Re: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

[Guest guest]

,

I am not too sure if this qualifies, but the Anti-Defamation league of B'Nai Brith has repeatedly made just this kind of statement about the American Nazi party, back in the day. I agreed with them then, and agree with them now, beucase what the American Nazi Party was advocating was the annihilation of all the Jews. As the US Supremem Court ruled, free speech does not give you the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, and endanger human lives in the rocess (Clear and Present Danger Doctrine- I am sure can tell us far more about other applications and limitations).

There are groups which call for the civil rights of autistic people to be curtailed- while I don't really think that the architects of this petition meant the "silence" statement as global, though it does read that way, I think they did mean, be silent about teaching others in an official capacity that people on the spectrum should not have the right to a fair hearing in a matter of this type. I believe that this is abuse of authority, and no longer a free speech issue, just as a teacher cannot get in front of a classroom, and teach his or her class to be racist, at least in any public school (wee hope). If this happens, then in that capacity, parents and others will call for the teacher to keep silent, as a teacher. The people making these statements are not just lay people, but professionals in the capacity of their professions in fields where they are supposed to be helping people on the spectrum and not harming them.

I am glad that you have read this petition: I would love to see it reworded to make it more clear. I don't think anyone objects to a person's venting to a friend, or posting something privately as a personal opinion, but more to the offering of seminars to teach court personnel to discriminate. I do know the people who have written it (or think I do), and cannot imagine that they mean to make people as people be silent.

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 4:03:50 AMSubject: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

PS:

My reaction to this petition was a knee jerk reaction as I believe support groups are in place to support those going through similar circumstances.

The NS population if there is one is not building hate groups but like Helen has said, if the shoe fits, than you need to wear it or something similar. <Wink>

How many times does U see NS organizations demanding that "any" AS group be silenced as a hate group? They normally just ignore them and move FF with their cause as we just want answers or support to move FF in our lives.

There is a difference having AS and living with it and the bad stories are NO reflection on those with AS. Like Edgar, many of you are living the good life and positive role models in "our" community.. You lead by example.

Just me.

[Guest guest]

,

I read the petition, and knew that it had language that was somehow too strong for what is in it. I think it should have addressed the specific points more clearly, and not used the kind of language it did.

OTOH, if the group were trying to argue that it were a white supremacy "support group", and that when there were disputes between white and black people in court, then the black person should be automatically discriminated against because (give any reason you like!), then wouldn't we call it a hate gropup?

Is it really OK to take up this position against people who have a disability or a difference, and not judge things by one case at a time?

I wrote to Tony Attwood months ago, and he wrote back, stating that he does not agreee with this, as Ron and others told me he would. I asked, and he said I could share his views with people on this list. As I do, he thinks it should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

I believe that Linehan and others are being unfair to publicise conferences and organizations as standing for a view such as this one, and then using Tony's name (as a speaker, for example) to promote it by association, so that people take the inference that he believes that. He does not. I will try to find the letters (I have two of them), and forward them to you off-list.

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 4:03:50 AMSubject: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

PS:

My reaction to this petition was a knee jerk reaction as I believe support groups are in place to support those going through similar circumstances.

The NS population if there is one is not building hate groups but like Helen has said, if the shoe fits, than you need to wear it or something similar. <Wink>

How many times does U see NS organizations demanding that "any" AS group be silenced as a hate group? They normally just ignore them and move FF with their cause as we just want answers or support to move FF in our lives.

There is a difference having AS and living with it and the bad stories are NO reflection on those with AS. Like Edgar, many of you are living the good life and positive role models in "our" community. You lead by example.

