Re: God, bible...

[Guest guest]

Joe Matera wrote:

Dear Joe.

Huh. This guy wrote Kansas' "Dust in the Wind", a nihilistic song that

I have always found very comforting - probably because I suspect it is

true.

Regards,

Dan Watkins

"All my dreams pass before my eyes a curiosity..."

Kansas

Hi all,

Hope everyone is well. I came across this article today and as I read

it, I

couldn't help but feel a sense of anger. Why do people who suddenly find

"Jesus" become quite extreme in views? I mean, I'm a firm believer in

reading between the lines of what is being said. and when I read this

all I

could sense was ignorance, bigotry, extremity etc, things that Jung

would

say was "an engulfing of the unconscious mind". The unacknowledged

shadow

manifesting itself.

I also see things like drug addiction being replaced by religion as the

same

thing, but in a different form. Yes, a lot of people would say that

"their

born again experience" is one of life while drug addiction is one of

death.

Well, that might be the case, but it gets the individual no closer to

achieving wholeness and understanding. And phrases like "new age

sew-age" in

this article just shows the intolerence and violent nature of these

"born

agains". All must obey Jesus? This is nothing more than a master and

slave

mentality and another reason why Christianity of this extreme like this

has

been barbaric and violent in nature for 2,000 years...sorry for the

ranting,

check it out.

http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=502

[Guest guest]

Joe wrote:

> a lot of people would say that " their born again experience " is one of life

while drug addiction is one of death. Well, that might be the case, but it gets

the individual no closer to achieving wholeness and understanding. And phrases

like " new age sew-age " in this article just shows the intolerence and violent

nature of these " born

agains " . All must obey Jesus? This is nothing more than a master and

slave mentality and another reason why Christianity of this extreme like this

has been barbaric and violent in nature for 2,000 years...sorry for the ranting

Dear Dan and Joe,

I don't think either of you is ranting on this topic. Thanks for bringing this

" Kansas " article to our attention Joe. To a degree I agree with your reflections

of the way the born again experiece is interpreted by those who have had it.

And first I should say that I do NOT deny that they have had such an experience.

Furthermore, it is both real and powerful to those who have experienced it. And

for many, it moves them into a new life than propels them toward the Good. So I

see that it is helpful to them, allowing them to live a more productive,

joy-filled life. I don't see that as a 'bad' thing. I have spent some time

with the esoteric end of the Christian theological spectrum, and find much there

to commend. It is far from " new-age sew-age " as he so harshly and negatively

suggested.

Yet they are left with the psycho-spiritual task of interpreting the revelation.

Sometimes this leads to a generous amount of inflation. But needless to say it

is always interpreted somehow to " make sense " of it. In the case of the Kansas

guy, he had to make sense of his epiphany, in light of the question he asked,

namely is Jesus the true son of God....and other items. The feeling that washed

over him suggested a certain answer to his questions, which he intrepreted in a

way that both helped him reflect on and " make sense " of his revelation, but in a

way that alienated him from many loved ones in his life who couldn't possibly

relate to his experience from their own POV.

But perhaps his dilemma (if he believes that he has one, which is doubtful) is

in the way he answered/interpreted the epiphany. And he did so within the mental

construct/worldview of evangelical Christianity - one I find to be often severly

limiting (mostly because of its simplistic language). I have the same challenge

with members of my own family, including my dear sister, who now thinks only in

terms of the evangelical lens (thanks to her regular Bible study group, which

often seems like a kind of brain washing). Yet what she has come to realize is

not so different from my own non-evangelical experience. Yet when she tries to

explain to me her views of " holy spirit " " works " " faith " I find much in common

with them, even as I use entirely different language and context through which

to explain/understand them. Sometimes words get in the way. And, for me, this

has been a major problem with the evangelicals. Their language often gets in

" my " way, " even while what they are

saying is often understandable to me. I'm not so sure that their understanding

of my words is so easily comprehended though - or fit within their lens of

perception. And I'm not sure if that is my problem..... or theirs.

Greg

_______________________________________________

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

The most personalized portal on the Web!

