Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

[Guest guest]

I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but "knew". Buit is this logostype of knowledge

No. It is the heart's experience of the Divine Guest. Remember Jung grew up as a boy w/a father who as a pastor secretly had doubts ab his faith in 'God' n then J had the dream of Gd pooping on the cathedral! So that set him on a lifelong quest. In the end, he was rewarded. Perhaps we will learn more wh the Red Book is published by the Philemon Foundation.

www.philemonfoundation.org

I have had talks w/ 2 peop who knew him close to the end of his life. Something wondrous must have happened.

Remember the ego is disqualified as a vehicle to define that ultimate mystery.

We are like fish trying to define the ocean!

in haste

love

ao

[Guest guest]

Hello,

One hting that intringues me in the pope's speach is that I always thought

that faith and logos were best kept apart. How can one explain, for

instance, the assumption dogma with logos?

I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but " knew " . Buit is this logos

type of knowledge?

Artemis

[Guest guest]

>I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but " knew " . Buit is >this logos

type of knowledge?

Is it perhaps better categorized as " gnosis " rather than logos?

Jung 'gnew' and gnew that he gnew; unlike Pope who apparently doesn't know and,

perhaps, knows that he doesn't know. It once again highlights the long, even

ancient, debate between the forces within religions (Christian and others as

well) of pistis (belief) vs gnosis (knowing). and , and certainly

Mag seem to have been closest aligned with gnosis rather than the more familiar

dogma that has developed over the centuries that strongly favored pistis.

Unfortunately, the present Christian hierarchy seems to demand their flock

believe the unbelievable as a kind of test of the true faith, something I have

found quite odd and most unhelpful spiritually.

I read an interesting article a few years ago in a transpersonal psychology

journal about the present and growing need for 'gnosis' in psychotherapy as

opposed to the more familiar 'diagnosis' of patients, a cartesian concept that

has perhaps gone too far in the present science of psyche. Fascinating concept,

and much more than simple word play too. I rather suspect that our new/old

friend Maureen could weigh in on this subject (and I hope you will Maureen), as

it has been her life's work in the land of Oz for many years now.

Greg

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[Guest guest]

Dear Artemis,

NO. Jung said there was only one type of knowledge ...if I remember

correctly....it is personal experience in religious/spiritual matters.( Jung

said he didn't believe because he knew....had had personal experience of it)

belief is based on someone else's experiences in the end...and that , of

course can always end in doubt...because it isn't in the gut but in the head

only.

That , is of course where the Church went wrong in the age of rationalism.

It was thought everything could be reasoned out including faith.

They were wrong then, and are wrong now....where faith and religion are

concerned, logic is what keeps getting everyone in trouble. The Church fell

in love with " reason " . The Word, the Logos was never " reasonable " . It wasn't

meant to be....how could " love " ever be reasonable?

The pope is an intellectual, and intellectual snobs refuse to admit the

irrationality of the spiritual life.....and of course that is what

seminaries teach future priest!

Toni

Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

> Hello,

>

> One hting that intringues me in the pope's speach is that I always

> thought

> that faith and logos were best kept apart. How can one explain, for

> instance, the assumption dogma with logos?

> I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but " knew " . Buit is this

> logos

> type of knowledge?

>

> Artemis

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

> may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Greg....

Your translation is different and in my opinion very likely to be more

misunderstood. Pistis = faith...not belief and there is a great difference

in my mind. Jung had pistis....he purposely said he did not " believe "

The unbelievable is TRUE. That's the whole point. Whatever theology tried to

make of the love of G-d, they intellectualized the one thing that cannot

be...LOVE.

And if Jesus dying for the sins of mankind as Christians beleive, that too

is totally unbelievable. The atonement is unpelievable by any standard of

human behavior ( which is what reason and intellect are)

Why is it rewasonable for G-d to create the Universe...and then create you

or me?

Anyone child illiterate or adult can weigh in. Gnosis is a Greek word for

exactly what we call experience of the Divine (among other things) Anyone

who has been re-born, so to speak can " weigh in on this " the once born will

never understand what they have not been through...an experience that

changed their lives.

Enough of making even Jung act as if he never did anything he didn't figure

out in his brain.It is unfair, even though people today think they are

praising his immense intellect. Just read MDR.

