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Re: re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

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Personally, I'm all for my wife increasing my dopamine

levels

Seriously though, with our .. he's 6 and severely

autistic.. when he's melting down a lot, e gives him a strong cup of

coffee and that calms him down, even puts him to sleep if he has enough of

it.

Talking to 's special needs teacher, she

recommends

coffee to all the parents of ASD kids..

I know basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have no

idea why that works or if it's related, but that's our experience with drugs

and

the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationships@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject: re-opening the medication

issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-I haven't posted in a very long time, but have

lurked here and there. I always appreciate the insights from both sides

of

the aisle. (;I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation

in

my AS husband in the most unusual of circumstances.He

unfortunately

had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him much physical

pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good patient,

but

hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take

vicodin

when he needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.However, upon

taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe the man

before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs.

A

new ability that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and

cared

for the children appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).Now I

know

many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not wish to

fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I

find attractive (the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness,

naivtee....).However, the aspects which are often vented here

(lack

of empathy, bluntness, withdraw, lack of affection, and in my case,

crass

outbursts) have truly taken a toll on our marriage and I have more than

once

entertained leaving.But this incredible situation has given me an

odd

sense of hope. After a horrible night last night of complete

miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie episode--he

acknowledges

that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came to me,

hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and

hugged

and massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on

his

part. This has NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I

almost

felt like it was another man and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved

it

nonetheless...Of course, with my science/biochemistry

background I madly googled after that. I found that vicodin, in addition

to

its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine (that is why people get

addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked to the

dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting

information.

They tend to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which

counters

my experience with vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such

meds

with luck/no luck.BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my

vicodin

standpoint) I also found data that said asperger's has increased

dopamine

beta hydroxylase, which means that their dopamine is being converted to

norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of dopamine. Ergo, getting

more

dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds they are

currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would

be

from the antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep

more dopamine out there.....Any insight/experience is

appreciated.Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so

that he

may be convinced to seek professional help/maybe get meds. To the other

AS'

out there: would this tactic work? Should I ask him while he is on the

vicodin?? (:(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS

person on it...my husband takes it only for 2 days then months go by,

etc...But he has taken it enough times for me to see this incredible

result!!!!).Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without

sacrificing any AS qualities that are not harmful to our marriage...the

best

of all possible worlds...Best wishes-xo

Heidi

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My psychiatrist believes I have comorbidity with my AS and has

prescribed stimulant medication. Ritalin made me yawn a great deal

and become over tired at night otherwise no improvement in symptoms.

I have taking dexamphetamine for some time now. For the first six

months I noticed a similar experience as you describe of your

husbands behaviour. My wife loved the change in personality and

behaviour, especially the my joy in fashion shopping with coffee

breaks.

Stimulant medication works on dopamine re-uptake and levels. The

stimulant medication has lost much of its effectiveness over time.

Anti-depressant medication gives me adverse side effects, prozac

produced Seratonin syndrome and I was hospitalised. Anti-epileptic

medications appear to work well on stabilising my moods.

From research I have done into autism and personal communiction with

ASD folke the symptoms are certainly treatment resistant. If

medication can improve my quality of life I have no aversion to

taking any that has a benefit. Will try Topomax early Feb when my

psych Dr returns from holidays. I had positve mood change with

Tegretol, but the veracious appetite would have caused serious health

problems.

I did read information suggesting ASD people have low serotonin

levels and I spoke with a female Aspergers who indicated tests showed

she had low serotnin levels. Perhaps people with autism have issues

with low serotonin and dopamine levels which cause secondary mood

disorders.

BTW enjoy the tender moments while they last, my wife did!

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blonde61hubby wrote:

> My psychiatrist believes I have comorbidity with my AS and has

> prescribed stimulant medication. Ritalin made me yawn a great deal

> and become over tired at night otherwise no improvement in symptoms.

> I have taking dexamphetamine for some time now. For the first six

> months I noticed a similar experience as you describe of your

> husbands behaviour. My wife loved the change in personality and

> behaviour, especially the my joy in fashion shopping with coffee

> breaks.

>

> Stimulant medication works on dopamine re-uptake and levels. The

> stimulant medication has lost much of its effectiveness over time.

> Anti-depressant medication gives me adverse side effects, prozac

> produced Seratonin syndrome and I was hospitalised. Anti-epileptic

> medications appear to work well on stabilising my moods.

