Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 >The picture you paint is, no offense, so doom and gloom. I just can't wrap my head around it I hope my wife writes later. She just couldn't put it into words right now. She said she wanted to but she couldn't find a way of saying it without being overly negative. I will say this. We are actually a happily married couple, believe it or not, but we have both made some MASSIVE concessions, mostly emotionally. She "handles" me she says sometimes, and learning how to "handle" me was excruciating. There's no books on how to do it or anything like there is with parenting. Whatever she does, it's invisible to me. I suggest going back on the aspires website and read some of her posts over the last few months.. everyone one here has contributed soo much, I don't mean to say she stands out (well.. she does to me.. can't help myself there). My wife's baseline beliefes are why we're still married. She simply does not believe in divorce at all, especially when there are kids involved. She has a line.. she informed me of it before we got married: 1) I have to LOVE her, and know that I LOVE her. 2) No cheating. Instant divorce. 3) No hitting. one strike and you're out, her or the kids. I brushed off the last two, the first one gave me pause at the time, but I found that the last two were trying at times as well with the lack of intimacy and frustration of what stilll feels to me like she doesn't listen.. I speak in literals and she, like all NT's, reads between the lines. When she speaks in brushstrokes and I interpret it as a CAD drawing, I cannot help but feel she's lying to me. I know the facts, she knows the facts, but we both still feel the same way. Good example, when we were still very young in many ways she asked me if she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me... ... do I NEED to fill in the blanks? she cried for a full year and brought it up in every argument for five. I have grown since then, but it was a massive and pain filled stretch for me to learn why that answer was, not wrong, but INCORRECT. (If the distinction between the two isn't obvious to you, you're NT. An AS person would launch into a dissection of what the possible meanings and relationships between the meanings could be and ask for clarification.) I'm overdoing my answer.. I'm sure of it... (*sigh*) Think of us as computers.. with emotion chip (yes yes yes, the Commander Data analogy).. that we don't know how to use.. even access. It's there, but we don't understand how it works. We study it.. analyze it, find ways to jab at it and make it do stuff.. sometimes by experimenting with the people we love unfortunately.. in an effort of connect. Please someone else respond before I ruin this poor woman's life!! -Usarian (drowning) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 haufortk wrote: > Thank you for your reply. It was incredibly hard for me to read and I'm writing this > response through tears. I am entirely shaken reading your message. I have this stubborn > vein that wants so badly to believe that I can make this work but I'm so scared that you're > right, and it's terrifying to me. It's not about me making it work, it's about us and as you > poignantly said, we just don't speak the same language. We try, but we don't. I want to > believe that we can find a way to communicate, he wants it too. If we both want it, isn't it > possible? Can't there be a way? I'm a smart girl, I don't want to kid myself or make myself > believe that this could work if it truly can't. I guess I came on this site hoping for a light at > the end of the tunnel, some hope, at least the possibility thereof. The picture you paint is, > no offense, so doom and gloom. I just can't wrap my head around it... There *is* a way; it *can* be done. It most certainly won't be easy for either of you. But it *CAN* be done; and many have done it. The " Aspergian world " really is a different world, almost Alien as so very many have said all over the Internet, and in books. Yet, with care, and **mutual** understanding and nurturing, you *may*/*might* find your way. As many have. Just, for NOW, ...at least *go slowly*. ...No hasty decisions. For starters, check out my website - in my sig-line below. (Most is " down " , for long-delayed but now imminent expansion. Still, the story that's " up " may be useful to you both.) - Bill, 76, dx AS; ...41-years married! WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm > > [ snip ] >> Some would say I'm painting a worst-case scenario, and I am, but it's the worst cases > that you will be living through for decades. >> It's your choice, but, personally, I highly recommend against moving forward in it. [ snip all remaining - end of message ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 e to the rescue. Hi I'm Usarian's wife and I am going to respond to you a little bit differently. My husband meant well, truly he did. It is true that we were young and did not really understand what we were getting into. It is also true that the sort of intimacy you describe has been very hard for us. But you have a big advantage over us...you know going in what you are getting into. This means that you can research and turn places like this board for answers before you make decisions. I do believe it is possible for NT/As relationships to work. Every couple is different. Our relationship did not begin to improve until after I learned how to communicate with my children. It is true I handle Usarian to an extent. I know there are certain triggers for him and I try to steer clear of them. One of those triggers is that he does not handle my emotions very well. He says he wants more intimacy but when push comes to shove even he will admit that he is not ready to handle all that it entails What I am saying is that you are starting out ahead in the game. Take your time, do research, do serious soul searching. What are the absolutes that you must have in a relationship? What are the things that you will not tolerate? I know it might feel as if you are being selfish but you must make your decisions with your eyes open. This is not to say that you can not make it work. But please make no mistake...it will take work. Every relationship does whether they be NT/NT or AS/NT or AS/AS or Martian/Human (okay that one may be a little bit of a stretch). Take your time, think things through and you will be all right whatever you decide. e From: haufortk Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:05 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Reaching out Thank you for your reply. It was incredibly hard for me to read and I'm writing this response through tears. I am entirely shaken reading your message. I have this stubborn vein that wants so badly to believe that I can make this work but I'm so scared that you're right, and it's terrifying to me. It's not about me making it work, it's about us and as you poignantly said, we just don't speak the same language. We try, but we don't. I want to believe that we can find a way to communicate, he wants it too. If we both want it, isn't it possible? Can't there be a way? I'm a smart girl, I don't want to kid myself or make myself believe that this could work if it truly can't. I guess I came on this site hoping for a light at the end of the tunnel, some hope, at least the possibility thereof. The picture you paint is, no offense, so doom and gloom. I just can't wrap my head around it...>> >He says we can find a way but I'm scared I'll lose myself in the meantime...> > Wow, your story is identical to what my wife and I went through before we got married. I didn't know about AS at that time, but I knew me and had the same identical conversation with her.> > She sat down to write back to you but couldn't find the words. She will probably dive in later.> > My name's Usarian, my wife is e, we share the same email address, so it can be a little confusing. I'm AS, she's NT. We have 5 boys now, one dx severely autistic (had been nonverbal) the other is AS.> > I'll be blunt. Everything he said is right and everything you said is right. You can move ahead with the relationship if you want, but you should not expect him to change in the least and you absolutely will lose yourself... and just so there's no confusion, that's a bad thing.> > It has taken e nearly 10 years and massive heartache on both our parts to find a way to .. keep me from hurting her (can't think of a way to phrase it). I have no malice in my words or actions, I just do not, (without lots and lots and lots.. 10 years of intensely learning and adapting so far) have the capacity to "speak her language" so to speak, neither her to speak mine. We are committed to each other and out family, but there is *no* connectedness. I desire it, she has given up on desiring it. We make do.