Toni

Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

>

>

>>I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but " knew " . Buit is >this

>>logos type of knowledge?

>

> Is it perhaps better categorized as " gnosis " rather than logos?

>

> Jung 'gnew' and gnew that he gnew; unlike Pope who apparently doesn't know

> and, perhaps, knows that he doesn't know. It once again highlights the

> long, even ancient, debate between the forces within religions (Christian

> and others as well) of pistis (belief) vs gnosis (knowing). and

> , and certainly Mag seem to have been closest aligned with gnosis

> rather than the more familiar dogma that has developed over the centuries

> that strongly favored pistis. Unfortunately, the present Christian

> hierarchy seems to demand their flock believe the unbelievable as a kind

> of test of the true faith, something I have found quite odd and most

> unhelpful spiritually.

>

> I read an interesting article a few years ago in a transpersonal

> psychology journal about the present and growing need for 'gnosis' in

> psychotherapy as opposed to the more familiar 'diagnosis' of patients, a

> cartesian concept that has perhaps gone too far in the present science of

> psyche. Fascinating concept, and much more than simple word play too. I

> rather suspect that our new/old friend Maureen could weigh in on this

> subject (and I hope you will Maureen), as it has been her life's work in

> the land of Oz for many years now.

>

> Greg

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

> The most personalized portal on the Web!

>

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

> may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Alice,

We westerners are such a pompous type...we think we only have BRAIN to figure out life...me too, for a long long time till the grace of G-d hit me in the head/heart.

Didn't the French have a saying about the heart having its reasons which the reason (mind) cannot understand?

It is ego, as you said...pure pride to believe human reason is the answer to Life! We live in a culture that is embarrassed by emotion within religion on one side, and purely emotional with no anchor on the other. Jung was big enough to admit the unconscious...which seems highly unintellectual.

Toni

Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

I know Jung said the he didn't believe in God but "knew". Buit is this logostype of knowledge

No. It is the heart's experience of the Divine Guest. Remember Jung grew up as a boy w/a father who as a pastor secretly had doubts ab his faith in 'God' n then J had the dream of Gd pooping on the cathedral! So that set him on a lifelong quest. In the end, he was rewarded. Perhaps we will learn more wh the Red Book is published by the Philemon Foundation.

www.philemonfoundation.org

I have had talks w/ 2 peop who knew him close to the end of his life. Something wondrous must have happened.

Remember the ego is disqualified as a vehicle to define that ultimate mystery.

We are like fish trying to define the ocean!

in haste

love

ao

[Guest guest]

> It wasn't meant to be....how could " love " ever be reasonable?

Eloquent Toni. I'm going to remember that one. Can I quote you?

Greg

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[Guest guest]

Pistis = faith...not belief

Toni, my dict defines faith as belief in God.

Let's be fair to Greg!

Virgo Prunefiddle

[Guest guest]

--- In JUNG-FIRE , " Greg " <grieke1@..

> Jung 'gnew' and gnew that he gnew; unlike Pope who apparently doesn't

know and, perhaps, knows that he doesn't know.

Greg, I have just today (three days late and three dollars short -- see

there's that _3_ again [?!]) been reading up on a short-form Version of

the Jewish holiday Yom Kippur -- so often known both as the start of

the " Jewish New Year " and the " Day of Atonement " (and full of wonderful

textual/poetry history as well as the long histories of rituals and

observances).

I was some years ago struck by the first time I heard someone

suggest " Atonement " should be pronounced at-one-ment (see many of

Toni's threads as well, of course, as Alice's as well as so many others

here in this group of over 250 " souls " ?!). I was also struck -- as to

the other meaning of atonement (for sins) that one of my first years in

this house (my then attempted ?New Jerusalem?) was when the O.J.

Simpson trial (the first one) was dominating the news and I was having

a terrible time -- not just with the issues of the trial, but with

personal parts of my own story having to do with (for one of

these " ism " words that curdle my blood) " racism " , sexual abuse -- the

whole (for Zorba's words in a cheerier context) catastrophe -- PLUS my

current favored (least favored) " scapegoat " (see the Jewish traditions

of Yom Kippur for the origin of that word) -- the pervasive and for me,

vastly " uglifying " [that's a marte non-word) effect of the _in_vasive

as well as _per_vasive ?influence? (poison?) of the cancerous growth of

the socalled media and their version of " news " (as substitute for or

stifling of -- wasn't it Keats? truth = beauty).

