Guest guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Odd how the motifs of myths remain the same from one civilization to another, from one culture to another. What some call universal truth? It is so hard to break the cycle of victim becoming victimizer and victimizer becoming victim. It's a shame we can't remember the previous cycle. Although I suspect it might make us more intent on "getting even." Better to just not to feel the need to. I have found sometimes not feeling the need to "get even" disconnects everyone else from the need to "get even." No one ever really gets even. They just get odd. The shadow dances tend to come to an end when we forgive ourselves as well as everyone else. "All you need is love." All everyone else needs as well. Our collective unconscious was trying to tell us something when "we" manifested the Beatles. "I am you and you are me...." Very silly old women are usually very wise old women. Subject: BLACK/WHITETo: JUNG-FIRE , Negative-Capability Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 1:06 PM In the Welsh Mabinogion epic there is the mysterious episode of the hero Peredur. He meets a lovely maiden in a wood n she gives him a stone [Philosopher' s?] and then: And he came towards a valley, through which ran a river; and the borders of the valley were wooded, and on each side of the river were level meadows. And on one side of the river he saw a flock of white sheep, and on the other side a flock of black sheep. And whenever one of the white sheep bleated one of the black sheep would cross over and become white; and when one of the black sheep bleated one of the white sheep would cross over and become black. And he came towards a valley, through which ran a river; and the borders of the valley were wooded, and on each side of the river were level meadows. And on one side of the river he saw a flock of white sheep, and on the other side a flock of black sheep. And whenever one of the white sheep bleated one of the black sheep would cross over and become white; and when one of the black sheep bleated one of the white sheep would cross over and become black. ------------ --------- Not unlike Eshu motif n lovely 'Ebony n Ivory' song. It seems as if every Israeli needs to imagine truly what it is like to be a Palestinian and every Palestinian needs to spend the same length of time imagining what it is like to be an Israeli! I can remember my son ,age 9, coming home from school troubled by the news of Palestinian refugees. He is now 61 n nothing has changed! And then u think of the centuries of suffering of the Jews in the Diaspora.... ....... Dr Stan Grof interrogated patients in Prague in the 40's/50's using then legal LSD to regress them n found several cases where an A persecuted a B, he was born in another life a B to suffer at the hands of the A's. As Scripture has it "He who kills by the sword will die by the sword." And was it the Roman Cincinnatus who when he came back from governing turned his weapons into a ploughshare? At 86 am getting a mite rusty....... ------------ -- I used the analogy of shoelaces w/kids who got mad at each other. I made them take off a shoe and had the laces go up the sides instead of crossing over. The shoes fell off! So when Obama suggests a dialogue w/an enemy, it's like crossing the laces, or the black/white sheep. Love Very Silly Old Woman ao A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Alice: "The shadow dances tend to come to an end when we forgiveourselves as well as everyone else. "All you need is love." Alleveryone else needs as well. "This sounds like you, and you I would never ask if you reallyunderstood that...you do...but we sure do bat that word around a lotwithout really thinking what we demand of ourselves or others. I confess. Those are my words. And am so complimented that someone mistook them for Alice's words. Although I'm not sure Alice is complimented! Love does not demand. It just allows. When we allow it to. Too often, we don't allow it to. Simply because we are, as you point out, merely batting it around. Takes awhile to learn about love. Takes awhile to figure it out. To figure out that "getting even" only continues the "getting even" and blocks the love. And what it allows. Like Rod McKuen said, Love at best is giving what you need to get. Somehow I don't believe the Israelis or the Palestinians feel they need to blow themselves up. And yet there they are. Blowing themselves up. Tit for tat. The shadow dance. Reality is no one really loves the Israelis or the Palestinians. All they have is each other. Maybe when they realize that peace will finally come to Israel and Palestine. Either as one nation or two. One nation of course would end quite a bit in the Mideast. It would signal the Jews and Muslims and Christians are one. They have the same god. Not sure if they have figured that out yet. Doesn't seem that they have. But then we all have the same god. We just haven't figured that out. We are too busy making god in our image believing that "our" god is the "true" god. I suspect god is suffering from multi-personality disorder at this point. Subject: Re: BLACK/WHITETo: JUNG-FIRE Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 1:11 PM I am not sure who wrote this since I am not used to seeing messages onYahoo instead of my own computer so it will take me a while to find myway around.I must be not seeing something, or are there 2 different threads here?Are we discussing Israel, or are we talking about the presentconflict.??? Or are we dying to be on the side of the angels and demanall humanity stope its violence now?This copied from a recent post:"It is so hard to break the cycle of victim becoming victimizer andvictimizer becoming victim. It's a shame we can't remember the previouscycle. Although I suspect it might make us more intent on "gettingeven." Better to just not to feel the need to. I have found sometimesnot feeling the need to "get even" disconnects everyone else from theneed to "get even." No one ever really gets even. They