Re: meltdown

[Guest guest]



Everyone has the potential to have an uncontrollable meltdown. Isn't this why we object to torture of prisoners? And isn't that the intent.... to get the person to meltdown... i.e. lose control? It doesn't matter if you are AS or NT if there is sufficient amount of trigger or negative stimuli you will melt down out of your control.

The control an AS ADULT has is to keep a record of what triggers meltdown and stay away from that as much as is possible. It is not always possible depending on job situation, family, spouse, kids, etc.

Just as an NT adult does this... no one volunteers to be sensory tormented... yet clearly we know this is what causes a prisoner to meltdown since that is what they use to 'humanely' torture someone. Bright lights, flashing lights, loud noise, cold and hot, etc. To the AS person much of typical NT surroundings are torture.

AS kids clearly do not have near the control because A. They are younger and have less control in themselves, but B. They are not allowed control of their environment and often their parents are not aware of what is triggering them... (I think this is the point Bill was making.)

All this being said I do believe it is possible for AS people to maintain control of their life with a lot of thought and planning and support from a spouse or love one if they have one. (in other words no yapping about being stuck in a routine, no causing triggers, etc and so forth) Perhaps this is something Usarian has somehow managed to achieve without a lot of awareness of doing it. I know I started even as a kid without being aware of doing it. I managed my life in such a way that I was not ever pushed over the edge. I also would also choose to meltdown when in a time and place where there would be no people around to see me. I was incredibly private even as a little kid. I remember hiding in the hay loft of the barn and melting down, running through the woods in the back 40 (acres) melting down, taking off on a horse galloping riding bareback and nearly falling off the entire time (because I was a clutz and needed the saddle), etc. I always chose to meltdown away from people. I did not go back to where people were until I was in control again and all signs of crying were gone. I never, ever wanted anyone to know there was 'something wrong with me'. Maybe it is because of that level of self awareness that I developed this control. But maybe it is folks like me that can show the way for others who didn't have that awareness while growing up. To day the only times I have melted down in front of someone is with my husband and only then because HE was the trigger by being a continual jackass for days on end, trying to get me to take charge of things in our life that I simply was not equipped to do. He insisted and I got to the point were I felt the only way he might get the point would be if I allowed myself to meltdown AT him instead of doing it by myself. He never believed that AS was a problem for me partly because of my ability to control my meltdowns. Finally there came a day when I melted down without choice AT him, it is an experience I do not care to repeat or even think about. There are situations in which an AS person might be bombarded past the point of self control. Just as with any person. My method of control works because it's not so much focused on stopping the meltdown as in redirecting the meltdown. Still as I just shared with sufficient amount of pressure I was unable to redirect the meltdown. And no I didn't feel good after.

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Usarian,

I would say it is predictable and then redirectable... not so much controllable.

Jennie

[Guest guest]

,

I had to look up audiogenic seizures http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic687.htm

Very interesting reading. Thanks

I do like your analogy. I agree that we can prevent some once we figure out a trigger but once they are into meltdown they aren't really in control in a way that they can just stop. Sometimes "stuff happens" and you are clueless.

We took the boys 4-5 years ago to a train show in 's town on the other side of the mountain. Going over Mt Hood ryan screamed for 100 miles out the window "Help! Help! We're all going to die" while kicking the back of the drivers seat (I was driving) and was curled up in a ball holding his ears saying "Make him stop". We had no way of knowing that had learned about volcanoes in school that week and Mt St Helen's had burped a few days earlier. No place to pull over, we are next to a cliff and we can't take the chance of him bolting from the car so we just kept going until we were off the mountain. We stopped in the first parking lot we came to and let him out. We just stood by until he was ok again.

is normally the mild mannered kid not prone to behavior problems. We haven't had to think so hard with him to head trouble off but he is also more physically dangerous to himself or others if you try to hug/hold him. Then you would think he had 8 arms and 8 legs flying everywhere.

Can you tell when these audiogenic seizures are coming on? Can you identify certain sounds that are 100% sure to cause a seizure so you can attempt to avoid that sound as best you can?

I'm saving your post for my daughter. Sometimes we can only use the words we have been given even when they don't feel quite right. Your analogy felt exactly right for me and easy to relate to even if you know nothing about AS. A very good one for school officials.

Again,

Thanks

Lorelie

To: aspires-relationships From: daysbays@...Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:50:28 +0000Subject: Re: meltdown

i think bill said this:

>In my limited experience, AS rarely if ever "stress themselves" wholly >and entirely without an external trigger.

followed by Usarian response:

I will never ever buy into this line of thinking. AS meltdowns are 100% controlled and controllable by the individual melting down.

me here:an interesting observation, but approach it this way.

are AS meldowns uncontrollable?