It was on the Day of Atonement that the " news " was announced of O.J.'s

acquittal. I never knew O.J. Simpson personally but I knew people who

did. I was new " in town " and feeling very alone as to how to

acknowledge -- honor? respect? -- all that was involved in all of that.

So I drove to the neighborhood mom-and-pop store where I knew a few

people and bought myself a six pack of beer not knowing what to do.

Drove around my ? " New Jerusalem " ? for a while and came home wondering

what on earth to do next.

Well, you know, I think I'd only drunk one of the six beers, but I was

in some kind of -- what? Rage, as in 'anger'? " Passion " as to the

ambiguity of the " Passion of Christ " usage of that word? And in

crossing the -- those days orderly piano room (now disorderly computer

room)I tripped on the rug and fell across my hard oak coffee table with

slightly raised edges and broke two ribs!! [i told you I'm three days

late reflecting on this part of Western Civ's religio/cultural

traditions so please don't expect me to be able to " draw this thread to

a conclusion " in this particular post! :-( :-)

>

> I read an interesting article a few years ago in a transpersonal

psychology journal about the present and growing need for 'gnosis' in

psychotherapy as opposed to the more familiar 'diagnosis' of patients,

a cartesian concept that has perhaps gone too far in the present

science of psyche. Fascinating concept, and much more than simple word

play too.

This is most especially and most especially timely welcome to me today,

Greg, for personal reasons so far much too ? " unseasoned " ? (for a partly

sort of Quaker-heritage word) to go into just now. But I do want most

especially to thank you for this post, for that reason.

marte

[Guest guest]

" toni " priestt@... omagramps1 writes:

>Dear Alice,

>We westerners are such a pompous type...we think we only have

>BRAIN to figure out life...me too, for a long long time till

>the grace of G-d hit me in the head/heart.

Our civilization at the 'macro' level has become obsessed with 'rational'

thinking and pretty much forgotten the other functions, yes. But weirdly,

this has had the opposite effect on most ordinary members of our society. As

" rational " control of daily life increases daily -- micro-management of

everything with a view to increased 'efficiency' and profit (the

'Mcization' of society: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcization

http://www.mcdonaldization.com/) -- the 'average' person seems to become

less and less rational in the proper sense. It seems almost like

compensation on the mass level. The sensationalism and anti-intellectual

cast of 'pop' culture gets more and more extreme and vicious as the

'rational' tentacles of corporate control clamp down on more and more facets

of life. Of the famous dystopias, we look much more like " Brave New World "

than " 1984 " .

>Didn't the French have a saying about the heart having its reasons

>which the reason (mind) cannot understand?

Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point.

(The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing)

-- Blaise Pascal (1623-62), Pensées, 277

This of course presumes the sort of person who has time away from constantly

attending to micro-management of material things, and shock-a-minute

media-driven entertainment, to reflect and sense the message of the 'heart'.

A life of Mcized micro-managing employment and absorption in frenetic

media during 'free' time doesn't allow many people of this sort to exist.

>It is ego, as you said...pure pride to believe human reason is

>the answer to Life! We live in a culture that is embarrassed

>by emotion within religion on one side, and purely emotional

>with no anchor on the other. Jung was big enough to admit the

>unconscious...which seems highly unintellectual.

Paradox, though. In a culture built around rational control of everything

how does one 'relax' the rational mind and let the other function operate

without getting caught in the manipulation? That's what the media circus is

about. Keep the proles busy, and tell them they want those shiny consumer

goodies, so they keep the economy humming without asking the wrong

questions. If you can't get away from it, and most people can't, you are

stuck in the same rut as the mass culture.

[Guest guest]

Dear Alice,

I thought this was a Jung...ian list. Why would a dictionary rule it over Jung?????. And in Jung the 2 words are very differently discerned.

I care not a whit about being fair...I am repeating a belief I first learned from Jung. In fact it is basic to his whole premise.