>

>>From research I have done into autism and personal communiction with

> ASD folke the symptoms are certainly treatment resistant. If

> medication can improve my quality of life I have no aversion to

> taking any that has a benefit. Will try Topomax early Feb when my

> psych Dr returns from holidays. I had positve mood change with

> Tegretol, but the veracious appetite would have caused serious health

> problems.

>

> I did read information suggesting ASD people have low serotonin

> levels and I spoke with a female Aspergers who indicated tests showed

> she had low serotnin levels. Perhaps people with autism have issues

> with low serotonin and dopamine levels which cause secondary mood

> disorders.

Perhaps *some* " people with autism have issues with... " . Then again

perhaps not.

Remember there are NO well-controlled studies of the effects of *any*

of these drugs on autists. It's all try-it-and-see; trial and error.

*Be careful*!

- Bill, forever 49, dx AS; ...and skeptical

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

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blonde61hubby wrote:> . My wife loved the change in personality and > behaviour, especially the my joy in fashion shopping with coffee > breaks.> >

me here:

there is no drug or no reward that can provide sufficient motivation to want to do that.

when you describe of the "wearing off" effect it is called refraction....the same dose has less affect. drug companies are aware of this in their product profile prior to testing for human approval.

period to refraction studies are an important make up of drug trial protocols.

you need more and dependancy and addiction can follow.

37 m diagnosed AS., shops alone, doesnt do coffee shops.

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When was young I used to give him half a cup of Coke before taking him out in public to some place new to him, larger box stores, doctor appointments. While I love coffee, I cannot imagine trying to get that down a kid with an acute aversion to new tastes, smells etc.

It did not work for tho. for him it was very explicit schedule cards. One mistake and he filled my back seat with barf. If caffeine would have worked, I would have injected it intervenously. I'm sooooo glad those days are over.

Lorelie

To: aspires-relationships From: usarian@...Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:30:28 -0600Subject: Re: re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Personally, I'm all for my wife increasing my dopamine levels

Seriously though, with our .. he's 6 and severely autistic.. when he's melting down a lot, e gives him a strong cup of coffee and that calms him down, even puts him to sleep if he has enough of it.

Talking to 's special needs teacher, she recommends coffee to all the parents of ASD kids..

I know basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have no idea why that works or if it's related, but that's our experience with drugs and the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationships@ya hoogroups.com

Subject: re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-I haven't posted in a very long time, but have lurked here and there. I always appreciate the insights from both sides of the aisle. (;I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation in my AS husband in the most unusual of circumstances.He unfortunately had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him much physical pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good patient, but hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take vicodin when he needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.However, upon taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe the man before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs. A new ability that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and cared for the children appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).Now I know many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not wish to fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I find attractive (the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness, naivtee....).However, the aspects which are often vented here (lack of empathy, bluntness, withdraw, lack of affection, and in my case, crass outbursts) have truly taken a toll on our marriage and I have more than once entertained leaving.But this incredible situation has given me an odd sense of hope. After a horrible night last night of complete miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie episode--he acknowledges that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came to me, hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and hugged and massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on his part. This has NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I almost felt like it was another man and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved it nonetheless...Of course, with my science/biochemistry background I madly googled after that. I found that vicodin, in addition to its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine (that is why people get addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked to the dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting information. They tend to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which counters my experience with vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such meds with luck/no luck.BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my vicodin standpoint) I also found data that said asperger's has increased dopamine beta hydroxylase, which means that their dopamine is being converted to norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of dopamine. Ergo, getting more dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds they are currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would be from the antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep more dopamine out there.....Any insight/experience is appreciated.Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so that he may be convinced to seek professional help/maybe get meds. To the other AS' out there: would this tactic work? Should I ask him while he is on the vicodin?? (:(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS person on it...my husband takes it only for 2 days then months go by, etc...But he has taken it enough times for me to see this incredible result!!!!).Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without sacrificing any AS qualities that are not harmful to our marriage...the best of all possible worlds...Best wishes-xo Heidi

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At 06:13 PM 1/10/2009, wrote:

> writes;

> " If I were not accepting of being AS, then I might actually need

>these drugs " !

>

>Not sure what you mean by this statement, appears olique in nature.

has been a member here for awhile, and is a really smart gal

<smile!> She was not discounting the necessity of (sometimes

live-saving) medication for some. And folks with ASDs are not immune

to having other challenges such as bi-polar disorder, etc.