I think they are...similar to seizures they are sudden onsets of a sensation of an emotion.

i am prone to audiogenic seizures where certain noises will trigger a meltdown.

I think the term meltdown implies a compariosn to a nuclear reactor and therefore a system is in place to prevent or control this event.

but i think "meltdowns" may convey better meaning of described as seizures. where one can be prevented from happening but once it occurs, then leave immediately. once initiated it cannot be controlled. and despite the best efforts to have a system of checks in place to prevent them, they still happen.

a seizure description may imply a degree of uncontrollability.......and un-preventability.

so meltdowns we can prevent but cant control.

seizures we can neither prevent or control.

you said:

A small child does not have the discipline or the maturity to have honed the skill yet, or understand his decision tree that adds up to a meltdown. I came to understand the process at around. I have tried to teach my boy, and he has "gotten" some of it, but he's far from "being there".

me here:

it may be possible to control an environment to become AS friendly

and therefore prevent a meltdown or external meldown triggers.

you said:

Boiled down, what I'm saying is that I can't imagine a high functioning AS person melting down unless they have made the decision to do so. I would say that there is something of an "age of accountability" to it with children, however. No grown adult could or should "get away" with that kind of behavior toward other people. We are responsible for our actions and I hope we continue to be in the eyes of both the culture and the law. If we become not responsible for our actions, then Aspergers in particular will have been (incorrectly) accepted as a mental illness as the final word.

me here:

we have moved from controlling and preventing meltdowns to a debate about free choice and conciosuness." Im responsible for all that happens to me and for all that i do to you" type argument.

let me sum this up succinctly for you all:

meltdowns can be prevented.

meldowns cannot be controlled.

anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something.

37 m diagnosd AS. See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. See Now

[Guest guest]

Subject: RE: meltdownTo: aspires-relationships Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 5:55 PM

you said:

Can you tell when these audiogenic seizures are coming on? Can you identify certain sounds that are 100% sure to cause a seizure so you can attempt to avoid that sound as best you can? I'm saving your post for my daughter. Sometimes we can only use the words we have been given even when they don't feel quite right. Your analogy felt exactly right for me and easy to relate to even if you know nothing about AS. A very good one for school officials. Again, Thanks Lorelie

me here: ok lorelie i am glad your finding the posts easy to read.

..

as for the recognition of sounds i too am humbled by an idling tractor, a diesel engine, heavy metal rock music and the prosody of people who

talk for the sake of talking, they talk to be heard and the inflection in their voice or lack of it i am very sensitive too.

they talk so much you can even see the moment when they bore themselves when they realise that no one is really listening. there is a lack of intent in their voice. problem is, most of them aslo have AS.

the problem with seizures is this: i can recognise and explain describe abd detail what causes a meltdown/seizure for me.

in great detail. i can tell you what causes them, what happens, what i want you to do, what i want me to do and what i want to happen. i can tell you this when i am calm and relaxed.

then i will have a meltdown and i will apologise and then do it again 5 minutes/months.weeks later.

i can tell you what triggers them, but once triggered i cant stop it.

the analogy is this:

it is like ducking from a gun once you hear the bang.

you know a bang from a gun is a bad thing, you will avoid it and

try and prevent it. everyone knows this.

but recognising a seizure is a bit like saying you need to respond to a banging gun and get out of the way.

in the analogy it is too late.

i think most AS can describe a seizure and have a preference for avoiding them but cant stop one once it starts.

i can tell you what i do and i can apologise for doing it.

i can tell you what will happen.

i cant stop it.

37 m diagnosed AS

To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comFrom: daysbaysyahoo (DOT) co.ukDate: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:50:28 +0000Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] meltdown

i think bill said this:

>In my limited experience, AS rarely if ever "stress themselves" wholly >and entirely without an external trigger.

followed by Usarian response:

I will never ever buy into this line of thinking. AS meltdowns are 100% controlled and controllable by the individual melting down.

me here:an interesting observation, but approach it this way.

are AS meldowns uncontrollable?

I think they are...similar to seizures they are sudden onsets of a sensation of an emotion.

i am prone to audiogenic seizures where certain noises will trigger a meltdown.