Must Greg be protected from someone pointing out a truth...as far as Jung is concerned? Here?

This is so basic to my understanding, I will stick to what I wrote. I doubt seriously that Greg's feelings are hurt.

I say again: quote"I do not need to believe, because I have "pistis"...I know"

So lets be very clear about what Jung makes of the difference.

He even shows the difference between "directed" thinking...belief with "undirected" thinking which comes from the unconscious.

Belief is an intellectual assent to someone else's experience.( As a great Pentecostal once said:" G-d has no grandchildren")

Only experience of one's own psyche is faith .Directed thinking is thinking in words.. The clearest model of directed thinking is science, says Jung.

I quote from "Symbols of Transformation"

"The scientific approach marks the Divine figure which faith posits as the supreme certainty, into a variable and hardly definable quantity...." Science therefore

puts in the place of certainty of faith, the uncertainty of human knowledge." ( Obviously creeds and doctrine of religion are directed thinking which categories what "one" must believe, intellectually assent to.

"All inner experience springs from the unconscious, over which we have no control"

Paragraph #95

Faith is a subjective experience, belief is an assent to intellectual conceptions formed by someone eel's experience, and made into creed. the person only believes what he is taught.

I chose this path, Jung speaks about faith often. I could find you lots of others. Faith and belief are different. Faith comes from personal experience of the Divine. Belief has no need of personal inner experience...only a brain to accept whatever it wishes.

The dictionary is fine for many things, but not the way a person gives his own thoughts. I find Jung wonderful in this respect. it changed my whole idea of spirituality and religion.

I think the dictionary would be the last place I would look for Jung's understanding of pivotal words in his psychology.

Gee, Greg, if your feelings are hurt by my understanding of something so central...please realize you are in great company in this culture....which believes all the words in the Bible are to be taken literally. And because of "beliefs" like that most modern people give up on belief itself.(No one argues about believing his own inner experiences.....)

Toni

Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

Pistis = faith...not belief

Toni, my dict defines faith as belief in God.

Let's be fair to Greg!

Virgo Prunefiddle

[Guest guest]

>Gee, Greg, if your feelings are hurt by my understanding of something so

central...please realize you are in great company

in this culture....which believes all the words in the Bible are to be taken

literally.

Toni,

My point had little to do with the difference between faith/belief. That

distinction is not so important to me frankly as it apparently is for you. I

tend to use the two, perhaps incorrectly, interchangibly.

I was speaking primarily about pistis vs gnosis, a very old debate indeed, and

one that has not yet been settled - at least by those who prefer pistis as the

higher virtue. Perhaps it can't be truly settled until one truly experiences

gnosis - as a few claim to have done. The rest must take that

possibility/reality " on faith. " My question is this: " given the choice of

believing something of knowing it, which would you prefer? " For me the answer

is simple. For others, it seems less straight forward.

Greg

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[Guest guest]

Dear Greg,

I can believe that G-d loves me until the cows come home, but if I have not

experienced that love and therefore " know " it, it doesn't warm my heart. We

must first be loved before we can give love...the real kind....so too many

" believe " in it; very few know it in their gut.

Further as Jung says, belief is a step away from doubt....that is not the

problem with actual experience.

Toni

Re: Interesting:Pope/Islam Logos

>

>

>>Gee, Greg, if your feelings are hurt by my understanding of something so

>>central...please realize you are in great company

> in this culture....which believes all the words in the Bible are to be

> taken literally.

>

> Toni,

>

> My point had little to do with the difference between faith/belief. That

> distinction is not so important to me frankly as it apparently is for you.

> I tend to use the two, perhaps incorrectly, interchangibly.

>

> I was speaking primarily about pistis vs gnosis, a very old debate indeed,

> and one that has not yet been settled - at least by those who prefer

> pistis as the higher virtue. Perhaps it can't be truly settled until one

> truly experiences gnosis - as a few claim to have done. The rest must take

> that possibility/reality " on faith. " My question is this: " given the

> choice of believing something of knowing it, which would you prefer? " For

> me the answer is simple. For others, it seems less straight forward.

>

> Greg

>

> _______________________________________________

> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

> The most personalized portal on the Web!

>

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

> may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>