Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 Hi . If I may comment, even though I don't take fish oil, I have searched far and wide for just the information you are looking for, and have found little. The official line everywhere seems to be that these things are harmless. However, I've been following the fish oil story for a long time, way before it was even thought of as a treatment for nephropathies. In the 80's, the news about fish oil was that it might prevent heart attacks and lower high blood pressure. This was primarily based on a study that had been published about Eskimos -- based on the idea that statistics showed at the time that they had an extremely low rate of heart disease, despite eating a very high fat diet. This was attributed to the oils in the fish they ate. But the flip side of it was that they also had an extremely high rate of bleeding stroke. I remember reading one popular heart disease book in the early 90's that recommended against the use of fish body oil supplements because of this. Now back to today. On the cardiology side of things, most heart associations recommend against using supplements, and recommend getting the benefits from eating fish instead. The only negative effects I can find that are published are the digestive problems, but more importantly, the anti-clotting effect which could result in excessive bleeding. Could it be that the fish oil is causing some localised under skin bleeding in your case, which ends up looking like purpura? This is what causes the purpura in HSP after all. Or perhaps you are simply allergic to fish oil, or the gelatin capsules themselves. Have you ever been allergic to any fish at all? Are the purpura you have much different than a bad case of hives? In any event, the benefits of taking fish oil are so minor, at best, that I doubt it would make a difference if you stopped taking them. I think you should discuss that with your doctor though. If you stopped taking them, and the rash started going away, I think any reasonable doctor would have to consider that they might well have been the source of the problem. Another idea might be to take an antihistamine for a few days and see what that does. But I must emphasize that I have never heard of this reaction in connection with fish oil. Maybe you are a first! Also, I admit I have a bias about this: I have never been convinced of the value of fish oil in treating IgAN, and I remain to be convinced. Hope that rash does go away though. That sounds awful. BTW, if anyone can find anything else about negative effects from fish oil, I would like to know too. Pierre BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their ability to > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing complete > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs can do this > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers (particularly > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer cousins, > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan and Avapro (I > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers proteinuria > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood pressure, no > matter what drug has to be used. > > Pierre > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 Dear Pierre As ever thanks so much for taking the time to research my questions, I didn't mean for you to use your valuable time on this, but am grateful nevertheless. To answer your question, as far as I am aware I have been absolutely fine eating fish, with no undue problems. However I do eat fish at least five times a week (your worst nightmare huh LOL!!!), I eat mainly tuna steaks, or tuna out of a can, simply because I do not touch red meat of any kind, and eat chicken only once or twice a week, purely because I can't digest red meat very well, and I just don't like it. I do eat a lot fresh vegetables, but limited fruit, because again too much and I suffer. It would make sense maybe that perhaps as I eat so much fresh fish, the capsules are just overkill. I have re-read the back messages on the merits of taking fish oil, and I have to say the benefit of taking it seems to nil, so I have decided to stop it, until more concrete evidence comes to light that it does indeed help with IGAN. My doctor will support my decision I am sure, because he is, by his own admission, in the dark about the 'do's and don't's as I am....well at least he is honest! My Neph has never offered an opinion one way or the other, just said it would not do any harm if I took it. Maddeningly frustrating when the medics are so non-committal!!!! Like you have said many times, you are dumped with your diagnosis, and then basically your on your own, to do research, and come to terms with the condition. As far as the rash is concerned, never having had hives, or seen a case of anyone with it, I am unsure what hives are, or what causes them. My own rash did not look pleasant, and was probably worse looking that it actually was harmful. As I said it is now going.....I shall be glad when the ones on my scalp have gone, as washing my hair (I use tea tree shampoo ...ouch!), the stinging was not nice.!!!! On the positive side, I shall be saving myself a small fortune with not taking fish oil tables, it was very an expensive exercise!!! Once again thanks for your help. Best wishes Re: Fish Oil Hi . If I may comment, even though I don't take fish oil, I have searched far and wide for just the information you are looking for, and have found little. The official line everywhere seems to be that these things are harmless. However, I've been following the fish oil story for a long time, way before it was even thought of as a treatment for nephropathies. In the 80's, the