Allergist says no

January 14, 2010

Barb: When I came to Dallas, the first thing Dr. Rea put me on was nystatin and

glutathione via nasal spray. Too bad that you did not understand that it can

enter the body that way as I am sure it would have helped you. There is so much

to learn about this condition and SO confusing as we have seen in the last few

days here. Take care D

>

> Did Dr M treat fungal infection via his nasal spray? I went all the way out

there to see him and came home with the nasal spray and didn't get

that...thought it was treating my sinuses and I had no sinus symptoms, so

perhaps I didn't understand his treatment and should have asked more questions.

I never used the nasal spray. Kept it in my refrigerator in case I got sinus

symptoms.

>

> >

>

January 14, 2010

Try calling Abrahms Royal Pharmacy in Dallas and see if they can compound that

for you. Here are their contact numbers. D

214-349-800

800-458-0804

>

> In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:30:34 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> kmtown2003@... writes:

>

> And where are we getting it?? Inquireing minds want to know. the Pharmacy

> on the recipe said its not making it

>

> Good question. Have to find another compounding lab, I guess. Seems like

> that would be a job for a mold treating physician who always respected Dr.

> M's work. (hint, hint)

>

> Sharon

>

January 14, 2010

understand that when I included possable further damage of infected CSF coming

out my ears and nose that it also ran down the back of my throat. it burned bad.

I cant seperate exactually what was causeing more damage the exposure or this.

what I do know is I dont breath through my ears and they hurt too. they are very

sensitive now just like the rest of my organs, so I fell strongly that organ

damage does play a big role here.maybe more so if this happens. I looked at this

fluid several times, it continued to get more and more, flowing. it was clear

with white streaks in it. it wasn't sticky, more like water. now I'm open to

other experts opinions on this but I was treated for runny nose and ear ackes by

my doc and it had no effect.

I did a major amount of research on this and I know it can happen.

the amount of fluid encreased,from a drip to running, that happens with

meningitis when it's not getting reconized.

weather it happened by way of BBB breakdown or nasal ? cant say,

one clue might be the fact that these glands? cant think of it now behind my

ears would swell my ears shut while in the house causing more fluid to come out

my nose and when I went outside this swelling would quickly go down and allow

more fluid to go out my ears. it was running down my neck before I got out of

there.

now I would have to go refresh myself on these things behind the ears, not sure

if they are actually glands.

I finally found a good article on CSF rhinorehea <spelling that showed exactly

were the CSF leak can accure from the brain into the sinuses this showed the

exact same spot on the left above eye in the sinuses were my scans show somthing

which appears to be bone penatration and what looks to be a possable cyst or

something.

>

> >

> > Who's to say they didn't have liver problems before with out knowing it?Â

Or the other thing that Doug Haney always mentioned cirosis of the liver is

mold. Maybe they are confused with die off in the liver?? Â I know I spelled

that and spell check dosn't do medical

> >

>

January 14, 2010

I know a lot of people can't tolerate vinegar, but I always spray a little on my

toes after a shower or wash my feet with baking soda. I have also been told that

a good thing to try is rinsing the mouth with baking soda. Just the route I am

trying with out meds. I did the Diflican for 8 months years ago and was fine

with it, and was making some progress, but lost insurance so had to stop. Doing

the low carb diet but losing weight again. Just as long as I don't lose anymore.

I always had elevated WBC also.

>

> The regular doctors ran a ton of useless tests on me when I was

January 14, 2010

, I cant tolerate vinegar, but I did finally put baking soda in my socks

and walked around the house that way. I'm pretty confident that it was what

finally slowed this horrible sloughing of skin and fungal smell that was coming

out of my body through my feet.

it took a few weeks of doing this everyday, several times a day but I

finally got it under control. I did get a antifungal lotion for this but it

wasn't quite cutting it. thats another reason plus the fact that my fingers

where doing the same thing just not as bad, that I felt it was coming out from

my body.

> >

> > The regular doctors ran a ton of useless tests on me when I was

>

January 14, 2010

I find baking soda, and only plain ivory soap the best, and keep a box in the

shower, inside a plastic box.