Just me.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm not but inartul as the petition may be, I find this turn to be just wonderful : ). I don't have any problem with this group saying to Tony, in esesence, we will not continue to put our financial, and word of mouth, group support behind you if you continue to try to please everyone and not take a stand agains these hard liners who are basically maligning HFA and AS persons in relationships without science or professionalism in my view. I don't know if linehan is still a member of this list -- she was -- but you will remember that when I went on record long ago with a point by point rebuttal of one of her articles and there was also rebuttal by another of our valued aspires member, against one of papers that I thought was without merit and harmful, she threatened to sue you if youdidn't remove our rebuttal articles! And we said, we don't need you unpaid nonprofit leader of Aspires to have to deal with crap right now so go ahead and take it down, our point was already made and our rebuttals read. So if anyone wants to squelch the 1st amendment it is that group and i have no problem seeing someone say, hey Tony, we helped MAKE you the renowned and well compensated public speaker that you are, you had better get real about some of these issues, or lose our support.

(smiling broadly at this petition)

From The Autistic Self Advocacy

Hi :

Thanks for your kind words. Let me run something by you. Is it not this group’s interest saying if you do not disassociate yourself with groups we considered hateful to our cause that is protected under our 1st Amendment in the USA but does not apply to US, we will continue to lobby against you??? Maybe I am reading this wrong? Are they not doing the same thing with this petition? My way or the Highway which reinforces what the other side has said all along????????

[Guest guest]

,

Well-stated. In fact, ASAN gets involved in dialogue with plenty of groups they do not agree with. One of their members, a Durbin-Westby, regulsrly presents before the IACC, where Autism Speaks has heavy influence, for example. What ASAN is objecting to is the implied agreement that Attwood, Hennault, and others lend to the opinions of Lenihan and others, when they speak at these meetings, and do not publicly state their positions on matters such as these, so that people who do not know believe that these experts agree with Lenihan. I had no idea that Lenihan used to be on this list: i am not surprised she did not stay.

Thanks,

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:42:59 AMSubject: Re: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

Hi ,

I'm not but inartul as the petition may be, I find this turn to be just wonderful : ). I don't have any problem with this group saying to Tony, in esesence, we will not continue to put our financial, and word of mouth, group support behind you if you continue to try to please everyone and not take a stand agains these hard liners who are basically maligning HFA and AS persons in relationships without science or professionalism in my view. I don't know if linehan is still a member of this list -- she was -- but you will remember that when I went on record long ago with a point by point rebuttal of one of her articles and there was also rebuttal by another of our valued aspires member, against one of papers that I thought was without merit and harmful, she threatened to sue you if youdidn't remove our rebuttal articles! And we said, we don't need you unpaid nonprofit leader of Aspires to have

to deal with crap right now so go ahead and take it down, our point was already made and our rebuttals read. So if anyone wants to squelch the 1st amendment it is that group and i have no problem seeing someone say, hey Tony, we helped MAKE you the renowned and well compensated public speaker that you are, you had better get real about some of these issues, or lose our support.

(smiling broadly at this petition)

[aspires-relationsh ips] From The Autistic Self Advocacy

Hi :

Thanks for your kind words. Let me run something by you. Is it not this group’s interest saying if you do not disassociate yourself with groups we considered hateful to our cause that is protected under our 1st Amendment in the USA but does not apply to US, we will continue to lobby against you??? Maybe I am reading this wrong? Are they not doing the same thing with this petition? My way or the Highway which reinforces what the other side has said all along??????? ?

[Guest guest]

linda said:

:

Thanks for your kind words. Let me run something by you. Is it not this group’s interest saying if you do not disassociate yourself with groups we considered hateful to our cause that is protected under our 1st Amendment in the USA but does not apply to US, we will continue to lobby against you??? Maybe I am reading this wrong? Are they not doing the same

thing with this petition? My way or the Highway which reinforces what the other side has said all along??????? ?

me here:

i think a lot of americans would be very annoyed to discover that the 1st amendment

doesnt apply to non US countries.

censorship occurs on this site with moderation of posts, it is why i dont post as much any more.

37 m diagnosed AS tasting irony

[Guest guest]

Newland wrote:

>

> /Well Tony is in the hot seat now and the center of this petition. Now

> we wait for his reason or maybe he will place his head in the sand or do

> what he should of done years ago and that is to take a stance and stick

> with it regardless of his position and not trying to be politically

> correct and please both sides. It is not like organizations have not

> lobbied him as he has been on the fence for too long. What is it Tony?

