Re: Query on Inlv list....

[Guest guest]

I was on Inlv briefly in 2001 and left voluntarily. It stands for

" Independent Living " and is purportedly for spectrumites interested in that

life option. I and many others found it ironic that such a list was set up

by a person who apparently lives on public assistance and with his family's

help. Nothing wrong with that, but I would have more faith in a driving

school run by Ray than an " independent living " list run by such a

person. I do not cite the listowner's name because he has already gotten

more attention than he merits.

He came over to the USA a couple of years ago and was publicly

" busted " at several venues for the apparent contradiction between his

personal life-style and the subject of his list.

Another thing I found disturbing about the Inlv list was that the

list-owner allows it to be a lurking site for an infamous person, aka " Dean

/Dinand. " This person has used various lists to harass many people

without cause. His personal e-mail address was still part of the " InLV " site

when I last visited it three years ago. This person is definitely not ready

for prime time and is dangerous.

To me, Inlv is just another garden variety Internut site, not to be

taken seriously. comparison I much prefer 's list because the people

are friendlier and doesn't misrepresent himself.

Jerry Newport

_________________________________________________________________

Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage.

http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Jerry wrote:

>...I and many others found it ironic that such a list was set up

>by a person who apparently lives on public assistance and with his family's

>help. Nothing wrong with that, but I would have more faith in a driving

>school run by Ray than an " independent living " list run by such a

>person.

Almost nobody lives " independently. " Jypsy lived more independently

than most when she was out in the woods. But most of us live very

dependently. I did not lay the sidewalks where I walk. I do not

grow my own food. I do not make my own money; it is given to me

by an institution. My mother got money from Social Security for

many years -- and it wasn't from her own work history. She also

got suport from Medicare. Yet she was considered to be living

independently, as a " head of household, " no less. Company

executives are dependent on the work of hundreds or thousands

of poorly paid workers, and yet the CEOs are seen as icons of

independence. Some of them hire people to do everything for them

-- to prepare their food, to direct their physical activity/exerise,

to clean their clothes, to care for their children. Yet they are

" independent. " If I had that much support, I'd be seen as

" dependent on aides for activitied of daily living. "

Moreover, InLv is for both those are living " independently " as

defined by whatever culture they live in (I think the standards

are different in Scandinavia than in the U.S., for example) and

for who want to increase the degree of their independence. For

example, someone who lives in a group home and is looking

towards the time when s/he can live in an apartment on his/her

own.

Every single one of the topics in Lee's list on AutAdvo is

discussed on InLv, often in very practical terms as autistics

try to help one another (by sharing experiences and information)

increase levels of functional independence.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> I was on Inlv briefly in 2001 and left voluntarily. It stands for

> " Independent Living " and is purportedly for spectrumites interested

> in that life option. I and many others found it ironic that such a

> list was set up by a person who apparently lives on public

> assistance and with his family's help. Nothing wrong with that, but

> I would have more faith in a driving school run by Ray than

> an " independent living " list run by such a person. I do not cite the

> listowner's name because he has already gotten more attention than

> he merits.

Independent living has more to do with controlling your own life than

who contributes to assisting you with it in what way. Unless you

taught yourself all of your living skills in a vacuum, and found in

that vacuum a way to grow your own food and the material for the

fabric for your clothes, prepare the food, make cotton or whatever it

is into fabric so that you wear clothes, reinvent the English language

on your own so that you can talk to us in it, build your own computer

to talk to us on, build all of the wires that connect it to ours (and

get the raw materials for that wire on your own, through that

mysteriously-acquired knowledge you have), then you have nothing to

stand on when you try to tell anyone that they're dependent and you're

not.

There are some cultures in which it is normal for many generations of

a family to live together. It would be considered " independent

living " for a person in one of those cultures to live with their

family, as much as it is for any other person. Whether you receive

your money directly (as Martijn does) or indirectly (as you do) from

the government shouldn't make much difference either. The list is

about people doing things for themselves in their lives, whatever

they're doing.

Or as Cal (whom I believe you know) has more eloquently put it:

" I am a dependent person. I eat food whose final preparation I handle

myself, but which has come to me across roads laid and maintained by

other people from stores staffed by other people -- and even those

people didn't grow or raise or harvest or slaughter any of it. I wear

clothes made by other people from cloth woven by still others. I am

human: I depend on others. And this is called independence.