just get odd.."Are we talking about an "abstract" person? Isreal,( not hamas surely)orthose 2 of us who see a tragedy where the "acted upon "is getting allthe criticism?I am not into victime hood...I doubt many Jews are. We live in the 21stcentury and have long memories, that is true, but we are speaking ofhere and now facts...the shelling from Hamas first.Once we get thatstraight we may all mourn for both sides and deparately hope for asolution.Alice: "The shadow dances tend to come to an end when we forgiveourselves as well as everyone else. "All you need is love." Alleveryone else needs as well. "This sounds like you, and you I would never ask if you reallyunderstood that...you do...but we sure do bat that word around a lotwithout really thinking what we demand of ourselves or others.But whoever quoted you I say: I couldn't agree more. To whom are youspeaking? The families of those just killed? Hamas? israel or some of ushere..., for example and those who refuse to say "a pox on both yourhouses"?I have no one to forgive. I am not in danger, and only those affectedmay truly forgive. I have felt all along that because I can see theIsrael side as the "acted upon," I am somehow in need of psychologicalhelp from new people here, or spiritual advice from some long timefriends.I deserve none of these, especially from people who do not know a littleabout "where I am" or even who I am. No, Alice I don't mean you at all.But, we seem to confuse what I am talking about. I condemn violence ,but allow human nature to react to the human act of self preservation.My goodnss ,all the chatter about how evil war is? Whose iscontradicting? Not fa or me for example.Are we war mongers becausewe do not agree to high-sounding rhetoric about violence and whatever. Iwager we agree about love too.Does that help the discussion on why here we blame the Israelis and notHamas for just about everything? There is no hint ofanti-Israelism? ?????I am speaking about people who just want conflict over without anythingsettled who do not realize that solves nothing but a brief pause, or dothey not understand the idea that millions will resist the existence ofisrael?As it is, for days I have been near tears because I feel an overwhelmingwave of sweet sayings, noble truths, and nothing at all about what isactually to be decided.That and the fact I am obviously wrong. I amstill the same person who has been on this list for 11 years...did Isuddenly become a war monger, an unforgiving wretch with terriblereplays of memories over 70 years old.? Do I need to be preached at (ok, so I did do that , the old me, but no more.)Don't tell me this isn't personal. It is to my way of thinking because Iam only asking for people here to be objective of what is at stake...theexistence of Isreal, maybe not today or tomorrow, but this is what thisis all about. That and the morality of striking back when one has beenattacked for those who cannot be saintly enough to be be pacifists.So, I have had my say, for what it is worth. No more telling me mythsthat have nothing to do with what I am. Opposites, yes, I read Jung, andlove yes.Do I really have to defend myself.?I have nothing butadmiration for those who want to be peacemakers, or those who sit backand tell me this isn't reality( I perhaps agree, but cannot get farenough back on this issue) But spare me admonitions. If I needpsychological help I know whom to see, if I need spiritual help, I knowto Whom to go.All I asked was that the bigger picture was investigatedToni>> Subject: BLACK/WHITE> To: JUNG-FIRE@yahoogrou ps.com, Negative-Capability @yahoogroups. com> Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 1:06 PM>>>>>>>> In the Welsh Mabinogion epic there is the mysterious episode of thehero Peredur. He meets a lovely maiden in a wood n she gives him a stone[Philosopher' s?] and then:>>> And he came towards a valley, through which ran a river; and theborders of the valley were wooded, and on each side of the river werelevel meadows. And on one side of the river he saw a flock of whitesheep, and on the other side a flock of black sheep. And whenever one ofthe white sheep bleated one of the black sheep would cross over andbecome white; and when one of the black sheep bleated one of the whitesheep would cross over and become black. And he came towards a valley,through which ran a river; and the borders of the valley were wooded,and on each side of the river were level meadows. And on one side of theriver he saw a flock of white sheep, and on the other side a flock ofblack sheep. And whenever one of the white sheep bleated one of theblack sheep would cross over and become white; and when one of the blacksheep bleated one of the white sheep would cross over and become black.>> ------------ ---------> Not unlike Eshu motif n lovely 'Ebony n Ivory' song.>> It seems as if every Israeli needs to imagine truly what it is like tobe a Palestinian and every Palestinian needs to spend the same length oftime imagining what it is like to be an Israeli!>> I can remember my son ,age 9, coming home from school troubledby the news of Palestinian refugees. He is now 61 n nothing has changed!And then u think of the centuries of suffering of the Jews in theDiaspora.... .......>> Dr Stan Grof interrogated patients in Prague in the 40's/50's usingthen legal LSD to regress them n found several cases where an Apersecuted a B, he was born in another life a B to suffer at the handsof the A's.>> As Scripture has it "He who kills by the sword will die by the sword."And was it the Roman Cincinnatus who when he came back from governingturned his weapons into a ploughshare? At 86 am getting a miterusty.......>> ------------ --> I used the analogy of shoelaces w/kids who got mad at each other. Imade them take off a shoe and had the laces go up the sides instead ofcrossing over. The shoes fell off! So when Obama suggests a dialoguew/an enemy, it's like crossing the laces, or the black/white sheep.>> Love>> Very Silly Old Woman>> ao>>>>>>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.