starting ABA in

the teen years? I¹m not talking about robotic responses to questions, or

mimicking like the boys on the show displayed, I¹m talking about true

communicative intent where they want to share their their sense of humor ,

their feelings etc.

I had a problem with their request for their school district to pick up the

56K per year per child tab. I agreed with the school district¹s attorney.

It¹s not the school district¹s responsibility to send their kids the best

school money can buy. That ABA school¹s tuition was twice that of Notre

Dame and Harvard. No district can afford that. Most districts can¹t even

afford the basics for all their kids. In Seattle, we have a special school

for children with Asperger¹s. My child lost her speech therapy the same year

that school opened. There is no such thing as unlimited funding. Every

dime one child gets means money taken away from another.

Therese

> In a message dated 4/23/2004 10:40:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> ICANFIELD@... writes:

> Notice how when one of the ABA Therapist kept making one of the kids stay

> seated. It did take alot of work but poor baby as he was being forced to do

> something he had no interest on, there was no reinforcement or kept him

> motivated.

> A good ABA therapist would of had a bag of tricks and worked on strategies for

> kids with fragile interests and hard to be motivated around their natural

> environment.

>

> I agree Irma. I did not think this show portrayed a good image of ABA

> therapy. It looked to me like rather than *teaching* the children, they

> were

> breaking their spirits. I felt so bad for the little boys and wanted to

> *rescue* them!!! This is not how ABA is done with Maddie. But then, I've

> always

> said that Melmark does ABA with a Floortime touch...LOL

> I also didn't like the fact that they made it sound like it was now or never.

> It makes our kids' future look so dismal.

> And I agree with Marilyn.....the family seems to be on the edge...but then,

> hell, sometimes I feel that way too!!!!

> The one good thing that will probably come out of them doing this show

> however, is that the school district will most likely comply with their

> requests for

> ABA services. Being shown on national tv as not helping this family sure is

> bad press. It's just a bunch of bull that they can't do it.....here in

> Philly, families were told that too........until they started suiing!!

> Donna

>

April 24, 2004

what bothered me about the Prime Time show was 2 things. 1) how they seemed so

darned desperate & if this ABA wasn't continued then they would eventually have

to be institutionalized. And someone , I think it was a teacher, had said that

the boys lives depended on it. As if this was the be all & end all of their hope

for their children. Well there are other methods & help out there! It may not

always be easy to find, but we are all here on this list b/c we put a little

effort into finding some support which in turns offers help & suggestions for

things to do w/ our special children. I wish this family would spread their

wings a little bit to find some other options that maybe are not so expensive &

emotionally taxing. Don't just throw their boys away b/c they cannot afford this

outrageously expensive therapy.

2) the other thing that bothered me about it was that they barely mentioned

the possibilty of vaccinations causing autism. What they said took less than a

minute of airtime. I know the thimerasol theory is controversial, ( I for one

believe that is the cause in our case) but they brushed it off as if they were

protecting the medical field themselves. I wish they would do an entire show on

the possibilties of causes for autism. They took the easy road & claimed it was

a mystery, no one knows. fact is , there are several theories to what causes it,

and several means of improvement. When is an investigative show going to shed

some light on this issue?! Maybe I should write to them & suggest it!

anyway, those are my thoughts on the show. just sharing.

Theresa & anyone else who may be new or is not familiar, regarding the

communication issue - there is a wonderful man named Dr Jim Mac - everyone

calls him Dr Jim. He has a web site & a support list like this one - I learned

of it from someone here. I highly reccomend that anyone with speech problems

check it out. his web address is jamesdmacdonald.org. Check out his web site &

then join the support list b/c it is really helpful.

DeDee & 13 DS/ASD