Response to 'an Alternative Perspective'

[Guest guest]

Is this Dr. Ross for real? Any way to find out? He's clearly out of his

mind, smoking crack....and has had zero experience dealing with toxic illness.

I hate to wish anything bad on anyone, but I can't help wonder if he'd change

his tune if this happened to him or any members of his family. One can only

hope....

Lusted

Southern California

[Guest guest]

This is the only place i could find on www.google.com that mentioned this name is this the professional you were referring to?

Répertoire Internet SST du CCHST - Sécurité en général

.... to the evaluation of Injured Workers in California". It is hosted by Alan B. Ross

MD Features include links to Dr. Ross' Internet-based BBS and a "message ... www.cchst.ca/resources/SAFETYGE.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

JR

[Guest guest]

How about giving us some citations from peer-reviewed,

double-blind

placebo controlled replicable large-scale randomized

studies carried out

by provably independent researchers that show the

benign nature of these

molds?

A hint: you won't find any.

How about you finding me the same quality of studies

that prove that molds cause the planoply of diseases

claimed on this list. I'm not saying that Molds under

certain circumstances will not cause illness. I'm

saying that the whole thing is being blown out of

proportion to what it really is.

If you knew anything about scientific literature you

would know that the chances of getting a " no

difference " article published is ten to one. It's much

harder to: 1. fund 2.publish

What you will find in the literature is case reports,

cross sectional studies and a number of epidemilogical

investigations in certain buildings (EPA building for

instance).

Alan B. Ross, M.D.

mailto:compchat@...

http://compchat.com/ball.htm

Fastpitch Forum

" We are Microsoft. Resistance Is Futile.

You Will Be assimilated "

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Alan Ross wrote:

> If you knew anything about scientific literature you

> would know that the chances of getting a " no

> difference " article published is ten to one. It's much

> harder to: 1. fund 2.publish

ROTFLOL! If I knew anything about scientific literature? Please, respect

netiquette and don't make unfounded assumptions about the background and

expertise of those who respectfully disagree with your statements. As a

researcher who is a member of the scientific research committee for one

research foundation (the other four members are from Hopkins,

Scripps, Northwestern, and UCLA), a former staff member in two Big Ten

Universities prior to going into private industry, and and someone who has

been used as a consulting resource by scientists, MDs and researchers

within and outside the USA, I think I've got a pretty good grasp of

scientific literature - across several fields I might add. <G>

What's your background, other than as a private practice MD? Please don't

take this request as confrontational - I am simply asking, as other list

members have, that you share your expertise as this is a forum intended

for providing *assistance* to individuals dealing with sick building

problems.

Please also note that I didn't make any claims that there WERE studies

showing that every symptom on this list was mold related. I asked simply

for you to back up *your* position. Can you? It would be most helpful

to all of us here if you can provide citations to those studies. :-)

I suspect that the answer is there aren't any such studies - *we don't

know* the breadth and depth of problems caused by various mold exposures.

However, scientific study starts with case reports and anecdotal evidence.

These, too, are valid data, as I am sure you would agree.

You pointed out in a second post that " However I think you will find, in

medicine, it is best to have a healthy skepticism about diagnosing a

disease that has no specific test. "

Indeed. The problem is that medicine is extraordinarily limited in what

it is capable of testing. The flaw is not in the patient - it is in the

methodology that says, (often with much unfortunate hubris) - that if it

can't be verified by a laboratory test (and lab tests, btw, are designed

to be used to verify diagnoses - not find them) it doesn't exist. Since

you mentioned sensitivity and specificity, I'll also point out that both

are dependent on the laboratory involved, the training of the personnel

using the test - and of course when someone tells you that a diagnostic

test, done properly, is 99% accurate (meaning that both the specificity

and the sensitivity = 99%), the actual 'accuracy' of the test will in fact

really depend on how common the disease you are testing for is in the

population you are testing. So - unless we have mold toxicity widespread

in the population - any test is going to itself be subject to errors, and

large ones. The same is true for tests for chemical injury, fibromyalgia

and other disorders.

The one thing I hear over and over again from sick individuals (regardless

of the area of illness) is: " Why can't doctor's say 'I don't know'

instead of telling me my illness is psychosomatic or all in my head? "

Good question. " I don't know " is usually the starting point for quality

scientific research. But MDs aren't scientists - they're medical doctors,

with different training and background than that learned for a research

scientist. Perhaps we're all caught in a situation that is a lose-lose

because we put the onus on MDs to find answers that they aren't equipped

to ascertain, creating frustation for everyone involved.

Hard to tell. But the end result is the patients suffer.

Judy Stouffer, B.S., M.S., SFO

Tau Research Associates

mjstouff@...

[Guest guest]

Is this the way you treat people who disagree with you...call them crack heads. I feel sorry for you because clearly you have allowed your disease to take over your life. I have seen cancer patients with better attitudes.

