Re: Re: Art Work and an odd thought..

[Guest guest]

> Dear Carol.

Thanks for sharing your Art Group and the v accomplished members therein.

Strange

how one is moved to 'do' different pictures and strive to accomplish same-

whatever it

is.

I continue to battle with the movement notion although 'quality' -whatever- can

come

through in any expressive Art- and it seems - or maybe its one of those beliefs

I have

adopted that tells me that it is possible to understand quality from any of the

four

functions Jung has defined.

I am reminded about the Five 'Instincts' Jung talks about vis

Movement-

hunger-

sexuality-

reflection

and creation

and why he did not include - Dreaming - fear and for that matter sleep!?

Pondering on such over the years - I can see there are great activities or

industries

around each of the above 'instincts= that which recurres and is impulsuve- is

his

definition of Instinct. Anyway ponder it.... Movement has sport of all kinds as

an

industry.

and some are too obvious to write but for reflection we have the whole industry

of

Schooling.

Why do you think... did Jung omit to add the obvious other instincts..?

F.

[Guest guest]

..

>

> Thanks for sharing your Art Group and the v accomplished members therein.

> Strange

> how one is moved to 'do' different pictures and strive to accomplish same-

> whatever it

> is.

C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At times

this can be very unpleasant.

> I continue to battle with the movement notion although

> 'quality' -whatever- can come

> through in any expressive Art- and it seems - or maybe its one of those

> beliefs I have

> adopted that tells me that it is possible to understand quality from any

> of the four

> functions Jung has defined.

C: Movements seem to happen naturally in the professional art world. People

get together with like minds and also if there are a number of you doing

similar things it's much easier to find venues. But, still, I think it's

the unconscious that produces movements.

>

> I am reminded about the Five 'Instincts' Jung talks about vis

> Movement-

> hunger-

> sexuality-

> reflection

> and creation

> and why he did not include - Dreaming - fear and for that matter sleep!?

>

> Pondering on such over the years - I can see there are great activities or

> industries

> around each of the above 'instincts= that which recurres and is impulsuve-

> is his

> definition of Instinct. Anyway ponder it.... Movement has sport of all

> kinds as an

> industry.

> and some are too obvious to write but for reflection we have the whole

> industry of

> Schooling.

> Why do you think... did Jung omit to add the obvious other instincts..?

C: Well, he says the instinct has a certain automatism, no freedom, so

schooling would seem to fall into the category (mostly) as a conscious

activity. I can't remember a place where Jung tries to list all the

instincts but in Psyche and Matter, von Franz says that the seeming

difference between the instinctual and the archetypal is probably only a

subjectively valid separation, e.g. synchronicity.

So it seems he feels free to speak of instincts and arrchetypes

indiscriminately and there could never really be a full list

Carol

[Guest guest]

>is an urge or desperation to portray what I have >witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant bit is knowing --No! Not >this time.

Dear , Carol, Betty, and everybody,

Oh, yes! I got so very frustrated at trying to portray what I saw and experienced and, unlike y'all, I don't have any training in the arts, etc, except for one class on drawing that I took well over 35 years ago. And even when I have this feeling that something less constructed and more abstract is what I want to do, what comes out is ... a very prosaic drawing. Except for one time. Sigh.

And whether or not it's appropriate to call it a channeled higher energy or whatever, I can better express it by trying to write about it. The only reason I would call it "channeled" is because when I'm done with it, I often wonder, "Wow! Where did that come from?" I mean, I recognized it and the ideas and concepts when I'm typing it and I could tell it was "in my head," sort of, but I know it didn't originate in my head/brain. When I write from my own head the outcome is more strained, more dense, more difficult to figure out.

I can most definitely tell the difference between "channeled" and my self.

Blissings,

Sam

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. ~ C.G. Jung

Don't believe everything you think. ~ Bumper StickerMany of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi Choose your illusion carefully. ~ Unknown

[Guest guest]

C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At times this can be very unpleasant Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego, favoritism. I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before, but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong. Betty _____________________________________Letter content was scannedNo threat detectedwww.winantivirus.com

[Guest guest]

>If we could all forget the "product" of our art and concentrate on >the process of making art, we wouldn't need to judge ourselves so >severely.

