Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 It also perhaps suggests that instead of "god is dead" that what N may have been saying is that the prevailing imago dei (ie god image) is dead. That accords w/my definition of an atheist: "An atheist is one who has rejected the idea of God of the level beneath his understanding." in haste love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Dear Greg,and all of us who look for certainty in the (what i think ) is the wrong level of our being. you said: " We want to believe, to have certainty, yet we can't quite grasp it rationally. And perhaps we really never can. And perhaps that is because the idea of God is constantly evolving and beyond human description. " According to most wisdom, ancient and modern, East and West...rationality is not the way to G-d. Even the Church admits,that " grace builds on nature " and in no way is " grace " logical or rational. I never can understand why we westerners think...that rationality is the way to truth. hasn't our failure in all societal ways but technology and hard science taught us yet that, as Jung himself said, the truth of G-d can only come from the unconscious.( Ever heard of a logical, rational myth?) We have got to stop thinking that our salvation ,personal and cultural comes from only being more logical, reasonable and rational. It is our pride, I think, as intellectuals, or would-be-intellectuals that we cannot abandon outworn attempts to find GO-do by reason. To me, GO-do is totally unreasonable. Love is totally unreasonable, and as far as my tiny mind sees creating the world and giving life to me and everyone else is also unreasonable. What could be greater than the " life " we have been given? It surely doesn't " make sense " nor is the beauty of creation " necessary...it could as well be ugly , could it not? Reason is necessary for our creaturely life here, that's why we treasure it. But all the greatest good like beauty and hope are totally un-reasonable, un-logical. Sure to run a business, get an education, make money and gain power we need reason...cold calculating reason...we need it for an atomic bomb to be built and Salk vaccine to help our health...along with all those wonderful surgical and medical instruments. But they deal with our body...they do not have much to say about our souls. Talking of Zen, for example, the whole idea is to stop thinking...that's what a koan is all about. Truth comes to us as enlightenment...it doesn't come from logic. The mystics would;ld agree all over the ages and lands. Betty's " idea of G-d " never came from her reason, nor does ours. The unconscious is where that comes from. An image, any image starts with an archetype does it not, or am I total;ly wrong? Can we even think a thought without imagining an image? Even staring into " nothingness' presents an image...maybe darkness, or light, or depth...something. I personally do not have an " image " of G-d as sometype of Anthropos...but even wind, " rauch, spirit congers up " something " A " presence " totally indefinable but felt " is how i understand it, personal. ( furthermore if I remember my Jung correctly, we cannot think without projecting...it is how we recognize our reality)And what we can reject are the outworn, outgrown imageos of our earlier days.That is called growth, but we cannot stop yearning. Call it whatever you like, the human mind cannot conceive " G-d " . That archetype is a given I believe, in human beings.And archetypes must be represented and recognized by our senses. Why is it so hard for us proud intellectually gifted persons to finally understand what has been the truth of the ages....our minds can only reason so far.....We can establish a theology, and count angels on the head of pins,and theories of redemption, atonement etc. but we cannot adore, praise,love G-d with our intelligence alone. G-d to many on this earth is love...now how does one describe that rationally? To me, that which created me, and loved me into life is always due worship. I certainly did not put myself here and sustain myself nor the world around me. Worship,praise,adoration, devotion are all matters of love....when we realize that we are first loved before we can return it, maybe we will let our overworked intelligence rest for a moment in the joy of worship.We will " know " when we stop being purely logical, rational reasonable in human terms. Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student of theology, and religions that no amount of information can ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > > Betty wrote: > > I can't help but ask what is a person, who has rejected the idea of God of > the current level of understanding? He has rejected the current > projections and realizes for himself any new image for the new level of > understanding will still be projection and will denigrate the new idea of > God of the next level of understanding. That God has to be without imago > for me. I am not rejecting God, I am just rejecting imagoes. If this > sounds flippant, it is certainly not meant to be. This is what I struggle > with at 78 ( my bout with the opposites), when I should be basking in > certainities. I cannot totally put behind me the old images. One day I > cling to them like I did for most of my life. The next, like today, I > can't put them totally away, but I recognize as satisfying as they are, > they are not due worship for me and gnosis tells me this. What is? > > Dear Betty, > > Thanks for this soul-full sharing. I do NOT consider what you have > written flippant. Indeed, you have verbalized what so many of us feel, > certainly I do. And I believe it was also this intensely human sharing > that both Jung and Nietzsche were attempting, in their day, as well. They > were bridging between levels of Soul and Spirit in discussing the Imago > Dei, the God image - the idea of God that we somehow evolve into as > collectively and as individual humans. And the image of God differs > greatly in the collective sense - as seen in the diversity of churches, > religions and sects of various description. > > I think you have shared a profound truth here. We do struggle, each of us > (if we are honest with ourselves) as to what/who God is. We want to > believe, to have certainty, yet we can't quite grasp it rationally. And > perhaps we really never can. And perhaps that is because the idea of God > is constantly evolving and beyond human description. And we, collectively > as well as individually, evolve as a species as this image changes over > time. Certainly the God of the OT is quite different from the God image > offered by JC in the NT. Jung expounded on this subject in a most > disturbing way in his ANSWER TO JOB, in which he talks about this very > phenomenon. The long suffering and faithful Job has everything taken from > him by a God (Image) which is shown to be inadequate,even immoral - one > who wagers with Satan for the soul of Job. Who wants to believe in a God > image like that? Thus the answer to Job is that image which succeeds this > one, but which could not have happened but for > Job's