news about fish oil was that it might prevent heart attacks and lower high blood pressure. This was primarily based on a study that had been published about Eskimos -- based on the idea that statistics showed at the time that they had an extremely low rate of heart disease, despite eating a very high fat diet. This was attributed to the oils in the fish they ate. But the flip side of it was that they also had an extremely high rate of bleeding stroke. I remember reading one popular heart disease book in the early 90's that recommended against the use of fish body oil supplements because of this. Now back to today. On the cardiology side of things, most heart associations recommend against using supplements, and recommend getting the benefits from eating fish instead. The only negative effects I can find that are published are the digestive problems, but more importantly, the anti-clotting effect which could result in excessive bleeding. Could it be that the fish oil is causing some localised under skin bleeding in your case, which ends up looking like purpura? This is what causes the purpura in HSP after all. Or perhaps you are simply allergic to fish oil, or the gelatin capsules themselves. Have you ever been allergic to any fish at all? Are the purpura you have much different than a bad case of hives? In any event, the benefits of taking fish oil are so minor, at best, that I doubt it would make a difference if you stopped taking them. I think you should discuss that with your doctor though. If you stopped taking them, and the rash started going away, I think any reasonable doctor would have to consider that they might well have been the source of the problem. Another idea might be to take an antihistamine for a few days and see what that does. But I must emphasize that I have never heard of this reaction in connection with fish oil. Maybe you are a first! Also, I admit I have a bias about this: I have never been convinced of the value of fish oil in treating IgAN, and I remain to be convinced. Hope that rash does go away though. That sounds awful. BTW, if anyone can find anything else about negative effects from fish oil, I would like to know too. Pierre BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their ability to > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing complete > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs can do this > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers (particularly > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer cousins, > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan and Avapro (I > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers proteinuria > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood pressure, no > matter what drug has to be used. > > Pierre > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 , My pleasure. What we call hives over on this side of the Atlantic is an allergic reaction that shows up as red, sometimes slightly raised patches on the skin. I've had it with ACE inhibitors, as a matter of fact. Again, your rash may have nothing at all to do with anything you're taking, but the only way to find out is to stop taking it and see. Good luck. Pierre BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their ability to > > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing complete > > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs can do > this > > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers > (particularly > > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer > cousins, > > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan and Avapro > (I > > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers > proteinuria > > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood pressure, no > > matter what drug has to be used. > > > > Pierre > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 Interestingly enough, I've been off of my Fish Oil since Monday. I came down with a rash last week, which my doctor initially thought was dry skin. Of course, I was red and dry all over my body. Monday he had me see a dermatologist, and they took me off of Lasix and Fish Oil pills. My skin is just starting to return to normal. Once clear, I'm going to add Fish Oil back into the mix, and see if it comes back. If it does, I'm swearing them off forever. They are foul, for all of the reasons that mentions. I've never itched so much in my whole life from this rash... Walt > Hi . > > If I may comment, even though I don't take fish oil, I have searched far and > wide for just the information you are looking for, and have found little. > The official line everywhere seems to be that these things are harmless. > However, I've been following the fish oil story for a long time, way before > it was even thought of as a treatment for nephropathies. In the 80's, the > news about fish oil was that it might prevent heart attacks and lower high > blood pressure. This was primarily based on a study that had been published > about Eskimos -- based on the idea that statistics showed at the time that > they had an extremely low rate of heart disease, despite eating a very high > fat diet. This was attributed to the oils in the fish they ate. But the flip > side of it was that they also had an extremely high rate of bleeding stroke. > I remember reading one popular heart disease book in the early 90's that > recommended against the use of fish body oil supplements because of this. > > Now back to today. On the cardiology side of things, most heart associations > recommend against using supplements, and recommend getting the benefits from > eating fish instead. The only negative effects I can find that are published > are the digestive