Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that psychotropic medications are often implicated, especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen stims sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD kids who are not on medications, with the movement going away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM --- john leon wrote: > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in > our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD > or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Dr McCandless, The only medication our 5 yr old has been on is Colazal (1 pill per day). Other than that, he gets the occasional Rx antifungal. He has had this movements for a few yrs, but this Summer it seems to have gotten worse for some reason. L Re: choreoform movements Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that psychotropic medications are often implicated, especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen stims sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD kids who are not on medications, with the movement going away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in > our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD > or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 That side effect has not been reported from Colazal. Though as I said the cause is usually unknown, diseases such as Parkinson's that have choreoform movements are disorders of the dopamine system, and LDN is showing amazing benefit in such disorders. Do you have him on LDN? Dr. JM --- john leon wrote: > Dr McCandless, > > The only medication our 5 yr old has been on is > Colazal (1 pill per day). > Other than that, he gets the occasional Rx > antifungal. He has had this > movements for a few yrs, but this Summer it seems to > have gotten worse for > some reason. L > > > > Re: choreoform movements > > > > Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that > psychotropic medications are often implicated, > especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen stims > sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD > kids > who are not on medications, with the movement going > away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you > giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM > > --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) > <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in > > our younger son and do > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD > > or not related? Has > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > > with any kind of > > treatments? > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Have you tested for strep in the throat and gut? My son's neurologist told me (this was years ago) that these movements made him suspect my son had PANDAS. His OCD went away when we treated his strep. > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Dr McCandless, Yes we have had him on LDN for a few years now. I wonder if this is something that will get better with chelating. L Re: choreoform movements > > > > Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that > psychotropic medications are often implicated, > especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen stims > sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD > kids > who are not on medications, with the movement going > away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you > giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM > > --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) > <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in > > our younger son and do > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD > > or not related? Has > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > > with any kind of > > treatments? > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 , We suspected this a few years ago, but all his blood and throat strep tests have been negative. The only strep he has had is Gamma Strep on his CDSA and most docs believe this is not an issue since it is referred to as non-pathonogenic. These choreoform movements do not look like OCD to me although they may somehow be related. L Re: choreoform movements Have you tested for strep in the throat and gut? My son's neurologist told me (this was years ago) that these movements made him suspect my son had PANDAS. His OCD went away when we treated his strep. > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 We treated the gamma strep and saw improvement. Might be worth a try since you are seeing symptoms. > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > and do > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > treatments? > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 .. could you describe these movements? Have you done any testing of thyroid or amino acid function in all your work to figure this out? Not say it is related but just wondering if those tests showed as normal. Thanks! > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 EVERYTHING gets better with chelating. What does his porphyrin test show? Dr. JM --- john leon wrote: > Dr McCandless, > > Yes we have had him on LDN for a few years now. I > wonder if this is > something that will get better with chelating. > L > > > Re: choreoform movements > > > > > > > > Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that > > psychotropic medications are often implicated, > > especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen > stims > > sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD > > kids > > who are not on medications, with the movement > going > > away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you > > giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM > > > > --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) > > <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements > in > > > our younger son and do > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of > OCD > > > or not related? Has > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > > > with any kind of > > > treatments? > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 , What did you treat Gamma Strep with? L Re: choreoform movements We treated the gamma strep and saw improvement. Might be worth a try since you are seeing symptoms. > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > and do > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > treatments? > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 , The movements are kind of robotic in nature. Every hour or so throughout the day all is fine and then he stops and starts doing these robotic movements. Really odd. His typical thyroid tests (TSH and T4) as well as all CBC and RBC have always come back fairly normal. His last urine AA test showed high ammonia (treating with lactulose now) and several low AA. Yasko summary showed ACE to be biggest issue followed by MTHFR A1298C. Since the movements have spiked the last month, I am thinking it could be an oxalate detox (we have been treating this for a few months) or the ammonia detox that we have been treating. Or it could be something else. Like I said, he has had them for a few yrs, but they have spiked recently. Thanks for any thoughts you may have, L Re: choreoform movements .. could you describe these movements? Have you done any testing of thyroid or amino acid function in all your work to figure this out? Not say it is related but just wondering if those tests showed as normal. Thanks! > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son and do > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > treatments? > > Thanks, L > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Dr McCandless, Precopro was 11.1 (range 2-5) Copro was 122 (range 50-90) Together these indicate high mercury toxic effect Neopterine was 132 (range 110-190) shows avg immune activation But, Biopterine/Neopterine ratio was 0.5 (range > 2.0) decreased ratio shows increased oxidative damage 8OHdG and 