Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

[Guest guest]

I agree wholeheartedly with Tim.

Who is taking the responsibility for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure system in the first place? We aren't being told. We know a lot of our AS friends are computer genuises. Tony Attwood aptly said, that computers were made by Aspergers, for Aspergers. So no surprise that he was able to concentrate his efforts on this particular enterprise.

I am appalled at the reaction of the press about this and the 'lets put him away in America for 60 years'. He is a British man and he should be given British justice - as far as we know at the present time, he isnt being paid by anyone, the information didnt go anywhere, and he was looking for glitches; call him stupid and smug, but dont call him knowing. The powers that be must be as embarrassed as hell.

The publicity of this case may certainly stop any other computer geeks from getting into the same mess, so something may have been achieved there.

Looking at the traits of the average Aspie, can anyone seriously think him capable of doing something like this maliciously? He has made some high heijuns look very silly, and he has now got the might of the US government on his back - sledgehammer to crack a nut? And everyone is going round in circles to try and get themselves out of the ownership of this problem - to whit, an ordinary Joe cracked our system.

I work for Government so dont think me naive - I know how the politicking works.

We could be taking a longer view on this; that he has committed a crime, but take into account the fact that a) Aspergers is still widely misunderstood within the criminal justice system and therefore he will be opening himself up to severe problems, especially in cross examination, and he is, and has shown himself to be capable of finding the methods needed to hack in, maybe just to amuse himself and prove his point; how willing is the justice system to believe this?

I hope that the outcome will be both fair, and at the same time, show that there is understanding about Aspergers as a driving force for his actions - he did it, but how and why did he do it?

Hoping I havent rattled too many cages

Judy B, Scotland

Subject: Re: Re: Article~Hacker hopes hit internet song will help to beat extradition rapTo: aspires-relationships Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 12:51 AM

at the ridiculous take on this case here,the gullibility.Let's set aside the hacker, the scapegoat.Do we have the names of the US government staff who's heads are rollingfor breaking US security law? That would be a little way to provingthere really was a breach. No names, the law was not broken.It is impossible to break in from a public place, that is the law. Thisis not the movies. Has to be proof against the full might of foreignpowers such as the Russian Federation, China, etc.I go further, there should be no access from a public place, this isbasic security stuff. By implication this security rule has been broken,except I doubt it.We have networks here in the UK where it is physically separate from allother systems, no outside connections and tamper proof by design.Without a doubt the US will be doing exactly the same, no connection, nobreach possible.I have

heard no mention about his breaking into anything secure, justabout low grade stuff of little interest. We have however no proof ofanything.I hope his court representatives crucify the US government but in anycase will be unfair and closed.This stuff gets worse... how many hackers have done the same or worsebut were out of reach of the US authorities. .. getting away scot free.Double standards, you bet, that is idiot western governments.American government are acting as a bully, choose a weak target and hit it.An apt response would be leave it to us.

[Guest guest]

I hate to disagree with you but in this one instance I take exception.

It is our endeavor as parents, to raise our children (AS, autistic, NT) to take responsibility for their actions. When AS becomes an excuse for bad behaviors than we are slipping down a dangerous slope. Unless AS made him blind to the fact his actions were wrong it should not be used as his defense for his actions.

I totally agree that politicians and government agencies have been made to look the fool by the "average joe". Having been around American politics for a large portion of my life, I can say from experience, it is a mess. Many innocents have been hung out to dry in the name of embarrassment and scandal. I do not feel this is the case here. This man admits his wrong behavior. He knew it was wrong but did it anyway. Is there a more clear case crying out for justice? The moment we make our condition a defense for knowingly wrong behavior we confirm the absurd beliefs of the majority that AS people are a menace and "mentally disabled". I do not choose to believe this of my husband or my child. AS is a difference in the way they think, communicate, and process stimulations. It does not make them incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

e, just my opinion

From: JUDY BARROW

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:13 AM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

I agree wholeheartedly with Tim.

Who is taking the responsibility for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure system in the first place? We aren't being told. We know a lot of our AS friends are computer genuises. Tony Attwood aptly said, that computers were made by Aspergers, for Aspergers. So no surprise that he was able to concentrate his efforts on this particular enterprise.

I am appalled at the reaction of the press about this and the 'lets put him away in America for 60 years'. He is a British man and he should be given British justice - as far as we know at the present time, he isnt being paid by anyone, the information didnt go anywhere, and he was looking for glitches; call him stupid and smug, but dont call him knowing. The powers that be must be as embarrassed as hell.