problems, but more importantly, the anti-clotting effect > which could result in excessive bleeding. Could it be that the fish oil is > causing some localised under skin bleeding in your case, which ends up > looking like purpura? This is what causes the purpura in HSP after all. Or > perhaps you are simply allergic to fish oil, or the gelatin capsules > themselves. Have you ever been allergic to any fish at all? Are the purpura > you have much different than a bad case of hives? > > In any event, the benefits of taking fish oil are so minor, at best, that I > doubt it would make a difference if you stopped taking them. I think you > should discuss that with your doctor though. If you stopped taking them, and > the rash started going away, I think any reasonable doctor would have to > consider that they might well have been the source of the problem. Another > idea might be to take an antihistamine for a few days and see what that > does. > > But I must emphasize that I have never heard of this reaction in connection > with fish oil. Maybe you are a first! Also, I admit I have a bias about > this: I have never been convinced of the value of fish oil in treating IgAN, > and I remain to be convinced. > > Hope that rash does go away though. That sounds awful. > > BTW, if anyone can find anything else about negative effects from fish oil, > I would like to know too. > > Pierre > > > BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their ability to > > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing complete > > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs can do > this > > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers > (particularly > > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer > cousins, > > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan and Avapro > (I > > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers > proteinuria > > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood pressure, no > > matter what drug has to be used. > > > > Pierre > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 , I know what you mean about the docs being non-committal. I think to be a nephrologist, it's part of their Hippocratic Oath to say nothing. Or maybe, and I hate to think this, that they just don't know anything about this disease. It seems to be a " pathologist's disease " . They can identify all sorts of things on biopsy, but there are no answers. > >Reply-To: iga-nephropathyegroups >To: <iga-nephropathyegroups> >Subject: Re: Fish Oil >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:45:59 -0500 > >, >My pleasure. What we call hives over on this side of the Atlantic is an >allergic reaction that shows up as red, sometimes slightly raised patches >on >the skin. I've had it with ACE inhibitors, as a matter of fact. > >Again, your rash may have nothing at all to do with anything you're taking, >but the only way to find out is to stop taking it and see. > >Good luck. > >Pierre > > > > > > BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > > > > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their >ability >to > > > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing complete > > > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs can do > > this > > > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers > > (particularly > > > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer > > cousins, > > > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan and >Avapro > > (I > > > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers > > proteinuria > > > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood pressure, >no > > > matter what drug has to be used. > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 I'm willing to sacrifice my body for the group for at least a couple of days. The dermatologist thought it might be Lasix, but since I've knocked off both Lasix and Fish Oil, I have to add one back. I'm willing to add back the fish oil for a couple of days... > > > Hi . > > > > > > If I may comment, even though I don't take fish oil, I have > >searched far and > > > wide for just the information you are looking for, and have found > >little. > > > The official line everywhere seems to be that these things are > >harmless. > > > However, I've been following the fish oil story for a long time, > >way before > > > it was even thought of as a treatment for nephropathies. In the > >80's, the > > > news about fish oil was that it might prevent heart attacks and > >lower high > > > blood pressure. This was primarily based on a study that had been > >published > > > about Eskimos -- based on the idea that statistics showed at the > >time that > > > they had an extremely low rate of heart disease, despite eating a > >very high > > > fat diet. This was attributed to the oils in the fish they ate. But > >the flip > > > side of it was that they also had an extremely high rate of > >bleeding stroke. > > > I remember reading one popular heart disease book in the early 90's > >that > > > recommended against the use of fish body oil supplements because of > >this. > > > > > > Now back to today. On the cardiology side of things, most heart > >associations > > > recommend against using supplements, and recommend getting the > >benefits from > > > eating fish instead. The only negative effects I can find that are > >published > > > are the digestive problems, but more importantly, the anti- clotting > >effect > > > which could result in excessive bleeding. Could it be that the fish > >oil is > > > causing some localised under skin bleeding in your case, which ends > >up > > > looking like purpura? This is what causes the purpura in HSP after > >all. Or > > > perhaps you are simply