Re: Re: Empathy

[Guest guest]

Verleen wrote:

> Bill, <grin>, a picture popped into my head when I read what you

> wrote. I pictured an AS man walking on the pier and seeing another

> person fall into the water and begin to drown. The AS man keeps

> walking on, but feels really bad about the man drowning. Verleen

Interesting (I think...) <grinning back>

Why ever would *that* picture pop into your head?

Aspergian to the core: I'm afraid I don't understand the

connections. Would you (or anyone - I'm NOT challenging you) care to try

explaining?

>

>>> Bill,

>>>

>>> Even though it's not a criterion, a significant lack of empathy is a

>>> common trait. Correct?

>> No. That is, *some* people say it's common. I don't.

>> I stand behind my first response to you. We *do* have strong enough

>> empathies. Just, many of us don't **display** it very well -- from an

>> NT's point-of-view.

[ snip ]

- Bill, 76, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

People with AS often stand out in their desire to make friends and spouses and have social interaction.

the hallmark of As is a failure in social learning and social awareness.

this can be described in many different ways and hence the analysis of the diagnostic criteria and "lack of empathy" description.

however to avoid confusion, we can discuss the lack of empathy description in another way.

lets call it egocentrism.

this is a resulting lack of consideration for others.

this self absorption and disregard for others can be seen and described as Narcissism.

but there is an important difference.

The self absorption an dlack of disregard for others is not like the strategy that a normal selfish person may use according to what is currently in their best interests.

As egocentricity by contrast appears to be non-deliberate and not determined by what may currently be in the best interests of the individual.

this egocentricity may appear to manifest itself in an inability to put themselves in another persons shoes and imagine what their actions look and feel like from anothers point of view.

and this is where others describe as lacking in empathy.

so egocentricity can be described as and appears to be manifested in lack of empathy.

the perception is that it is deliberate and this is what annoys so many.

the perception is that it ( egocentricity)is for the As individuals own desires to be met at the expens eof others and the perception and often confusion with narcissism.

37 m diagnosed AS

[Guest guest]

Hello--

My opinion is that we all are able to make the connectionss, some early, some late.

If I was to be raised with mother only, without my fathers INFLUENCE at all. I would have never done well, never!

I spent more of the time with her (mother) in life, but my father, even from "afar" guided me. It was his influence and teachings the one that helped me.

Explanation and the conscious effort of an individual to take the time to think an emotion is in a way a clue to making a path to get the connections going.

I am still trying to make the connection in the "love" are of my life. I am very affectionate and emotional, and all those things that make the other person feel good....... and which I also love. Yet getting the right message to the other person on my intentions, and who I truly am is still poses a problem for me. I am usually misinterpreted unless, I am vocal and explain my intentions.

I have found more NT without empathy than I have AS. Some Aspies might show empathy i a different way, trying to solve a problem instead of focusing in the broken heart of the person. In many of Aspies views, the empathy would be shown if the problem is solved and the person should be appreciative and happy of this.

In my case, if I want to show empathy, this is what I do....... I give a hug, and also talk sincerely form the heart, yet I also try to show solutions for a situation.

It is only fair, and needed. What good will empathy do only if the only thing I do is to hug and cry too, and not try to help solve a problem. In any case, doing both, show empathy and also love!

connections can be made, but there has to be a honest and "trust" of the persons trying to understand and make the connections. It takes a whole lot of efforts and hard work, but it is doable!.

.

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[Guest guest]

Regarding this empathy discussion..

"lack of empathy" is a term that appears on every piece of AS literature we have ever received or read online.

Whether it's true for everyone or not is obviously up for grabs, but I think it's a trait that has been noticed (or interpreted) by enough researchers to make it into the distributed literature.

Myself, I definitely had zero empathy for most of my life. For me the reason was that the connections we all talk about in our brains had not been made yet. I could reason things out and I had feelings, but they were disconnected until my late 20's (very late 20's). We the connection finally did get plugged in, I had overwhelming feelings for many situations in the news and everywhere around me. It was the first time I was able to grieve for my grandmother. I started understanding the way people felt in different situations. I had to stop watching action movies for a while because I could feel the broken arm or whatever almost as it it were my own.

I don't know the science, and I don't necessarily believe what I read despite my experience being in line with it, but this has been my experience.. take it for what it's worth....

Usarian

[Guest guest]

Usarian wrote:

> Regarding this empathy discussion..

>

> " lack of empathy " is a term that appears on every piece of AS

> literature we have ever received or read online.

>

> Whether it's true for everyone or not is obviously up for grabs, but

> I think it's a trait that has been noticed (or interpreted) by enough

> researchers to make it into the distributed literature.

It is true of all.

I go as far as saying that if non verbal communication works normally

that person cannot be Autistic, is fundamental to meaning of the word

Autistic.

Many perhaps most people misunderstand the meaning of empathy.

Autism has a meaning in separate, empathy has a meaning in oneness.

Having written that I checked the web to find helpful definitions, but

had a shock. Someone else got there first.

http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-Separateness-Individual-Louise-Kaplan/dp/068485406\

6

I note the book was written in 1978, before so much was known about

Autism, the book is not about Autism but about baby development, how a

baby turns into an NT. This is a transition we never make.

Seems this is a thumping great clue, touching on the grist.

[Guest guest]

>the book is not about Autism but about baby development, how ababy turns into an NT. This is a transition we never make.