I think the term meltdown implies a compariosn to a nuclear reactor and therefore a system is in place to prevent or control this event.

but i think "meltdowns" may convey better meaning of described as seizures. where one can be prevented from happening but once it occurs, then leave immediately. once initiated it cannot be controlled. and despite the best efforts to have a system of checks in place to prevent them, they still happen.

a seizure description may imply a degree of uncontrollability. ......and un-preventability.

so meltdowns we can prevent but cant control.

seizures we can neither prevent or control.

you said:

A small child does not have the discipline or the maturity to have honed the skill yet, or understand his decision tree that adds up to a meltdown. I came to understand the process at around. I have tried to teach my boy, and he has "gotten" some of it, but he's far from "being there".

me here:

it may be possible to control an environment to become AS friendly

and therefore prevent a meltdown or external meldown triggers.

you said:

Boiled down, what I'm saying is that I can't imagine a high functioning AS person melting down unless they have made the decision to do so. I would say that there is something of an "age of accountability" to it with children, however. No grown adult could or should "get away" with that kind of behavior toward other people. We are responsible for our actions and I hope we continue to be in the eyes of both the culture and the law. If we become not responsible for our actions, then Aspergers in particular will have been (incorrectly) accepted as a mental illness as the final word.

me here:

we have moved from controlling and preventing meltdowns to a debate about free choice and conciosuness. " Im responsible for all that happens to me and for all that i do to you" type argument.

let me sum this up succinctly for you all:

meltdowns can be prevented.

meldowns cannot be controlled.

anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something.

37 m diagnosd AS.

See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. See Now

[Guest guest]

Hi

Now this is only my personal opinion, as a mother of a 13 year old Aspie i have to say that 'meltdown' is unpredictable because i never know when my son actually will meltdown, i know when he is 'rumbling' and the inevitable outcome of this rumbling stage is a meltdown, i just don't know how long he will 'rumble' for hence the unpredictability.

My son is most definitely unable to control his meltdown, and what he does or says during a meltdown, as he can never remember details of the 'event' ie, he does not remember a time during a meltdown when he tried to throw himself out of his first floor bedroom window, he did not even believe me when i told him about this, yet at the time of the event when i was stopping him from doing this he just kept repeating "i have to get away, i have to get away", he is not aware of his actions nor is he aware of who is with him at such a time hence the inability to control himself, ie, had i not been there he most definitely would have thrown himself out of the window, his common sense not to do such a dangerous thing was over rided by the 'red mist' rage of his meltdown.

I have learnt how to divert my sons anxiety by using certain calming methods, sometimes they work and we are able to diffuse his rumbling, sometimes they don't, we just take each day as it comes, if he has a meltdown we deal with it the best we can, i KNOW the meltdown is not something he enjoys and something he can control, i don't love him any the less and would never ever resent him for his actions during a meltdown.

Please don't anyone think i'm talking rubbish, it's just as i said, my opinion.

Elaine

Re: meltdown

I honestly think I need to fully backpedal here on the meltdown thing. You all got me thinking.To be fully honest here, I just had a meltdown a few days ago myself. Total blowout. Came explosively out of nowehere and felt uncontrollable.Problem is this: if it's uncontrollable, then my wife should up an leave and I should bless her for doing so. I should not be around people and cannot be held accountable for my actions. She and my family should not ever have to put up with that unpredicability.That is an unacceptable conclusion, therefore I MUST control myself. If I MUST control myself, then I must be able to control myself, despite my recent failure to do so.BUT if this truly is both completely uncontrollable and completely unpredictable. .. maybe that's the point there. I say it's unpredictable, so it must be controllable.Others say it's uncontrollable, but is predictable.Possibility, it is

neither controllable OR predictable.If that truly is the case, then the cure people and the mental illness people must be correct.Ugh... I'm breaking my head.. somebody fix this logic for me.....

[Guest guest]

Usarian, in my limited NT experience, I believe you are right. I

can't express any knowledge regarding children, but I have seen my AS

husband control his going into a meltdown after I gave him

conseqences for that behavior. His violent meltdowns amounted to

abuse. Before the threat of 'consequences', I would tip toe around

him for fear that he was going to have a meltdown, and yet he still

had them. Once I stopped doing that and told him that I wasn't

going to tolerate his tirades (screaming, throwing things, slamming

doors, etc) any more, he is <outwardly at least> keeping himself

under control. Because of this, he seems to be on more of an even

keel most of the time, and seems to be enjoying his life more. I

believe the people here have helped me to grow and I am now careful

to pick my 'battles' concerning an AS behavior. Thus reducing

stress for him. So it been a two-way growth. Verleen

P.S. I see so many children out of control nowadays. Its largely

due to poor parenting. And the parents excuses about why

their 'gifted' child needs special consideration. I'm not talking

about AS children. In general, kids will behave depending on what

their parents allow. As for AS kids, I know there is a set of

challenges I have never experienced and know nothing about.