[Guest guest]

Re: God, bible...

Greg writes:

I have the same challenge with members of my own family, including my

dear sister, who now thinks only in terms of the evangelical lens (thanks to

her regular Bible study group, which often seems like a kind of brain

washing).

N: I suppose that Bible Study groups may differ. Our leader developed a

bad back and made me the reluctant new leader shortly after I said it was my

perception that probably Jesus became possessed by an inflation shortly

before driving the money lenders from the temple. And that his words on the

cross, " . . .why have you forsaken me " represented a tragically late

reawakening to reality.

The general stance of the group is far more conventional than this and

now, though I still speak my mind, as (aaugh) leader I must be as respectful

of their views as I think others should be of mine.

Like you, Greg, I'm not sure how much of my Jungian approach is actually

taken in by them.

We've just gotten a new woman vicar - Beth Long (some or her sermon's

online) who plans to attend. It will be interesting to see what effect that

has.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

Yes, he did write that song. I too find it "very spiritual" and comforting and true. It's a little like Cat s befiore he became a Muslim. He wrote some of the most spiritual and comforting songs, many revealing the inner life. Yet nowadays he distances himself because he said "he was not who he really was when he wrote those" and they don't find in with his life as a Muslim now...

Re: God, bible...

Joe Matera wrote:Dear Joe.Huh. This guy wrote Kansas' "Dust in the Wind", a nihilistic song that I have always found very comforting - probably because I suspect it is true.Regards,Dan Watkins"All my dreams pass before my eyes a curiosity..." Kansas

Hi all,Hope everyone is well. I came across this article today and as I read it, Icouldn't help but feel a sense of anger. Why do people who suddenly find"Jesus" become quite extreme in views? I mean, I'm a firm believer inreading between the lines of what is being said. and when I read this all Icould sense was ignorance, bigotry, extremity etc, things that Jung wouldsay was "an engulfing of the unconscious mind". The unacknowledged shadowmanifesting itself.I also see things like drug addiction being replaced by religion as the samething, but in a different form. Yes, a lot of people would say that "theirborn again experience" is one of life while drug addiction is one of death.Well, that might be the case, but it gets the individual no closer toachieving wholeness and understanding. And phrases like "new age sew-age" inthis article just shows the intolerence and violent nature of these "bornagains". All must obey Jesus? This is nothing more than a master and slavementality and another reason why Christianity of this extreme like this hasbeen barbaric and violent in nature for 2,000 years...sorry for the ranting,check it out.http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=502

[Guest guest]

Yes, thanks for posting the Kansas article, Joe. I thought of Cat s right away too, and of Bob Dylan who was briefly Saved and then fell away. I've been reflecting on the power of the evangelical movement a great deal lately. And I've been taking part in a discussion about it on another list, a real slice-of-life list with a good number of capital C Christians on it, which is pretty enlightening.I think there are a numbers of factors at play. First, people are really, really starved for a meaningful, comforting mythology right now. We are all being dis-illusioned now and are going to be even more so in the next few years; it's what Saturn opposite Neptune brings (2004 -2008). Many people are already gasping for hope.Then, I think the current Christian myth is very carefully crafted to touch the soul. It uses powerful and valid parts of the older Christian mythology, but it leaves out the parts that don't suit its goal, which in my understanding, unfortunately, is to divide us. Take the Left Behind Series (40 million sold between 1995 and 2005 - second only to the Bible!) If LeHay's intention was to bring us together, surely he wouldn't cast the UN and a man who professes to be a peacemaker as the Anti-Christ. It's frustrating and frightening to see people urged on to war, but I think that's what's happening. I really believe the Rapture myth is being perpetrated as purposefully as the Ubermensch myth was in Hitler's Germany. And so many people, good people, kind people, people who really want what's best, who truly love, and who truly walk their talk, true spiritual seekers, are being taken in by this frightening mythology all the time. It's pure diabolos, dividing us against our neighbors and our families. Finally, I think the people behind the promotion of this scary belief system are doing the whole ritual exactly right  - particularly for the people they are trying to bring into their power. They're using time-honored and powerful spiritual techniques like surrender, baptism, prayer, singing, and imagery combined with time-honored techniques of demogoguery: anti-intellectualism, an appeal to the prejudices of the audience, and a comfortable but false sense of empowerment. So the people who buy into these sects actually do get what they're looking for. The imagery is about as primal and powerful as it gets and the experience is real and on-going. What more can you ask?And, once you're over that line onto the Saved part of planet Earth, you get to look back and see how bad things really are and not be bothered by it. You are no longer fooled by the wiles of the material world. You're beyond it. In fact, it's such a relief to inhabit a world full of meaning after touching the place a beautiful song like "Dust in the Wind" takes you, you can be downright smug. Part of me moans, oh, God, how can we have come to this? Didn't we learn from World War 2? And the other part kind of steps back enough to see that Alice is right, it's just the changing of the Age, not the end of the world.But oh, boy, what a catastrophe these True Believers may be wreaking.EveThis is nothing more than a master and slave mentality and another reason why Christianity of this extreme like this has been barbaric and violent in nature for 2,000 years.. Drive slowly.Some of us walking alongside are lame.        Rumi