What meant (correct me if I'm wrong, ) is that for

some of us ASD folks, understanding our AS - and the knowledge of

how we can maximize our strengths, and overcome our challenges, has

made the difference between being depressed and requiring medication,

and improving our overall outlook and opportunities in our life. For

some of us lucky ones who have no serious biochemical issues to

contend with on top of our AS, this knowledge is enough.

But thanks for clarifying that medication does indeed have its place.

14 years ago, after a car accident, I went into PTSD, and I rapidly

spiralled downward into serious depression, and anti-anxiety and

anti-depressant medication yanked me out of that spiral before I

needed to be hospitalized, or worse.

- Helen

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Helen,Nicely stated! I need to be more careful in anticipating when my meaning will not be quite so clear. Thanks,

> writes;

>"If I were not accepting of being AS, then I might actually need

>these drugs"!

>

>Not sure what you mean by this statement, appears olique in nature.

has been a member here for awhile, and is a really smart gal

<smile!> She was not discounting the necessity of (sometimes

live-saving) medication for some. And folks with ASDs are not immune

to having other challenges such as bi-polar disorder, etc.

What meant (correct me if I'm wrong, ) is that for

some of us ASD folks, understanding our AS - and the knowledge of

how we can maximize our strengths, and overcome our challenges, has

made the difference between being depressed and requiring medication,

and improving our overall outlook and opportunities in our life. For

some of us lucky ones who have no serious biochemical issues to

contend with on top of our AS, this knowledge is enough.

But thanks for clarifying that medication does indeed have its place.

14 years ago, after a car accident, I went into PTSD, and I rapidly

spiralled downward into serious depression, and anti-anxiety and

anti-depressant medication yanked me out of that spiral before I

needed to be hospitalized, or worse.

- Helen

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mosshm wrote:

> Greetings Everyone-

>

> I haven't posted in a very long time, but have lurked here and there. I always

appreciate

> the insights from both sides of the aisle. (;

Hello again Heidi! I'm glad to find you never really left.

>

> I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation in my AS husband in

the most

> unusual of circumstances.

>

> He unfortunately had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him

much

> physical pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good

patient, but

> hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take vicodin

when he

> needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.

>

> However, upon taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe

the man

> before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs. A new

ability

> that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and cared for the

children

> appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).

[ snip, for brevity ]

> But this incredible situation has given me an odd sense of hope. After a

horrible night last

> night of complete miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie

episode--he

> acknowledges that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came

to me,

> hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and hugged

and

> massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on his part.

This has

> NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I almost felt like it was

another man

> and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved it nonetheless...

>

> Of course, with my science/biochemistry background I madly googled after that.

I found

> that vicodin, in addition to its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine

(that is why

> people get addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked

to the

> dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting information.

They tend

> to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which counters my experience

with

> vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such meds with luck/no luck.

Haven't tried it or anything else. But see below.

>

> BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my vicodin standpoint) I also found

data that

> said asperger's has increased dopamine beta hydroxylase, which means that

their

> dopamine is being converted to norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of

dopamine.

> Ergo, getting more dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds

they are

> currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would be

from the

> antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep more dopamine

out

> there.....

Good thinking. But I suspect the realities among autists are more

complicated than the standard model implies.

>

> Any insight/experience is appreciated.

[ snip ]

For insight, I defer to a recent professional CD:

" Genetics and Treatment of Bipolar-Spectrum Disorders " , Vol 37, Issue

21, November 7, 2008.

This is part of the long-running CME series: " Audio-Digest

Psychiatry " (ISSN 0271-1311). Speaker is R. Kelsoe, MD; at UCSD I

believe.

Although Kelsoe uses Bipolar as his example, the entire talk (about an

hour) could as easily have been about autism! The twin problems of

diagnosis and treatment (given NO objective test for either condition)

are almost identical in both cases.

In any event his detailed discussion of the complex relationships of

genetics and disease to psychopharmacology is the best I've ever heard

or read!

You probably know: many in the research community are beginning to think

bipolar, autism, and schizophrenia are all together in one big spectrum.

In that regard, I think you might find Kelsoe's exposition both

enlightening generally, *and* personally useful.

I recommend the CD to you; ... BUT ALSO to all those others who've been

discussing *medications* for autism/Asperger.

Your Medical Library might have it.