>

> >In my limited experience, AS rarely if ever " stress themselves "

wholly

> >and entirely without an external trigger.

>

> I will never ever buy into this line of thinking. AS meltdowns are

100% controlled and controllable by the individual melting down. A

small child does not have the discipline or the maturity to have

honed the skill yet, or understand his decision tree that adds up to

a meltdown. I came to understand the process at around. I have

tried to teach my boy, and he has " gotten " some of it, but he's far

from " being there " .

>

> Boiled down, what I'm saying is that I can't imagine a high

functioning AS person melting down unless they have made the decision

to do so. I would say that there is something of an " age of

accountability " to it with children, however. No grown adult could

or should " get away " with that kind of behavior toward other people.

We are responsible for our actions and I hope we continue to be in

the eyes of both the culture and the law. If we become not

responsible for our actions, then Aspergers in particular will have

been (incorrectly) accepted as a mental illness as the final word.

>

> Usarian

>

[Guest guest]

Jennie, this is so true. I have had some meltdowns too. My trigger

is not being able to physically do something that I use to be able to

do, like opening a jar. Or nearly falling because my legs gave out.

I am always alone when I have these meltdowns. I don't want anyone

seeing me behave like a spoiled brat......lol. When I actually fall

and have to call '911' (as there's not much to eat on the floor, and I

never conveniently fall with a pillow for my head), I don't have a

meltdown. Too late and I need help, so what's the sense of personally

flogging myself. So you are right; many people have meltdown

triggers. Verleen

>

> Everyone has the potential to have an uncontrollable meltdown. Isn't

this why we object to torture of prisoners? And isn't that the

intent.... to get the person to meltdown... i.e. lose control? It

doesn't matter if you are AS or NT if there is sufficient amount of

trigger or negative stimuli you will melt down out of your control.

[Guest guest]

For those who *demand* advice on _WHAT TO DO_ about AS meltdowns, " what

works " (or doesn't), there are interesting clues " out there " .

A few years old, but possibly timeless:

<http://www.torey-hayden.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat & Number=11289\

>

The site *is* active however. A few (forum) posts on autism:

<http://www.torey-hayden.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist & Board=7 & page\

=1>

....there are surprises, maybe, for some.

Browsing the entire site may reward those who enjoy a 'change of scene',

an enduring and non-pushy approach to " difficult " children.

- Bill, 76, dx AS; ...eclectic tastes

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Usarian,

My husband is on mood stabilizing medication,

and his irritable reactions (door slamming is a favorite) have subsided. He

wants to eliminate the medication due to side effects (memory loss and worse

motor skills), insisting that he will be able to control himself now that he

sees the bad effects (on him) of being reactive. The doctor has suggested

to taper down after a little more time. He does not remember his angrier

times.

This is expensive but these folks offer

training for AS professionals who have reached a plateau in their career

because of social issues.

“The training you mentioned is individualized.

Elsa Abele, a retired BU communications professor, meets with one person

at a time to provide intensive training. You can find out more about

it at http://www.aane.org/aane_services/consultation_training.html “

Lori

[Guest guest]

This is a generic response to the meltdownmail trail.Just wanted to say that not all meltdownsare spectacular drama changed events. I do not display wild emotionsbut I do go very quiet, (my wife says it is very similar to sulking) andneed time out. If that cannot happen I tend to become unsociableand switch off. Once I have had timeout to centre myself again thenI am able to become more sociable. The problem is that this can beunpredictable and can take me by surprise. In regard to triggers, emotional outburstsfrom my wife and anyone else tend to trigger such feelings. Those outburstscan be because they are getting a message from me that is inconsistentwith what I feel. I have not learned to (or perhaps do not havethe capability) to regulate my emotional responses so I cope by turningthem off. I do not trust myself to respond in the right way. Sowhile I can mentally acknowledge this I seem to be unable to learn fromit. Relationships with spouses and children seem to be real emotionalminefields for me.My wife's view of all this is that Iam arrogant and lacking in empathy. When I need timeout my familyview that as rejection by me of them, but that is never the intent. Itis something I feel compelled to do so that I can regain my equiibrium.Just to illustrate, I had a really confrontingdiscussion with my wife and while it upset me very much I did not (couldnot) process the emotional storm and for the next 2 days shutdown by workinglong hours until on the third day I was able to come home at a reasonablehour and start talking again. That led to another really challengingand confronting discussion. So the cycle sometimes repeats itself.Just me and for what it is worth.Greg dx AS at 53 " Lori D. Cole " Sent by: aspires-relationships 03/10/2008 02:21 AMPlease respond toaspires-relationships To<aspires-relationships >ccSubjectRe: meltdownUsarian,My husband is on mood stabilizingmedication, and his irritable reactions (door slamming is a favorite) havesubsided. He wants to eliminate the medication due to side effects(memory loss and worse motor skills), insisting that he will be able tocontrol himself now that he sees the bad effects (on him) of being reactive. The doctor has suggested to taper down after a little more time. He does not remember his angrier times. This is expensive but these folksoffer training for AS professionals who have reached a plateau in theircareer because of social issues. “The training you mentioned is individualized. Elsa Abele, a retired BU communications professor, meets with oneperson at a time to provide intensive training. You can find outmore about it at http://www.aane.org/aane_services/consultation_training.html“Lori