[Guest guest]

Hi Eve,

Thank you for this thought proviking post. It sums how I also feel about all of this. It is truly a shame. Going back to the Cat s and Kansas song, I always found those songs to touch my spirit, and gave me thought to reflect on life's wonderful journey. But like you said, once these people become born-again, they suddenly disown their past and suddenly the humanism and spirituality shown in these songs, is replaced with one of abandonment and religiousity if I may use the word. It's like the Holy Spirit, it becomes a vehicle for them to use at their disposal to enforce their mind set. I never forget reading an article once, from a Buddhist perspective, that said that the Holy Spirit really means that any life spirit is holy. In other words the "spirit" is holy in all humanity and animals. Unfortunately these people have taken it to a different level and corrupted it's essence, that's my opinion.

One thing I also noticed is how the shadow is at play here. I believe that the more you fight against something it reflects as Jung said, the eaxct thing in yourself. So these peope who go around saying "the devil is in there, or here" are actually revealing themselves to be the ones "possessed by the devil" to use the term loosely. I think Anton leVar (head of Church Of Satan) once put it perfectly, "the devil is the best invention (concept) that has kept the church in business for 2000 years"...

Sorry for ranting on again.

Joe

Re: God, bible...

Yes, thanks for posting the Kansas article, Joe. I thought of Cat s right away too, and of Bob Dylan who was briefly Saved and then fell away. I've been reflecting on the power of the evangelical movement a great deal lately. And I've been taking part in a discussion about it on another list, a real slice-of-life list with a good number of capital C Christians on it, which is pretty enlightening.

I think there are a numbers of factors at play.

First, people are really, really starved for a meaningful, comforting mythology right now. We are all being dis-illusioned now and are going to be even more so in the next few years; it's what Saturn opposite Neptune brings (2004 -2008). Many people are already gasping for hope.

Then, I think the current Christian myth is very carefully crafted to touch the soul. It uses powerful and valid parts of the older Christian mythology, but it leaves out the parts that don't suit its goal, which in my understanding, unfortunately, is to divide us.

Take the Left Behind Series (40 million sold between 1995 and 2005 - second only to the Bible!) If LeHay's intention was to bring us together, surely he wouldn't cast the UN and a man who professes to be a peacemaker as the Anti-Christ. It's frustrating and frightening to see people urged on to war, but I think that's what's happening. I really believe the Rapture myth is being perpetrated as purposefully as the Ubermensch myth was in Hitler's Germany. And so many people, good people, kind people, people who really want what's best, who truly love, and who truly walk their talk, true spiritual seekers, are being taken in by this frightening mythology all the time. It's pure diabolos, dividing us against our neighbors and our families.