> > As an AS person we react to situations by "figuring things out", but intimacy can't be figured out. It can at best be simulated, which intrinsically fells false (since it is false). He think's he can establish intimacy by doing rather than being, and we are not capable of being something we aren't. We are detatched.. that's the definition of Asperger's, and despite our best efforts, we cannot overcome our dna and become attached any more than a 5 foot tall adult can perform in an NBA game. It just isn't the cards we're dealt.> > If you sit down and are willing to commit your life to someone because you love them and not because they can meet your needs, similar to considering marrying a man who has terminal cancer or full blown AIDS.. if you can sit down and serious commit yourself to a life of nothing ever being enough because just being with him is worth sacrificing your own life and happiness, then sit down and think about it one more time because this will be harder.> > You will always speak different languages.> > If you choose to have children, they could be like him or more severe, and you should know that an AS person with an AS kid is no picnic.> > Most of all, if you decide to move forward, set firm boundaries. You do X, Y, or Z, and I am filing for divorce within 24 hours, no if's ands or but's, and you yourself stick firmly to those, because if you let them slide it will only get worse.> > We're controlling, manipulative, never at fault, and twist everything.> > Some would say I'm painting a worst-case scenario, and I am, but it's the worst cases that you will be living through for decades.> > It's your choice, but, personally, I highly recommend against moving forward in it.> > Apologies to the guy, I feel for him, but I know what I put my wife through, and I had seen it coming, I wouldn't have gone through with it simply out of love for her. She still deserves better than me, I'm just lucky she hasn't realized it yet.> > Usarian> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 > My boyfriend has told me I could do better than him, that I will eventually >leave him and that I'd be better off. Where does this come from? Is it what he wants??? Hi again! Glad you're still here! (*WHEW!*) I say this ALL the time and always have. We think differently.. I know that's been said before, but more specifically, we LEARN differently, and this statement is related to that. We learn and think in terms of logical relationships. Most people learn basically by repetition. Repitition for us is insulting. It could be said 100 times and we wouldn't remember it without something to relate it to.. logical connections. We extrapolate information we haven't learned by looking at the connections around where the gap is and filling in the gap. If x, y, and z is true, then that means w is likely true as well. He knows himself, and cares about you and how you feel. He's recognizing that he's confusing you and things are difficult, therefore it makes sense to assume you need something he can't provide and will go elsewhere to get it. It's deduction, not what he wants. The big problem is probably going to be telling him he's wrong. -Usarian (trying to keep it simple this time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 haufortk wrote: > Wow. Is this optimism I read? Yes. Cautious optimism, but optimism nonetheless. > I will go slowly. I promise. I guess I'm most afraid to try and fail. I don't want to get hurt, I > don't want to hurt him. I don't want to be another person that abandons him, that can't > take it, yet I don't want to lose myself in the process just to be special. At this time, I can't > tell if being honest with him, or being honest with myself is more difficult. All that is Step One. But you *see* it! That's the first thing to do, so's NOT to stumble, ...see it. > I realize I don't > need to make a decision this minute. I told him that I will stick it out and give us a real > chance; I'm not one to run at the first sight of tears or obstacle etc. I suppose what it > comes down to is that I need to trust that who he is presenting himself as, this warm and > outgoing individual in public vs the unemotional and distant partner that I have in private > actually are the same person. Oh, they are. That's part of the " different world " . Making it something *both* of you can deal with, *both* can handle, is part of the " trick " you *both* must learn. It can take time... > Also, as Userian mentioned, when he says that he wants me > there, that he needs me, that I can somehow believe him. I feel as though I can't tust him, > because there's no visible love to back up the seemingly tender things he says... You may have to learn a whole new set of visible clues. Maybe UN-learn a few too. > > Your sight is incredibly interesting. I shall pass it onto my other half. > In the meantime, I'll continue to read, I'll continue to write and I'll hope that I can find the > patience to really feel this situation out. My instinct is to run, because it's " too hard " or > complicated BUT- I'm not. Reason being, I don't want to. I want this relationship, I want > him. I just need to wrap my head around a new definition of relationship because my old > one just doesn't fit... Recognition of that is good. " Doesn't fit " may be too strong. You might want to expand your sense of what does fit, or can fit... > >> There *is* a way; it *can* be done. It most certainly won't be easy for >> either of you. But it *CAN* be done; and many have done it. >> >> The " Aspergian world " really is a different world, almost Alien as so >> very many have said all over the Internet, and in books. >> >> Yet, with care, and **mutual** understanding and nurturing, you >> *may*/*might* find your way. As many have. >> >> Just, for NOW, ...at least *go slowly*. ...No hasty decisions. >> >> For starters, check out my website - in my sig-line below. >> (Most is " down " , for long-delayed but now imminent expansion. Still, >> the story that's " up " may be useful to you both.) [ snip ] - Bill, 76, dx AS -- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Usarian wrote (responding to " haufortk " : > > My boyfriend has told me I could do better than him, that I will > > eventually > > leave him and that I'd be better off. Where does this come from? Is it > > what he wants??? No. > > Hi again! Glad you're still here! > (*WHEW!*) > > I say this ALL the time and always have. > > We think differently.. I know that's been said before, but more > specifically, we LEARN differently, and this statement is related to that. One " technical " term to Google: " visual-spatial " , as applied both to " learning " and to cognition or " cognitive style " / > > We learn and think in terms of logical relationships. Most people learn > basically by repetition. Repitition for us is insulting. It could be > said 100 times and we wouldn't remember it without something to relate > it to.. logical connections. We extrapolate information we haven't > learned by looking at the connections around where the gap is and > filling in the gap. If x, y, and z is true, then that means w is likely > true as well. Second that. > > He knows himself, and cares about you and how you feel. He's > recognizing that he's confusing you and things are difficult, therefore > it makes sense to assume you need something he can't provide and will go > elsewhere to get it. It's deduction, not what he wants. > > The big problem is probably going to be telling him he's wrong. HEH! *Careful* with that one. Maybe, don't even go there... - Bill, 76, dx AS -- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 > He never asks how I'm feeling, he tells me. At first I found it odd, then > unnerving and now irritating. He is seldom incorrect (probably why I'm so irritated) but it's > the fact that he focuses on me, rather than sharing him. Is this a common trait? I meant to respond to this. I ALWAYS did this to EVERYONE for years and years. When I met e, she made a law and set it in stone. I am not allowed to know what she thinks or feels. She communicated it a different way and we fought about it for years. It was one of the concessions, and this phrasing is not even slightly the way she put it even once. She would always say in in technically inaccurate ways, so I didn't get it.. like "you can't possibly know what I'm thinking" or whatever, when I would extrapolate whatever it was. Her rule, in my mind, became I am not allowed to guess what she thinks or feels. I was trying to say "This is what you think, yes?" and hopefully she would say something like "no, I feel more this way" and explain it logically. instead she would react. I tried and tried to get her to understand that she *shouldn't* react, but instead just EXPLAIN. That's why I'm not allowed to go there anymore.. and never really was .. I just didn't get it. I'm allowed to ASK how she feels, and ACCEPT how she feels, but, for us, I cannot explore it or try to understand it. Anyway, that's