own experience of the Divine, which the made the evolution > possible - for him and, later, for us. > > Jung himself struggled with his own certainties, as he shared so > poignantly in his final memoir, MDR. Near the end of his life, after he > had acquired so much understanding of Life and of the human psyche, Jung > confessed that he wasn't so sure of all of it - or of his certainties. > But he was still in awe of the majesty of Life, even as he was unable to > describe it fully. In so he reminded us yet again that describing the > indescribable, in human terms and language, remains impossible...that the > journey from head to heart is still the greatest of all, but that the > quest still gives our lives meaning and purpose, even if we unable to > describe the object of it all (God) perfectly. > > I certainly don't claim to know the answers. But I do appreciate your > asking the profound questions for our discussion as we try to move closer > to gnoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Anyone interested, I wonder what we think we are doing when we turn our faces to the unknown? It seems to me that those who think we cannot reach G-d on our own make a lot of sense. Certainly the mystics know that experience comes unbidden and un-worked for. And Buddhist know that enlightenment " comes " on its own, not when we program it. We can put ourselves totally at the disposal of " what IS " but even that urge seems to many to come as a gift of grace. That old " leap of faith " so often talked about in the past may be our only contribution to that relationship. What are we ready to do within ourselves to prepare the way for any experience of the All? Thinking rationally certainly will not do anything but show us our own brilliance....it will not of itself produce the Presence, or allow us to receive the love freely offered. I guess we have to open the door so to speak, keep it open perhaps even when fear is likely to overtake us...and be willing to give everything including security and safety, even death first before what we desire may come. When one reads MDR one sees the humility of Jung, and his strength on betting everything for his experiences. We cannot hold on to what we are and have, while taking a small step on solid ground. What happens when the ground gives way....and we are in danger, so we think, of survival? In my thinking about the problem of belief, gnosis, faith as we so often discuss.....the struggle is always at the end, will we give up the safety we assume is ours to reach for the unreachable...knowing as soon as we reach, we have arrived. But we won't know that until we are ready to bet our lives, our souls and everything dear....that I believe is what abiding faith hinges on. Sure we all get occasions of what used to be called " consolations " , but we soon discover we cannot stay there, or we begin to doubt anything has changed. " I made it up " ,you can't depend upon feelings " its all nonsense anyway, or a self trance???? We cannot have it both ways, yet we human beings are always trying to do just that. Either we surrender or we march on under our own steam....until pride finally shows us that we soon come to an end of " GOING IT alone " The Abyss looms ahead. What we say we want is " proof " scientific proof even, before we take that leap, that bet. Everything we have ever learned about our relationship to Whatever, tells us, we cannot sit on the fence or have our cake and eat it too. We either give it all for that pearl of great price, or we walk away unfulfilled, sorry, disappointed, and even unbelieving...because we have no experience to hang on to. It is not up to us to say what we will do in order for a relationship with the all, I think. it is only up to us to say " yes " ....and we cannot do that as long as we think we can think our way to the Answer. Just some thoughts, emotions going through my mind as I ponder the posts.If I bore you, forgive me, and delete. Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > > Betty wrote: > > I can't help but ask what is a person, who has rejected the idea of God of > the current level of understanding? He has rejected the current > projections and realizes for himself any new image for the new level of > understanding will still be projection and will denigrate the new idea of > God of the next level of understanding. That God has to be without imago > for me. I am not rejecting God, I am just rejecting imagoes. If this > sounds flippant, it is certainly not meant to be. This is what I struggle > with at 78 ( my bout with the opposites), when I should be basking in > certainities. I cannot totally put behind me the old images. One day I > cling to them like I did for most of my life. The next, like today, I > can't put them totally away, but I recognize as satisfying as they are, > they are not due worship for me and gnosis tells me this. What is? > > Dear Betty, > > Thanks for this soul-full sharing. I do NOT consider what you have > written flippant. Indeed, you have verbalized what so many of us feel, > certainly I do. And I believe it was also this intensely human sharing > that both Jung and Nietzsche were attempting, in their day, as well. They > were bridging between levels of Soul and Spirit in discussing the Imago > Dei, the God image - the idea of God that we somehow evolve into as > collectively and as individual humans. And the image of God differs > greatly in the collective sense - as seen in the diversity of churches, > religions and sects of various description. > > I think you have shared a profound truth here. We do struggle, each of us > (if we are honest with ourselves) as to what/who God is. We want to > believe, to have certainty, yet we can't quite grasp it rationally. And > perhaps we really never can. And perhaps that is because the idea of God > is constantly evolving and beyond human description. And we, collectively > as well as individually, evolve as a species as this image changes over > time. Certainly the God of the OT is quite different from the God image > offered by JC in the NT. Jung expounded on this subject in a most > disturbing way in his ANSWER TO JOB, in which he talks about this very > phenomenon. The long suffering and faithful Job has everything taken from > him by a God (Image) which is shown to be inadequate,even immoral - one > who wagers with Satan for the soul of Job. Who wants to believe in a God > image like that? Thus the answer to Job is that image which succeeds this > one, but which could not have happened but for > Job's own experience of the Divine, which the made the evolution > possible - for him and, later, for us. > > Jung himself struggled with his own certainties, as he shared so > poignantly in his final memoir, MDR. Near the end of his life, after he > had acquired so much understanding of Life and of the human psyche, Jung > confessed that he wasn't so sure of all of it - or of his certainties. > But he was still in awe of the majesty of Life, even as he was unable to > describe it fully. In so he reminded us yet again that describing the > indescribable, in human terms and