> What is your *real* position on AS/NT relationships?/

>

> /Just my humble opinion/

Ah, . I wish you'd not taken that petition's words so much to

heart. Think about it a little longer. Exactly *who* gains?

There's *much* more here than meets the eye.

I was one of the very first members of " ASAN " , before it had a name

even. Young Ari Ne'eman was on the move. He had a cause and plainly

was going to use it for career gain. Before he even *had* a career.

I watched what he did, and how he did it, for a fair time. Then

" left the fold " because I saw a demagogue in the making.

He hasn't disappointed. I've watched him since, from afar as it were,

and find precious little in what I see to change my mind. He's a very,

_very_ *smart* guy with an agenda. A personal agenda.

The trick is to wrap one's personal agenda in a cause that a particular

group can't disagree with. ALL demagogues do that: Smoke and mirrors.

Then rally those people (who believe it *is*, after all, a " Pretty Good

Cause " ) as troops to attack people (The Others) who've " strayed from the

righteous path " and sullied their " purity " thereby. ...Also thereby

" justifying " the attack against them. Their fault, right??

Of course Life is more complicated than that.

Much as I dislike Autism Speaks and their ilk, I'm *glad* Attwood is

involved with them. He carries some real science with him, injecting it

where there was (and still is) precious little.

And he infuses a kinder, gentler, *different* point of view into an

organization (and people). Which and who once were almost viciously

single-minded in their anti-autistic stances.

But never mind that.

The aim is to bring down Somebody Big. Doing so enhances one's

personal visibility and adds another line to one's own CV.

suggested the petition might be " unartful " . I think it is

thoughtfully brazen. Ari is nobody's fool.

Be careful people, ...you may get more from Ari than you bargain for.

- Bill, dx AS/autistic

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I should admit here, I didn't actually read the whole petition or very closely... I was just reacting gleefully to someone pointing out that FAAAS is an unscientific group that does not deserve its "esteem" in the autism community with the "spokespersons" it has. Having just read the petition carefully, I have to sadly say that I think because it IS written so inartfully it gives Tony Attwood an excellent basis to refute it and to make the writer sound like a zealot trying to squelch free speech himself... so it will probably have the opposite effect it intends upon thoughtful readers. Ah, well. I think our articles were much more effective if I do say so myself <G>.

Re: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

Newland wrote:> > /Well Tony is in the hot seat now and the center of this petition. Now > we wait for his reason or maybe he will place his head in the sand or do > what he should of done years ago and that is to take a stance and stick > with it regardless of his position and not trying to be politically > correct and please both sides. It is not like organizations have not > lobbied him as he has been on the fence for too long. What is it Tony? > What is your *real* position on AS/NT relationships?/> > /Just my humble opinion/Ah, . I wish you'd not taken that petition's words so much to heart. Think about it a little longer. Exactly *who* gains?There's *much* more here than meets the eye.I was one of the very first members of "ASAN", before it had a name even. Young Ari Ne'eman was on the move. He had a cause and plainly was going to use it for career gain. Before he even *had* a career.I watched what he did, and how he did it, for a fair time. Then "left the fold" because I saw a demagogue in the making.He hasn't disappointed. I've watched him since, from afar as it were, and find precious little in what I see to change my mind. He's a very, _very_ *smart* guy with an agenda. A personal agenda.The trick is to wrap one's personal agenda in a cause that a particular group can't disagree with. ALL demagogues do that: Smoke and mirrors.Then rally those people (who believe it *is*, after all, a "Pretty Good Cause") as troops to attack people (The Others) who've "strayed from the righteous path" and sullied their "purity" thereby. ...Also thereby "justifying" the attack against them. Their fault, right??Of course Life is more complicated than that.Much as I dislike Autism Speaks and their ilk, I'm *glad* Attwood is involved with them. He carries some real science with him, injecting it where there was (and still is) precious little.And he infuses a kinder, gentler, *different* point of view into an organization (and people). Which and who once were almost viciously single-minded in their anti-autistic stances.But never mind that.The aim is to bring down Somebody Big. Doing so enhances one's personal visibility and adds another line to one's own CV. suggested the petition might be "unartful". I think it is thoughtfully brazen. Ari is nobody's fool.Be careful people, ...you may get more from Ari than you bargain for.- Bill, dx AS/autistic-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Newland showed me the petition yesterday and asked me " How can

this unite our community? "