Well, I wouldn't say NEVER. those who never make it just either aren't trying, haven't figured out how quite yet, or haven't been helped appropriately for the most part.. esp. for high functioning adults.

I would say almost everyone on this list has made that transition.

BUT I do agree that it is a developmental issue in some respect. For me it has been and for my kids on the spectrum it has been described as non-uniform development.. excessive development in few areas instead of a general development across many areas, with the areas of active development switching around from time to time.

[Guest guest]

Usarian,

Thanks for posting this! I am glad that I am not the only one. I have read in a few places that we are developmentally delayed but not arrested, and that growth occurs across the lifespan. I find that I can feel things that others feel, this year, that I could not do even a few months ago. Are you able to watch action movies again?

Subject: Re: Re: EmpathyTo: aspires-relationships Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 8:53 AM

Regarding this empathy discussion..

"lack of empathy" is a term that appears on every piece of AS literature we have ever received or read online.

Whether it's true for everyone or not is obviously up for grabs, but I think it's a trait that has been noticed (or interpreted) by enough researchers to make it into the distributed literature.

Myself, I definitely had zero empathy for most of my life. For me the reason was that the connections we all talk about in our brains had not been made yet. I could reason things out and I had feelings, but they were disconnected until my late 20's (very late 20's). We the connection finally did get plugged in, I had overwhelming feelings for many situations in the news and everywhere around me. It was the first time I was able to grieve for my grandmother. I started understanding the way people felt in different situations. I had to stop watching action movies for a while because I could feel the broken arm or whatever almost as it it were my own.

I don't know the science, and I don't necessarily believe what I read despite my experience being in line with it, but this has been my experience.. take it for what it's worth....

Usarian

[Guest guest]

Princess > I find that I can feel things that others feel, this year, that I could not do even a few months ago. >Are you able to watch action movies again?

Absolutely! I'm watching Kung Fu Panda right now!

No problem with the fighting scenes at all.

Usarian

...though I am thinking about Raman noodles a bit excessively..

[Guest guest]

david bailey wrote:

> People with AS often stand out in their desire to make friends and

> spouses and have social interaction.

>

> the hallmark of As is a failure in social learning and social awareness.

>

> this can be described in many different ways and hence the analysis of

> the diagnostic criteria and " lack of empathy " description.

[ snip ]

> lets call it egocentrism.

>

> this is a resulting lack of consideration for others.

*Appears* to be a lack of...??

>

> this self absorption and disregard for others can be seen and described

> as Narcissism.

>

> but there is an important difference.

>

> The self absorption an dlack of disregard for others is not like the

> strategy that a normal selfish person may use according to what is

> currently in their best interests.

I'll assume the above statement should be:

The self absorption and lack of *regard* for others is not like the

strategy that a normal selfish person may use according to what is

currently in their best interests.

>

> As egocentricity by contrast appears to be non-deliberate and not

> determined by what may currently be in the best interests of the individual.

I'll assume that statement should be:

*AS* egocentricity by contrast appears to be non-deliberate and not

determined by what may currently be in the best interests of the

individual.

Again, " appears " is key.

>

> this egocentricity may appear to manifest itself in an inability to put

> themselves in another persons shoes and imagine what their actions look

> and feel like from anothers point of view.

>

> and this is where others describe as lacking in empathy.

>

> so egocentricity can be described as and appears to be manifested in

> lack of empathy.

[ snip ]

There's another way to look at this. Like many AS, I too have been

accused: " Pretty egocentric, isn't it? " Some ways it is; but in one

important way actually it isn't.

There are a great many things I know nothing about. But my cognitive

style allows me to remember a huge array of (seemingly) unrelated facts

and events.

When I'm problem solving, a quite automatic ?process? " sifts through "

those " unrelated " things *and* puts relevant ones together in

?useful? ways.

In an instant, I *do* know " something " , albeit maybe incomplete in some

degree. This becomes my baseline-of-the-moment: ALL the things I know

pertinent to the matter at hand.

It allows me also " in an instant " to see what are the things I *don't

know* (that are relevant). And as well, I see things the " other " guy

doesn't know either, or at least hasn't mentioned; and which of them

might be wrong.

From this usually I can synthesize a " solution " for the matter at hand.

Often it's a/the " right " one. Not only my opinion; it's often

attested by everyone else.

But of course it's not an endearing quality, is it, ...always to be

Right. And the very *speed* of the process, apparently off-hand or even

careless, merely reinforces the opprobrium: " pretty egocentric... " .

But it's not. It's something else altogether.

For me, it starts with not knowing where and how to start. Not

knowing *enough* about the matter at hand. It's being " at sea " ,

....*confused*!

For that instant.

Always then, as a matter of *self-protection*, I go " back to basics " .

Back to the only TRULY dependable thing in my life: my mind and what it

contains.

Not from a desire to " one-up " the other guy, it's more a fear

reaction. ...Being in an unaccustomed place *without a clue* what to do

or say.

This is a *defensive* posture. Successful *only* because my less common

cognitive style is coupled with a reasonably agile mind.

From this, to repeat: ...usually I can synthesize a " solution " for the

matter at hand.

Delivered of course with the " certainty " bred of so often in the past

being right, ...even though initially scared of being wrong.

Now an adult, ...educated, trained and " wise in the ways of the world " ,

I've learned to " display " better. Less often now do others accuse me of

being egocentric. Yet the *deeply-rooted process* remains.

I suspect this scenario is common among AS.

- Bill, 76, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm