Re: Re: and an odd thought..

February 9, 2006

> Dear Toni,

Had a short dream the other night that still leaves me in a quandry..

Went into a household to offer help like I did oft in the past (am an ex Social

Worker).

The family were willing but not appreciative.

I felt like withdrawing my service as it was not appreciated and then thought

(in the

dream) 'Well maybe I should still offer help.'

I wolk up thinking- Do I work to be apprectiated or out of Duty or out of their

need for

what I can offer and if it is not appreciated can I offer what they need?

Mmmm.....

Ideal around healing/helping if willing whatever else prevails...suppose its

like the ten

lepers - only one came back to say thanks.... and still there was nine heald.

Maybe there is a need to have 'BUT ONE' to say thanks?

Any obsevations here Toni.

F.

February 13, 2006

Dear ,

You don't ask simple opinions of others do you?

" Do I work to be appreciated or out of Duty or out of their need for

> what I can offer and if it is not appreciated can I offer what they need?

> Mmmm.....

and

" Ideal around healing/helping if willing whatever else prevails...suppose

its like the ten

> lepers - only one came back to say thanks.... and still there was nine

> heald.

> Maybe there is a need to have 'BUT ONE' to say thanks?

> Any obsevations here Toni. "

Let me start with the latter.

No, I do not think one returning is OK. I don't think G-d is worried about

being thanked. I do think that each human being will only grow to full

stature if he learns not to take things for granted, or as if he had it

coming, or because he was too lazy to go back and thank Jesus.

One of my favorite books is " Gratefulness the Heart of Prayer " by Steindl-

Rast. I am and also have always been more thankful than I can ever say, for

everything the Lord has done and is doing and I cannot say thank you often

enough. Steindl-Rast( I've heard him, spoken to him and read him, I really

like him, He is a monk.) says:

" The greatest gift one can give is thanksgiving. In giving gifts, we give

what we can spare, but in giving thanks we give ourselves " " One who says

'thank you' to another really says " we belong together " Giver and

thanksgiver belong together. The bond that unites them frees them from

alienation. Does our society suffer so much from alienation because we fail

to cultivate gratefulness? "

The problem is that modern man does not want to show he is dependent on

anyone. If I acknowledge the gift, I acknowledge my dependence. I highly

recommend this book.

And that dependence thing also is why so few say thank you to their Lord.

They either think they have it coming , whatever it is, or don't want to

show dependence on religion or G-d. And then there are the forgetful ones,

who neither appreciate the gift, the giver or even themselves.

As for your first dilemma.... Don't we all want to be appreciated? We sure

all want to be loved and admired. That is so human it is everywhere. We are

told : " to give and not to count the cost " but that is very hard to

do...especially if we give from our need and not our superfluity.Duty is

still a big deal for those with Puritan ancestors or those who remember the

Roman of old.Conscience always pulls us onward, but sometimes it pulls the

wrong way.I do not think I do thinks only from duty ( unless it is getting

up at 3 A.M. with a screaming baby) But even then there is more softness

than " duty " implies to me. Certain jobs/vocations come with " duties " and one

becomes a mother because that is what one wants to be regardless of the

cost. One helps a fallen comrade because that is part of what one is, in

war...and in peace, I guess.( Today our next door neighbor and his 4 year

old son cleaned the snow off the driveway and the walkway for us without

ever saying a word. We didn't notice until it was all done...now that is

neighborliness.)

We cannot help or heal everyone. Helen Luke says we have to be asked, or we

presume and intrude. I think of a basket, and put those for whom I feel

responsible in there. Those I always help, pray for, think about and love.

That basket is full. The rest of the world can only get my attention if I

think there is no one else to help. But I don't run after them, and I don't

give away what little I have so my basketful is denied. Donations yes,to the

latter, actual work no, not anymore, just cannot.But anything possible for

the basketful.

We all have certain people in our baskets. Not just family and friends, but

those we are especially drawn to. Those I think are our first priority.

I know about " burn-out " , I know about a houseful of strangers, and I have

learned to be a little more circumspect in giving myself and family away. I

will be good for nothing if I over-reach( which I have done)...not on love,

but in material help or even psychological help. I can't do it all. I have

learned that.

I find the truth is, it is more blessed to receive than to give. Many many

people cannot receive. They feel it makes them small, or beholden, or less,

and being grateful isn't one of their good points. I know people who have

been helped out of danger, and grow to hate the person they are beholden to.

It is smallness of heart, and lack of loving oneself, but it is very

prevalent. I have no use for it. It gives me pleasure to be able to say

thank you, and to be in someone's debt( not financial). It makes them feel

good and it doesn't hurt me.

AS for being appreciated. hell, we do things for our children and loved ones

all the time, and they shrug it off and either expect it or are angered by

it.When they are young or very busy, the 'thank you's are few) Appreciation

has nothing to do with giving, I think. Now if I were to give a painting to

someone and they threw it in the trash, I wouldn't give them another one,

and I'd go get the first one out of the garbage. No sense being silly. Or to

let oneself be taken advantage of, unless one does it consciously...and then

one can be gracious.

So, being " helpful " is walking a tight-rope. Not too much help to be

resented , but just enough of what is necessary. And never, I imagine if it

is unwelcome..and just causes someone to suffer their " indignities " And also

I guess, not to let the right hand know what the left hand is doing....and

that takes some doing. It is a matter of the heard, not the mind for

me...and yes, I have been known to walk where angels fear to tread because I

wasn't sensitive enough.

Toni

Re: Re: and an odd thought..

>> Dear Toni,

>

> Had a short dream the other night that still leaves me in a quandry..

> Went into a household to offer help like I did oft in the past (am an ex

> Social Worker).

> The family were willing but not appreciative.

> I felt like withdrawing my service as it was not appreciated and then

> thought (in the

> dream) 'Well maybe I should still offer help.'

> I wolk up thinking- Do I work to be apprectiated or out of Duty or out of

> their need for

> what I can offer and if it is not appreciated can I offer what they need?

> Mmmm.....

> Ideal around healing/helping if willing whatever else prevails...suppose

> its like the ten

> lepers - only one came back to say thanks.... and still there was nine

> heald.

> Maybe there is a need to have 'BUT ONE' to say thanks?

> Any obsevations here Toni.

>

> F.

February 13, 2006

> Dear ,

>

> You don't ask simple opinions of others do you?

No not opinions Toni, the curse of womanhood- no! rather I wanted to share with you an experience that still bothers me and wondered if you had any reflections upon it as there is substance in the whole giving-recieving and both are utterly different energies and yet one-and-the-same. The lower and upper half of the same circle as it were.

>

> " Do I work to be appreciated or out of Duty or out of their need for >

> what I can offer and if it is not appreciated can I offer what they

> need? > Mmmm..... and " Ideal around healing/helping if willing

> whatever else prevails...suppose its like the ten > lepers - only one

> came back to say thanks.... and still there was nine > heald. > Maybe

> there is a need to have 'BUT ONE' to say thanks? > Any obsevations

> here Toni. "

>

> Let me start with the latter.

> No, I do not think one returning is OK. I don't think G-d is worried

> about being thanked. I do think that each human being will only grow

> to full stature if he learns not to take things for granted, or as if

> he had it coming, or because he was too lazy to go back and thank

> Jesus.

Ok yes I can see what you are getting at here-

but there is a built in assuption that I do not hold - that your choice of response covers all alternatives:

Lazyness I do not feel would have been the main cause of not returning to thank a person for the miraculas cure they had just received. perhaps rather, they were overtaken by their new found health and ran in all directions to 'tell' and broadcast and also to do what they were previously unable to do.

Yes Thankyou for the 'taking things for granted bit.... and personal growth therein of not doing so...

>

> One of my favorite books is " Gratefulness the Heart of Prayer " by

> Steindl- Rast.

I have not read this and may be moved to read same as I have 'recieved' Thankfulness' all the days of my life- as a gift - It leaves me utterly in tears and deeply moved. Interesting what you go on to say Steindl-Rast made of the experience...

I am and also have always been more thankful than I can

> ever say, for everything the Lord has done and is doing and I cannot

> say thank you often enough. Steindl-Rast( I've heard him, spoken to

> him and read him, I really like him, He is a monk.) says:

" The

> greatest gift one can give is thanksgiving. In giving gifts, we give

> what we can spare, but in giving thanks we give ourselves "

Here S-R uses another kindred term of thanksgiving rather than Thankfulness which is what I receive...

" One who

> says 'thank you' to another really says " we belong together "

I can see how it links with my dream concern- appreciation is being thankful for what one has and - being appreciated- is accepting thanks which is of lesser importance- BUT was pointed out in Scripture by those who recored what Christ said.