one of our concessions.. She's laughing at what I wrote, so I guess I'm safe sending this one Usarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Usarian here, Lori's points in this message are good ones. e and I worked through every one of them. I wasn't stuck in bed, but I had a few.. episodes. I just got one of my kids into cub scouts, with much much ado. She mentioned her process of getting me to do it on here a few times.. but I majorly resisted.. just as Lori said, work, side projects, "research" .. subjects I enjoy that I spend waaay too much time reading about on the internet.. all consume my time and attention. This is the "handling" that she does. Pretty bad isn't it.. I know she's doing it, I tell people she's doing it, yet I fall for it anyway... Basically deciding roles around the house and with the kids, solving household problems, budgeting, agreeing on time and spending priorities, hidden psychological or physiological issues.. all basic marriage stuff, but AS throws some spin into the mix. And false assumptions about these as well as the unexpected are frequently mountains instead of molehills for an Aspie. Usarian From: Lori D. Cole Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 7:24 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Reaching out It’s not all about intimacy/feelings. What about carrying out the processes of life? While having a logical focus makes decision making seem like a flow chart with an eventual outcome, what about having a partner in life who uses absolutely no intuition, feelings of spontaneity, or plain joy when selecting a vacation spot, a couch, a set of dishes, or a mobile phone? Will your life be better if you need to let him research making decisions in such a laborious way and while he is researching, he may expect you to handle everything else that exists to do until you lose yourself. Does this person have anxiety or depression that you have not yet recognized? In 8 years, maybe you will be trying to lift him out of bed to get to a psychiatrist because he feels like dying. What if you have kids together and you have an NT son with an AS father. Can you imagine how your NT son will feel about not joining baseball because his father does not “have time” since he is immersed in his own obsessions, research, job, or just plain socially too anxious to go to a Little League game? Your son will not be able to trade in his Dad for a different model. Believe it or not, I am all for AS rights and neurodiversity, and I do not think NTs are superior or more healthy. I am sorry I did not know about AS though as I would not choose to marry and have kids with someone with AS no matter how cool, interesting, intelligent, monetarily well off, or handsome they are. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Hello, i just wanted to put my two penneth in! A couple of months ago i actually said to people that ' if i knew then what i know now i would of ran and kept running and not look back' i think i would agree with everything Lauri said! think long and hard before you proceed with your relationship, i don't want to come across as 'don't touch an aspie with a barge pole' as i believe in karma, and would not want set a path of rejection for my son in his future as 'payback' if you get my drift! I love my husband, but i have spent so much time and energy working at our relationship, many people would have given up years ago. Why stay in a relationship/marriage that was such hard work? i don't honestly know. We have had some pretty dark times, it took it's toll on my health, to a certain extent messed up my daughters head, turned her against marriage and she became so unforgiving towards everyone she actually comes across as 'bitter', she's only 25. Everyone around us, family, friends(so called) have said i should not put up with him(Gil) and i should kick him out. So why didn't i? I think because i saw something similar in Gil to what you see in your man? Gil was(still is) very hard work, but not always, sometimes especially in the early days he was romantic, funny, always singing...... these are the qualities i held on to, i knew what he was capable of, i knew it wouldn't always be hard work. We have a son Adam 13, he is diagnosed Asperger's, i have often felt and said he was the reason for keeping us together many many times. In reality that was not true, i love my husband, always have from the first moment i saw him, that's what keeps us together. When we are 'up' the world is a wonderful place, but when we are 'down' the despair i feel puts me in such a dark place i question if i am at the point of no return, i have often felt so down and depressed i actually thought to myself that walking off the train station platform was my only salvation.(very deep huh?) You have been together for some months now so you have already 'seen' why you want to stay together. My strongest advice to you is, research/listen/learn/think/know/compromise/communicate. You have to open your eyes and mind, and take off those rose coloured glasses, (something i wish i did sooner) don't think for a minute that you can change him, he doesn't need to change, maybe learn techniques and coping strategies but we all have to do that at sometime don't we? I am happy now, we are happy now, but my word it has taken us 21 years to get here. You have two choices, 1= get out now while you can, 2= if you decide to stay with it remember it was YOUR desision and realise there is hard work and tough times ahead. Despite all the hard work and hard times we have had, that first second i saw him i knew we were soul mates, i know that sounds corny but it is true ) Hope you can make sense of my 'two penneth' Best wishes Elaine Re: Reaching out Thank you for your reply. It was incredibly hard for me to read and I'm writing this response through tears. I am entirely shaken reading your message. I have this stubborn vein that wants so badly to believe that I can make this work but I'm so scared that you're right, and it's terrifying to me. It's not about me making it work, it's about us and as you poignantly said, we just don't speak the same language. We try, but we don't. I want to believe that we can find a way to communicate, he wants it too. If we both want it, isn't it possible? Can't there be a way? I'm a smart girl, I don't want to kid myself or make myself believe that this could work if it truly can't. I guess I came on this site hoping for a light at the end of the tunnel, some hope, at least the possibility thereof. The picture you paint is, no offense, so doom and gloom. I just can't wrap my head around it...>> >He says we can find a way but I'm scared I'll lose myself in the meantime...> > Wow, your story is identical to what my wife and I went through before we got married. I didn't know about AS at that time, but I knew me and had the same identical conversation with her.> > She sat down to write back to you but couldn't find the words. She will probably dive in later.> > My name's Usarian, my wife is e, we share the same email address, so it can be a little confusing. I'm AS, she's NT. We have 5 boys now, one dx severely autistic (had been nonverbal) the other is AS.> > I'll be blunt. Everything he said is right and everything you said is right. You can move ahead with the relationship if you want, but you should not expect him to change in the least and you absolutely will lose yourself... and just so there's no confusion, that's a bad thing.> > It has taken e nearly 10 years and massive heartache on both our parts to find a way to .. keep me from hurting her (can't think of a way to phrase it). I have no malice in my words or actions, I just do not, (without lots and lots and lots.. 10 years of intensely learning and adapting so far) have the capacity to "speak her language" so to speak, neither her to speak mine. We are committed to each other and out family, but there is *no* connectedness. I desire it, she has given up on desiring it. We make do.> > As an AS person we react to situations by "figuring things out", but intimacy can't be figured out.. It can at best be simulated, which intrinsically fells false (since it is false). He think's he can establish intimacy by doing rather than being, and we are not capable of being something we aren't. We are detatched.. that's the definition of Asperger's, and despite our best efforts, we cannot overcome our dna and become attached any more than a 5 foot tall adult can perform in an NBA game. It just isn't the cards we're dealt.> > If you sit down and are willing to commit your life to someone because you love them and not because they can meet your needs, similar to considering marrying a man who has terminal cancer or full blown AIDS.. if you can sit down and serious commit yourself to a life of nothing ever being enough because just being with him is worth sacrificing your own life and happiness, then sit down and think about it one more time because this will be harder.