The publicity of this case may certainly stop any other computer geeks from getting into the same mess, so something may have been achieved there.

Looking at the traits of the average Aspie, can anyone seriously think him capable of doing something like this maliciously? He has made some high heijuns look very silly, and he has now got the might of the US government on his back - sledgehammer to crack a nut? And everyone is going round in circles to try and get themselves out of the ownership of this problem - to whit, an ordinary Joe cracked our system.

I work for Government so dont think me naive - I know how the politicking works.

We could be taking a longer view on this; that he has committed a crime, but take into account the fact that a) Aspergers is still widely misunderstood within the criminal justice system and therefore he will be opening himself up to severe problems, especially in cross examination, and he is, and has shown himself to be capable of finding the methods needed to hack in, maybe just to amuse himself and prove his point; how willing is the justice system to believe this?

I hope that the outcome will be both fair, and at the same time, show that there is understanding about Aspergers as a driving force for his actions - he did it, but how and why did he do it?

Hoping I havent rattled too many cages

Judy B, Scotland

Subject: Re: Re: Article~Hacker hopes hit internet song will help to beat extradition rapTo: aspires-relationships Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 12:51 AM

at the ridiculous take on this case here,the gullibility.Let's set aside the hacker, the scapegoat.Do we have the names of the US government staff who's heads are rollingfor breaking US security law? That would be a little way to provingthere really was a breach. No names, the law was not broken.It is impossible to break in from a public place, that is the law. Thisis not the movies. Has to be proof against the full might of foreignpowers such as the Russian Federation, China, etc.I go further, there should be no access from a public place, this isbasic security stuff. By implication this security rule has been broken,except I doubt it.We have networks here in the UK where it is physically separate from allother systems, no outside connections and tamper proof by design.Without a doubt the US will be doing exactly the same, no connection, nobreach possible.I have heard no mention about his breaking into anything secure, justabout low grade stuff of little interest. We have however no proof ofanything.I hope his court representatives crucify the US government but in anycase will be unfair and closed.This stuff gets worse... how many hackers have done the same or worsebut were out of reach of the US authorities. .. getting away scot free.Double standards, you bet, that is idiot western governments.American government are acting as a bully, choose a weak target and hit it.An apt response would be leave it to us.

[Guest guest]

someone said:

I hate to disagree with you but in this one instance I take exception.

It is our endeavor as parents, to raise our children (AS, autistic, NT) to take responsibility for their actions. When AS becomes an excuse for bad behaviors than we are slipping down a dangerous slope. Unless AS made him blind to the fact his actions were wrong it should not be used as his defense for his actions.

me here: presumably this is covered under mind blindness.

we can raise our children to take responsibility for their actions or to recognise when they cant.

you said:

I totally agree that politicians and government agencies have been made to look the fool by the "average joe". Having been around American politics for a large portion of my life, I can say from experience, it is a mess. Many innocents have been hung out to dry in the name of embarrassment and scandal. I do not feel this is the case here. This man admits his wrong behavior. He knew it was wrong but did it anyway. Is there a more clear case crying out for justice?

me here: presumably there are many.

what he did may not be arguable, but why he did it, now thats another question to be argued.

if his why was too cause malice and steal state secrets then he may be in trouble, but if his why can be explained or partly explained by AS then this must be heard as well.

you said:

The moment we make our condition a defense for knowingly wrong behavior we confirm the absurd beliefs of the majority that AS people are a menace and "mentally disabled".

me here: who has this belief?

you said:

I do not choose to believe this of my husband or my child. AS is a difference in the way they think, communicate, and process stimulations. It does not make them incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

e, just my opinion

me here: it is up to the courts now.....then come the solicitors, then come the rules.

what happens may not be as important as why it happens.

why it happens can be successfully argued if you throw in an AS defence.

in court, the facts dont matter..as much as .what you can convince a judge or jury to believe.

37 m diagnosed AS

From: JUDY BARROW

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:13 AM

To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com

Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

I agree wholeheartedly with Tim.

Who is taking the responsibility for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure system in the first place? We aren't being told. We know a lot of our AS friends are computer genuises. Tony Attwood aptly said, that computers were made by Aspergers, for Aspergers. So no surprise that he was able to concentrate his efforts on this particular enterprise.