Is this Dr. Ross for real? Any way to find out? He's clearly out of his mind, smoking crack....and has had zero experience dealing with toxic illness. I hate to wish anything bad on anyone, but I can't help wonder if he'd change his tune if this happened to him or any members of his family. One can only hope.... Lusted Southern California Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

" Alan Ross " <compchat@...> wrote:

" Some of you people have sent me truly ugly responses. I am beginning to

believe that we live in Nazi Germany. Disagree with me and off you go to the

gas chamber. Well thanks but no thanks.

Obviously you have a political/financial agenda which you do not wish

challenged. I have to keep reminding myself that there are millions and

millions of dollars invested in the mold issue: Doctors, attorneys,

advocates, industrial hygenists, labs, HVAC specialists and claimants. Thus

a rational and polite dialogue with you is not possible. "

Alan, I hate to be personal, but having spent several years on the

Occ-Med-Env list with you listening to your comments, I think I know a

little bit about you and your style. You like to come on gang busters as if

you are the final word in scientific methodology and as if you are sincerely

concerned and want to understand this enigma - but the truth is, you use

your professional credentials as a shield. You hide behind them as if they

have some intrinsic value while you bait and goad people into arguing with

you. You don't really want to have a sincere discussion - no offense -

because to do so would mean you have to listen to the other side and you

really don't want to do that. You want to express your opinions and deny

others the right to express theirs. Perhaps you are afraid to be

vulnerable - to say " I don't know " when you don't. Perhaps for you it's a

sign of weakness. Perhaps you have tried so hard to remain emotionally

detached that you've disengaged from the reality that each and every person

has value and dignity and should be treasured.

The problem is - you always jump right in, fists flailing without thinking

and then, pretend to act surprised when people respond to your

insensitivity - finally portraying yourself as the offended party when

people respond in kind. If you were truly interested in any kind of

" rational and polite dialogue " you would take the time to get the know the

people on this list and what they have been through before launching an

attack on them. People have started listening to their own bodies and

making their own decisions about their medical choices and most of the time,

I think we know a whole lot more about ourselves than anyone else. The

article written by the defense firm was discussed here month's ago, when one

of the writers wanted to share it with us. It is nothing new. After all,

people are still quoting Gots if they think anyone will listen. I

think she was mostly disappointed that people weren't impressed with the

same old defense protestations repackaged under a different title. You see,

we refuse to be told that we are ill from stress or that it's all in our

heads because we know better and we refuse to be victims anymore.

For all your stated credentials, I don't think you have ever really digested

all the material out there on immune system problems as a result of toxic

molds. And as long as you aren't treating people or diagnosing them when

they've been exposed - there is no need for you to do so. You see, we have

18 physicians on this list - everything from Harvard educated board

certified environmental specialists to pulmonary specialists to an

oncologist. Mostly they simply listen because they want to learn about this

growing problem. Recently, one physician, an allergist wrote me thanking me

and telling me what an eye opener it was for him to be a member of this

group. For the first time, he said, he is seeing the patterns he's observed

with his patients and it is beginning to make sense to him. Another doctor,

an expert on toxic mold exposure who has written numerous peer-reviewed

papers wrote and said, " you were right - some people never do recover and

may even worsen after they leave the building in which they became ill. " It

has taken him 6 years of careful observation to chronicle what we have

noticed from our group's members. We are beginning to see the role that

mold plays in crashing our immune system and allowing a variety of diseases

and physical symptoms to develop. It is always difficult for someone who

hasn't lived and breathed this for years to understand that mold poisoning

is a common denominator that leads to many health effects.

We have noted hysteria though - you are right about that - but it is not

coming from us but from the same people who have worked so hard to keep

people from getting access to information about the spreading hazard of

mycotoxins. Rather than argue with you about something we know from

experience is real - we need answers about why people with mucor develop

hypercoagulation and why so many people are being exposed to the same three

molds - aspergillus, stachybotrys and penicillum - when one would think

there would be a lot more variation. Is someone dropping this out of

airplanes - or is this a natural occurrence. Perhaps one of the several

mycologists and microbiologists on our group could shed some theories on why

this is happening. I would like to thank you though, for motivating our

group to speak up in their defense and explain what, for some has been a

painful, horrible experience. To care for a wife, husband or child with

irreversible neurological damage and know that you have forever lost the

people they were - I can't even begin to imagine the horror of that. Nor

can most people imagine what it's like to bury one, two, then three or more

of your co-workers and wonder if you'll be next. While several of our

members are currently battling cancer or crippling lung disease - it seems

particularly cruel to ascribe blame or say we have a political/financial

agenda because there are " millions and millions of dollars invested in the

mold issue. " You forget - we were here looking for answers long before

there was a financial incentive to be here and will probably be here long

after - until people are aware of the problem and are educated on how to

protect their families and their property. But if you truly wanted to

understand this problem - you would already know that. You would also know

that despite facing poverty, homelessness and disability, it never ceases to

amaze me how wonderful and loving the human spirit can be as I see our

members day after day reach out to help others in need. The love and

compassion I've been a part of on this group refreshes me and reminds me

what we can be - when we are at out best.

Barbara