" I am a dependent person. I need human contact, most of which I

receive through an Internet built and maintained by many other people.

I do not know my neighbors, but even face-to-face interaction requires

someone's cooperation. I have learned from my time in isolation rooms

that I can handle a while without human interaction, but that

eventually it will become unbearable. I am human: I depend on others.

And this is called independence.

" I am a dependent person. The words I work with were taught to me by

people who wrote and read them before I traced my first A. The

language I work in is a living entity, shaped and grown over centuries

by billions upon billions of speakers. The ideas I work on are part of

a tradition nurtured by many thinkers. I am human: I depend on others.

And this is called independence.

" I am a dependent person. I do not -- have learned that I cannot

safely -- live alone. I require the patterns of life to be modeled for

me over and over again. I struggle to get, and to keep, jobs in

workplaces designed for " plug-and-play " workers. I learn some things

quickly and easily; I need to be explicitly taught many things that

seem obvious to others. I am human: I depend on others. And *this* is

called dependence.

" Independent can mean self-governing. It can also mean self-reliant.

It can deny others' influence on our decisions or others' support in

carrying those decisions out.

" Dependent can mean controlled by others. It can also mean requiring

the support of others.

" None of us, of course, is independent in either sense. We grow up in

social contexts, supported and denied, enabled and disabled by those

around us.

" But some rely on supports which are so common as to go unnoticed,

while others use support that is atypical and therefore apparent. Some

supports are provided by the community as a whole and go unnoticed,

while others are borne -- or not -- by a small number of people whose

lives are profoundly affected.

" So I know the ways in which I am dependent not by looking at how I

depend on others, but by watching other people. I look to nondisabled

people to tell me which kinds of dependence are recognized, which are

devalued. I know the shame that comes with asking for " inappropriate "

help.

" Within the disability community, too, there are fault lines around

which kinds of dependence we recognize, which kinds we devalue. "

http://www.ragged-edge-mag.com/0501/0501cov.htm

> He came over to the USA a couple of years ago and was publicly

> " busted " at several venues for the apparent contradiction between

> his personal life-style and the subject of his list.

Sounds like whoever " busted " him has no understanding of either his

personal life-style *or* the meaning of the title of his list. Which

would be rather typical, unfortunately.

> Another thing I found disturbing about the Inlv list was that the

> list-owner allows it to be a lurking site for an infamous person,

> aka " Dean /Dinand. " This person has used various lists to

> harass many people without cause. His personal e-mail address was

> still part of the " InLV " site when I last visited it three years

> ago. This person is definitely not ready for prime time and is

> dangerous.

That's the only valid objection to the list you've raised in the

entire post.

> To me, Inlv is just another garden variety Internut site, not to be

> taken seriously. comparison I much prefer 's list because the

> people are friendlier and doesn't misrepresent himself.

Martijn doesn't misrepresent himself with the title of his list.

Rather, you misunderstand him.

And I say this with no particular attachment to the list or the person

running it. You just come off as really clueless on this kind of

subject.

[Guest guest]

Who is Dean and how is he dangerous? I like the InLv list

although I don't have the time to read all the posts.

CZ

alfamanda wrote:

>

>

>>I was on Inlv briefly in 2001 and left voluntarily. It stands for

>> " Independent Living " and is purportedly for spectrumites interested

>>in that life option. I and many others found it ironic that such a

>>list was set up by a person who apparently lives on public

>>assistance and with his family's help. Nothing wrong with that, but

>>I would have more faith in a driving school run by Ray than

>>an " independent living " list run by such a person. I do not cite the

>>listowner's name because he has already gotten more attention than

>>he merits.

>

>

> Independent living has more to do with controlling your own life than

> who contributes to assisting you with it in what way. Unless you

> taught yourself all of your living skills in a vacuum, and found in

> that vacuum a way to grow your own food and the material for the

> fabric for your clothes, prepare the food, make cotton or whatever it

> is into fabric so that you wear clothes, reinvent the English language

> on your own so that you can talk to us in it, build your own computer

> to talk to us on, build all of the wires that connect it to ours (and

> get the raw materials for that wire on your own, through that

> mysteriously-acquired knowledge you have), then you have nothing to

> stand on when you try to tell anyone that they're dependent and you're

> not.