I began my response by saying, wow, that's a really good question! I

said that I would also post my reply to the list later on, when I'd

had time to edit it. So here it is - complete with typos and all -

since I gotta go to work soon <smile!>

I read the petition and I am left with more questions than answers.

Did Rodman *really* say that autistic children should not

attend public schools? If she did, was she talking about severely

autistic children (who are often mentally retarded as well) or is she

talking about your garden variety AS - like the members on this list,

and some of their children? If that was the case, how would members

have felt if their children had been forced into special needs

schools instead of mainstreamed? I find it hard to believe

Rodman would really have said that though; surely someone in the

autistic advocacy camp would have flagged this up years ago if she had.

I did spend a *lot* of time in the classroom as a volunteer, and

there are some children - not necessarily autistic but with

significant challenges, that would have REALLY been better served in

a different setting than on over-crowded, regular public school classroom.

Most school districts have inadequate funding to deal with these

children in a regular setting. So they are in the regular population,

with inadequate supervision, severely over stimulated in the noisy

environment, they act out, sometimes assaulting classmates, but

sadly, more often than not, ridiculed and sometimes physically

bullied by classmates. Having witnessed this first hand, I honestly

didn't see these severely mentally handicapped children learned

functional behavior from the NT kids around them, and the NT kids

certainly didn't gain compassion and understanding by watching the

profoundly mentally handicapped child acting out in very inappropriate ways.

Ari Ne'eman (of ASAN, and presumably the author or co-author of this

petition) is a very intelligent young man and I really do support

what he is doing in general. He always struck me as a more

mainstream, reasoned voice in the autistic self advocacy camp. I

would need to re-read the petition a few times, but my impression is

that ASAN is recognizing the good work of Attwood and Henault but

criticizing their support of bad science.

As far as I am concerned, even as there are those in the autistic

self advocacy movement who say " Autism Speaks " does not speak for

them, I certainly feel that there are some in the autism self

advocacy movement that *don't* speak to me, nor do I feel they speak

for the most severely impacted members of our community. So in the

autistic self advocacy world, compared to say, Dawson who

intervened in a Canadian court case where parents were seeking to get

ABA treatment for their autistic son and she was arguing against

that, I view Ne'eman and ASAN as being moderate.

That being said, it's very probable that more homework - and

judicious editing - needed to be done on this petition before it was

circulated. In its present form it is probably inaccurate in places,

inflammatory in places, and could be seen as divisive, so it weakens

the overall validity and intended impact of the petition. I don't

like that it seems to challenge Tony Attwood and Maxine Aston to take

sides. Never a good idea unless you are willing to live with the

outcome. They are on *our* side so this is really *not* good idea.

But having said all that, and in spite of the petition's many flaws,

I support the sentiment behind it. Just better luck next time! <smile!>

Now, there is undeniably a dark side to high functioning autism. But

you don't get an " up close and personal " perspective from those

members of our community that are severely afflicted. Many are non

verbal. Asperger and ASD web-sites, forums, etc., even those that are

exclusively for ASDs only, are represented by the members of highest

functioning end of the autism spectrum.

Occasionally the list is joined by a more dysfunctional member, but

the list owners have to take into consideration the safety of the

membership in general, as well as the safety of that particular

member. Some of the more profoundly afflicted members become over

stimulated, confused and agitated by reading the posts, and feel they

need to respond to every post. They may disclose information that

puts themselves at risk as is the case with one unfortunate autistic

woman who has been removed from any forums, but, the next time she

escapes the attention of her care givers, posts personal information

on more forums. Some stalk other members off-list. Other members may

open themselves to legal liability by attacking public figures with

erroneous statements as did once happen here on ASPIRES. Fortunately

no one got sued, but it was a risk not worth taking!