- Bill, forever 49, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

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Hi Heidi and all,

Just a short note about my husband’s experience taking

Marinol which is basically never prescribed except to AIDS and cancer patients with

life threatening illness and with no appetites. Back in 1997 Phil took Marinol

for 10 months (talked his doctor into it) and the results were

phenomenal!!!!!!! Insurance stopped paying though, after 10 months, as Phil did

not have an “approved” condition. The amount he took (10 pills a

day-I think most AIDS and cancer patients take 3-4 a day) back then, would

have cost about $70,000 a year, which we do not/did not have. One big benefit

from Marinol is increased dopamine.

Phil was able to travel, for a week, to Disneyworld by car with

me and my two sons (ages 11 and 9 at the time) and enjoy himself. (Phil rarely

enjoys leaving our house). He spent several hours each of 4-5 days at Disneyworld

with the boys while I attended the national ASA Conference. His executive

function abilities were great and his ability to empathize and communicate with

the boys and me was more than you could ever imagine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He

still had sensory sensitivities to a degree and anxiety and other problems but

he was able to manage these. I cannot describe what this transformation was

like. His best friend could not believe how relaxed and “functional”

Phil was during this time. Phil was able to enjoy life not just endure it.

Before and after this 10 month period Phil often has meltdowns

when spending one night away from home unless highly medicated with

various tranquilizers. I think you get the picture…

St. ’s Wort and a very small dose of an SSRI does help

him to function and have some “good” days. These both help with

dopamine but Phil’s metabolism must require A TON more dopamine than

most.

Anyone with other safe ideas on raising dopamine (I think sex

falls into this category, too) PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t get to read or post much anymore but I know you

are all here and it is very comforting.

Wishing everyone on ASPIRES all the best in 2009!

Marci age 52 (married 25 years to Phil age 57; sons 23 and 20,

stepdaughter 36 and two grandkids 6 and 8 years old (three of the 6 with

spectrum diagnoses and the others not far behind…)

Marci Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853

E. Tenth Street

Bloomington,

IN 47408

Phone:

Fax:

mwheeler@...

www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca

From: aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Usarian

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: re-opening the medication issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Personally,

I'm all for my wife increasing my dopamine levels

Seriously

though, with our .. he's 6 and severely autistic.. when he's melting down

a lot, e gives him a strong cup of coffee and that calms him down, even

puts him to sleep if he has enough of it.

Talking to

's special needs teacher, she recommends coffee to all the parents of ASD

kids..

I know

basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have no idea why that works or if it's

related, but that's our experience with drugs and the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent: Saturday, January

10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationships@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject:

re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-

I haven't posted in a very long time, but have lurked here and there. I always

appreciate

the insights from both sides of the aisle. (;

I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation in my AS husband in the

most

unusual of circumstances.

He unfortunately had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him

much

physical pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good

patient, but

hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take vicodin

when he

needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.

However, upon taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe

the man

before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs. A new

ability

that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and cared for the

children

appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).

Now I know many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not

wish to

fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I find

attractive

(the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness, naivtee....).

However, the aspects which are often vented here (lack of empathy, bluntness,

withdraw,

lack of affection, and in my case, crass outbursts) have truly taken a toll on

our marriage

and I have more than once entertained leaving.

But this incredible situation has given me an odd sense of hope. After a

horrible night last

night of complete miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie

episode--he

acknowledges that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came

to me,

hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and hugged and

massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on his part.

This has

NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I almost felt like it was

another man

and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved it nonetheless...

Of course, with my science/biochemistry background I madly googled after that.

I found

that vicodin, in addition to its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine

(that is why

people get addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked

to the

dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting information.

They tend

to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which counters my experience

with

vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such meds with luck/no luck.

BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my vicodin standpoint) I also found

data that

said asperger's has increased dopamine beta hydroxylase, which means that their

dopamine is being converted to norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of

dopamine.

Ergo, getting more dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds

they are

currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would be

from the

antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep more dopamine

out

there.....

Any insight/experience is appreciated.

Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so that he may be convinced

to seek

professional help/maybe get meds. To the other AS' out there: would this tactic

work?

Should I ask him while he is on the vicodin?? (:

(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS person on it...my

husband takes it

only for 2 days then months go by, etc...But he has taken it enough times for

me to see

this incredible result!!!!).

Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without sacrificing any AS

qualities that are

not harmful to our marriage...the best of all possible worlds...

Best wishes-

xo Heidi

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Share on other sites

Without Googling, I believe dark chocolate does

dopamine..

lemme Google and see what pops up..

http://www.raysahelian.com/d

opamine.html

http://www.integra

tivepsychiatry.net/dopamine.html

didn't even look at

them

as my CHICKEN IS BURNING!! OH NOOOO!!