Dear Toni,

Much of my frustration came about, I think, because much of my art at a particular time had to be done more or less on a timetable as a part of my assignments. However, before that I'd decided to see what it might be like to do something with watercolors. I found a neat book called, "Watercolor: A New Beginning - A Holistic Approach to Painting," by Ann K. . She emphasizes process instead of product and in the beginning I felt much like a preschooler doing finger painting except with a brush and watercolors instead. And it was really fun and very enjoyable and I even liked some of the products though I'd never call them paintings. LOL

About the same time I found another book, "An Invitation to Dream: Tap the Resources of Inner Wisdom" by Ana Lora Garrard and she suggests exercises based on writing, meditation ,and artwork that is a good fit with the other book.

Maybe it's time to go back to them now that my courses are finished. I'm glad this discussion of art came up. I think it's been personally very helpful.

Blissings,

Sam

Don't believe everything you think. ~ Bumper StickerMany of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi Choose your illusion carefully. ~ UnknownWho looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. ~ C.G. Jung

[Guest guest]

B. How you feel is right Betty even if it is somehow in the great scheme of

things

'wrong.'

The nearest I get to this Carol is an urge or desperation to portray what I have

witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant bit is knowing

--No! Not

this time.

> C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At

> times this can be very unpleasant

>

> Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively

> true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego,

> favoritism. I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before,

> but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.

> Betty

>

>

> ---------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

As an artist is it not the duty of the artist to present truth as he/she

sees it?

That is at least my way of thinking.

And truth is always the instrument of a " higher power "

It is not the perfection of the work of art, but the expression of the

artist that makes it an instrument.

What else am I about when I paint what is in my subconscious? Some of us

were brought up to offer everything to " the greater glory of G-d " That

didn't mean only perfect things.It is intent, that counts.

We artists have a duty, to my mind to express truth as we see it. And our

hands hold a brush, not a poaching egg.

Toni

Re: Re: Art Work and an odd thought..

> B. How you feel is right Betty even if it is somehow in the great scheme

> of things

> 'wrong.'

> The nearest I get to this Carol is an urge or desperation to portray what

> I have

> witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant bit is

> knowing --No! Not

> this time.

>

>

>> C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At

>> times this can be very unpleasant

>>

>> Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively

>> true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego,

>> favoritism. I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before,

>> but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.

>> Betty

>>

>>

>> ---------------------------------------------------

>> Letter content was scanned by WinAntiVirus Pro 2006.

>> No threat detected.

>> Please visit www.winantivirus.com for more details.

>

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

> may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sam.

Right On!!!

I think and i have read that the further along we are in the spiritual life, or individuation, the more psychic we become. We will have more insights,more synchronicities , more ideas "out of nowhere" whatever kind of expression we use as artists. Regular folk too.

If we could all forget the "product" of our art and concentrate on the process of making art, we wouldn't need to judge ourselves so severely. We can only do what we can do. I sure don't paint as a master. I paint as I am, for joy. In fact I am considering throwing away my work that is not on mine or someone's wall.( some of it not bad, I think...but i am too attached) It is like drawing a mandala. The sacrifice is not complete until it has been destroyed.

Our attachment to our "art" is like our attachment to all things along with our attachment to having our way, to thinking we are hot stuff, to depression, to people, to sex...whatever it is not only material things we get too attached to. How hard it is to open one's closed hand busy grasping something, and letting it go.

It is a long hard road for me, as attached as I seem to be to being "right"

I do find lately writing things in my journal I never knew I thought. I do know Whom to thank, as i am sure you do.

love,

Toni

PS I know "prosaic" I feel that way often even in abstract paintings. Lack of talent or fear whichever it is for me, I am trying to let that go too, and not judge myself. I no longer show my art, no more exhibitions. It was always so hard at the beginning, and yet when one hits the jackpot very occasionally, What pride!one has been there, done that..a big fish in a tiny pond.. Process is the thing, I believe..it is like a prayer said silently and seen by very few.

Re: Re: Art Work and an odd thought..

>is an urge or desperation to portray what I have >witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant bit is knowing --No! Not >this time.