language, remains impossible...that the > journey from head to heart is still the greatest of all, but that the > quest still gives our lives meaning and purpose, even if we unable to > describe the object of it all (God) perfectly. > > I certainly don't claim to know the answers. But I do appreciate your > asking the profound questions for our discussion as we try to move closer > to gnoing. Perhaps if we do ever claim to " know " we should no longer > claim to be human. And then, as Nietzsche suggested, we would have become > " above " " good " and " evil. " This does not appear to be the case on a mass > scale to be sure. Yet, we still aspire to a higher level of Gnosis, even > as our faith (Pistis) is constantly being tested in the dynamic interplay > between the head and the heart. And this is not a haughty, arrogant > thing, it is one of great devotion and awe of the indescribable and > mysterious. In some strange way it reminds me of the tenderness of the > attitude of love/devotion that Barrett Browning described in her > Sonnets from the Portuguese, written in 1850: > > How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. > I love thee to the depth and breadth and height > My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight > For the ends of being and ideal grace. > I love thee to the level of every day's > Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light. > I love thee freely, as men strive for right. > I love thee purely, as they turn from praise. > I love thee with the passion put to use > In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith. > I love thee with a love I seemed to lose > With my lost saints - I love with the breath, > Smiles, tears, of all my life! - and, if God [You] choose, > I shall but love thee better after death. > > Perhaps this is the attitude of quality of mind/heart required of us as we > individually approach our own Imago Dei (DG). > > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > > > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings > may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Toni, yr post is full of wisdom expressed in a human, contemporary, understandable fashion. real keeper! Bless u! love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Toni wrote: >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student of theology, and religions that no amount of information can ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. Dear Toni, What you wrote required and produced much thought. Greg _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Dear fire-sitters, I agree that struggling by itself does not get us "there" and that grace is required. I also believe that like the seeds in the bible story, the ground must be fertile in order for the seed to take root and then for the plant to fluorish. If the ground is too stony or too thin then all the grace in the world can't "take hold." I think mayhap there's where the struggle or whatever you wish to term it comes in. It's like making compost out of the refuse of our lives and then using that to enrich the ground upon which the seed of grace can fall. Otherwise the seed may indeed fall but without proper preparation it withers and dies. Or maybe not. There are seeds that can remain dormant until the conditions change and then they sprout. In any event, it still takes work on our part even then. Like my friend "" says, "Work like it all depends on you, pray like it all depends on God." Blissings Sam Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student of theology, and religions that no amount of information can ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. > > So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. > I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. > > > Dear Toni, > > What you wrote required and produced much thought. > > Greg Dear Toni, I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief and even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to connect with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to use the thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to awaken the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not need nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and other seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. Mmmm... . > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > "Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering." H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Yes, , I hear ya. I, too, have learned to let go a lot more than I once did. Crash-and-burns can teach us a lot about just how much in control we really are. And, to continue my metaphor a bit, there does come a time in the farming cycle when that's about all we can do. The seed falls, it sprouts, and except for a bit of weeding and things now and again, that's about all we have control over. After that it's essentially wait and go with the flow. I'm amazed at how much freedom there is in not having to control things. Well, I guess everything balances out. You're leaving your broadband and I just got mine about a week ago. Still messing with it a bit but it's coming along. I hope you can get to a computer in a library or something like that so we can continue to hear from you. Blissings, Sam Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > > > > > >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student > of theology, and religions that no amount of information can > ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I > came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. > > > > So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is > our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. > > I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. > > > > > > Dear Toni, > > > > What you wrote required and produced much thought. > > > > Greg > > Dear Toni, > I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief and > even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to connect > with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. > What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to use the > thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? > What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to awaken > the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not need > nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is > spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and other > seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might > never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. > Mmmm... > . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > > The most personalized portal on the Web! > > > > > > > > "Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be > freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering." > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Dear , You are way ahead of most thinking/feeling people in knowing that we cannot even begin without grace. Every step of the way is for us a reaction to the grace/love we have been given first. In meditation and contemplation of the classical kind, one makes oneself ready.