allergic to fish oil, or the gelatin capsules > > > themselves. Have you ever been allergic to any fish at all? Are the > >purpura > > > you have much different than a bad case of hives? > > > > > > In any event, the benefits of taking fish oil are so minor, at > >best, that I > > > doubt it would make a difference if you stopped taking them. I > >think you > > > should discuss that with your doctor though. If you stopped taking > >them, and > > > the rash started going away, I think any reasonable doctor would > >have to > > > consider that they might well have been the source of the problem. > >Another > > > idea might be to take an antihistamine for a few days and see what > >that > > > does. > > > > > > But I must emphasize that I have never heard of this reaction in > >connection > > > with fish oil. Maybe you are a first! Also, I admit I have a bias > >about > > > this: I have never been convinced of the value of fish oil in > >treating IgAN, > > > and I remain to be convinced. > > > > > > Hope that rash does go away though. That sounds awful. > > > > > > BTW, if anyone can find anything else about negative effects from > >fish oil, > > > I would like to know too. > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > BP meds that reduce proteinuria > > > > > > > > By the way, we have often talked about ACE inhibitors and their > >ability to > > > > reduce proteinuria (sometimes). In the interest of providing > >complete > > > > information, I should point out that other blood pressure drugs > >can do > > > this > > > > too. This includes beta blockers and calcium channel blockers > > > (particularly > > > > diltiazem), and it also seems to include the ACE inhibitors' newer > > > cousins, > > > > the angiotensin II AT-1 receptor blockers, like Cozaar, Diovan > >and Avapro > > > (I > > > > use the abbreviation ARB for these). Also, whether a drug lowers > > > proteinuria > > > > or not, there is great benefit just from lowering the blood > >pressure, no > > > > matter what drug has to be used. > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2001 Report Share Posted August 23, 2001 Hi, Dan. I don't know anything about the term " molecular distilled, " but my nutritionist did warn me about purchasing fish oil that could have metal contamination. He said that it depends on where, globally, the fish are caught and processed. I buy my fish oil from him, but I am pretty sure that this is not just his way to get me to buy his stuff. (He is a long-time friend and an honest man). The bottle does not say " molecular distilled. " Sorry that my reply doesn't tell you anything much. You may find a lot of helpful information if you run a search on " fish " in the archives. Take care, > Pierre, > > Speaking of fish oil, I've read somewhere that this must be labelled as > molecular distilled, in order to be safe from toxic heavy metal traces and > other dangerous contaminants, that abide in today's polluted sea waters and > tend to accumulate in fish through the food chain. Do you think this is a > well founded statement or it is just a marketing trick by some companies? > In any case, I've taken this seriously and use only molecular distilled > fish oil, albeit its higher price. By the way, do you know of any online > suppliers of good quality, inexpensive fish oil capsules, preferably in the > UK or Europe, as shipping costs from the other side of the Atlantic to this > country are really expensive? I greatly appreciate your answers. Thank you, > Dan. > > > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:34:07 -0400 > From: " Pierre " <pgl-groups@s...> > Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 313 - To Pierre & Jen > > Teri, it depends on how much EPA and DHA are in those 1000mg capsules. The > original one's where you were supposed to take 12 x 1000mg pills per day > contained EPA 180 and DHA 120. Since then, some formulations have come on > the market that contain more. You should only buy fish oil that has the > amount of EPA/DHA printed on the label, otherwise, you can't be sure of what > you're getting. Yes, a more recent published result from the Mayo clinic > trials seemed to indicate half that amount is just as good (I would have to > go back and check on this, since I don't exactly remember the details, but > there should be a past message about it in the message archive, with the > exact amounts). > Pierre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2001 Report Share Posted August 23, 2001 Hi Dan. Don't know anything about molecular distillation, but my nutritionist recommended deep sea fish body oil to avoid contamination, so I try to get stuff labelled with deep sea. I used to just get it from my local health food store. From: patroklos@... Reply-To: iga-nephropathy To: iga-nephropathy Subject: fish oil Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:46:02 +0300 Pierre, Speaking of fish oil, I've read somewhere that this must be labelled as molecular distilled, in order to be safe from toxic heavy metal traces and other dangerous contaminants, that abide in today's polluted sea waters and tend to accumulate in fish through the food chain. Do you think this is a well founded statement or it is just a marketing trick by some companies? In any case, I've taken this seriously and use only molecular distilled fish oil, albeit its higher price. By the way, do you know of any online suppliers of good quality, inexpensive fish oil capsules, preferably in the UK or Europe, as shipping costs from the other side of the Atlantic to this country are really expensive? I greatly appreciate your answers. Thank you, Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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