The kids now use it for acne and less reliance on " liquid body wash " which is

expensive and whose fragrance bothers me. I go through about a pound box a week

and it is usually 2 boxes for a dollar so that is cheap.

It is a cheap " zit " remedy. They get it.

> > >

> > > The regular doctors ran a ton of useless tests on me when I was

> >

>

January 14, 2010

oh, thought I should add that heat might also be important with the baking soda

in socks. I used those thick winter socks to keep the baking soda from leaking

out. I tried to keep it mostly in the toe area sence that was the worst but it

well move around some too. my feet were also puting out some heat along with the

redness,skin sloughing and stink.

> > >

> > > The regular doctors ran a ton of useless tests on me when I was

> >

>

January 14, 2010

I've taken everyone's advise and switched from crow to eating

gopher. That way I still admit I may be wrong by eating something

disgusting, but not a total admission by not eating the crow!

The conversation has been a mixed bag of different drugs,

different words, different meanings, for different conditions, some

mold which originates inside the body and some which originates

outside the body, and drugs which function in different parts of

the body in different ways.

As a result I no longer know what an " anti-fungal " medication is.

Do they kill mold or yeast or affect the biological components of

the mold or the byproducts of the immune system? In the gut,

lungs, nose, sinus, blood stream, brain?

Nystatin cannot penetrate the mucus membrane so it only works

in the gut and it kills by direct contact. It does not work in the liver.

It is used to reduce the overgrowth of Candida. But when it kills

more toxins are released. Too much of that and you experience

Herxheimer reaction.

Nizoral and Diflucan are systemic, which means they do

penetrate the mucuos membrane and circulate through the blood

stream throughout the entire body, including the liver. They do

work in the liver and can affect the liver. Neither raised my liver

enzymes but I have friends who were severely affected by the

first prescription. I need Diflucan periodically even when I'm not

unduly exposed to mold. It has no noticeable benefit for when

when I do get exposed to mold. CSM is best for me but it is not

instantaneous. It takes several days to get it continuously through

the intestine so it can bind with the " stuff " in the bile and slowly

reduce the quantity of " stuff " in my body. Once the " stuff " is below

my personal threshold of reactivity, I feel better.

None of that works when I'm in a hotel with fragrance in the room,

on the carpet, and on the bedding and towels. Or in a plane with

dry air that's too hot or too cold or the water comes from the tank

in the plane (too much e-coli) instead of a bottle. And the

vibration causes me more harm than any of the above. I get

easily foggy and sick from vibration.

Nasal sprays will work in the nose and sinus. They may also get

into the blood stream and affect the liver but I don't know enough

to speculate beyond that.

Mold presence in the body - dead or alive - is different than mold

colonizing in the body. When it grows beyond the abililty of the

immune system to handle it that is an infection. Some infections

form colonies and some don't.

When the exposure of separate mold spores, fragments etc is

beyond the ability of the immune systemn to handle it that is not

an infection and is not a colonization. But it certainly is an

exposure. Drugs designed to affect infections and colonizations

probably won't work very well on large quantities which aren't

growing.

When the immune system interacts with mold, yeast, Candida,

etc there are waste products produced which the liver must get

rid of. If the liver can't for some reason then we could be free of

mold in the body but not the waste products. So we would

continue to be sick. That is my understanding of part of

Shoemaker's treatment and the role of CSM.

CSM is not limited to only immune waste, or even to toxins

directly from the mold itself. Remember, it was originally a

cholesterol reducing medication. It will remove whatever is in the

body which can combine with it.

In conclusion, different drugs affect different organisms in

different parts of the body in different ways resulting in different

effects in different people.

Different crows taste different to different people at different times

and sometimes different species of crows can't be caught or shot

so they can't be eaten. Gophers are one alternative to crow but

any source of protein which tastes yucky will do. Like liver. Or

cow brains. Or most diet shakes.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

January 15, 2010

Barb,

In your experience would nystatin be treating only a particular type of fungus?

With that in mind would patients at times have to go on a combination of

antifungals?