I am appalled at the reaction of the press about this and the 'lets put him away in America for 60 years'. He is a British man and he should be given British justice - as far as we know at the present time, he isnt being paid by anyone, the information didnt go anywhere, and he was looking for glitches; call him stupid and smug, but dont call him knowing. The powers that be must be as embarrassed as hell.

The publicity of this case may certainly stop any other computer geeks from getting into the same mess, so something may have been achieved there.

Looking at the traits of the average Aspie, can anyone seriously think him capable of doing something like this maliciously? He has made some high heijuns look very silly, and he has now got the might of the US government on his back - sledgehammer to crack a nut? And everyone is going round in circles to try and get themselves out of the ownership of this problem - to whit, an ordinary Joe cracked our system.

I work for Government so dont think me naive - I know how the politicking works.

We could be taking a longer view on this; that he has committed a crime, but take into account the fact that a) Aspergers is still widely misunderstood within the criminal justice system and therefore he will be opening himself up to severe problems, especially in cross examination, and he is, and has shown himself to be capable of finding the methods needed to hack in, maybe just to amuse himself and prove his point; how willing is the justice system to believe this?

I hope that the outcome will be both fair, and at the same time, show that there is understanding about Aspergers as a driving force for his actions - he did it, but how and why did he do it?

Hoping I havent rattled too many cages

Judy B, Scotland

Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: Article~Hacker hopes hit internet song will help to beat extradition rapTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 12:51 AM

at the ridiculous take on this case here,the gullibility.Let's set aside the hacker, the scapegoat.Do we have the names of the US government staff who's heads are rollingfor breaking US security law? That would be a little way to provingthere really was a breach. No names, the law was not broken.It is impossible to break in from a public place, that is the law. Thisis not the movies. Has to be proof against the full might of foreignpowers such as the Russian Federation, China, etc.I go further, there should be no access from a public place, this isbasic security stuff. By implication this security rule has been broken,except I doubt it.We have networks here in the UK where it is physically separate from allother systems, no outside connections and tamper proof by design.Without a doubt the US will be doing exactly the same, no connection, nobreach possible.I have

heard no mention about his breaking into anything secure, justabout low grade stuff of little interest. We have however no proof ofanything.I hope his court representatives crucify the US government but in anycase will be unfair and closed.This stuff gets worse... how many hackers have done the same or worsebut were out of reach of the US authorities. .. getting away scot free.Double standards, you bet, that is idiot western governments.American government are acting as a bully, choose a weak target and hit it.An apt response would be leave it to us.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

you said: we can raise our children to take responsibility for their actions or

to recognise when they cant.

me: I agree that there are times when things are out of our control. When my

autistic son and AS son truly melt down they are completely gone and have no

memory of the events that occur during said time. When they are truly unaware

of their actions they are incapable of doing cognitive things such as hacking

into government computers. Not being sarcastic..seriously. This is how I know

when to hold them accountable for their actions or to let it go. My AS son is a

master at trying to manipulate situations to his benefit using AS as the excuse.

It does not fly here. At eight he is still learning that he is accountable for

his actions.

you said: what he did may not be arguable, but why he did it, now thats another

question to be argued.

me: I have seen many people, including myself on occasion, reason why they did

something wrong. Everyone has their own agenda. This is why we have laws, to

set definitive boundaries as to acceptable and unacceptable behavior in society.

you asked: who has this belief?

me: here in the US there are many with very backwards thinking toward any

medical condition that involves the brain. Just last week my mother in-law in

formed me that my children are not really on the spectrum...they are the way

they are because I did not give them enough attention. This is so absurd I

could not even be offended. My husband just had a conversation with a very well

educated man at work who asked " You have to think there is something very wrong

with someone who has AS "

There are people who have advocated fetal testing so that those on the spectrum

could be aborted before being born. We have had people say to us AS people are

more likely to go on school shooting rampages. Things may be different in the

rest of the world but here in the US of A we are still battling public

perceptions and misinformation even in our school systems.

you said: it is up to the courts now.

me: I completely agree. We have to hope that they will be able to walk the fine

line that even has our community divided and find true justice.

e, enjoying the debate

[Guest guest]



Whoa! This statement from Judy "Who is taking the responsibility for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure system in the first place?" gives me flash backs to dealing with my husbands parents. It is their opinion that pedophilia is the fault of the child and or the other parent.... Because they should have 'watched more carefully', done this or that or the next thing.