From: Wheeler, Marci

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:29 PM

To: aspires-relationships@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject: RE: re-opening the medication

issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Hi Heidi

and

all,

Just a

short

note about my husband’s experience taking Marinol which is basically never

prescribed except to AIDS and cancer patients with life threatening illness

and

with no appetites. Back in 1997 Phil took Marinol for 10 months (talked his

doctor into it) and the results were phenomenal!!!!!!! Insurance

stopped

paying though, after 10 months, as Phil did not have an “approved”

condition.

The amount he took (10 pills a day-I think most AIDS and cancer patients

take

3-4 a day) back then, would have cost about $70,000 a year,

which we

do not/did not have. One big benefit from Marinol is increased

dopamine.

Phil was

able

to travel, for a week, to Disneyworld by car with me and my two sons (ages

11

and 9 at the time) and enjoy himself. (Phil rarely enjoys leaving our

house). He

spent several hours each of 4-5 days at Disneyworld with the boys while I

attended the national ASA Conference. His executive function abilities were

great and his ability to empathize and communicate with the boys and

me was more than you could ever imagine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He

still

had sensory sensitivities to a degree and anxiety and other problems but he

was

able to manage these. I cannot describe what this transformation was like.

His

best friend could not believe how relaxed and “functional” Phil was during

this

time. Phil was able to enjoy life not just endure it.

Before and

after this 10 month period Phil often has meltdowns when spending one

night away from home unless highly medicated with various tranquilizers.

I

think you get the picture…

St. ’s

Wort

and a very small dose of an SSRI does help him to function and have some

“good”

days. These both help with dopamine but Phil’s metabolism must require A TON

more dopamine than most.

Anyone with

other safe ideas on raising dopamine (I think sex falls into this category,

too)

PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t get

to

read or post much anymore but I know you are all here and it is very

comforting.

Wishing

everyone on ASPIRES all the best in 2009!

Marci age

52

(married 25 years to Phil age 57; sons 23 and 20, stepdaughter 36 and two

grandkids 6 and 8 years old (three of the 6 with spectrum diagnoses and the

others not far behind…)

Marci

Wheeler, M.S.W. Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853 E.

Tenth

Street Bloomington,

IN 47408 Phone:

Fax:

mwheelerindiana (DOT) edu

www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca

From: aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf

Of

UsarianSent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AMTo:

aspires-relationships Subject: Re:

re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and

the

WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Personally, I'm all for my wife increasing my

dopamine

levels

Seriously though, with our .. he's 6 and

severely

autistic.. when he's melting down a lot, e gives him a strong cup of

coffee and that calms him down, even puts him to sleep if he has enough of

it.

Talking to 's special needs teacher, she

recommends coffee to all the parents of ASD kids..

I know basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have

no

idea why that works or if it's related, but that's our experience with drugs

and

the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent:

Saturday,

January 10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationshi

ps@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject:

re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and

the

WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-I haven't posted in a very long time, but have

lurked here and there. I always appreciate the insights from both sides

of

the aisle. (;I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation

in

my AS husband in the most unusual of circumstances.He

unfortunately

had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him much physical

pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good patient,

but

hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take

vicodin

when he needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.However, upon

taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe the man

before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs.

A

new ability that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and

cared

for the children appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).Now I

know

many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not wish to

fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I

find attractive (the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness,

naivtee....).However, the aspects which are often vented here

(lack

of empathy, bluntness, withdraw, lack of affection, and in my case,

crass

outbursts) have truly taken a toll on our marriage and I have more than

once

entertained leaving.But this incredible situation has given me an

odd

sense of hope. After a horrible night last night of complete

miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie episode--he

acknowledges

that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came to me,

hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and

hugged

and massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on

his

part. This has NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I

almost

felt like it was another man and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved

it

nonetheless...Of course, with my science/biochemistry

background I madly googled after that. I found that vicodin, in addition

to

its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine (that is why people get

addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked to the

dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting

information.

They tend to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which

counters

my experience with vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such

meds

with luck/no luck.BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my

vicodin

standpoint) I also found data that said asperger's has increased

dopamine

beta hydroxylase, which means that their dopamine is being converted to

norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of dopamine. Ergo, getting

more

dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds they are

currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would

be

from the antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep

more dopamine out there.....Any insight/experience is

appreciated.Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so

that he

may be convinced to seek professional help/maybe get meds. To the other

AS'

out there: would this tactic work? Should I ask him while he is on the

vicodin?? (:(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS

person on it...my husband takes it only for 2 days then months go by,

etc...But he has taken it enough times for me to see this incredible

result!!!!).Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without

sacrificing any AS qualities that are not harmful to our marriage...the

best

of all possible worlds...Best wishes-xo

Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for this great information!