Sporanox, diflucan, lamisil: they all treat different types of fungus and in the

case of diflucan. Your response is probably more likely because they particular

mix of fungal load was more responsive to the Lamisil than to sporanox and if

yeast wasn't the main culprit, diflucan wouldn't have helped.

January 15, 2010

A question occurs to me that with all this possibly permanent damage caused by

mycotoxins, wouldn't they still be detectable after a long time away from the

environment? I'm guessing here that the brain and organ damage might in this

sense be irepairable regardless of whether or not the contaminants remained, but

would that also hold true for the sinuses, throat, etc that might be more easily

treatable? Or do the mycotoxins leave behind some other culprits as others have

stated like bacteria that continue the process of harm?

in a high dose exposure in a WDB when the amount of toxins overload the immune

system and the liver cant keep up the rate of detox needed not only does liver

disfunction accure but severe damage to the mucosa linings and possably

somewhere in the midsts of it all some type of infection might just cause

meningitis and brain swelling doing more damage to the brain,ears,sinuses,

throat,stomach, gi,bowels, kidney,liver ect.

the differences in what one may experience than another and disfunction vs.

permenant damage might vary like everything else.

January 15, 2010

Sharon,How long would the Nizoral keep you feeling clear headed? Would the

length of the positive effects vary? Thanks,Sam

Jeanine,

I can't say what will help others. I only know what helped me. When I

was having bad brain fog, I could take a hit of the Nizoral and within 15

minutes tell a major difference. I know there was a paper that was posted on

this board a year or so back about olfactory and breaching the blood-brain

barrier, that made a lot of sense to me.

Sharon

January 15, 2010

yep, colonization is not the right word to be useing. mold tring to grow in the

body and mold that has colonized in the body somewhere is not the same thing. I

do believe your immune system would have to be pretty non-functional for

colonization to accure, I also know most mold spores are big enough they might

not get much of anywhere but stuck in the mucus and into the stomach.

I thought it was pretty interesting how DON could cause the lining in the

stomach from basicly it's resistive state to a accomadating state

and allow passage through the stomach. it kindof leaves the door open to

consider how many things we are exposed to could affect us by getting places it

would not otherwise get. and with tissue damage how it might become things

trapped in tissues somewhere that could just keep causing problems,like cyst

type sores,ect. I dont know if you could really consider those colonization but

maybe,kindof in a way.

I dont know if you saw the clip on DON I well post it again.

it made me think of leaky gut syndrome.

yes the omentum is where those fat cells draws the toxins and whatever

that the liver doesn't denature the first time around, into the fat cells there

than recirulates them along with the fat from what I understand.so the omentum

grows as it collects more toxins and fat to store them. so yes,the livers not

doing its job and a sign of that is getting bigger around the stomch area,(also

known as beer gut).

so yes the CSM is needed or some form of binding to help with liver disfunction

but the binding by some metheds does cause constapation and for some there can

be problems with that. fiber is also a binder which could also help ,how you get

that fiber is going to also depend on what you can tolerate.

you know, they used to think the kindeys played more of a role in detoxing than

the liver but than relized it was the other way around.

I had trichothecene toxins in urine and a whole lot of dead white blood cells.

when I had poo analized for e-coli, it was noted that there was a high amount of

yeast there. ofcorse they didn't analize the yeast.

I kindof think that with liver disfunction/damage other parts of the body may

work harder to detox. ofcorse particle size would matter there too.

as far as antifungals, I dont know much about how they work as far as how they

denature fungas,mold,yeast,ect. I know differnt routes of how they are given can

include or exclude different areas of the body. I know some tiny particles can

get to the brain by inhalation and while some things get stuck in mucas and are

carried on to the stomach, some things make it to the lungs with the air.

depending on your mucas system, how well it functions or doesn't function could

change alot of things. some things can absorb through the mucas and into the

bloodstreams and may cause tissue damage along the way. just like damage to the

olfactory system and tracts and how bad that damage is could allow easier access

to the brain and I know theres damage to the point that it doesn't heal right

because I live with it. and just like anywhere else in your body where mucosa

linging and tissue damage has accured things can get where they usually dont get

without that damage. that itself could change the aspect of what can get where.