( by not using the ego to think great thoughts or small ones)...then one waits, and waits. Sometime the grace comes in a swoosh, sometime it comes slowly and sometimes we think it has not come at all. But what really do we know about how it works? I have always felt myself in the hand of G-d. he/she /it is staring at me...this is the way I used to image it...... If G-d turned away for an instant, I would cease to exist. But knowing how loved I was and cherished, I knew that would never happen. It hangs on one's conception of " why are we here and " what is G-d. " That too I think about, muse about or I used to. But that I was created by someone who was not about to stamp out his own work, made me know everything would be alright, in the universe and in me wherever I was. If G-d is not love, he /she it does not exist for me. Where else would we learn it? We are born with that capacity, and unless it is totally brutally treated, it remains with us. I would think most of us sometimes feel we are alone, hello...is there anyone " out there " ? A silent G-d so to speak...but not an absent one. Why would he/she /it, decide some creations are OK and some not? Why give everything to some and leave others? I just cannot square this with my idea, knowledge of who G-d is in my life. I do know that is spite of grace, or because of it, we are also subject to " karma " or the consequences of our actions...but that too is a form of love. I cannot see someone a " failure " in the eyes of the G-d I know. It makes no sense...is the failure G-d's, it would be in some way,wouldn't it? I think we are all dealt with differently in accord with the culture, personality and circumstances of our life. There is no one pattern for all. I have heard of many nuns and monks who have adored their G-d for 70-80 years and who feel they have never received the gift to know, or the closeness which comes with the numinous. It happens, and they are good and worthy people...perhaps saints, why not? I for one have no idea how the One works, nor why what happens does...that is not my place. I don't think you or anyone is " at fault " in any way, if the desire is there. One cannmot fail...There is not one set of standards for everyone, and those who don't make it are lost or failures...Not in my mind, anyway. You have the harder part. You are patient where I for one am so impatient ....I want everything, and to be immediately what G-d wants me to be. That gets in the way of acceptance or surrender, if I maintain my willfulness.??? I salute you for the faith to be patient. I also agree that union with G-d does not depend on our thinking or feeling. We do nothing except stand there waiting. Grace/love does it all. I remind myself and you that both gnosis and to an faith are not ours to give ourselves. They are also grace. There is nothing about " this world " in the gnosis I profess. I do nothing to " earn " prepare for, for the knowledge that opens me up...that is the doing of the Divine and not an earthly tool....just as faith must be. you asked: " what if it is not possible to use the > thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? " We can think ourselves blue in the face, and wind up our hearts to breaking from emotion....that is not the real thing at all. It is our ego at work, not G-d. All the relationship demands is the action of the One...we may not even be interested and still fall off our horse, or be sinful and still be called. WE are not the subject...that is to say our ego is not the subject...We cannot consciously climb to knowledge of the kind I speak of. What we do on our own is totally irrelevant, and if that is not what you read from me, I must be failing in communication.WE cannot even love until first loved....how could we climb our way to heaven in the old fashion symbolism? Some of us yearn, long for or seek....again our ego speaks to us...it cannot answer. In the Old Testament, as we call it, Neither Moses,Abraham, the prophets and others were " seeking G-d " They didn't even want to be disturbed from their usual life...I doubt Jesus was " glad " or " seeking " to go to the cross...he just thought he must do what was asked of Him,it wasn't his idea...but his knowledge of his G-d. " Wait upon the Lord " is written all over the Scriptures, especially the Psalms. Neither faith nor knowledge are tools I fashioned. I am a human being and responded to the grace I was given with a absolute " thank you " neither are they as you say: " so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. " ( Belief as Jung finds,maybe, because it is a conscious decision of the ego....knowledge is NOT.) Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > >> >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student > of theology, and religions that no amount of information can > ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I > came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. >> >> So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is > our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. >> I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. >> >> >> Dear Toni, >> >> What you wrote required and produced much thought. >> >> Greg > > Dear Toni, > I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief and > even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to connect > with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. > What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to use the > thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? > What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to awaken > the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not need > nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is > spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and other > seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might > never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. > Mmmm... > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Dear Sam, Unfortunately I totally reject what I understand that saying ( "Work like it all depends on you, pray like it all depends on God.") To even think, feel that everything depends on me leads to a huge ego...and willful behavior. Perhaps beginning with prayer . It is not the WORK that is important, but to do the will of G-d. Nothing we do is that important that all we need is G-d's belated approval. Sorry Sam ,that is a bugaboo of mine, and purely my opinion. As for the fertile ground...would I dare to disagree with Jesus? You see we do not know which ground is fertile...neither our own or another's. Was fertile ground when he was knocked of his horse, so to speak? We simply cannot judge ourselves...wouldn't we all love to be "fertile" rather than "barren"? I just cannot personally accept that this is all a "crap shoot" It takes root or it doesn't, ho hum, not that that is what you were saying. My personal faith demands that all the universe is fertile ground at some point. There nothing outside G-d, and G-d is Being. This is not nitpicking to my mind but you may think it so. Forgive me, but what I wrote is important to my understanding. ( I have heard so many good, religious people use the phrase above, but it is always their own project they want G-d to bless. They seldom wait for the call. Discernment is sadly lacking even among those of good-will. ;" Unless the Lord build the house, the builders build in vain" Can't remember chapter or verse.But it speaks to me. G-d's gift will be accepted by all his creation...doesn't Teihard call it the "Omega point?" Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student of theology, and religions that no amount of information can ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. > > So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. > I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. > > > Dear Toni, > > What you wrote required and produced much thought. > > Greg Dear Toni, I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief and even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to connect with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to use the thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to awaken the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not need nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and other seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. Mmmm... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Don't want to be hard to get along to, but doesn't the farmer go out to see how his crop is doing and maybe watch the sky for rain? Then he feels a gratefulness that cannot be denied. The lame man went off, never came back to say thanks. To me personally that is the second most important act I do....first adore and worship, then thank....But I am sure you all meant that as well. Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > > > > > >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a student > of theology, and religions that no amount of information can > ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from wherever I > came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. > > > > So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it is > our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. > > I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. > > > > > > Dear Toni, > > > > What you wrote required and produced much thought. > > > > Greg > > Dear Toni, > I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief and > even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to connect > with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. > What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to use the > thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or connect? > What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to awaken > the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not need > nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is > spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and other > seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might > never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally irrelevant. > Mmmm... > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Re: Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ >Dear Sam, > >Unfortunately I totally reject what I understand that saying ( "Work like it all depends on >you, pray like it all depends on God.") To even think, feel that everything depends on me >leads to a huge ego...and willful behavior. >Perhaps beginning with prayer . It is not the WORK that is important, but to do the will of >G-d. Nothing we do is that important that all we need is G-d's belated approval. >Sorry Sam ,that is a bugaboo of mine, and purely my opinion. Hi Toni, Don't have to say "sorry," 'cause what you believe and accept or reject has nothing to do with what I believe and accept. Your opinion is your opinion as mine is mine and, as one of my sig lines says, "Just because I believe something doesn't mean it's true and just because I don't believe something doesn't mean it's not true." And, as if often the case with you and me, I suspect we don't believe so very differently at all but simply express it differently and with subjective interpretations. F'rinstance, I don't necessarily separate "work" and "prayer." In my POV, my work is my prayer. IOW, everything I do is - or would be if I were better at it - prayer. I don't care if it's doing the dishes or emulating Mother . It's all prayer. So, when I "work like it all depends on God" I'm simply praying. And when I'm praying like it all depends on God, I'm simply praying. I don't separate the two. At least when I'm being conscious about it. >As for the fertile ground...would I dare to disagree with Jesus? >You see we do not know which ground is fertile...neither our own or another's. Was >fertile ground when he was knocked of his horse, so to speak? Well, he might have been. Obviously something was there in some way in order for him to become what he became after being struck down. It might even have been his passionate repression of "Christians" that provided the compost and energy for him to be able to receive the seed of grace in a fertile way. >We simply cannot judge ourselves...wouldn't we all love to be "fertile" rather than >"barren"? I just cannot personally accept that this is all a "crap shoot" It takes root or >it doesn't, ho hum, not that that is what you were saying. Who's talking about judging fertility here? Not me, or at least not my own - or any others', for that matter. Nor was I saying it's a crap shoot even if you interpreted it that way. Just because grace seems to fall, like the rain, on both the just and the unjust doesn't mean that there are not different stages of "preparation" of the ground. I consider praying as a way to prepare the ground. I can see how doubt can be the beginning of preparing the ground. And I believe that the seeds of grace are not necessarily broadcast like seeds in a "crap shoot" sort of way but that not all seeds will immediately be accepted and nurtured. Our egos do tend to want to do things their ways even if the grace is offered and rejected. The offer/seed is not withdrawn but lies fallow until the ego finally says, "OK, not thy will but mine be done," and the seed takes hold. >My personal faith demands that all the universe is fertile ground at some point. There >nothing outside G-d, and G-d is Being. Absolutely. "We are in God and s/he is in us." But it's those egos. They don't always understand that. They may intellectually understand it but they won't *know* it until they say, "I give up." >This is not nitpicking to my mind but you may think it so. Forgive me, but what I wrote is >important to my understanding. No forgiveness necessary. Your understanding is yours and may or may not jive with mine but that doesn't make either - or both - of us wrong. I have no difficulty with differing viewpoints both being right. Also, I don't necessarily believe in an absolute "right," at least not at the level of consciousness we habitually inhabit here. There may be an absolute but it's not something