Marci Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853

E. Tenth Street

Bloomington,

IN 47408

Phone:

Fax:

mwheeler@...

www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca

From:

aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ]

On Behalf Of Usarian

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:25 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: re-opening the medication issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Without

Googling, I believe dark chocolate does dopamine.. lemme Google and see what

pops up..

http://www.raysahelian.com/d

opamine.html

http://www.integra

tivepsychiatry.net/dopamine.html

didn't even

look at them as my CHICKEN IS BURNING!! OH NOOOO!!

From: Wheeler, Marci

Sent: Monday, January 12,

2009 1:29 PM

To: aspires-relationships@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject: RE:

re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the

WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Hi Heidi and all,

Just a short note about my

husband’s experience taking Marinol which is basically never prescribed

except to AIDS and cancer patients with life threatening illness and with no

appetites. Back in 1997 Phil took Marinol for 10 months (talked his doctor into

it) and the results were phenomenal!!!!!!! Insurance stopped paying though,

after 10 months, as Phil did not have an “approved” condition. The

amount he took (10 pills a day-I think most AIDS and cancer patients take 3-4 a

day) back then, would have cost about $70,000 a year, which we do

not/did not have. One big benefit from Marinol is increased dopamine.

Phil was able to travel, for a week, to

Disneyworld by car with me and my two sons (ages 11 and 9 at the time) and

enjoy himself. (Phil rarely enjoys leaving our house). He spent several hours

each of 4-5 days at Disneyworld with the boys while I attended the national ASA

Conference. His executive function abilities were great and his ability to empathize

and communicate with the boys and me was more than you could ever

imagine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He still had sensory sensitivities to a degree and

anxiety and other problems but he was able to manage these. I cannot describe

what this transformation was like. His best friend could not believe how

relaxed and “functional” Phil was during this time. Phil was able

to enjoy life not just endure it.

Before and after this 10 month period

Phil often has meltdowns when spending one night away from home unless

highly medicated with various tranquilizers. I think you get the picture…

St. ’s Wort and a very small

dose of an SSRI does help him to function and have some “good”

days. These both help with dopamine but Phil’s metabolism must require A

TON more dopamine than most.

Anyone with other safe ideas on raising

dopamine (I think sex falls into this category, too) PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t get to read or post much

anymore but I know you are all here and it is very comforting.

Wishing everyone on ASPIRES all the best

in 2009!

Marci age 52 (married 25 years to Phil

age 57; sons 23 and 20, stepdaughter 36 and two grandkids 6 and 8 years old

(three of the 6 with spectrum diagnoses and the others not far behind…)

Marci

Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853

E. Tenth Street

Bloomington,

IN 47408

Phone:

Fax:

mwheeler@...

www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca

From:

aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ]

On Behalf Of Usarian

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: re-opening the medication issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Personally,

I'm all for my wife increasing my dopamine levels

Seriously

though, with our .. he's 6 and severely autistic.. when he's melting down

a lot, e gives him a strong cup of coffee and that calms him down, even

puts him to sleep if he has enough of it.

Talking

to 's special needs teacher, she recommends coffee to all the parents of

ASD kids..

I

know basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have no idea why that works or if

it's related, but that's our experience with drugs and the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationshi

ps@ya hoogroups.com

Subject: re-opening the medication

issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-

I haven't posted in a very long time, but have lurked here and there. I always

appreciate

the insights from both sides of the aisle. (;

I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation in my AS husband in the

most

unusual of circumstances.

He unfortunately had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him

much

physical pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good

patient, but

hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take vicodin

when he

needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.

However, upon taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe

the man

before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs. A new

ability

that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and cared for the

children

appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).

Now I know many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not

wish to

fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I find

attractive

(the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness, naivtee....).

However, the aspects which are often vented here (lack of empathy, bluntness,

withdraw,

lack of affection, and in my case, crass outbursts) have truly taken a toll on

our marriage

and I have more than once entertained leaving.

But this incredible situation has given me an odd sense of hope. After a

horrible night last

night of complete miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie

episode--he

acknowledges that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came

to me,

hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and hugged and

massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on his part.