Giver and thanksgiver belong together.- " OK. I don't think G-d is worried

> about being thanked. " -

I am no longer sure that is the case! 'Being thanked' is a form of worship- maybe a pathetic part of human kinds response to G-d... Maybe it isn't G-d EGO stuff but there is enough Old Testement stuff around G-d being a jealous G-d and needing that thanks!

S-R seems to pre-occupy himself with social bonding via spiritual gift:-

The bond that unites them frees them from

> alienation. Does our society suffer so much from alienation because we

> fail to cultivate gratefulness? "

Wonderful notion to 'cultivate gratefulness' Like spreading peace- but if it cannot root itself in contentment of the individual then it moves on- Maybe the other nine people have not returned yet and have reproduced themselves a billion fold...

>

> The problem is that modern man does not want to show he is dependent

> on anyone. If I acknowledge the gift, I acknowledge my dependence. I

> highly recommend this book.

>

> And that dependence thing also is why so few say thank you to their

> Lord. They either think they have it coming , whatever it is, or don't

> want to show dependence on religion or G-d. And then there are the

> forgetful ones, who neither appreciate the gift, the giver or even

> themselves.

No! Again too simle a conclusion here!!

Dependence is what is derived by you and it seems by S-R too. There maybe a connection between being thankful and being dependent. Too child-like and not enough personalness-

'Were there not ten'? came the reply. Each is both individual and collective in their psyche 'the Collective unconscious'

To assume people 'think they have it coming' does away with personal pain- We all suffer. Suffering has no respect for person or purse- No not good enough!

And as for showing dependence on religon- what has that to do with people- Religion is a system not a person.

The latter I go for though- forgetful ones and those who might not appreciate the gift or even themselves- having worked long enough with the mentally ill to know the double think of lack of self appreciation...

>

> As for your first dilemma.... Don't we all want to be appreciated? We

> sure all want to be loved and admired. That is so human it is

> everywhere.

sadly so yes we do want this and it is a dilemma - thus my dream to you...

We are told : " to give and not to count the cost " but that

> is very hard to do...especially if we give from our need and not our

> superfluity.Duty is still a big deal for those with Puritan ancestors

> or those who remember the Roman of old.Conscience always pulls us

> onward, but sometimes it pulls the wrong way.I do not think I do

> thinks only from duty ( unless it is getting up at 3 A.M. with a

> screaming baby) But even then there is more softness than " duty "

> implies to me. Certain jobs/vocations come with " duties " and one

> becomes a mother because that is what one wants to be regardless of

> the cost. One helps a fallen comrade because that is part of what one

> is, in war...and in peace, I guess.( Today our next door neighbor and

> his 4 year old son cleaned the snow off the driveway and the walkway

> for us without ever saying a word. We didn't notice until it was all

> done...now that is neighborliness.)

>

Agreed here (above) wholeheartedly..

> We cannot help or heal everyone. Helen Luke says we have to be asked,

> or we presume and intrude. I think of a basket, and put those for whom

> I feel responsible in there. Those I always help, pray for, think

> about and love. That basket is full. The rest of the world can only

> get my attention if I think there is no one else to help. But I don't

> run after them, and I don't give away what little I have so my

> basketful is denied. Donations yes,to the latter, actual work no, not

> anymore, just cannot.But anything possible for the basketful.

I like the above analogy - I take the notion of 'I can only heal to the degree I have suffered and not an atom more.' And so this is equally restricting.

>

> We all have certain people in our baskets. Not just family and

> friends, but those we are especially drawn to. Those I think are our

> first priority. I know about " burn-out " , I know about a houseful of

> strangers, and I have learned to be a little more circumspect in

> giving myself and family away. I will be good for nothing if I

> over-reach( which I have done)...not on love, but in material help or

> even psychological help. I can't do it all. I have learned that.

>

Yes I go for the above and been there and done that too...

> I find the truth is, it is more blessed to receive than to give. Many

> many people cannot receive. They feel it makes them small, or

> beholden, or less, and being grateful isn't one of their good points.

Good point here where to receive is 'more blessed! This remains my major point and does not lend itself the the added notion of dependence...on others other than from whom one recieves in the first place.....

> I know people who have been helped out of danger, and grow to hate the

> person they are beholden to. It is smallness of heart, and lack of

> loving oneself, but it is very prevalent. I have no use for it. It

> gives me pleasure to be able to say thank you, and to be in someone's

> debt( not financial). It makes them feel good and it doesn't hurt me.