When wrong is committed it is NEVER the fault of the victim. Period. I don't care if the victim is a country, the richest man in the universe or a beggar off the street. I don't care what the wrong IS. You should not blame a victim for the wrong doing of another.

What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock my door so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault? Or is it only my fault if the person who steals is AS? What if the person who did wrong AND the victim are BOTH AS?? Then what?? I suppose then it's the fault of the spouse or partner who didn't make sure they had a door that self locks.... or something?? Isn't the whole computer system a constant battle of one up manship? Bad guy creates virus, good guy tops it with a virus fighter, back and forth. The government could have had a completely up to date system and if that guy is so blamed smart with computers he would have hacked in anyway.

Being AS does not do away with personal responsibility. I'm AS but I'm not STUPID. It's STUPID to do illegal things knowing full well what the consequences are. My nephew is more AS than I and he's only 11 and I'm willing to bet he would know the answer to the question of whether or not it would be a good idea to hack into any government's computers. My kids are about the same AS as me and they sure know. Shoot, My five year old would know. "Hey, M do you think it would be ok to dig around in someone's stuff and find the password for their computer and then get on their computer and mess around?" She said "Noooooah" and rolled her eyes at me.

Jennie AS irritated but realizing my irritation is stemming from a recent kablooey with crazy mother who tried to tell me that I am going to hell because I choose to protect my kids from inlaws who are protective of pedophiles and possibly some shade of child abusers themselves, so please don't take my annoyance personally. ....Oh wait that means I am fully aware of my annoyance and am choosing to hit send anyway, knowing that my already irate state has affected the way I wrote.... But heck I'm AS so that excuses me either which way. hmmmmm......................

[Guest guest]



P.S. I don't personally care WHO deals with this guy, I just don't believe he is 'innocent'. Your government, my goverment in my opinion that's not the point, the point is AS cannot and should not ever be allowed to get on the books in any country as an excuse for bad behavior because when that happens the lives of ALL AS people will be adversely affected. We then will become a 'protected' group of people. People already don't like us. What then when they find that we can do what we want and get off free because we are AS? Will they want to hire us for jobs? Will they want to marry us? Will they want to take our kids in their schools? Will they want anything to do with us? We are NOT victims just because we are AS. In my opinion this case is BAD for the AS community world wide if this guy is able to pull the AS card to excuse himself.

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

jennie, you do sound cross.

when someone says to you: we are gunna lock you up for 70 years.

you play whatever freacking card you got.

could you rationally say that you wouldnt?

37 m diagnosed AS.

[Guest guest]



I am cross. Because of my absurd mother. & %#**^%%!##!!!! See to top it off not only did she say I was likely going to hell she also tried to say I should feel guilty if my screwed up inlaws should suddenly die without me seeing them, even though inlaws are not dying and having asked to see me and don't want to see me. This from a woman who wouldn't visit her own daughter who really WAS dying and actually ASKED for my mom's presence. You bet I'm cross. None the less I chose to leave what I said, as I said it, because I believe it's true.

As to your question below... if I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet. I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place so ... I wouldn't play the card. But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second. Jennie AS

Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

jennie, you do sound cross.

when someone says to you: we are gunna lock you up for 70 years.

you play whatever freacking card you got.

could you rationally say that you wouldnt?

37 m diagnosed AS.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM

[Guest guest]

ok now your sounding irrational.

sorry your so cross.

37 m diagnosed AS

Subject: Re: Re: AS, hackers, computersTo: aspires-relationships Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 11:50 PM

 I am cross. Because of my absurd mother. & %#**^%%!##!! !! See to top it off not only did she say I was likely going to hell she also tried to say I should feel guilty if my screwed up inlaws should suddenly die without me seeing them, even though inlaws are not dying and having asked to see me and don't want to see me. This from a woman who wouldn't visit her own daughter who really WAS dying and actually ASKED for my mom's presence. You bet I'm cross. None the less I chose to leave what I said, as I said it, because I believe it's true.

As to your question below... if I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet. I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place so ... I wouldn't play the card. But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second. Jennie AS

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

jennie, you do sound cross.

when someone says to you: we are gunna lock you up for 70 years.

you play whatever freacking card you got.

could you rationally say that you wouldnt?

37 m diagnosed AS.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM

[Guest guest]

Jennie Unknown wrote:

> What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock my door

> so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault?