This has

NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I almost felt like it was

another man

and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved it nonetheless...

Of course, with my science/biochemistry background I madly googled after that.

I found

that vicodin, in addition to its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine

(that is why

people get addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked

to the

dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting information.

They tend

to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which counters my experience

with

vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such meds with luck/no luck.

BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my vicodin standpoint) I also found

data that

said asperger's has increased dopamine beta hydroxylase, which means that their

dopamine is being converted to norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of

dopamine.

Ergo, getting more dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds

they are

currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would be

from the

antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep more dopamine

out

there.....

Any insight/experience is appreciated.

Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so that he may be convinced

to seek

professional help/maybe get meds. To the other AS' out there: would this tactic

work?

Should I ask him while he is on the vicodin?? (:

(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS person on it...my

husband takes it

only for 2 days then months go by, etc...But he has taken it enough times for

me to see

this incredible result!!!!).

Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without sacrificing any AS

qualities that are

not harmful to our marriage...the best of all possible worlds...

Best wishes-

xo Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love dark chocolate!Yum!To: "aspires-relationships " <aspires-relationships >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:21:16 AMSubject: RE: re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and

the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Thank you for this great information! Marci Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853

E. Tenth Street

Bloomington,

IN 47408

Phone:

Fax:

mwheelerindiana (DOT) edu

www.iidc.indiana. edu/irca

From:

aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com [mailto:aspires- relationships@ yahoogroups. com]

On Behalf Of Usarian

Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:25 PM

To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com

Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] re-opening the medication issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Without

Googling, I believe dark chocolate does dopamine.. lemme Google and see what

pops up..

http://www.raysahel ian.com/d

opamine.html

http://www.integra

tivepsychiatry. net/dopamine.. html

didn't even

look at them as my CHICKEN IS BURNING!! OH NOOOO!!

From: Wheeler, Marci

Sent: Monday, January 12,

2009 1:29 PM

To: aspires-relationshi ps@ya

hoogroups.com

Subject: RE:

[aspires-relationsh ips] re-opening the medication issue: dopamine? and the

WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Hi Heidi and all, Just a short note about my

husband’s experience taking Marinol which is basically never prescribed

except to AIDS and cancer patients with life threatening illness and with no

appetites. Back in 1997 Phil took Marinol for 10 months (talked his doctor into

it) and the results were phenomenal!! !!!!! Insurance stopped paying though,

after 10 months, as Phil did not have an “approved” condition. The

amount he took (10 pills a day-I think most AIDS and cancer patients take 3-4 a

day) back then, would have cost about $70,000 a year, which we do

not/did not have. One big benefit from Marinol is increased dopamine. Phil was able to travel, for a week, to

Disneyworld by car with me and my two sons (ages 11 and 9 at the time) and

enjoy himself. (Phil rarely enjoys leaving our house). He spent several hours

each of 4-5 days at Disneyworld with the boys while I attended the national ASA

Conference. His executive function abilities were great and his ability to empathize

and communicate with the boys and me was more than you could ever

imagine!!!!! !!!!!!!!! ! He still had sensory sensitivities to a degree and

anxiety and other problems but he was able to manage these. I cannot describe

what this transformation was like. His best friend could not believe how

relaxed and “functional” Phil was during this time. Phil was able

to enjoy life not just endure it. Before and after this 10 month period

Phil often has meltdowns when spending one night away from home unless

highly medicated with various tranquilizers. I think you get the picture… St. ’s Wort and a very small

dose of an SSRI does help him to function and have some “good”

days. These both help with dopamine but Phil’s metabolism must require A

TON more dopamine than most. Anyone with other safe ideas on raising

dopamine (I think sex falls into this category, too) PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!! !!! I don’t get to read or post much

anymore but I know you are all here and it is very comforting. Wishing everyone on ASPIRES all the best

in 2009! Marci age 52 (married 25 years to Phil

age 57; sons 23 and 20, stepdaughter 36 and two grandkids 6 and 8 years old

(three of the 6 with spectrum diagnoses and the others not far behind…) Marci

Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana

Resource Center for Autism

Indiana

Institute on Disability and Community

2853

E. Tenth Street

Bloomington,

IN 47408

Phone:

Fax:

mwheelerindiana (DOT) edu

www.iidc.indiana. edu/irca

From:

aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com [mailto:aspires- relationships@ yahoogroups. com]

On Behalf Of Usarian

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM

To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com

Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] re-opening the medication issue:

dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Personally,

I'm all for my wife increasing my dopamine levels

Seriously

though, with our .. he's 6 and severely autistic.. when he's melting down

a lot, e gives him a strong cup of coffee and that calms him down, even

puts him to sleep if he has enough of it.

Talking

to 's special needs teacher, she recommends coffee to all the parents of

ASD kids...

I

know basically NOTHING of biochemistry, so I have no idea why that works or if

it's related, but that's our experience with drugs and the spectrum.

From: mosshm

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:13 AM

To: aspires-relationshi

ps@ya hoogroups.com

Subject: [aspires-relationsh ips] re-opening the medication

issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

Greetings Everyone-

I haven't posted in a very long time, but have lurked here and there. I always

appreciate

the insights from both sides of the aisle.. (;

I witnessed and amazing, nay, miraculous transformation in my AS husband in the

most

unusual of circumstances.

He unfortunately had 2 incidents over the past few months which brought him

much

physical pain--root canals/tooth issues and back pain. He is not a very good

patient, but

hates taking any medication. However, his doctors pushed him to take vicodin

when he

needed it, and he did ultimately succumb.

However, upon taking the medication, for those few hours I could not believe

the man

before me. There was empathy. There was a sincere response to my needs. A new

ability

that did not exist before for sure. He even interacted and cared for the

children

appropriately (albeit a bit sleepily (:).

Now I know many NT's differ in their feelings about their AS spouses. I do not

wish to

fundamentally change my spouse--after all, many of the qualities of AS I find

attractive

(the geeky parts: single focus, success, shyness, naivtee....) .

However, the aspects which are often vented here (lack of empathy, bluntness,

withdraw,

lack of affection, and in my case, crass outbursts) have truly taken a toll on

our marriage

and I have more than once entertained leaving.

But this incredible situation has given me an odd sense of hope. After a

horrible night last

night of complete miscommunication (and what I call an extreme Aspie

episode--he

acknowledges that as well...), one vicodin tonight, and an hour later he came

to me,

hugged me, led me to his computer room, sat me down on the couch and hugged and

massaged me. No words. Just extreme snuggles. And complete giving on his part.

This has

NEVER happened in our marriage!! It felt SO strange I almost felt like it was

another man

and felt oddly guilty about it, but loved it nonetheless. ..

Of course, with my science/biochemistr y background I madly googled after that.

I found

that vicodin, in addition to its pain-killing abilities, upregulates dopamine

(that is why

people get addicted to it....). Then, I saw that Asperger's can also be linked

to the

dopamine system. What intrigued me though was some conflicting information.

They tend

to prescribe drugs that REDUCE dopamine function, which counters my experience

with

vicodin helping. I wonder if any AS here tried such meds with luck/no luck.

BUT counter to that (and reassuring from my vicodin standpoint) I also found

data that

said asperger's has increased dopamine beta hydroxylase, which means that their

dopamine is being converted to norepinephrine. Ergo, reducing their pools of

dopamine.

Ergo, getting more dopamine (like from vicodin (;) would HELP!!! And the meds

they are

currently using to curb dopamine would NOT help! A better approach would be

from the

antidepressant family which targets dopamine reuptake...To keep more dopamine

out

there.....

Any insight/experience is appreciated.

Also, I am thinking of revealing this data to him so that he may be convinced

to seek

professional help/maybe get meds. To the other AS' out there: would this tactic

work?

Should I ask him while he is on the vicodin?? (:

(By the way, vicodin is addictive, so do not get your AS person on it...my

husband takes it

only for 2 days then months go by, etc...But he has taken it enough times for

me to see

this incredible result!!!!).

Thanks so much...maybe there is help after all without sacrificing any AS

qualities that are

not harmful to our marriage...the best of all possible worlds...

Best wishes-

xo Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Well, that's good to know, :)

>

> ,

>

> <grin> I have not been in mathematics competition since college,

but it was interesting and fun, and I met lots of great people- maybe

even a few neurotypicals...LOL!

>

> Creative work is more fun, to me. Teramwork is fine, too- and

then, nobody gets blown out of the water- hopefully, there are no

snafus in AS/NT interaction.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: aspires-relationships

> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:08:31 PM

> Subject: Re: re-opening the medication

issue: dopamine? and the WONDERS of vicodin!!!

>

>

> Nah, 's of very high intelligence. I shudder to think what

> would happen if I were in a math challenge against her (and I

thought

> that working on logic problems strengthened my mind). Does the old

> saying, " being blown out of the water " , ring a bell, anyone?

>

>

>

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