The bottom line here is the representation on the autistic side of AS

and ASD forums is rather one sided in favour of law abiding and

functional. So sometimes, we tend to equate autism with the highest

functioning end, and we forget, or at least want to forget, that our

more severely impacted brethren *can* pose risks in the community and

they *are* a considerable and often terrible responsibility to their

family members, and that those families who live with the dark side

of autism need a community, and support, too!

Now, addressing the issue of the Florida case and all similar cases

before this, my biggest concern with " the AS made me do it " legal

defence is that AS and other ASDs in and of themselves will become

pathologized and everyone in our population will be considered " at

risk " of violent crimes. That is very untrue, and I don't agree with

using AS as a legal defence. I can't blame the lawyers for *trying* a

" Twinkie Defense " ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense )

but judges are correct in disallowing AS as a contributing factor.

There are many contributing factors that lead to a person, whether AS

or NT, to committing crimes. A good starting point, obviously, is

that for whatever the innumerable reasons, the criminal is " missing

something " really big, there is something very significant that they

just don't " get. " They might have been abused as children. They might

have hit their heads on the pavement when skateboarding as a child.

They might have FAS, and so on. But whatever the reason, society

needs to be protected from people like this! So I'm saying, yes,

there is a dark side to AS, just as there is a dark side to many

human conditions, but AS, in and of itself is NOT an excuse and

should never be an excuse when crimes are committed. Other factors,

such as the person's ability to use critical thinking may be

impaired, and psychological tests might bear that out, just as they

might for a mentally handicapped NT individual. But AS as the

mitigating factor - NO.

The issue with the petition is a slightly separate one - at least as

far as I can tell ASAN wasn't trying to connect Cassandra with the

newest " AS made me do it " legal defense in Florida. And I am sure

that the autistic community will rise up quickly and speak out

against this legal defense, just as they have concerning similar court cases.

Somehow I don't think ASAN would target ASPIRES, unless the direction

ASPIRES were to take would be one that is openly critical of ASAN.

ASPIRES, as Newland envisioned it and continues to guide it

along, is a very moderate group and it's also one of the policies of

ASPIRES to limit discussions on very political topics. When the

discussion does become polarized, at that point members are

encouraged to take it off list and/or look for groups dedicated to

that line of discussion. I think most people in the autism community,

regardless of what side they are on, recognize ASPIRES as a site that

provides balanced information and exists to promote understanding

between both sides.

- Helen

(54, self dx'd AS, dx'd ADD)

[Guest guest]

D. Pawliczek wrote:

>

> I should admit here, I didn't actually read the whole petition or very

> closely... I was just reacting gleefully to someone pointing out that

> FAAAS is an unscientific group that does not deserve its " esteem " in the

> autism community with the " spokespersons " it has. Having just read the

> petition carefully, I have to sadly say that I think because it IS

> written so inartfully it gives Tony Attwood an excellent basis to refute

Yes. It steers Attwood and others in the direction ASAN/Ne'eman wants

to go.

> it and to make the writer sound like a zealot trying to squelch free

> speech himself... so it will probably have the opposite effect it

> intends upon thoughtful readers.

Yes. ...On *thoughtful* readers. Not all readers are.

> Ah, well. I think our articles were

> much more effective if I do say so myself <G>.

Artful or otherwise, *IF* Attwood responds - engages in *any* sort of

dialog with ASAN/Ne'eman - the petition's *real* goal is achieved:

ASAN/Ne'eman is legitimized; worthy of playing with the Big Boys, and a

Force to be Reckoned with.

It's one way demagogues get traction: Ad hominem attacks.

" Unartful " vs. " brazen " isn't important.

Arguing over *our* words just diverts attention from *the petition's*

modus operandi and its *real goal*: ASAN/Ne'eman self-aggrandizement.