Insurance claim rejected.

I have posted what might seem strong content but done to show that the

world is not black and white, rules are flexible and the whole thing is

rarely simple.

[Guest guest]

>Jennie Unknown wrote:

> > What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock my door

> > so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault?

>

>Tim replied:

>Insurance claim rejected.

Maybe so, maybe not, depends on the insurer. But that was not the

question. The question is who is in the wrong. The courts will still

find the thief " guilty " because forgetting to lock the door does not

entitle someone else to trespass and remove property.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Jennie and all,

I’m not at all confident about this discussion.    Sure, I too

am very much hooked into obeying laws and fulfilling the rules of behavior.

But there is still a bit of a grey area here.    Governments,

even of our own proud societies have been known to do wrong and immoral

things.    And they almost inevitably have a series of rules and guidelines

that forbid people to disclose such wrongdoing, folks known in our country as ‘Whistleblowers’.  

There is surely an obligation on persons of conscientiousness and morality to

uncover and to disclose such evils.      Then probably we all know about corporate

bodies and businesses that proscribe all sorts of penalties for persons in

their employ who reveal any sort of secret facts about their doings, however

wrong or immoral.  

Ghandi didn’t obey the rules, - neither did Mandela, or

others.    They sure suffered for their courage and their steadfastness.    I

think of protesters who have broken  into factories and facilities in order to

expose evils that were being covered up by the bosses.     Union men who

suffered fines, gaol and persecution and even assassination in order to expose

abuses and to bring about reforms that we all enjoy nowadays.   Recall the song

... “Ballad of Joe Hill’, a true and tragic story of courage and sincerity.    We

think too of persons of the Christian (or Islamic, or Judaic or Buddhist) faith

who illegally maintain their religious practices in countries where it is

against the law.   Are we going to say that they shouldn’t?  

I’ve heard too of Hackers who by breaking into secret computer

systems, have drawn attention to things that were being hidden.    Oh yes,

these people have suffered for their courage and their enterprise in so  many

cases.    They are inevitably well acquainted with the reprisals and sanctions

that would follow their actions.   

Now I’m not suggesting that our contemporary AS hacker is acting

on the best of motives.   I just don’t know.   And for all we know, maybe he

uncovered certain things that were being illegitimately covered up.     Maybe his

admittedly illegal actions have now brought about some rethinking on behalf of

the authorities that they needed to do.   Maybe they will have recognized now

some discrepancies and weaknesses in their systems that they didn’t see before.

I’ve even heard of some brilliant Hackers who after exposure for

their illegal entries, were bought off and given high salaried positions in the

organizations that they got into.   If this bloke is just so clever, then the

authorities might do best to direct him into some job wherein his talents can

be used for good and profit.

My guess is that the AS hacker did what he did,  simply because

he could.     A bit like the man who climbs the highest mountain.  He does it

simply because it is there.   He would have to have been aware of the

consequences if it goes wrong, or if he’s caught.    But in the meantime, he is

probably feeling a great sense of satisfaction at having done what he set out

to do.

Ron.   

Subject: Re:

Re: AS, hackers, computers

Whoa! This statement from Judy " Who is taking the responsibility

for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure

system in the first place? " gives me flash backs to dealing with my

husbands parents. It is their opinion that pedophilia is the fault of the child

and or the other parent.... Because they should have 'watched more carefully',

done this or that or the next thing.

When wrong is committed it is NEVER the fault of

the victim. Period. I don't care if the victim is a country, the richest

man in the universe or a beggar off the street. I don't care what the wrong IS.

You should not blame a victim for the wrong doing of another.

What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock

my door so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault? Or is

it only my fault if the person who steals is AS? What if the person who did

wrong AND the victim are BOTH AS?? Then what?? I suppose then it's the

fault of the spouse or partner who didn't make sure they had a door that self

locks.... or something?? Isn't the whole computer system a constant battle

of one up manship? Bad guy creates virus, good guy tops it with a virus

fighter, back and forth. The government could have had a completely up to date

system and if that guy is so blamed smart with computers he would have hacked

in anyway.

Being AS does not do away with personal

responsibility. I'm AS but I'm not STUPID. It's STUPID to do illegal

things knowing full well what the consequences are. My nephew is more AS

than I and he's only 11 and I'm willing to bet he would know the answer to the

question of whether or not it would be a good idea to hack

into any government's computers. My kids are about the same AS

as me and they sure know. Shoot, My five year old would know. " Hey, M do you

think it would be ok to dig around in someone's stuff and find the password for

their computer and then get on their computer and mess around? " She said

" Noooooah " and rolled her eyes at me.