Finally, I think the people behind the promotion of this scary belief system are doing the whole ritual exactly right - particularly for the people they are trying to bring into their power. They're using time-honored and powerful spiritual techniques like surrender, baptism, prayer, singing, and imagery combined with time-honored techniques of demogoguery: anti-intellectualism, an appeal to the prejudices of the audience, and a comfortable but false sense of empowerment.

So the people who buy into these sects actually do get what they're looking for. The imagery is about as primal and powerful as it gets and the experience is real and on-going. What more can you ask?

And, once you're over that line onto the Saved part of planet Earth, you get to look back and see how bad things really are and not be bothered by it. You are no longer fooled by the wiles of the material world. You're beyond it. In fact, it's such a relief to inhabit a world full of meaning after touching the place a beautiful song like "Dust in the Wind" takes you, you can be downright smug.

Part of me moans, oh, God, how can we have come to this? Didn't we learn from World War 2? And the other part kind of steps back enough to see that Alice is right, it's just the changing of the Age, not the end of the world.

But oh, boy, what a catastrophe these True Believers may be wreaking.

Eve

This is nothing more than a master and slave mentality and another reason why Christianity of this extreme like this has been barbaric and violent in nature for 2,000 years..

Drive slowly.

Some of us walking alongside are lame.

Rumi

[Guest guest]

II never forget reading an article once, from a Buddhist perspective, that said that the Holy Spirit really means that any life spirit is holy. In other words the "spirit" is holy in all humanity and animals. Yes, I love this idea. It's what Alice calls Sophia or the Divine Guest. One thing I also noticed is how the shadow is at play here. I believe that the more you fight against something it reflects as Jung said, the eaxct thing in yourself. So these peope who go around saying "the devil is in there, or here" are actually revealing themselves to be the ones "possessed by the devil" to use the term loosely. I think Anton leVar (head of Church Of Satan) once put it perfectly, "the devil is the best invention (concept) that has kept the church in business for 2000 years"...Yep, I'm with you here, too. I guess it's the manifestation of such two perspectives: seeing through two eyes, and believing in Good/God and Evil/Devil; or seeing through one, the third eye, and believing we are all One/God.Eve "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority."   - E. B. White

[Guest guest]

Yes, still. I’m having a Cat

s renaissance, I’ve rediscovered him it seems. I hear what you are

saying, but I just have to write it up to sometimes it’s the message, not

the messenger…. Don’t through away the baby and all that with the

bathwater… still great songs…

Miriam

From: JUNG-FIRE

[mailto:JUNG-FIRE ] On Behalf Of Joe Matera

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 5:37 PM

To: JUNG-FIRE

Subject: Re: God,

bible...

Yes, he did write that song. I too find it " very

spiritual " and comforting and true. It's a little like Cat s befiore

he became a Muslim. He wrote some of the most spiritual and comforting songs,

many revealing the inner life. Yet nowadays he distances himself because he

said " he was not who he really was when he wrote those " and they

don't find in with his life as a Muslim now...

[Guest guest]

Apologies (had to do it!! With all the

virgo prunefiddles!!) – “throw” not “through”

From: JUNG-FIRE

[mailto:JUNG-FIRE ] On Behalf Of miriam

Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:58

AM

To: JUNG-FIRE

Subject: RE: God,

bible...

Yes, still. I’m having a Cat

s renaissance, I’ve rediscovered him it seems. I hear what

you are saying, but I just have to write it up to sometimes it’s the

message, not the messenger…. Don’t through away the baby and all

that with the bathwater… still great songs…

Miriam

[Guest guest]

Take the Left Behind Series (40 million sold between 1995 and 2005 - second only to the Bible!) If LeHay's intention was to bring us together, surely he wouldn't cast the UN and a man who professes to be a peacemaker as the Anti-Christ. It's frustrating and frightening to see people urged on to war, but I think that's what's happening. I really believe the Rapture myth is being perpetrated as purposefully as the Ubermensch myth was in Hitler's Germany. And so many people, good people, kind people, people who really want what's best, who truly love, and who truly walk their talk, true spiritual seekers, are being taken in by this frightening mythology all the time. It's pure diabolos, dividing us against our neighbors and our families.

Right on!

in haste

love

ao