>

That notion of being in some0nes dept... it sticks with me and as yet still needs some more thought... not happy with it... misses the point and yet highlights my feelings about the complex relationship between giving and receiving...

> AS for being appreciated. hell, we do things for our children and

> loved ones all the time, and they shrug it off and either expect it or

> are angered by it.When they are young or very busy, the 'thank you's

> are few)

Appreciation has nothing to do with giving, I think.

I too would like to think this is true but having given all to my (now) 30 + year old 'children' I am not doing so any more unless, unless etc,...

Abuse lingers around here somewhere- lack of - implies demand- expectation and I wonder in the wisdom of giving when not appreciated- " Were there not TEN? "

Christ was rendered usless as a healer in his own land- Contempt? Lack of appreiation- NO! there is more around this one than is yet apparent... Mmmmmm

Now if I

> were to give a painting to someone and they threw it in the trash, I

> wouldn't give them another one, and I'd go get the first one out of

> the garbage. No sense being silly. Or to let oneself be taken

> advantage of, unless one does it consciously...and then one can be

> gracious.

What about some devine plan here too- the notion that a person was ill all their lives up and untill Christ met them to demonstate the power of G-d but too might such thoughts - justifications - be added later by the fanatic followers?

>

> So, being " helpful " is walking a tight-rope. Not too much help to be

> resented , but just enough of what is necessary. And never, I imagine

> if it is unwelcome..and just causes someone to suffer their

> " indignities " And also I guess, not to let the right hand know what

> the left hand is doing...

left hand right hand- shadow and self-

Just working on a few ideas around the shadow:-

Our Shadows are cast along war zones

into prison cells and across state rostra

in chambers where maids became Madams

into food markets and new fashion outlets

Our shadows kill enemies and win battles

strut the floor serving time and debating

duping hearts and deceiving onlookers.

Making proffets and fulfilling desires.

And alone amid these shadows on the high ground

upon which each Ego stands owning little of it

condemning those furthest away from them

while justifying much and benefiting from it all.

Not letting the right hand know what the left hand has done.

and that takes some doing. It is a matter of

> the heard, not the mind for me...and yes, I have been known to walk

> where angels fear to tread because I wasn't sensitive enough.

>

> Toni

and casting perls amid swine........

Thanks there Toni..

>

> Re: Re: and an odd thought..

>

> >> Dear Toni,

> >

> > Had a short dream the other night that still leaves me in a

> > quandry.. Went into a household to offer help like I did oft in the

> > past (am an ex Social Worker). The family were willing but not

> > appreciative. I felt like withdrawing my service as it was not

> > appreciated and then thought (in the dream) 'Well maybe I should

> > still offer help.' I wolk up thinking- Do I work to be apprectiated

> > or out of Duty or out of their need for what I can offer and if it

> > is not appreciated can I offer what they need? Mmmm..... Ideal

> > around healing/helping if willing whatever else prevails...suppose

> > its like the ten lepers - only one came back to say thanks.... and

> > still there was nine heald. Maybe there is a need to have 'BUT ONE'

> > to say thanks? Any obsevations here Toni.

> >

> > F.

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby

> beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and

> suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

February 14, 2006

Dear ,

I wasn't satisfied after I wrote you yesterday because we were being too rational...or I was.

There is no need in many cases to think at all...the urge is there to give, to help , then. For some deep stuff, I do believe in sitting and counting the cost...I do not want to go into a life I admire without understanding the possible bad with the good.

But mostly, giving and receiving are what love is all about. One simply cannot help it in many cases. I tend to jump first, and sometimes I commit to more than I can do. My thermometer is easy, I sit where that beggar sits and then decide." Different energies" you say? I don't see any different. One receives and one gives..both in love.

In hospitals it is easier, especially as a patient (which i have experience with) to say something loving and caring for other patients, and always for the nursing staff. Not always gifts, but words of thanks and prayer.And those freezing Pakistani's how can one not shudder with them?

Since I do not believe in coincident, I know my life has been saved a number of times when I was younger and still had children at home or as life to began. The thankfulness just tumbles out daily. As it does for everything...but especially life itself. That is indeed enough to make anyone fall on their knees, in my opinion.

The graces which have led me on, especially when I have no idea where I am or where I am going is another big big gift from G-d.It amazes me daily too.