we can expect to understand, with our egos, anyway. The other kind of understanding that surpasses all understanding is not an easy thing to convey. >( I have heard so many good, religious people use the phrase above, but it is always their >own project they want G-d to bless. They seldom wait for the call. Discernment is sadly >lacking even among those of good-will. >;" Unless the Lord build the house, the builders build in vain" >Can't remember chapter or verse.But it speaks to me. I can't quite understand your reference here. To me the phrase I quoted simply indicates an acceptance of what is. It doesn't refer to anything about a project that they want blessed. OTOH, I *can* see that attitude in saying something like, "Well, it's God's will" when something difficult happens. How many times have you heard anyone say, "Well, it's God's will" when something good happens? >G-d's gift will be accepted by all his creation...doesn't Teihard call it the "Omega point?" No argument there but if all ground were at the same time equally fertile to accept the gift when presented wouldn't it have been accepted by everyone by now? It's offered freely as I understand it, without any restrictions. If the ground were equally fertile in all instances it seems to me that it would have been equally accepted by all. Blissings, Sam Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Re: Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ >Don't want to be hard to get along to, but doesn't the farmer go out to see how his crop is >doing and maybe watch the sky for rain? Then he feels a gratefulness that cannot be denied. Seems to me I addressed this: The seed falls, it sprouts, and except for a bit of weeding and things now and again, that's about all we have control over. After that it's essentially wait and go with the flow. Different words but same idea. Just didn't think I needed to spell it out. See? We agree. *S* >The lame man went off, never came back to say thanks. To me personally that is the second >most important act I do....first adore and worship, then thank....But I am sure you all >meant that as well. Well, sort of but not exactly. I express gratitude first, which is a part of my adoration and worship, and then accept what comes. "Not my will, but thine... ." Blissings, Sam Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Whoops! Typo: "work like it all depends on God" should read, of course, "work like it all depends on me." Interesting typo, doncha think? *S* Blissings, Sam Re: Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ >Dear Sam, > >Unfortunately I totally reject what I understand that saying ( "Work like it all depends on >you, pray like it all depends on God.") To even think, feel that everything depends on me >leads to a huge ego...and willful behavior. >Perhaps beginning with prayer . It is not the WORK that is important, but to do the will of >G-d. Nothing we do is that important that all we need is G-d's belated approval. >Sorry Sam ,that is a bugaboo of mine, and purely my opinion. Hi Toni, Don't have to say "sorry," 'cause what you believe and accept or reject has nothing to do with what I believe and accept. Your opinion is your opinion as mine is mine and, as one of my sig lines says, "Just because I believe something doesn't mean it's true and just because I don't believe something doesn't mean it's not true." And, as if often the case with you and me, I suspect we don't believe so very differently at all but simply express it differently and with subjective interpretations. F'rinstance, I don't necessarily separate "work" and "prayer." In my POV, my work is my prayer. IOW, everything I do is - or would be if I were better at it - prayer. I don't care if it's doing the dishes or emulating Mother . It's all prayer. So, when I "work like it all depends on God" I'm simply praying. And when I'm praying like it all depends on God, I'm simply praying. I don't separate the two. At least when I'm being conscious about it. >As for the fertile ground...would I dare to disagree with Jesus? >You see we do not know which ground is fertile...neither our own or another's. Was >fertile ground when he was knocked of his horse, so to speak? Well, he might have been. Obviously something was there in some way in order for him to become what he became after being struck down. It might even have been his passionate repression of "Christians" that provided the compost and energy for him to be able to receive the seed of grace in a fertile way. >We simply cannot judge ourselves...wouldn't we all love to be "fertile" rather than >"barren"? I just cannot personally accept that this is all a "crap shoot" It takes root or >it doesn't, ho hum, not that that is what you were saying. Who's talking about judging fertility here? Not me, or at least not my own - or any others', for that matter. Nor was I saying it's a crap shoot even if you interpreted it that way. Just because grace seems to fall, like the rain, on both the just and the unjust doesn't mean that there are not different stages of "preparation" of the ground. I consider praying as a way to prepare the ground. I can see how doubt can be the beginning of preparing the ground. And I believe that the seeds of grace are not necessarily broadcast like seeds in a "crap shoot" sort of way but that not all seeds will immediately be accepted and nurtured. Our egos do tend to want to do things their ways even if the grace is offered and rejected. The offer/seed is not withdrawn but lies fallow until the ego finally says, "OK, not thy will but mine be done," and the seed takes hold. >My personal faith demands that all the universe is fertile ground at some point. There >nothing outside G-d, and G-d is Being. Absolutely. "We are in God and s/he is in us." But it's those egos. They don't always understand that. They may intellectually understand it but they won't *know* it until they say, "I give up." >This is not nitpicking to my mind but you may think it so. Forgive me, but what I wrote is >important to my understanding. No forgiveness necessary. Your understanding is yours and may or may not jive with mine but that doesn't make either - or both - of us wrong. I have no difficulty with differing viewpoints both being right. Also, I don't necessarily believe in an absolute "right," at least not at the level of consciousness we habitually inhabit here. There may be an absolute but it's not something we can expect to understand, with our egos, anyway. The other kind of understanding that surpasses all understanding is not an easy thing to convey. >( I have heard so many good, religious people use the phrase above, but it is always their >own project they want G-d to bless. They seldom wait for the call. Discernment is sadly >lacking even among those of good-will. >;" Unless the Lord build the house, the builders build in vain" >Can't remember chapter or verse.But it speaks to me. I can't quite understand your reference here. To me the phrase I quoted simply indicates an acceptance of what is. It doesn't refer to anything about a project that they want blessed. OTOH, I *can* see