some think that leaky gut syndrome is a result of something causing the normal

protective mucosa lining to somehow allow things to get stuck in the tissue

along with some food particles which than could make you reactive to food with

that product in it and whatever else is there which could also included what

caused it to happen in the first place.

haveing dealt with this horriable gassy rolling stomach during my exposures and

have what was term as somekind of cyst/sore thing in my stomach kindof makes me

see a logic in that.

cyst type things have been found in kidneys and I think just about everypart of

the body and it usaully says cause unknown.

there are other type polyups/cysts like things that come and go and come again,

some from under the tissue, some growing on the tissue.

I kindof fell that these are ignored alot and rarely analized cultured or

anything else as they should be. how many are never even seen inless you have

that organ or that area of the body scaned.

>

> I've taken everyone's advise and switched from crow to eating

> gopher. That way I still admit I may be wrong by eating something

> disgusting, but not a total admission by not eating the crow!

>

January 15, 2010

Carl: Great post, informative yet entertaining! Thanks for clearing things up...

Diane

>

> I've taken everyone's advise and switched from crow to eating

> gopher. That way I still admit I may be wrong by eating something

> disgusting, but not a total admission by not eating the crow!

>

> The conversation has been a mixed bag of different drugs,

> different words, different meanings, for different conditions, some

> mold which originates inside the body and some which originates

> outside the body, and drugs which function in different parts of

> the body in different ways.

>

> As a result I no longer know what an " anti-fungal " medication is.

>

January 15, 2010

lol Carl! I think you know more than you let on but I can clear up only one

item, Candida is not the only yeast. Nystatin works on yeast in the gut and

Difflucan works on it systemically but not all yeast is Candida and Nystatin and

Difflucan don't work on all yeast but most common ones. Anyway, I'm sure you

knew that already. Otherwise it is too big a subject for me but glad you

changed your diet.

>

> I've taken everyone's advise and switched from crow to eating

> gopher. That way I still admit I may be wrong by eating something

> disgusting, but not a total admission by not eating the crow!

>

> The conversation has been a mixed bag of different drugs,

> different words, different meanings, for different conditions, some

> mold which originates inside the body and some which originates

> outside the body, and drugs which function in different parts of

> the body in different ways.

>

> As a result I no longer know what an " anti-fungal " medication is.

> Do they kill mold or yeast or affect the biological components of

> the mold or the byproducts of the immune system? In the gut,

> lungs, nose, sinus, blood stream, brain?

>

January 15, 2010

No. Toxins can do damage and then leave your body but damage is still there.

>

> A question occurs to me that with all this possibly permanent damage caused by

mycotoxins, wouldn't they still be detectable after a long time away from the

environment? I'm guessing here that the brain and organ damage might in this

sense be irepairable regardless of whether or not the contaminants remained, but

would that also hold true for the sinuses, throat, etc that might be more easily

treatable? Or do the mycotoxins leave behind some other culprits as others have

stated like bacteria that continue the process of harm?

>

January 15, 2010

mycotoxins are not the only toxins involved in WDB exposures.

I did not refer to mycotoxins, I said toxins.

mycotoxins have been detected in verious parts of the body with tissue

,biopsies,ect. but I guess you could say those are the ones that get stuck

somewhere for whatever reason.

but they are detected in urine and stool and if they are small enough to be

absorbed through the skin they very likely can leave by the same route. lots of

forms of detox.

sinus complacations are not always a easy fix, some surgerys have high risks of

having more problems than you began with.

patching holes through bones is problematic.

it depends on what sinuses problems you are refering to.

some cysts can be removed, more might come back or not.

some are from something in the tissue, under the tissue, or attached to the

tissue, some can be drained and might heal up some well return. theres several

different types.

the olfactory tracts are in the brain. some say the nose protrudes into the

brain some say the nose or pats of the nose protude from the brain. I have

problems with recalling words that I haven't used for awhile so I'd have to

refresh myself on the names of things involved to be able to get back into that

discusion. but I can tell you theres several things involved that have no easy

fixes and involve major surgery that may help or may make matters worse. no ones

doing any major surgery on my sinuses unless I'm convienced they have a good

understanding of everything involved there, what can happen, and what has

happened. theres a hudge difference in what some might concieve as chronic

sinusitis, rhinosinusitis and damage to the plate that I cant think of the word

for and olfactory bulb and tract damage.