About Jesus healing the men who never came back. God wanting to be thanked???. Again, The writers put that there I think for us to note and remember to thank. Jesus was thanking His Father for the healing.And he felt others should also thank the Father.I doubt he wasted a second on not being thanked himself.

When I was in the healing ministry, people came to be prayed "over" by the laying on of hands (and heart).One of my friend's husband, in a wheel chair since W.W.ll, never would allow anyone to pray over, or for him. I never understood it, and tried so hard not to judge. I knew that he as a Catholic believed in vicarious suffering for others...but I in my practical way always wanted to tell him, that was OK for him, but what about his poor wife who had to 'do" it all for him.

MY biggest, well no, just one of my problems with myself is the urge to tell ...whatever.( as is obvious here) It is also hard for me not to judge in cases like this, but I managed (which surprised me, must have been a dollop of grace:-)

I have also observed that the more one thanks G-d, the more one wants to thank G-d for everything. To me the reaction to a "miracle' is awe as well as thanks. You are kinder to the men who never returned in your questioning statement.

AS far as G-d needing our thanks...I see what you mean. A woman I much admire once told me G-d needed our devotion. I decided it was a different way of thinking but I would try it. Its hard for the traditionally raised like me to think G-d "needs" anything. He gets maybe too much conversation from me all the time, but i know much of it cam help someone else or me to see how I cannot get along without Him for more than a few minutes. Just to think, I am a part of G-d...overwhelms me. Me! an outpressing of Him,/her/It, the Existence, the Oneness...brings tears to my eyes.

And "taking things for granted"...One no longer ever has that problem when "things' may be unpleasant that come if one has already accepted All. Contentment comes with acceptance..and so does peace.

I think it all is One. If one can accept that one is tremendously loved by G-d, then everything , everything including life is something to be awed by and thankful for. One's life becomes gratitude (even if one forgets a few minutes) One's life becomes G-d's love given back to Him as well as spread out to all.Or as I see it..We all exchange it within G-d because we are all One.

As for your remark about dependence. The way I see it, if G-d looked away for a second I would cease to exist. That is dependence. I glory in that dependence. And as a woman, i rather like having someone there to lean on when I feel i need it...so color me sometimes dependent even in this life. You said;"too childlike" Is there such a thing? not childish, but childlike. That is no insult to me either. We call Him Father do we not?

you said:

"To assume people 'think they have it coming' does away with personal pain- We all suffer. Suffering has no respect for person or purse- No not good enough!"

We suffer..I must agree, but why do we ? And does everyone suffer the same amount? If it has no respect of persons.? I think a lot of our "meaning" depends on how we see our suffering and the suffering of others? So, how do you see this. I am slightly confused. Where does "personal pain" come from?

and you said:

"Abuse lingers around here somewhere- lack of - implies demand- expectation and I wonder in the wisdom of giving when not appreciated- "

One cannot abuse if one loves. One cannot be abused unless one allows it. If a need exists, it does not matter to me if there comes a thank you. I do it because I want to.I am doing myself a favor, not them. It is my decision and my choice.

I think we need to remember that we get something out of giving as well. If I give because someone asks, it is still my choice. But if I give when no one asks, then it is because i enjoy it and want to do it. No one owes me anything,

Our children, bless them, can not abuse us ( unless we are very old and feeble). It is always we who allow whatever behavior happens more than once. I know when what I give is not necessary and I give because it causes me pleasure. When it is needed I am thankful I have it to give.When I will have no more, I will have to stop.Better watch them enjoy, then leave it for my death.

In fact, if i were to add it all up, I would be in my children's debt, not financially, but in the scheme of things. They are more thoughtful ( I think, maybe) than I was of my aging parents. We do not demand it, it just happens. Some parents, of course demand it as their right.I have seen unhappy aging parents, and I do feel badly about their expectations being not met.( When I visited my mother in the nursing home, after I could no longer take care of her, I saw many aging parents miserable and lonely. I sometimes wonder if their children had been miserable and lonely while still young and at home? see how judgmental I can be? We do reap some of what we sow, don't we? ( No, that does not excuse the children)

I can't help but think, that since our kids saw us care for one grampa and a different granma in our house along with them that they learned something about family responsibility and love that they now , in their 40's with kids of their own ,remember??? ( and yes, they can giggle when I do something dumb like fall upstairs, and they can tell me how weird I am because I see the love in their faces).Its mostly my grown grandkids who think I am weird, my kids and husband are used to it.