> > You will always speak different languages.> > If you choose to have children, they could be like him or more severe, and you should know that an AS person with an AS kid is no picnic.> > Most of all, if you decide to move forward, set firm boundaries. You do X, Y, or Z, and I am filing for divorce within 24 hours, no if's ands or but's, and you yourself stick firmly to those, because if you let them slide it will only get worse.> > We're controlling, manipulative, never at fault, and twist everything.> > Some would say I'm painting a worst-case scenario, and I am, but it's the worst cases that you will be living through for decades.> > It's your choice, but, personally, I highly recommend against moving forward in it.> > Apologies to the guy, I feel for him, but I know what I put my wife through, and I had seen it coming, I wouldn't have gone through with it simply out of love for her. She still deserves better than me, I'm just lucky she hasn't realized it yet.> > Usarian>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 e, Yes, absolutely crucial before you embark on the commitment part of the relationship, to recognize AND SPELL OUT TO THE OTHER just what are the absolutes you must and must not have in a relationship. It’s all too easy to say between yourselves that you will tackle anything that crops up as your relationship progresses. Any set of (arbitrary) agreements can sound and appear cold and maybe unromantic during a courtship period. But I maintain that each and every person really needs to say just what their limits and ‘cut-off’ points are in relating. For one it may be if he/she drinks too much (or even at all for some persons). To another any evidence of lying is an absolute ‘no-no’. Maybe it would be any persistent and unpleasant habit of belittling or disrespect towards intimates. To the next one, the slightest sign of physical violence or infidelity might be it. We each have our own personal set of requirements or absolutes, and these should be known to the other from the beginning. Individuals can vary enormously in what they can tolerate in their partners. Similarly each should be fully aware of values, whether religious or moral and ethical, as held by the other. Attitudes to abortion, religion, divorce, etc. And of course, it would as well be crucial to know exactly how the prospective partner feels about having children. Devastating if you only find out years later about the real desires and dislikes of the one you are partnered with. Unfortunately, as I discovered for myself, it is much more difficult for the AS person to be able to predict just what his likes and dislikes will be when he happens to get round to being in a relationship. Certain of the basic relationship things that I was positive I would enjoy in closeness with a partner, turned out to be just what I didn’t like at all. I suspect that I held in my mind the fantasy that intimacy was just like an extended friendship; and that some sort of vague ‘goodwill’ for your mate was the main requirement. With my detached and avoidant sort of personality, I tended to believe that living together was largely a matter of not ‘bumping’ into the other day by day, moment by moment. I never conceived of such a thing as emotional neediness, and regardless of all the reading of Pop Psychology that I’d done, I could never envisage just what real intimacy could possibly mean. I had been spoiled perhaps by what I observed in my own parents, who just seemed to get on okay without any hiccups, AND never ever appeared to be actually ‘working’ at their relationships. But there again I was so self-contained as a kid, that I was oblivious of everything that was real or personal in my parents. They say that children are terribly aware of undercurrents in the family home and structure, and know so much about their parents. Heck, I never did. I got on fine with them both, but I have to admit now, that I never actually KNEW either of them. So I lived in a fools paradise as I grew up; and absolutely had not the slightest concept of what intimate relating could possibly mean. The good that I felt was consistently there in the partnership of my father and mother, all looked just so automatic and terribly terribly simple. I was positive I could replicate it with ease. Oh dear, what a shock it was to me when I found out that one’s partner was some sort of personal individual, as well as being an extraordinary Alien that I never ever got to know at all. How very true the comment on how we Aspies go about intimacy by ‘figuring things out’. As you say, it doesn’t work. When you contrive or calculate intimacy it doesn’t come across to the other party as real. Nothing about it looks good or comforting, - to the NT at any rate. For us if we received it, it would probably look and feel fine. Ah well, Cheers, Ron. From: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out e to the rescue. Hi I'm Usarian's wife and I am going to respond to you a little bit differently. My husband meant well, truly he did. It is true that we were young and did not really understand what we were getting into. It is also true that the sort of intimacy you describe has been very hard for us. But you have a big advantage over us...you know going in what you are getting into. This means that you can research and turn places like this board for answers before you make decisions. I do believe it is possible for NT/As relationships to work. Every couple is different. Our relationship did not begin to improve until after I learned how to communicate with my children. It is true I handle Usarian to an extent. I know there are certain triggers for him and I try to steer clear of them. One of those triggers is that he does not handle my emotions very well. He says he wants more intimacy but when push comes to shove even he will admit that he is not ready to handle all that it entails What I am saying is that you are starting out ahead in the game. Take your time, do research, do serious soul searching. What are the absolutes that you must have in a relationship? What are the things that you will not tolerate? I know it might feel as if you are being selfish but you must make your decisions with your eyes open. This is not to say that you can not make it work. But please make no mistake...it will take work. Every relationship does whether they be NT/NT or AS/NT or AS/AS or Martian/Human (okay that one may be a little bit of a stretch). Take your time, think things through and you will be all right whatever you decide > > As an AS person we react to situations by " figuring things out " , but intimacy can't be figured out. It can at best be simulated, which intrinsically fells false (since it is false). He think's he can establish intimacy by doing rather than being, and we are not capable of being something we aren't. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Usarian, What an interesting and telling phrase you use – she ‘handles’ me. Very familiar to me. This is just how I practiced intimacy with each of my wives in turn. I could really conceive of handling them. Part of the process was in nearly always making ‘political’ decisions and statements or answers when with her. Rarely was I particularly real with her. I was a bit puzzled by your statement that your wife simply doesn’t believe in divorce at all. And yet in the second and third of the three lines, it is spelt out that your failure on the demand would bring about instant divorce. In regard to the question about if ‘she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me’ , Oh dear, I would suggest the last sort of question ever to ask of an Aspie. Come to think of it, I tend to feel that if one is rash enough to ask questions, especially emotionally loaded ones of a partner, one should be fully prepared to handle whatever answer may come. To the Aspie, I would expect that the very asking of a question would imply not only that one want the truth, but also that one has a totally objective and detached preparedness to hear the answer with impassiveness. Almost as bad perhaps is the question you quote, as the old proverbial one about ‘Does my bum look big in these pants?’ Just never never ask a question like this of an Aspie. He is liable to actually THINK about it intellectually as an abstract matter of fact, and duly believe that you really want to know. I’m reminded of one of my own favorite stories about a young woman I knew some 26 years back, who during a pleasant personal chat, asked me just what Sun Sign (Astrologically speaking) I was born in. I answered ‘Oh, I’m a Scorpio.’ And she gave me a meaningful look and said, ‘Ah, you’d be pretty good in bed then.’ I immediately went into intellectual mode and thought objectively about her comment, and eventually told her that it was an interesting idea, and I couldn’t say if it was correct. It was some 5 years, before I realized that she had been making a pass at me. But typically I was totally oblivious of any such issue at stake. Heaven knows what that interaction might have turned into if I’d recognized her meaning. On your final comment, yes, I do suspect that we Aspies do hope or expect to find that our partners are computer-like and predictable. How very typically your letter is looking on at your situation from a great height. It shows bewilderment, helplessness and chaos. Cheers, Ron. Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out I will say this. We are actually a happily married couple, believe it or not, but we have both made some MASSIVE concessions, mostly emotionally. She " handles " me she says sometimes, and learning how to " handle " me was excruciating. There's no books on how to do it or anything like there is with parenting. Whatever she does, it's invisible to me. My wife's baseline beliefes are why we're still married. She simply does not believe in divorce at all, especially when there are kids involved. She has a line.. she informed me of it before we got married: 1) I have to LOVE her, and know that I LOVE her. 2) No cheating. Instant divorce. 3) No hitting. one strike and you're out, her or the kids. Good example, when we were still very young in many ways she asked me if she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me... ... do I NEED to fill in the blanks? she cried for a full year and brought it up in every argument for five. I have grown since then, but it was a massive and pain filled stretch for me to learn why that answer was, not wrong, but INCORRECT. (If the distinction between the two isn't obvious to you, you're NT. An AS person would launch into a dissection of what the possible meanings and relationships between the meanings could be and ask for clarification.) I'm overdoing my answer.. I'm sure of it... (*sigh*) Think of us as computers.. with emotion chip (yes yes yes, the Commander Data analogy).. that we don't know how to use.. even access. It's there, but we don't understand how it works. We study it.. analyze it, find ways to jab at it and make it do stuff.. sometimes by experimenting with the people we love unfortunately.. in an effort of connect. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 > On your final comment, yes, I do suspect that we Aspies do hope or > expect to > find that our partners are computer-like and predictable. LOL As a programmer, I rarely find computers to be predictable! Sometimes it seems like all they want to do is try to tell me I typed something int wrong when I friggin *KNOW* DARN WELL I DIDN'T! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I have enjoyed reading all of your post. I have actually re-read any number of them. Usarian has an interesting way of presenting my views. ` It has been through my clarifications of his post here that we have come to a better understanding of each other, vice versa is true as well. Your confusion on my stance on divorce is quite understandable. To spell it out clearly, there are two things that I absolutely will not tolerate. cheating or abuse. Those are instant divorce, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Everything else I am willing to work through, quite honestly we probably would have been divorced years ago had we not had kids. I believe, very firmly, that kids change the dynamics of the decision. It is no longer about whether I alone can "handle it". It is about what is best for them. In our situation, Usarian is a good father, our kids love him to pieces and would be devastated by a divorce. I am not selfish enough to believe that my personal happiness out weighs that of the other 6 people in my family ( I am not saying this is the case in every marriage but as already stated Usarian is a good father and beloved by his kids). I do handle Usarian, in the same way I handle my AS and autistic sons. I deliberately and carefully avoid any conversations or actions that are triggers for him. Doing this has sacrificed much of the intimacy in our relationship. It is impossible to have an emotionally intimate relationship with someone you are always on egg shells around. Usarian and I have a great friendship. I can honestly say he is the best friend that I have ever had but the intimacy that turns a married couple into lovers rather than room mates with privileges is missing. I feel badly about this and I know that he wants more. But he wants more on his own terms. I can not turn on certain emotions for him and leave the others dormant. I am incapable of that. He really can not deal with me being emotionally invested in any conversation or have an opinion that differs from his own. He must always be right and will dissect any and all comments I make until out of sheer frustration I completely shut down. I have never said that ours is an ideal or even normal marriage. The place we have come to works for us but it would probably not work for everyone. By the way, the conversation he refers to is not exactly as he remembers it. It was much more personal and the content is not appropriate for this board. Let's just say, my question (I was young and had no understanding of AS) was meant more for reassurance after our first intimate encounter. Instead I received I dissection of all my attributes such as they are. I now look back on this and realize just how naïve and young I was. But some things you learn the hard way. Anyway, through all my ramblings I hope I cleared up any misconceptions. Have a great day. e From: Ron H. Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 7:02 AM To: aspires-relationships Subject: RE: Re: Reaching out Usarian, What an interesting and telling phrase you use – she ‘handles’ me. Very familiar to me. This is just how I practiced intimacy with each of my wives in turn. I could really conceive of handling them. Part of the process was in nearly always making ‘political’ decisions and statements or answers when with her. Rarely was I particularly real with her. I was a bit puzzled by your statement that your wife simply doesn’t believe in divorce at all. And yet in the second and third of the three lines, it is spelt out that your failure on the demand would bring about instant divorce. In regard to the question about if ‘she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me’ , Oh dear, I would suggest the last sort of question ever to ask of an Aspie. Come to think of it, I tend to feel that if one is rash enough to ask questions, especially emotionally loaded ones of a partner, one should be fully prepared to handle whatever answer may come. To the Aspie, I would expect that the very asking of a question would imply not only that one want the truth, but also that one has a totally objective and detached preparedness to hear the answer with impassiveness. Almost as bad perhaps is the question you quote, as the old proverbial one about ‘Does my bum look big in these pants?’ Just never never ask a question like this of an Aspie. He is liable to actually THINK about it intellectually as an abstract matter of fact, and duly believe that you really want to know. I’m reminded of one of my own favorite stories about a young woman I knew some 26 years back, who during a pleasant personal chat, asked me just what Sun Sign (Astrologically speaking) I was born in. I answered ‘Oh, I’m a Scorpio.’ And she gave me a meaningful look and said, ‘Ah, you’d be pretty good in bed then.’ I immediately went into intellectual mode and thought objectively about her comment, and eventually told her that it was an interesting idea, and I couldn’t say if it was correct. It was some 5 years, before I realized that she had been making a pass at me. But typically I was totally oblivious of any such issue at stake. Heaven knows what that interaction might have turned into if I’d recognized her meaning. On your final comment, yes, I do suspect that we Aspies do hope or expect to find that our partners are computer-like and predictable. How very typically your letter is looking on at your situation from a great height. It shows bewilderment, helplessness and chaos. Cheers, Ron. Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out I will say this. We are actually a happily married couple, believe it or not, but we have both made some MASSIVE concessions, mostly emotionally. She "handles" me she says sometimes, and learning how to "handle" me was excruciating. There's no books on how to do it or anything like there is with parenting. Whatever she does, it's invisible to me. My wife's baseline beliefes are why we're still married. She simply does not believe in divorce at all, especially when there are kids involved. She has a line.. she informed me of it before we got married: 1) I have to LOVE her, and know that I LOVE her. 2) No cheating. Instant divorce. 