>

> There are some cultures in which it is normal for many generations of

> a family to live together. It would be considered " independent

> living " for a person in one of those cultures to live with their

> family, as much as it is for any other person. Whether you receive

> your money directly (as Martijn does) or indirectly (as you do) from

> the government shouldn't make much difference either. The list is

> about people doing things for themselves in their lives, whatever

> they're doing.

>

> Or as Cal (whom I believe you know) has more eloquently put it:

>

> " I am a dependent person. I eat food whose final preparation I handle

> myself, but which has come to me across roads laid and maintained by

> other people from stores staffed by other people -- and even those

> people didn't grow or raise or harvest or slaughter any of it. I wear

> clothes made by other people from cloth woven by still others. I am

> human: I depend on others. And this is called independence.

>

> " I am a dependent person. I need human contact, most of which I

> receive through an Internet built and maintained by many other people.

> I do not know my neighbors, but even face-to-face interaction requires

> someone's cooperation. I have learned from my time in isolation rooms

> that I can handle a while without human interaction, but that

> eventually it will become unbearable. I am human: I depend on others.

> And this is called independence.

>

> " I am a dependent person. The words I work with were taught to me by

> people who wrote and read them before I traced my first A. The

> language I work in is a living entity, shaped and grown over centuries

> by billions upon billions of speakers. The ideas I work on are part of

> a tradition nurtured by many thinkers. I am human: I depend on others.

> And this is called independence.

>

> " I am a dependent person. I do not -- have learned that I cannot

> safely -- live alone. I require the patterns of life to be modeled for

> me over and over again. I struggle to get, and to keep, jobs in

> workplaces designed for " plug-and-play " workers. I learn some things

> quickly and easily; I need to be explicitly taught many things that

> seem obvious to others. I am human: I depend on others. And *this* is

> called dependence.

>

> " Independent can mean self-governing. It can also mean self-reliant.

> It can deny others' influence on our decisions or others' support in

> carrying those decisions out.

>

> " Dependent can mean controlled by others. It can also mean requiring

> the support of others.

>

> " None of us, of course, is independent in either sense. We grow up in

> social contexts, supported and denied, enabled and disabled by those

> around us.

>

> " But some rely on supports which are so common as to go unnoticed,

> while others use support that is atypical and therefore apparent. Some

> supports are provided by the community as a whole and go unnoticed,

> while others are borne -- or not -- by a small number of people whose

> lives are profoundly affected.

>

> " So I know the ways in which I am dependent not by looking at how I

> depend on others, but by watching other people. I look to nondisabled

> people to tell me which kinds of dependence are recognized, which are

> devalued. I know the shame that comes with asking for " inappropriate "

> help.

>

> " Within the disability community, too, there are fault lines around

> which kinds of dependence we recognize, which kinds we devalue. "

>

> http://www.ragged-edge-mag.com/0501/0501cov.htm

>

>

>>He came over to the USA a couple of years ago and was publicly

>> " busted " at several venues for the apparent contradiction between

>>his personal life-style and the subject of his list.

>

>

> Sounds like whoever " busted " him has no understanding of either his

> personal life-style *or* the meaning of the title of his list. Which

> would be rather typical, unfortunately.

>

>

>>Another thing I found disturbing about the Inlv list was that the

>>list-owner allows it to be a lurking site for an infamous person,

>>aka " Dean /Dinand. " This person has used various lists to

>>harass many people without cause. His personal e-mail address was

>>still part of the " InLV " site when I last visited it three years

>>ago. This person is definitely not ready for prime time and is

>>dangerous.

>

>

> That's the only valid objection to the list you've raised in the

> entire post.

>

>

>>To me, Inlv is just another garden variety Internut site, not to be

>>taken seriously. comparison I much prefer 's list because the

>>people are friendlier and doesn't misrepresent himself.

>

>

> Martijn doesn't misrepresent himself with the title of his list.

> Rather, you misunderstand him.

>

> And I say this with no particular attachment to the list or the person

> running it. You just come off as really clueless on this kind of

> subject.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Who is Dean and how is he dangerous? I like the InLv list

> although I don't have the time to read all the posts.

He is an autistic man who both verbally and physically threatens

people involved with autism.

There is an extremely high probability that the person described in

the following post is him (it sounds like the sort of thing he'd

say/do, I've talked to him and his many disguises many times, but of

course there could be *more* like him for all we know):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20010811224738.19317.00000213%

40mb-fe.aol.com & oe=UTF-8