that attitude in saying something like, "Well, it's God's will" when something difficult happens. How many times have you heard anyone say, "Well, it's God's will" when something good happens? >G-d's gift will be accepted by all his creation...doesn't Teihard call it the "Omega point?" No argument there but if all ground were at the same time equally fertile to accept the gift when presented wouldn't it have been accepted by everyone by now? It's offered freely as I understand it, without any restrictions. If the ground were equally fertile in all instances it seems to me that it would have been equally accepted by all. Blissings, Sam Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Ummm, what am I missing here in all these rehashed posts? The Mutt-led Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Dear , I do not want to improve on your definition of belief. As I said, it is conscious...maybe semi-conscious, thinking is involved or superstition. I meant it as a non starter when i used my understanding of belief. I certainly do not have ant spiritual beliefs left , even the many I had before, but i know I have experience4d the Spirit.. I know what I now know...the rest is suposition. I would certainly not fight anyone about any of my beliefs. I do not consider them my truth either. My whole point was, that a belief is accepting the word or understanding of someone else as one's own. I believe that man has been to the moon. I have not experienced it except through someoneelse's experience which they told me/us. I would not go to my death swearing it to be ultimate Truth, although I am willing to accept the evidence intellectually. Religiously, the Creed say: " I believe in G-d " why, ? because I was taught to, because it is intellectually sensible to agree to the myth of our culture, and because it pleases me.And because i recognize some truth in it. It is a statement as I would like to see China because I heard so much about it, and read so much. I believe there is a China. Do I know it...well no, I accept the experiences of millions of other people. Do I believe in angels? I don't know. I have never seen one myself, but all my life I have been told they exist. They probably do...but I do not know it, since I cannot say definitely I ever experienced one. OK, so I agree with you. It is belief, and belief that one holds the Truth that causes wars,killings, torture and rage. I know from personal experience that Something Exists, there is Being, and there is Love because I have felt it and been changed by it. I know it to some extent only....that which i EXPERIENCED. I have felt it so definitely that I cannot deny it, or think " I imagined it " any more than Jung could. Do I know G-d? No one can do that I think as long as he is human. But we can know he/she/it exist. I know love...at least a part for the same reason. We know in our souls what has happened to us. I know I have been changed in ways i could not change myself. So, I agree with you. belief is a result of thinking, logically or not. Thinking is a function of the ego. I do not " believe. " That was my whole point. I cannot find G-d, Truth, Holiness by belief in it..by assuming someone else's faith or experience. faith has nothing to do with " information " if information comes from thinking. I suppose if you had a vision that might to be " information " , but not from thinking, but personal experience. One cannot think oneself into " knowledge " nor make it happen. It comes on its own in G-d's good time. And one waits...it will come. I have faith that " Once to every man and nation comes the moment to decide " as the hymn says. It seems we agree. Toni Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ > >> > >> >Sorry, I get carried away. I do know from experience. as a >> student >> > > of theology, and religions that no amount of information can >> > > ultimately satisfy my longing, my desire to go home from > wherever >> I >> > > came.....I see it as a return to the All the One. >> > >> >> > >> So, struggle we must with faith, belief, loyalty, truth,but it > is >> > > our heart which we need in those pursuits, nit endless thinking. >> > >> I do get carried away...sorry for the length of this post. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Dear Toni, >> > >> >> > >> What you wrote required and produced much thought. >> > >> >> > >> Greg >> > > >> > > Dear Toni, >> > > I guess I am comming away from the seeking bit vis with belief >> and >> > > even 'heart' as I now conclude that Grace is needed even to >> connect >> > > with the Great Life Force or God or whateveryouwanttocallit. >> > > What if.... I am left with ... what if it is not possible to > use >> the >> > > thinking and feelings to find ones way back or return or > connect? >> > > What if... one has to be 'given' or 'graced' or shown how to >> awaken >> > > the other than feelings and thinking- the deep knowing does not >> need >> > > nor depend upon these tools of this world- but such knowing is >> > > spontanious and 'given' So I find I am falling from this and > other >> > > seekings and falling back on the Patient wainting for what might >> > > never happen.... so Belief and or vis Gnosis is totally >> irrelevant. >> > > Mmmm... >> > > . >> > >>Dear Dear Sam, > Your words could be mine back there- Thankfulness is my cornerstone > and what if ... what if... we could eventually... and even then only > with Grace.... what if the Self could LOVE YOUR Maker more than Your > Self??? Ha! Sure...! > The deep love in worship is indeed a gift .. so I guess its all the > Gardeners hand anyway. > F. > > > > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings > may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Dear Mutt, Maybe just my joy..( rehashed posts of mine).in answer to your question. My way of saying Thank You again and again to All That IS. ( It is also my way of witnessing....and agreeing with Jung) Toni inal Message ----- From: Mrmailmut@... To: JUNG-FIRE Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ Ummm, what am I missing here in all these rehashed posts? The Mutt-led Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Dear Toni and Sam (for that matter)what the uncertainty of having to wait upon that which might never happen does is also to be found in the 'power of uncertainty'and in a perverse way in the power of knowing... that there is no way of knowing other than when it is given to know in due measure and metered to suit the individual's ability to cope... with whateverisgiven...etc,.To know one cannot know unless it is given to know is both bepressing on one level, frustrating as hell on another, and comforting somehow too. It almost allows complacency and utter dispare- what's the point, just BE! Then again such a stance, such an acceptance, such an understanding produces a freedom that requires the use of ones deep self - kind of application of ones inner talent to emerge. As there is nothing stopping me/one/you from doing that which is essentially onself.But sure! Good night to ye fellow travellers. F. Hi Jung-Fire folks on this topic so far,, The gist