3) No hitting. one strike and you're out, her or the kids. Good example, when we were still very young in many ways she asked me if she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me... ... do I NEED to fill in the blanks? she cried for a full year and brought it up in every argument for five. I have grown since then, but it was a massive and pain filled stretch for me to learn why that answer was, not wrong, but INCORRECT. (If the distinction between the two isn't obvious to you, you're NT. An AS person would launch into a dissection of what the possible meanings and relationships between the meanings could be and ask for clarification.) I'm overdoing my answer.. I'm sure of it... (*sigh*) Think of us as computers.. with emotion chip (yes yes yes, the Commander Data analogy).. that we don't know how to use.. even access. It's there, but we don't understand how it works. We study it.. analyze it, find ways to jab at it and make it do stuff.. sometimes by experimenting with the people we love unfortunately.. in an effort of connect. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 >> He never asks how I'm feeling, he tells me. At first I found it odd, then > unnerving and now irritating. He is seldom incorrect (probably why I'm so irritated) but it's > the fact that he focuses on me, rather than sharing him. Is this a common trait?<< I don't know if this is a common trait or not but I can do this also. In general I know what my husband is thinking or feeling before he does. Also I am nearly always right. Probably about 95% correct. For us this has been the thing that has saved our marriage. My husband grew up hiding all feelings even from himself (more than your average male). He would give me a positive answer to anything I wanted to do, said, etc. regardless of consequences. Had I been an irresponsible person I would have run us into the ground on so many levels. He rarely had an opinion. Anyway, underneath he was negative, opinionated, rude, and mean. So his real thoughts were impacting his behavior toward me and the kids but he would always look 'good' (not really good.... agreeable?) on the surface. I would know what he was really thinking/feeling but assumed I was wrong because it didn't make sense with the obvious. (I learned from a body language book that the smile he put on was essentially a clown face, a put on smile.) At some point I figured out that I was actually right and began to state to him what he was really feeling or thinking. At first he would get more angry and upset but I was tired of being lied to. Anyway, eventually this ability allowed him to get to the point where he realized the need to be a decent human being both inside and out and that if you only doing it on the outside the inside will inevitably come to the surface at the darndest times. Also that his way of dealing with life wasn't working any more. So at this point (we are Christians) he looks at me doing this as sort of a prophetic thing. (prophetic in the definition of 'truth telling' NOT future telling or 'God said'.) Jennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Usarian used to do this to me all of the time. Sometimes he was right. Most of the time he was wrong. When he was wrong he would argue with me trying to prove how he was right about I was feeling or thinking and I was not. It was MADDENING. This has been the defining issue in our marriage. When I disagreed with him I was "being argumentative", when I agreed with him I was "being patronizing", and when I shut up I was "being uncommunicative". I stepped of this merry-go-round five years ago and refuse to get back on it. This is the reason for my emotional distance. I can not share myself with him because quite honestly he doesn't want ME. He wants a mini me. Sorry if this sounds agitated. It is a sore topic for me. e From: Jennie Unknown Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:12 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out >> He never asks how I'm feeling, he tells me. At first I found it odd, then > unnerving and now irritating. He is seldom incorrect (probably why I'm so irritated) but it's > the fact that he focuses on me, rather than sharing him. Is this a common trait?<< I don't know if this is a common trait or not but I can do this also. In general I know what my husband is thinking or feeling before he does. Also I am nearly always right. Probably about 95% correct. For us this has been the thing that has saved our marriage. My husband grew up hiding all feelings even from himself (more than your average male). He would give me a positive answer to anything I wanted to do, said, etc. regardless of consequences. Had I been an irresponsible person I would have run us into the ground on so many levels. He rarely had an opinion. Anyway, underneath he was negative, opinionated, rude, and mean. So his real thoughts were impacting his behavior toward me and the kids but he would always look 'good' (not really good.... agreeable?) on the surface. I would know what he was really thinking/feeling but assumed I was wrong because it didn't make sense with the obvious. (I learned from a body language book that the smile he put on was essentially a clown face, a put on smile.) At some point I figured out that I was actually right and began to state to him what he was really feeling or thinking. At first he would get more angry and upset but I was tired of being lied to. Anyway, eventually this ability allowed him to get to the point where he realized the need to be a decent human being both inside and out and that if you only doing it on the outside the inside will inevitably come to the surface at the darndest times. Also that his way of dealing with life wasn't working any more. So at this point (we are Christians) he looks at me doing this as sort of a prophetic thing. (prophetic in the definition of 'truth telling' NOT future telling or 'God said'.) Jennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 e, I appreciate your candor. A lot of what you describe your marriage being like for you exists for me. Our kid’s situations seem to differ with their father though. Our kids have become annoyed at their father. They experience me as the hands on parent and their father rather like a ghost. They feel frustrated with his lack of involvement and experience only their mother teaching them practically everything. They have had some of the same conflicts with him I have and maybe worse. When they have tried to express their opinion, he shuts them down with his point of view. They also have found his conversation at dinner odd without my speaking up about it. Our motor skills even differ, and as they have gotten older remark about their father lagging behind on bicycles and kayaks. He has not been physically or emotionally consistent and dependable for them. He does not parent with me from the same page (ie I am the one demanding chores to be completed, homework to be done, and encouraging friendships). On outings with us, they notice the difference in his not sharing while the rest of us do share observations. He does not tolerate other’s emotions well, and his temper goes from 0 to 100 when faced with emotions and they hate living with that. I would not typify our children as loving their father to death but rather wanting to love a father more in depth. It is for these reasons almost more than my own personal reasons, I think our living apart would be better. When my husband goes away for a few days, our kids act happier, freer, and more relieved. I am at the stage where I encourage our kids to emotionally accept the loss they feel about not having a father that is connected to them. They know he cares about them but not for them. Even though he has many gifts which I also encourage them to appreciate and connect with him about, I think they feel they live with a father with a disability. If I stay, they will continue to be subjected to a dysfunctional marriage and that is not good. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I am sorry that things have worked out this way for you. Believe my I understand the need for you to get away. As I stated many times before, abuse is abuse and should never be tolerated. Some times that abuse comes in the form of neglect. You have to do what is right for you and your kids. My thoughts are with you. e From: Lori D. Cole Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:28 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out e, I appreciate your candor. A lot of what you describe your marriage being like for you exists for me. Our kid’s situations seem to differ with their father though. Our kids have become annoyed at their father. They experience me as the hands on parent and their father rather like a ghost. They feel frustrated with his lack of involvement and experience only their mother teaching them practically everything. They have had some of the same conflicts with him I have and maybe worse. When they have tried to express their opinion, he shuts them down with his point of view. They also have found his conversation at dinner odd without my speaking up about it. Our motor skills even differ, and as they have gotten older remark about their father lagging behind on bicycles and kayaks. He has not been physically or emotionally consistent and dependable for them. He does not parent with me from the same page (ie I am the one demanding chores to be completed, homework to be done, and encouraging friendships). On outings with us, they notice the difference in his not sharing while the rest of us do share observations. He does not tolerate other’s emotions well, and his temper goes from 0 to 100 when faced with emotions and they hate living with that. I would not typify our children as loving their father to death but rather wanting to love a father more in depth. It is for these reasons almost more than my own personal reasons, I think our living apart would be better. When my husband goes away for a few days, our kids act happier, freer, and more relieved. I am at the stage where I encourage our kids to emotionally accept the loss they feel about not having a father that is connected to them. They know he cares about them but not for them. Even though he has many gifts which I also encourage them to appreciate and connect with him about, I think they feel they live with a father with a disability. If I stay, they will continue to be subjected to a dysfunctional marriage and that is not good. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 e here. Usarian has struggled with anger but he is just now beginning to see it. I have set some very strict guidelines as to what are acceptable ways of showing this. I did this because I have five little boys to protect as well as myself. When I know Usarian is stressed or I am dealing with an issue that is sure to upset him I pretty much keep it from him until he is able to deal with it. I don't do this to deceive him. We will talk about it but with Usarian timing is everything. Like I have said I handle him and this is one of the ways. As for when I am wrong, and I have been wrong, usually I kinda just weather the storm and when he cools down I try to apologize. Usarian says that I don't apologize but I think that is because he does not remember. When he really loses his temper, or melts down, he really does not remember a lot of what happens. You can line up fifty people telling him what happened but he still won't believe it. I have been tempted to install a digital recorder in our house just for proof LOL Luckily for us, Usarian does not melt down too often. In our relationship these boundaries have been a saving grace. AS, at least my AS guys, like concrete boundaries and rules. Any way, that is just us. e From: haufortk Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:36 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Reaching out Hi Usarian, (and e)I wanted to ask about anger. My partner has described himself ashaving basically two emotions. Overly excited and overly angry. Theoverly excited part, well of course that's easy to take- but theoverly angry... If I do something "wrong" (and I say it in quotesbecause I believe that it is at times very true and at times veryuntrue) I can visibly see a curtain going down over his face. Hecloses on me and that's it. It takes at least a couple of hours beforehe is back again and approaching him in the in between time is likepoking a sleeping bear. Not a good idea. I'm totally ok with being wrong. I screw up. I'm human. But he takesmy 'errors' to a totally different level where I get squished into theground for them. I want to say to him, it's no picnic trying to dateyou! Cut me some slack! But when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I don't want todeny it! However, I need to communicate to him (and have tried to doso) that he needs to be kinder to me. Is this a losing battle? Will myrequest continue to fall on deaf ears?>> Usarian here,> > Lori's points in this message are good ones. e and I workedthrough every one of them. I wasn't stuck in bed, but I had a few..episodes.> > I just got one of my kids into cub scouts, with much much ado. Shementioned her process of getting me to do it on here a few times.. butI majorly resisted.. just as Lori said, work, side projects,"research" .. subjects I enjoy that I spend waaay too much timereading about on the internet.. all consume my time and attention. > > This is the "handling" that she does.> > Pretty bad isn't it.. I know she's doing it, I tell people she'sdoing it, yet I fall for it anyway...> > > Basically deciding roles around the house and with the kids, solvinghousehold problems, budgeting, agreeing on time and spendingpriorities, hidden psychological or physiological issues.. all basicmarriage stuff, but AS throws some spin into the mix. And falseassumptions about these as well as the unexpected are frequentlymountains instead of molehills for an Aspie.> > Usarian> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Karina, I don't remember who said it first, but I believe the best advice (If you do not like the ‘stop banging” slogan) for you is: " If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then stop. Life is too short. " And I am trying to follow that too J Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Ah - VERY good point! What is success?! I was coming back in to share a further thought and then spotted your post. I understand - and clearly you are intelligent and thoughtful. He is both and all those things you describe. It's perhaps confusing but this is it. All you describe is 'it' :-) To try to penetrate to the truth, to what's 'real' is irrelevant - ALL that which you describe...is all that there is. My further thought was to say... It's the frustration that's the real killer - keeping one's own emotions in check, all the time, so he won't get rattled. Swallowing emotion and rage, trying to keep the equanimity - I spent a fortune on chocolate keeping it all down. ;-) And it's exhausting. My mother, also an Aspie, was far more destructive but that's because I was a child and so much more vulnerable. My son is not destructive at all but that's only cos I'm his mum and thus we have a different kind of relationship. I am constantly crushed by the indifference that's at the base of his relationship with me - easy come, easy go - but it's my job, as a mother, not to be! None of them intend any of it - but if you are vulnerable (and NTs are that!) you will be crushed or you will have to fight for your space and wellbeing. To me, now, well, I'm far too tired for either. Love him to bits but as a dear friend. Don't invest your emotional well-being in him or give him your heart and expect him to nurture it. The hardest thing is that it's not cos he's a bad person but because he just can't. Our dear Aspies have exactly the same experiences in reverse. It's just as damaging and upsetting for them. Good luck! A. 2008/10/20 haufortk : > I know that you're not personally attacking me, but I feel as though I > need to defend myself. I do not, nor have I ever, love to bang my head > against a brick wall. I am attempting to educate myself to make > decision (stay in or get out) that either way will not be pleasant. As > I admitted, I had some dark times about a month ago, and that's when I > started to research, started to reach out. Now, with some concrete > experience and understanding, I am attempting to see what my limits > are, where this can and can't do. As I said in my first message, I > know I want this individual in my life, I just don't know if I " can " . > Obviously, I wouldn't be here, trying to figure this out, if he > weren't fully on board. He does not make me empty promises of happy, > happy days and him changing. He is the first to say that things may > change, but he never will. He can learn, we can adapt, but he is who > he is. I am not trying to change him, I'm trying to understand him. > While I don't know if this is a commonality, his intelligence and > ability to put on faces is unfathomable. We can for long periods of > time where I would never, and I do mean never, know that he is an > aspy. Then there are dark moments where I feel I hardly recognize him > at all. All of this is a learning process, for both of us. > I have not yet determined if he is entirely self-centered or totally > incapable of emotion. I don't know if he's acting, suited up with one > of his social personas. He has been incredibly tender, soft and warm. > Unfortunately he has also been hard, cold and emotionless. To me, they > are both in him. Perhaps i'm naive to think that way, that perhaps it > is all a facade, but that's why I'm here trying to learn as much as I > can before I get in too deep. > > Please don't apologize for being " brutal " . I appreciate your candor, I > need to hear it all. I'm not looking for a magic wand, I guess I'm > just wondering if it really is as dark as some portray it to be, or if > there are success stories out there as well. Then again, what is success? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Lori - How I laughed and laughed - thank you! Laughter the best medecine. Aspies don't laugh much and most especially not at themselves. Forgive me for making such sweeping statements but mine are much more likely to take offence at gentle teasing - even tho I laugh at myself all the time. I was forever trying to gently tease or tickle my son into a better mood - it always worked if he let it but mostly he'd rather stay grumpy. And both my husband and mother regard gentle humour intended to lighten the moment as a personal insult. It is difficult to stay buoyant when everyone around you constantly drags you down. I have been so tempted to tell them ALL to 'grow up'!! But that's partly it, isn't it - a developmental delay. In every way. The interesting thing is that my husband has a very clear view about my mother's narcissistic behaviour and TRULY has no idea that he does exactly the same things. He sounds a great guy, Karina. Very clear about who he is and what his limits are. Accept things are as he says and see if you can move forward from there. Good luck A. 2008/10/20 Lori D. Cole : > Karina, > > I don't remember who said it first, but I believe the best advice (If you do > not like the 'stop banging " slogan) for you is: > > " If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then stop. Life is too > short. " And I am trying to follow that too J > > Lori > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 It's the frustration that's the real killer - keeping one's ownemotions in check, all the time, so he won't get rattled. Swallowingemotion and rage, trying to keep the equanimity - I spent a fortune onchocolate keeping it all down. ;-) And it's exhausting. That is the best way I have heard it described. Amen!!!! e From: Astryngia Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 1:43 PM To: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Reaching out Ah - VERY good point! What is success?!I was coming back in to share a further thought and then spotted your post.I understand - and clearly you are intelligent and thoughtful.He is both and all those things you describe. It's perhaps confusingbut this is it. All you describe is 'it' :-)To try to penetrate to the truth, to what's 'real' is irrelevant - ALLthat which you describe...is all that there is.My further thought was to say...It's the frustration that's the real killer - keeping one's ownemotions in check, all the time, so he won't get rattled. Swallowingemotion and rage, trying to keep the equanimity - I spent a fortune onchocolate keeping it all down. ;-) And it's exhausting. My mother,also an Aspie, was far more destructive but that's because I was achild and so much more vulnerable. My son is not destructive at allbut that's only cos I'm his mum and thus we have a different kind ofrelationship. I am constantly crushed by the indifference that's atthe base of his relationship with me - easy come, easy go - but it'smy job, as a mother, not to be!None of them intend any of it - but if you are vulnerable (and NTs arethat!) you will be crushed or you will have to fight for your spaceand wellbeing. To me, now, well, I'm far too tired for either.Love him to bits but as a dear friend. Don't invest your emotionalwell-being in him or give him your heart and expect him to nurture it.The hardest thing is that it's not cos he's a bad person but becausehe just can't.Our dear Aspies have exactly the same experiences in reverse. It'sjust as damaging and upsetting for them.Good luck!A.2008/10/20 haufortk <karinahaufortgmail>:> I know that you're not personally attacking me, but I feel as though I> need to defend myself. I do not, nor have I ever, love to bang my head> against a brick wall. I am attempting to educate myself to make> decision (stay in or get out) that either way will not be pleasant. As> I admitted, I had some dark times about a month ago, and that's when I> started to research, started to reach out. Now, with some concrete> experience and understanding, I am attempting to see what my limits> are, where this can and can't do. As I said in my first message, I> know I want this individual in my life, I just don't know if I "can".> Obviously, I wouldn't be here, trying to figure this out, if he> weren't fully on board. He does not make me empty promises of happy,> happy days and him changing. He is the first to say that things may> change, but he never will. He can learn, we can adapt, but he is who> he is. I am not trying to change him, I'm trying to understand him.> While I don't know if this is a commonality, his intelligence and> ability to put on faces is unfathomable. We can for long periods of> time where I would never, and I do mean never, know that he is an> aspy. Then there are dark moments where I feel I hardly recognize him> at all. All of this is a learning process, for both of us.> I have not yet determined if he is entirely self-centered or totally> incapable of emotion. I don't know if he's acting, suited up with one> of his social personas. He has been incredibly tender, soft and warm.> Unfortunately he has also been hard, cold and emotionless. To me, they> are both in him. Perhaps i'm naive to think that way, that perhaps it> is all a facade, but that's why I'm here trying to learn as much as I> can before I get in too deep.>> Please don't apologize for being "brutal". I appreciate your candor, I> need to hear it all. I'm not looking for a magic wand, I guess I'm> just wondering if it really is as dark as some portray it to be, or if> there are success stories out there as well. Then again, what is success?>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 >>I guess I'mjust wondering if it really is as dark as some portray it to be, or ifthere are success stories out there as well. Then again, what is success?<< I guess I would say... if you can't reach a place where you are at peace and happy with this man BEFORE a commitment... the commitment will only make it worse. So make sure you are ok with it before. You are right to be questioning and searching and thinking about all this. I myself tend to not have such a dark view of AS. But then I AM AS so... Also my experiences have been different as I am AS woman married to NT man and so my perspective is different accordingly. Many times problems I see people expressing here on the list are the same ones I have had with my husband... so I have always stressed making sure you learn what is actually AS behavior and what is habit, being a jerk, or just personality. In the end you have to really be honest with whether or not you can really be with this one person for a lifetime without either wanting to kill yourself or him at some point. Regardless of his AS, in the end you are simply two human beings who may or may not mesh completely. Jennie AS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 > Aspies don't laugh much and most especially not at themselves. Wow! Where does that come from?! That's just exactly the opposite of the truth of it! Myself and the other AS I have known, including my own AS son, all laugh at ourselves and our own sillinesses several times a day! Our humor is different (though e is scarily beginning to indulge in it despite herself).. much more based on puns and literal vs nonliteral, or things being incorrect. Intentional and unintentional incorrectness is hilarious! Oh yeah, and the developmental delay... technically, it's explicitly NOT a delay in " every way " .. one of the defining characteristics of my autistic boy's diagnosis was " splintered " development, which we also see in myself and my AS guy. We develop mentally/emotionally in very specific and defined areas and ways, many times from WAAAAAY behind to significantly ahead of where we " should " be... And as far as narcissism, all you NT folks just havent learned yet we're better than everybody else.. we just accept it! Usarian (what's that smell? did I just put my foot in something?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 >I am AS woman married to NT man and so my perspective is different accordingly. Can I ask you... It seems to me that this scenario would ease things considerably.. AS is kind of like taking all the standard complaints women have had about men for eons and multiplying them by.. oh some random number... and men always saying " jeez I wish she wasn't so emotional! " For you it seems like it would be like.. " wow cool this is like the perfect woman! " .. detatched analytical thinking, less emotionally reactive and such.. what has been your experience from that direction in real life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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