Dear , Carol, Betty, and everybody,

Oh, yes! I got so very frustrated at trying to portray what I saw and experienced and, unlike y'all, I don't have any training in the arts, etc, except for one class on drawing that I took well over 35 years ago. And even when I have this feeling that something less constructed and more abstract is what I want to do, what comes out is ... a very prosaic drawing. Except for one time. Sigh.

And whether or not it's appropriate to call it a channeled higher energy or whatever, I can better express it by trying to write about it. The only reason I would call it "channeled" is because when I'm done with it, I often wonder, "Wow! Where did that come from?" I mean, I recognized it and the ideas and concepts when I'm typing it and I could tell it was "in my head," sort of, but I know it didn't originate in my head/brain. When I write from my own head the outcome is more strained, more dense, more difficult to figure out.

I can most definitely tell the difference between "channeled" and my self.

Blissings,

Sam

[Guest guest]

Don't assume we all are trained in the arts-

I am not and untill what it is within me that wants out- untill the expression

of that inner

movement is achieved I do not intend seeking training-

and agreed there Sam.

Did I do that!? returns from the picture.

Who said :

'Art is a lie'

I asked a proficient musician here about music and he

replied

then Music is an illusion.

But Sure!

Modern Life is imagination.

>

> In a message dated 2/9/2006 1:37:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> jdstephenflynn@... writes:

>

> >is an urge or desperation to portray what I have

> >witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant

> >bit is

> knowing --No! Not

> >this time.

>

>

>

> Dear , Carol, Betty, and everybody,

>

> Oh, yes! I got so very frustrated at trying to portray what I saw and

> experienced and, unlike y'all, I don't have any training in the arts,

> etc, except for one class on drawing that I took well over 35 years

> ago. And even when I have this feeling that something less

> constructed and more abstract is what I want to do, what comes out is

> ... a very prosaic drawing. Except for one time. Sigh.

>

> And whether or not it's appropriate to call it a channeled higher

> energy or whatever, I can better express it by trying to write about

> it. The only reason I would call it " channeled " is because when I'm

> done with it, I often wonder, " Wow! Where did that come from? " I

> mean, I recognized it and the ideas and concepts when I'm typing it

> and I could tell it was " in my head, " sort of, but I know it didn't

> originate in my head/brain. When I write from my own head the

> outcome is more strained, more dense, more difficult to figure out.

>

> I can most definitely tell the difference between " channeled " and my

> self.

>

> Blissings,

> Sam

>

> Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. ~ C.G. Jung

> Don't believe everything you think. ~ Bumper Sticker Many of the

> truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. ~ Obi-Wan

> Kenobi Choose your illusion carefully. ~ Unknown

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It could best be said, 'these images from the unconscious', rather than 'instrument of a higher power". Which has images of God told me to do it, etc. which ends up spoiling the whole process. Betty Re: Re: Art Work and an odd thought.. B. How you feel is right Betty even if it is somehow in the great scheme of things 'wrong.'The nearest I get to this Carol is an urge or desperation to portray what I have witnessed. The 'if only' it could be captured, and the unpleasant bit is knowing --No! Not this time.> C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At> times this can be very unpleasant> > Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively> true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego,> favoritism. I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before,> but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.> Betty> _____________________________________Letter content was scannedNo threat detectedwww.winantivirus.com

[Guest guest]

C: Yes, it's a feeling of being the instrument of a higher power. At times

this can be very unpleasant

Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively true,

always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego, favoritism.

I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before, but today my mood is

to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.

Carol: Sorry you got turned off, Betty. Maybe it will help if I elaborate.

Of course not all artists work from the unconscious, some try to reproduce

the beauty they find in front of them, which I think is the point

was making after he read the above email.

But I do work with the unconscious so I have paid careful attention to

Jung's advice on the subject. He tells us that it is of utmost importance to

acknowledge where the images are coming from (the higher power or

unconscious, equally I could have called it the lower power or the other) or

we suffer the risk of becoming inflated or identifying with those contents.

So I take pains to remember I am not producing this material. Now as far as

favoritism is concerned, I can't think of anyone who hasn't been the

instrument of the unc at some point in their lives even if it's simply

obeying a complex. I think we obey the unc all the time, all of us. Also,

what is expressed thru a painting is colored by the lens (artist) thru which

it is seen and the value of this lens can only be determined by its effect.

One never really knows if the intent of the unc has been fulfilled. I do not

feel favored to any degree, in fact the opposite could be said. It is a

feeling of being driven; it's as though there is a great crowd behind you,

all wanting to speak at once and they won't let you have peace. And there

are other, worse things. These are the unpleasantries I speak of.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol, Thank you for your kind answer. I don't know if I deserved it. I'm sorry. Your 33 year experience says you know all the pitfalls and avoid them. Also, you are brave to encounter the 'unpleasantries' and continue. Betty Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego, favoritism.I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before, but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.Carol: Sorry you got turned off, Betty. Maybe it will help if I elaborate. Of course not all artists work from the unconscious, some try to reproduce the beauty they find in front of them, which I think is the point was making after he read the above email.But I do work with the unconscious so I have paid careful attention to Jung's advice on the subject. He tells us that it is of utmost importance to acknowledge where the images are coming from (the higher power or unconscious, equally I could have called it the lower power or the other) or we suffer the risk of becoming inflated or identifying with those contents. So I take pains to remember I am not producing this material. Now as far as favoritism is concerned, I can't think of anyone who hasn't been the instrument of the unc at some point in their lives even if it's simply obeying a complex. I think we obey the unc all the time, all of us. Also, what is expressed thru a painting is colored by the lens (artist) thru which it is seen and the value of this lens can only be determined by its effect. One never really knows if the intent of the unc has been fulfilled. I do not feel favored to any degree, in fact the opposite could be said. It is a feeling of being driven; it's as though there is a great crowd behind you, all wanting to speak at once and they won't let you have peace. And there are other, worse things. These are the unpleasantries I speak of.Carol _____________________________________Letter content was scannedNo threat detectedwww.winantivirus.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol,

It seems that to be acknowledged is to be contraversial or challenging or

whatever.

Stay true to your leadings or promptings and I hope you exceed your grasp, or

what's

the heavens for?

F

> Dear Carol,

> Thank you for your kind answer. I don't know if I deserved it. I'm

> sorry. Your 33 year experience says you know all the pitfalls and

> avoid them. Also, you are brave to encounter the 'unpleasantries' and

> continue. Betty

>

>

>

> Betty: Carol, these kind of statements, no matter how subjectively

> true, always turn me off. In my mind's eye they always smack of ego,

> favoritism. I've never had an occasion to disagree with you before,

> but today my mood is to say exactly how I feel, even if I am wrong.

>

> Carol: Sorry you got turned off, Betty. Maybe it will help if I

> elaborate. Of course not all artists work from the unconscious, some

> try to reproduce the beauty they find in front of them, which I

> think is the point was making after he read the above email.

> But I do work with the unconscious so I have paid careful attention

> to Jung's advice on the subject. He tells us that it is of utmost

> importance to acknowledge where the images are coming from (the

> higher power or unconscious, equally I could have called it the

> lower power or the other) or we suffer the risk of becoming inflated

> or identifying with those contents. So I take pains to remember I am

> not producing this material. Now as far as favoritism is concerned,

> I can't think of anyone who hasn't been the instrument of the unc at

> some point in their lives even if it's simply obeying a complex. I

> think we obey the unc all the time, all of us. Also, what is

> expressed thru a painting is colored by the lens (artist) thru which

> it is seen and the value of this lens can only be determined by its

> effect. One never really knows if the intent of the unc has been

> fulfilled. I do not feel favored to any degree, in fact the opposite

> could be said. It is a feeling of being driven; it's as though there

> is a great crowd behind you, all wanting to speak at once and they

> won't let you have peace. And there are other, worse things. These

> are the unpleasantries I speak of.

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------------------------

> Letter content was scanned by WinAntiVirus Pro 2006.

> No threat detected.

> Please visit www.winantivirus.com for more details.

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol,

Thank you for your kind answer. I don't know if I deserved it. I'm sorry.

Your 33 year experience says you know all the pitfalls and avoid them.

Also, you are brave to encounter the 'unpleasantries' and continue.

Betty

Dear Betty,

No blame. Sometimes my posts are too short because I don't have enough time

to craft them properly. It's not surprizing that a person might not know how

to take them.

<<<3

Carol