Jennie AS irritated but realizing my irritation is stemming

from a recent kablooey with crazy mother who tried to tell me that

I am going to hell because I choose to protect my kids from inlaws

who are protective of pedophiles and possibly some shade of child

abusers themselves, so please don't take my annoyance personally.

.....Oh wait that means I am fully aware of my annoyance and am choosing to hit

send anyway, knowing that my already irate state has affected the way I

wrote.... But heck I'm AS so that excuses me either which way. hmmmmm......................

[Guest guest]



Which piece exactly.

Jennie- AS and curious

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

jennie, you do sound cross.

when someone says to you: we are gunna lock you up for 70 years.

you play whatever freacking card you got.

could you rationally say that you wouldnt?

37 m diagnosed AS.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM

[Guest guest]



Financial rules laid out by lawyers hired by insurance agencies are a whole nother story from just flat out it's not ok to trespass on other people's stuff whether that be a computer or a house or a body. Improving the lock doesn't stop someone from breaking in. Taking away all shoes does not teach the dog to not chew on them. The minute the shoe is there the dog chews again. Just making more and more and more rules, locks, etc. does not deter bad behavior, crime, annoying behavior, etc. Making a better and better encryption system on a computer does not stop people from trying to hack in, it in fact increases the people trying for the simple reason that it is a challenge. That is more or less what this guy said. He wanted to look for glitches. My computer guy tells me that Nortons is one of the most attacked computer virus systems out there because it is toward the top. He suggests using a variety of free systems combined because most hackers don't bother with those systems, they aren't worth their time. The point is the best security system in the world wouldn't make a rats butt of difference, this guy picked a challenging computer system for the express purpose of finding glitches. He didn't go looking for an easy target like the local library. Probably he'd already done that.

Case in point, my parents (fruity as they are, had this right) never locked up anything from us kids. We were taught certain things are not allowed. Period. Therefore we did not do them. None of us kids (6 of us) ever got into trouble with the law, with the school, with neighbors, relatives, jobs,... you get the point. Not one of us has gotten into any trouble ever. We were taught to respect others things and to respect others space. None of us ever did anything like accidently shoot ourselves or someone else, I don't think any of us even got speeding tickets while growing up for the simple reason that we knew if we got a ticket we would have to pay it. None of us were ever beaten, starved or abused in order to teach this. It was explained. I have done the same with my kids. I explain, I show, I demonstrate, they get the point. That's why my five year old knows that it's not ok to bust into someone's computer. See she places Webkinz. She's had people hack into her account and take her stuff off her program. She doesn't like that, she knows instinctively it is not ok because she doesn't like it when it's done to her. It's all very simple really and far more black and white than today's society likes to admit.

Jennie AS

Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

Jennie Unknown wrote:> What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock my door> so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault? Insurance claim rejected.I have posted what might seem strong content but done to show that theworld is not black and white, rules are flexible and the whole thing israrely simple.

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[Guest guest]



Just a short reply as I've got stuff I have to take care of but... You make some good points. I would say there is a difference between rules that someone created to save their own butts in case of emergency and the basic raw values that we all know in our gut is right.

Messing with someone else's stuff is one of those basic rules. I bet this guy would get pretty mad if someone hacked into HIS computer and mucked around. Even if they didn't steal anything and didn't ruin his computer but just messed around with it... I'm guessing he like anyone would be ticked off.

Jennie AS

Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

Whoa! This statement from Judy "Who is taking the responsibility for the fact that he was he able to get into a supposedly secure system in the first place?" gives me flash backs to dealing with my husbands parents. It is their opinion that pedophilia is the fault of the child and or the other parent.... Because they should have 'watched more carefully', done this or that or the next thing.

When wrong is committed it is NEVER the fault of the victim. Period. I don't care if the victim is a country, the richest man in the universe or a beggar off the street. I don't care what the wrong IS. You should not blame a victim for the wrong doing of another.