>

> A question occurs to me that with all this possibly permanent damage caused by

mycotoxins, wouldn't they still be detectable after a long time away from the

environment? I'm guessing here that the brain and organ damage might in this

sense be irepairable regardless of whether or not the contaminants remained, but

would that also hold true for the sinuses, throat, etc that might be more easily

treatable? Or do the mycotoxins leave behind some other culprits as others have

stated like bacteria that continue the process of harm?

>

January 15, 2010

Sam, I think they are more likely to take different antifungals, one after the

other, than both at the same time.

Nystatin treats yeast only, in the gi system, mouth and thoroughout gi tract.

Yeast is a particular type of fungus that is common in everyone but sometimes we

get too much of it. Since yeast is a fungus also, nystatin is considered an

antifungal too. I don't know if you can take more than one antifungal at once

but I haven't. Many antifungals may also kill some types of yeast also. I

have heard of doctors combining *antibiotics and nystatin because antibiotics

can kill off, not only bad bacteria, but also the beneficial bacteria in your gi

system and then a yeast overgrowth can happen. Therefore some doctors will give

some Nystatin at same time as antiobiotic to prevent yeast from overgrowing

during antibiotic treatment. That's all I know...

> Sporanox, diflucan, lamisil: they all treat different types of fungus and in

the case of diflucan. Your response is probably more likely because they

particular mix of fungal load was more responsive to the Lamisil than to

sporanox and if yeast wasn't the main culprit, diflucan wouldn't have helped.

>

January 15, 2010

unlikely that anyones going to suffer from WDB exposure with out some yeast

infections.

> >

> > I've taken everyone's advise and switched from crow to eating

> > gopher. That way I still admit I may be wrong by eating something

> > disgusting, but not a total admission by not eating the crow!

> >

> > The conversation has been a mixed bag of different drugs,

> > different words, different meanings, for different conditions, some

> > mold which originates inside the body and some which originates

> > outside the body, and drugs which function in different parts of

> > the body in different ways.

> >

> > As a result I no longer know what an " anti-fungal " medication is.

> > Do they kill mold or yeast or affect the biological components of

> > the mold or the byproducts of the immune system? In the gut,

> > lungs, nose, sinus, blood stream, brain?

> >

>

January 16, 2010

Good question. It varied as I became better. When I was at my sickest, I

remember days when I was using it about every two hours and would feel

relief each time. As I started to get better, seems like a shot or two would

clear my head within about 15 minutes and I didn't use it again until the

next time I felt fuzzy - could be days.

Sharon

In a message dated 1/15/2010 12:30:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

yaddayadda53@... writes:

Sharon,How long would the Nizoral keep you feeling clear headed? Would the

length of the positive effects vary? Thanks,Tha

January 16, 2010

Thanks Barb,I guess I'm thinking of issues that have been addressed by various

members where they have done any number of things to detox (please forgive if

this blanket term is not correct), from medications to saunas and still after

months or even longer they developed new or different symptoms. No doubt, I'm

not understanding much here. But I'd just assume that something was left in the

body that was causing further damage despite the help, improvment and in some

cases notable lowering of test results. Do you or does anyone have any

thoughts?Thanks.

No. Toxins can do damage and then leave your body but damage is still there.

January 16, 2010

Barb,

Thanks very much. That was really helpful and clarified things enough for me to

talk with this new Doc we're going to see. Speaking of antibiotics, would you or

anyone on the list know if antibioitics would interefere with testing for mold

or mycotoxins? Anyone know about that? Are there any supplements or medications

one needs to avoid for those tests as well?

Thanks again,Sam

From: barb b w <barb1283@...>

Subject: [] Re: Allergist says no

Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 9:46 PM

Sam, I think they are more likely to take different antifungals, one after

the other, than both at the same time.