[Guest guest]

Greg,

Your post is interesting. I believe my mother had these reactions: as a girl, I remember her telling me to be quiet or go away, and then, saying that it was not anything I had done. I never believed her at the time: after learning about being AS (and learning that she likely was as well), I now belive her completely. It never laasted that long--maybe 30 minutes. I wonder if this is what you are talking about- though she also had times when she would get incredibly angry without worning- and later told me that she took things till she could not stand it anymore, because she did not know when she was enaring that point.

I had similar issues myself, till I learned tp pray for help when I conjectured, by the events that occurred, that I might be feeling like melting down soon. For example, when I lose something I really need to find quickly, I pray that I will find it, and also for help in staying calm. I do not feel upset at the time, but I know that without the Lord's help, my frustration level will go from low to high very quickly. It works for me. If I did not do this, I would be melting down plenty, I am sure.

I like your reference to how your family took things. I took it personally too, when my mother melted down- but part of that was that in yellling at me, she blamed me, and even though the whole thing was out of proportion, I believed what she said. Then, when she apologized later (if she did- this depended on whether she still blamed me), I corrected my impression.

People's getting quiet used to be hard for me, because i could not read whether they were upset, and did not kown if I needed to try to fix something. I guess it is a two way street: do NTs feel the same way if they cannot read a person with AS? I am learning to try to communicate what is going on (e.g. say I am thinking when I am, even if my face is screwing up in the process as I am working out all the negative cases along with the positive ones).

AS Official for about 7 months, self-dx about 15 months, but AS my whole life <grin>

Subject: Re: meltdownTo: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 7:16 PM

This is a generic response to the meltdown mail trail. Just wanted to say that not all meltdowns are spectacular drama changed events. I do not display wild emotions but I do go very quiet, (my wife says it is very similar to sulking) and need time out. If that cannot happen I tend to become unsociable and switch off. Once I have had timeout to centre myself again then I am able to become more sociable. The problem is that this can be unpredictable and can take me by surprise. In regard to triggers, emotional outbursts from my wife and anyone else tend to trigger such feelings. Those outbursts can be because they are getting a message from me that is inconsistent with what I feel. I have not learned to (or perhaps do not have the capability) to regulate my emotional responses so I cope by

turning them off. I do not trust myself to respond in the right way. So while I can mentally acknowledge this I seem to be unable to learn from it. Relationships with spouses and children seem to be real emotional minefields for me. My wife's view of all this is that I am arrogant and lacking in empathy. When I need timeout my family view that as rejection by me of them, but that is never the intent. It is something I feel compelled to do so that I can regain my equiibrium. Just to illustrate, I had a really confronting discussion with my wife and while it upset me very much I did not (could not) process the emotional storm and for the next 2 days shutdown by working long hours until on the third day I was able to come home at a reasonable hour and start talking again. That led to another really challenging and confronting

discussion. So the cycle sometimes repeats itself. Just me and for what it is worth.Greg dx AS at 53

"Lori D. Cole" <LoriColecox (DOT) net> Sent by: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com 03/10/2008 02:21 AM

Please respond toaspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com

To

<aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) . com>

cc

Subject

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] meltdown

Usarian, My husband is on mood stabilizing medication, and his irritable reactions (door slamming is a favorite) have subsided. He wants to eliminate the medication due to side effects (memory loss and worse motor skills), insisting that he will be able to control himself now that he sees the bad effects (on him) of being reactive.. The doctor has suggested to taper down after a little more time. He does not remember his angrier times. This is expensive but these folks offer training for AS professionals who have reached a plateau in their career because of social issues. “The training you mentioned is individualized. Elsa Abele, a retired BU communications professor, meets with one person at a time to provide intensive training. You can find out more about it at http://www.aane. org/aane_ services/ consultation_ training. html “ Lori