of the rehashed posts are starting to seep into my much overworked and Mutt-led mind now. And it seems to coincide well with Sam's Incompetency post topic as well. Much as Feeling led person's deplore the function of Logic at times, it does have its place in the overall scheme of humanity, eh? I have to rely on some of the tried and tested sayings of G I Gurdjieff on this matter when it comes to dealing and sorting out ambiguous situations, decisions, etc. It boils down to only four possible outcomes. Doing the right thing, for the right reason,,(very rare one that),,Doing the same for the wrong reason, (more oftener is the case),,Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons,,(getting on more commoner ground now),,and of course doing the wrong thing, for the wrong reason. (Let's let Jerry Springer expand on this one OK? LOL!) So I've just got to make it through tomorrow before heading to the coast for a week of doing some of all of the above on vacation, and I hope to get a large load of fish to last till Spring as well. Wish me luck now,,! Cheers, The Mutt,,keeping it "REEL",,Zzzzzz, oh,,I think I got another bite on my line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dear Mutt, Thanks for your post. I usually have to leave out the one thing one must do..in one way or another, because then everyone will groan once again. According to the masters, here and far, early and late, and in agreement with on the subject....it is necessary to "give, not less than everything" If one can bear the leap into the unknown that that requires and a knowledge that it is the only way.... ( some people call this second birth. baptism in the spirit, rebirth, and all sorts of other names in other cultures. Without submitting to that which requires a lot of courage, what happens is as you write. You end up having to try it yourself...this isn't logical. the whole idea isn't logical...who would jump off a bridge only hoping that he would be caught? To surrender, to submit to that which we consider a "higher being" is the basis for more really Real. Noone nowadays of a type like most of us here would want to take the chance of being laughed off the list...We intellectuals always depend most on what we consider our "pride and joy" our rational thinking. You ask "what's the point"; "To know one cannot know unless it is given to know is both bepressing on one level, frustrating as hell on another, and comforting somehow too. It almost allows complacency and utter dispare- what's the point, just BE!" Its a chance 'one " must take to be an utter fool and give everything...oneself, ones rationality, ones talents, one's vocation, one's relationships...in fact everything for that pearl of great price maybe that is grace???) We cannot produce freedom ourselves. As long as we have choices we are not really free. It is after commitment that the Universe suddenly opens up and we dance in pure freedom and joy. Its not a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" "grit your teeth sort of thing" It means giving up power and no one in their right mind wants to do that,right? says, and Jung says something like it when discussing his faith, the twice born cannot be understood by the once born...they simply see reality differently and therefore live differently.. So " once to every man and nation comes the moment to decide..... In my case with much fear and trembling, and I imagine everyone who considers this sits down and considers the bill coming due. The cost. No one ever said that we must not use our thinking ability to make decisions...but not just our rational side. I agree with this: " have to rely on some of the tried and tested sayings of G I Gurdjieff on this matter when it comes to dealing and sorting out ambiguous situations, decisions, etc. It boils down to only four possible outcomes. Doing the right thing, for the right reason,,(very rare one that),,Doing the same for the wrong reason, (more oftener is the case),,Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons,,(getting on more commoner ground now),,and of course doing the wrong thing, for the wrong reason. Doing the right thing for the right reason is not entirely a matter of logic, or so I think. No more from me, enjoy your vacation. Just being....which I strongly support is a very hard attempt at life without faith in something outside oneself, since we have so little control of most events. In the end I think the need power, willfulness and fear take their toll on many who refuse the one thing they desire above everything....." I think therefore I am" just doesn't do it, in my book. Maybe, I love, therefore I am????...nothing rational about love in my experience at least. Now, to be honest, I think you long ago decided all this and know it well...you must just want to tweak a little? So, I am cooperating although I know you know all this well. Toni Re: Re: Belief vs Gnosis+ Dear Toni and Sam (for that matter)what the uncertainty of having to wait upon that which might never happen does is also to be found in the 'power of uncertainty'and in a perverse way in the power of knowing... that there is no way of knowing other than when it is given to know in due measure and metered to suit the individual's ability to cope... with whateverisgiven...etc,.To know one cannot know unless it is given to know is both bepressing on one level, frustrating as hell on another, and comforting somehow too. It almost allows complacency and utter dispare- what's the point, just BE! Then again such a stance, such an acceptance, such an understanding produces a freedom that requires the use of ones deep self - kind of application of ones inner talent to emerge. As there is nothing stopping me/one/you from doing that which is essentially onself.But sure! Good night to ye fellow travellers. F. Hi Jung-Fire folks on this topic so far,, The gist of the rehashed posts are starting to seep into my much overworked and Mutt-led mind now. And it seems to coincide well with Sam's Incompetency post topic as well. Much as Feeling led person's deplore the function of Logic at times, it does have its place in the overall scheme of humanity, eh? I have to rely on some of the tried and tested sayings of G I Gurdjieff on this matter when it comes to dealing and sorting out ambiguous situations, decisions, etc. It boils down to only four possible outcomes. Doing the right thing, for the right reason,,(very rare one that),,Doing the same for the wrong reason, (more oftener is the case),,Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons,,(getting on more commoner ground now),,and of course doing the wrong thing, for the wrong reason. (Let's let Jerry Springer expand on this one OK? LOL!) So I've just got to make it through tomorrow before heading to the coast for a week of doing some of all of the above on vacation, and I hope to get a large load of fish to last till Spring as well. Wish me luck now,,! Cheers, The Mutt,,keeping it "REEL",,Zzzzzz, oh,,I think I got another bite on my line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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