What does it mean anyway?? If I walk out and forget to lock my door so someone walks in and steals my stuff... it is then my fault? Or is it only my fault if the person who steals is AS? What if the person who did wrong AND the victim are BOTH AS?? Then what?? I suppose then it's the fault of the spouse or partner who didn't make sure they had a door that self locks.... or something?? Isn't the whole computer system a constant battle of one up manship? Bad guy creates virus, good guy tops it with a virus fighter, back and forth. The government could have had a completely up to date system and if that guy is so blamed smart with computers he would have hacked in anyway.

Being AS does not do away with personal responsibility. I'm AS but I'm not STUPID. It's STUPID to do illegal things knowing full well what the consequences are. My nephew is more AS than I and he's only 11 and I'm willing to bet he would know the answer to the question of whether or not it would be a good idea to hack into any government's computers. My kids are about the same AS as me and they sure know. Shoot, My five year old would know. "Hey, M do you think it would be ok to dig around in someone's stuff and find the password for their computer and then get on their computer and mess around?" She said "Noooooah" and rolled her eyes at me.

Jennie AS irritated but realizing my irritation is stemming from a recent kablooey with crazy mother who tried to tell me that I am going to hell because I choose to protect my kids from inlaws who are protective of pedophiles and possibly some shade of child abusers themselves, so please don't take my annoyance personally. ....Oh wait that means I am fully aware of my annoyance and am choosing to hit send anyway, knowing that my already irate state has affected the way I wrote.... But heck I'm AS so that excuses me either which way. hmmmmm......................

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[Guest guest]

jennie, i meant irrational in the definition of irrational, not the insulting form of the word.

for example you said:

As to your question below... if I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet. I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place so ... I wouldn't play the card. But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course

includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second. Jennie AS

me here:

you started by saying you would play the card, regardless of the effect that had on others.

then you said you wouldnt do it anyway so no need to pkay the card.

then you said, if it did happen you still wouldnt play the card.

it was clear to me from your writing and admission that you were "unsettled"

there is a good article on emotional regulation and control by Inge Schweiger Gallo

and a good article of emotional regulation by Gross.

there is a good description on emotional control and implementation intentions in the first journal article. if "x" happens i will perform "y" response.

rather than goal intentions....which can be harder to achieve.. e.g..i will avoid the mother in law.

they have demonstrated how students can curtail their fear of spiders.

try: Gross. J.J (1998a) Antecedent and response focused emotion regulation.

Journal of personality and Social Psychology 74. 224-237

s, J.M`and Gross,J.J (2000) Emotion regulation and memory: The cognitive costs of keepong ones cool. Journal of personality and Social Psychology 79. 410-424

I am AS too and i have found these articles helpfull.

a lot of the stuff i dont posses intuitively but i can get it intellectually and adapt.

37 m diagnosed AS

From: Jennie Unknown <mossbtweenmetoes@ tds.net>Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computersTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 11:50 PM

 I am cross. Because of my absurd mother. & %#**^%%!##!! !! See to top it off not only did she say I was likely going to hell she also tried to say I should feel guilty if my screwed up inlaws should suddenly die without me seeing them, even though inlaws are not dying and having asked to see me and don't want to see me. This from a woman who wouldn't visit her own daughter who really WAS dying and actually ASKED for my mom's presence. You bet I'm cross. None the less I chose to leave what I said, as I said it, because I believe it's true.

As to your question below... if I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet. I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place so ... I wouldn't play the card. But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second. Jennie AS

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

jennie, you do sound cross.

when someone says to you: we are gunna lock you up for 70 years.

you play whatever freacking card you got.

could you rationally say that you wouldnt?

37 m diagnosed AS.

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[Guest guest]



you misunderstand what I said. BTW I knew you weren't meaning to be insulting. I said:

"As to your question below... IF I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet."

(The kind of person who does an illegal thing for no purpose is the kind of person who plays the card regardless of consequences to other people.)

"I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place"

(I am NOT that kind of person.)

"so ... I wouldn't play the card."

"But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second."

(If I were unjustly accused of something and faced jail time I would sacrifice myself before I would play the AS card.)

I'm not unsettled at all.

Hope this clarifies for you

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Sorry for sticking my nose in but isn't taking what people say literally and often misunderstanding peoples intensions a trait of Aspergers? please, please don't anyone take any offence at this, but this 'fact' is one i have learnt from well respected psychologists, books written by people with AS and my personal experience with my family.

I fully understood what you meant , but my hubby was confused and i had to re phrase your point for him to 'get it'.

When said he thought you were unsettled i thought to myself ' uh oh here comes trouble' purely for the fact that it is common for ANYONE on the spectrum to misunderstand.

This subject has been a very healthy one in my view, we are all entitled to our opinion and a lot of us have viewed that opinion on here, one of the reasons i like this group and have respect for you all.

I asked my son Adam 13 AS if he knew what hacking was and he said "yes but it's illegal", i then asked if he would ever try it he said "no way, i don't want to go to prison" everything you do in life is a choice, you either choose to break the law or choose to abide by it. Adam has used the 'i'm Autistic' card himself, i don't let him get away with that and he will apologise and admit he has done wrong because he made a bad choice.

My younger sister has Downs Syndrome, she is 44 but has the neurological age of a 5 year old, she too knows right from wrong, she 'chooses' not to use foul language and will 'have a go' at people who do use it, now no one has taught her this right from wrong so i think she has picked up on the negative reactions of others who do feel it is wrong to swear and curse for herself. She has also recently been diagnosed with dementia and she still makes the 'right' choices.

Just food for thought!!!

Elaine

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008 17:34:54Subject: Re: Re: AS, hackers, computers

 you misunderstand what I said. BTW I knew you weren't meaning to be insulting. I said:

"As to your question below... IF I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet."

(The kind of person who does an illegal thing for no purpose is the kind of person who plays the card regardless of consequences to other people.)

"I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place"

(I am NOT that kind of person.)

"so ... I wouldn't play the card."

"But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second."

(If I were unjustly accused of something and faced jail time I would sacrifice myself before I would play the AS card.)

I'm not unsettled at all.

Hope this clarifies for you

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]



Elaine and ,

Well this is really interesting to me because I have often been confused by interactions with NT where they think I am upset with them. So do you know what about my words made it look like we were having a go or is it something you just sense or is it just because there is a conflict? Also I'd be interested to hear 's side of it. did you think we were 'having a go' or did you view it as a factual exchange of thoughts?

Anyway, no need to apologize you didn't offend me. :-) You have just as much right as anyone to say your opinion.

Jennie AS

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

 you misunderstand what I said. BTW I knew you weren't meaning to be insulting. I said:

"As to your question below... IF I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet."

(The kind of person who does an illegal thing for no purpose is the kind of person who plays the card regardless of consequences to other people.)

"I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place"

(I am NOT that kind of person.)

"so ... I wouldn't play the card."

"But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second."

(If I were unjustly accused of something and faced jail time I would sacrifice myself before I would play the AS card.)

I'm not unsettled at all.

Hope this clarifies for you

Jennie AS

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[Guest guest]

yes factual exchange of thoughts was my understanding of it.

the fact that there were references invovled in emotional self regulation would underline this point of view.

very factual exchange.

i didnt think there was a having a go at each other at all .

there was input from another list member who had decided it was not a factual exchange and this may have caused the confusion. however, that members views were successfully ignored by all.

37 m diagnosed AS

37 m diagnosed AS

Subject: Re: Re: AS, hackers, computersTo: aspires-relationships Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 1:11 AM

 Elaine and ,

Well this is really interesting to me because I have often been confused by interactions with NT where they think I am upset with them. So do you know what about my words made it look like we were having a go or is it something you just sense or is it just because there is a conflict? Also I'd be interested to hear 's side of it. did you think we were 'having a go' or did you view it as a factual exchange of thoughts?

Anyway, no need to apologize you didn't offend me. :-) You have just as much right as anyone to say your opinion.

Jennie AS

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Re: AS, hackers, computers

 you misunderstand what I said. BTW I knew you weren't meaning to be insulting. I said:

"As to your question below... IF I did something that meant I'd get locked up for 70 yrs then yes I'd be the sort of person who'd play that card regardless of what kind of effect that had on others like me across the planet."

(The kind of person who does an illegal thing for no purpose is the kind of person who plays the card regardless of consequences to other people.)

"I actually wouldn't choose to do that in the first place"

(I am NOT that kind of person.)

"so ... I wouldn't play the card."

"But even on the outside chance that I got unjustly accused for something I didn't do or didn't believe I was guilty of, then I still wouldn't play the card because I very much believe it would be harmful to others with AS and that of course includes my kids and my nephew. I would think of them first, me second."

(If I were unjustly accused of something and faced jail time I would sacrifice myself before I would play the AS card.)

I'm not unsettled at all.

Hope this clarifies for you

Jennie AS

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 8:59 AM

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