8 OG both in range indicating avg DNA and RNA oxidative damage respectively Right now we are just rotating a DMPS suppository on one weekend and an EDTA supp the next weekend. Maybe we should get a little more aggressive with one mid-week to keep the heavy metals moving out? My searches on choreiform movements showed that Choreiform movements (Chorea) can be caused by mercury poisoning. So, it may be possible that mobilizing mercury with chelation could temporarily make choriform movements worse. If this is true, then chelating more often could help. L Re: choreoform movements > > > > > > > > Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that > > psychotropic medications are often implicated, > > especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen > stims > > sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in ASD > > kids > > who are not on medications, with the movement > going > > away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you > > giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM > > > > --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) > > <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements > in > > > our younger son and do > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of > OCD > > > or not related? Has > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements > > > with any kind of > > > treatments? > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 I presume you mean DMPS for three nights in a row at bedtime every other week-end, and the EDTA two nights (with no snacks after an early dinner) running on the next week-end? --- john leon wrote: > Dr McCandless, > > Precopro was 11.1 (range 2-5) > Copro was 122 (range 50-90) > Together these indicate high mercury toxic effect > Neopterine was 132 (range 110-190) shows avg immune > activation > But, Biopterine/Neopterine ratio was 0.5 (range > > 2.0) decreased ratio shows > increased oxidative damage > 8OHdG and 8 OG both in range indicating avg DNA and > RNA oxidative damage > respectively > > Right now we are just rotating a DMPS suppository on > one weekend and an EDTA > supp the next weekend. Maybe we should get a little > more aggressive with one > mid-week to keep the heavy metals moving out? My > searches on choreiform > movements showed that Choreiform movements (Chorea) > can be caused by mercury > poisoning. So, it may be possible that mobilizing > mercury with chelation > could temporarily make choriform movements worse. If > this is true, then > chelating more often could help. > > L > > > Re: choreoform > movements > > > > > > > > > > > > Causes of these are mostly unknown, except that > > > psychotropic medications are often implicated, > > > especially anti-psychotics. Also, I have seen > > stims > > > sometimes have a choreoform aspect to them in > ASD > > > kids > > > who are not on medications, with the movement > > going > > > away as the stim changes or disappears. Are you > > > giving him any kinds of medication? Dr. JM > > > > > > --- john leon <jjleon1comcast (DOT) > > > <mailto:jjleon1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: > > > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform > movements > > in > > > > our younger son and do > > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of > > OCD > > > > or not related? Has > > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform > movements > > > > with any kind of > > > > treatments? > > > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 amoxicillin > > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > > and do > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > > treatments? > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 and , I saw an article that relates the Choreoathetoid-type movement disorder to the GABA pathway. Thanks, Bo http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1742-6723.2005.00735.x?cooki\ eSet=1 " Choreoathetoid-type movement disorders are hyperkinetic in character and associated with excessive abnormal involuntary activity. Parkinsonism is the opposite of this and is characterized by a decrease in normally occurring involuntary movements.1 Huntington's disease is the prototype of choreoathetoid movement disorders but a number of drugs have been reported to induce similar states. The pathogenesis stems from the complex interaction of dopaminergic and cholinergic neurones on the corpus striatum in which the former inhibits, and the latter excites a gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) pathway,1 which itself subsequently exerts an inhibitory state on the thalamus. In Huntington's disease the loss of cholinergic neurones appears to be the main pathological entity. In contrast, dopaminergic excess is the proposed mechanism in drug-induced choreoathetoid disorders. " > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > and do > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > treatments? > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 OK Bo.. thanks so much! I have to admit this is one abstract that is " losing me " . If you or anyone else can help me be sure I am understanding it, I'd appreciate it so much. My son does TERRIBLE on GABA. Could you interpret this in lay terms for the technically challenged like me! Thanks! > > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > > and do > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > > treatments? > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 , In my searches, I also made a note about low GABA being an issue, but our son also did not do well on GABA. One thought that crossed my mind was to possibly try the Riluzole which is supposed to lower Glutamate. This could balance the GABA/Glutamate ratio and might be a way to help GABA without giving it directly. I am hearing that several kids are on this to lower the excitatory issues with high Glutamate levels, but I have not heard any clinical results. Has anyone had luck with Riluzole (or is it Rilutek)? L Re: choreoform movements OK Bo.. thanks so much! I have to admit this is one abstract that is " losing me " . If you or anyone else can help me be sure I am understanding it, I'd appreciate it so much. My son does TERRIBLE on GABA. Could you interpret this in lay terms for the technically challenged like me! Thanks! > > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger son > > and do > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not related? Has > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind of > > > treatments? > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 My daughter takes Amantadine and it has made a great difference - it is a suppresor of glutamate. > > , > > In my searches, I also made a note about low GABA being an issue, but our > son also did not do well on GABA. One thought that crossed my mind was to > possibly try the Riluzole which is supposed to lower Glutamate. This could > balance the GABA/Glutamate ratio and might be a way to help GABA without > giving it directly. I am hearing that several kids are on this to lower > the > excitatory issues with high Glutamate levels, but I have not heard any > clinical results. > > Has anyone had luck with Riluzole (or is it Rilutek)? > > L > > > Re: choreoform movements > > > > OK Bo.. thanks so much! I have to admit this is one abstract that > is " losing me " . If you or anyone else can help me be sure I am > understanding it, I'd appreciate it so much. My son does TERRIBLE on > GABA. Could you interpret this in lay terms for the technically > challenged like me! > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > We have seen an increase inchoreoform movements in our younger > son > > > and do > > > > not know why. Are choreoform movements part of OCD or not > related? Has > > > > anyone successfully reduced choreoform movements with any kind > of > > > > treatments? > > > > > > > > Thanks, L > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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