> * Re: From The Autistic Self Advocacy

>

> Newland wrote:

> > /Well Tony is in the hot seat now and the center of this petition. Now

> > we wait for his reason or maybe he will place his head in the sand or do

> > what he should of done years ago and that is to take a stance

[ snip ]

> Ah, . I wish you'd not taken that petition's words so much to

> heart. Think about it a little longer. Exactly *who* gains?

>

> There's *much* more here than meets the eye.

[ snip ]

> But never mind that.

> The aim is to bring down Somebody Big. Doing so enhances one's

> personal visibility and adds another line to one's own CV.

>

> suggested the petition might be " unartful " . I think it is

> thoughtfully brazen. Ari is nobody's fool.

>

> Be careful people, ...you may get more from Ari than you bargain for.

>

> - Bill, dx AS/autistic

- Bill

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

At 08:53 AM 4/20/2009, wrote:

>Helen:

>FAAAS has NEVER focused on kids. Their plight has been partners of

>NS/AS relationships. This is misinformation to champion their cause.

That makes sense. Somehow I can't imagine would say such a thing.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

WD Loughman wrote:

> Yes. It steers Attwood and others in the direction ASAN/Ne'eman wants

> to go.

Exactly. Very effective political move.

> Yes. ...On *thoughtful* readers. Not all readers are.

And that's the problem. Politicians know that most readers do not tend

to analyze situations as a law school student might. Instead, they

react emotionally and according to their biases, believing 'facts'

without checking into the background of that information and whose

agenda it might serve.

IMX, most people do not have the time and inclination to develop their

critical thinking skills to the point where they are able to put up a

strong defense to the sort of political strategies that can impact their

lives.

All of this serves politicians well come election day.

> It's one way demagogues get traction: Ad hominem attacks.

Yep. Works every time.

> Arguing over *our* words just diverts attention from *the petition's*

> modus operandi and its *real goal*: ASAN/Ne'eman self-aggrandizement.

Classic diversionary tactics. Keeps people arguing among themselves

rather than focusing their attention on what's really going on. Quick!

Look over *there*! LOL

IMO, it would benefit more people to educate themselves on the art of

war, both literal and figurative.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

CJ wrote perceptive comments (mine are at the end):

> WD Loughman wrote:

>

>> Yes. It steers Attwood and others in the direction ASAN/Ne'eman wants

>> to go.

>

> Exactly. Very effective political move.

>

>> Yes. ...On *thoughtful* readers. Not all readers are.

>

> And that's the problem. Politicians know that most readers do not tend

> to analyze situations as a law school student might. Instead, they

> react emotionally and according to their biases, believing 'facts'

> without checking into the background of that information and whose

> agenda it might serve.

>

> IMX, most people do not have the time and inclination to develop their

> critical thinking skills to the point where they are able to put up a

> strong defense to the sort of political strategies that can impact their

> lives.

>

> All of this serves politicians well come election day.

>

>> It's one way demagogues get traction: Ad hominem attacks.

>

> Yep. Works every time.

>

>> Arguing over *our* words just diverts attention from *the petition's*

>> modus operandi and its *real goal*: ASAN/Ne'eman self-aggrandizement.

>

> Classic diversionary tactics. Keeps people arguing among themselves

> rather than focusing their attention on what's really going on. Quick!

> Look over *there*! LOL

>

> IMO, it would benefit more people to educate themselves on the art of

> war, both literal and figurative.

Sun-tzu: " The Art of War " . Translated and with commentary, by Ralph D.

Sawyer. *Recommended!!*

My edition is:

& Noble Books, New York, 1994

ISBN 1-56619-297-8 (casebound)

ISBN 1-56619-298-5 (special)

Sun-tzu's own words are pp. 163-233.

A more recent edition:

Basic Books (October 3, 2005)

ISBN-10: 0465072046

ISBN-13: 978-0465072040

- Bill, dx AS; ...keeps up with these things

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm