Re: Ego -human expl!

October 3, 2005

Hello, Alice, all,

I'd like to bring a current situation to this discussion, if y'all will bear with me . . .

I have an atheist friend with whom I'm involved in a lot of group activities. She is an extraverted Russian. While I'm very much of an introvert. It seems I really insulted her about a month ago by misphrasing an email so that it she could read it as there being no difference to me between and atheist and a fundamentalist because both purported to know the unknowable. She's made me very aware that something was awry by 'slighting ' me in those groups. And now in order to 'make up' she want an 'apology from the very bottom of my heart'.

* & %$ I've never found 'the bottom of my heart'. And am awash with ambivalence as I don't feel I deserve what she's dished out, perhaps in trying 'to protect herself' from further hurt. She's very intelligent, about my age, but not a 'psychological person'. I know we're both awash in our own complexes and am trying to deal with my own. It's really hard to communicate with someone with whom one shares neither a psychological nor a 'religious' view (to me there's little difference.) Oh for our inner Jungs to say, 'Well, we're really both in the soup between us!!!'

Blessings,

Ego -human expl!

I realize that my prev post was abstract but for some like myself carrying w/it certain undeniable proofs.

So, for a human explanation:

How do we know wh we are identified pathologically w/our ego? When life just seems to be one damn thing after another! Jung has writt clearly on this subj n says this comes fr not living a symbolic life. U can read this in his essay called "The Symbolic Life". Not to live this way is to live a life w/out meaning. Despair. Fortunately, a crisis of some kind will occur to wake us up n all u have to do is examine yr own life n pinpoint the occasion or u wld not be on j-f! As J put it, there is no healing w/out a religious experience. We might say spiritual.....

Wh my son was ab 15, he babysat for a Jewish cple w/a toddler, generally asleep. He cld watch TV n make himself tea in kitch. As he was in kitch, he came across a synagogue bulletin w/a story in it that made a HUGE impression!

"A young high sch grad was introd to a rabbi.

R said: Wonderful! Now what?

Grad: College.

R. Wonderful! Then what?

G: Job, money etc.

R. Wonderful! Then what?

G: marriage, kids, house , the works...

R: Wonderful! Then what?

G: Promotion, bigger house, travel etc.

R: Wonderful! Then what?

G: Retirement, move to Florida..........kick the bucket?

R: Then what?

-----------------I abbrev!

So a life entirely lived by ego consc. lacks meaning.

One thing that has struck me is that now whenever I am upset, outraged, worried, irritated or just fooling around n laughing, etc. I cn observe myself being identif w/ego. Wh u get an inkling of yr Div Guest, u start watching yrself n finally one day u ask who's watching?

Meditation/pryr wh u shut up n listen! speeds up the process, for sure. Do you remeb those glass coffeemakers that raised water into a top glass bowl wh the coffee was?

That's wh I once got as the process of medit:

1. Turn on heat attend

2. Water [pryr, question, etc.] rises

3. Self [DG] puts insight in.

4. Turn off heat n during the day, usually at the most inconvenient moment, that little gluggle of intuition delivers an answeror idea.

------------------

I goofed off today n watched the RED SOX!! Yaaaaay!

I cert was identified w/my ego n enjoyed ev minute!:]

love

ao

October 3, 2005

Dear ,

Boy, can I feel with you!!!~. I have been in this soup forever. Even Jung said that he had a hard time talking about what he believed to those who did not share even a small part of his view.

Obviously, I am no expert on "HOW TO GET ALONG WITH OTHERS". I did not play well with others even in kindergarten. I can only give you my idea of what works for me now adays if I forget and say anything "spiritual".

I have no problem apologizing for what someone thought she heard correctly. To smooth ruffled feathers with those who are not very close friends, I am willing to take the blame for any misunderstanding. Then, I say, let,s get on with business."( I am so sorry for this misunderstanding. I explained myself badly) that sort of thing.

I know full well that explanations never work for me...not even here on these lists. I used to care a lot that someone understood what I was trying to say...no more. Since it is almost impossible to find someone who speaks the same language using even the same words, it is impossible....especially if it is something important to me. I have finally taken the advice of Jung and many spiritual masters who say...do not discuss your spiritual life with anyone, they will surely NOT understand, and they will definitely judge. ( For me, it happens especially if I wrongly assume someone is where I am or almost, so must see, experience and listen to the same Source.) Never happens. All it ever did for me was cost me lots of tears, and made me defensive because the subject was so important to me.

It only took me some 70 years to realize how threatening a spiritual/religious discussion or even a few words can set off a whirlwind. It used to happen here all the time. We are all so good at thinking!!! we understand what the other is saying, especially with a touchy subject where everyone imagines a hierarchy of the most religious to the least...Of all the subjects one can discuss, including I suppose "when did you stop beating your wife?"this causes most problems. Those who believe in the supernatural of any description are damned by those (as recently seen here or on one of the other lists) who do not. And maybe sometimes, but rarely the other way around. Personally I think there is a lot of unconscious envy around, but I would never say that out loud...I've been beaten over the head with my experiences often enough.

I know this doesn't help you much, but when one puts one's ego on the line, someone will always smack the hell out of it or at least totally misunderstand. I am no saint, obviously, but they often had this same problem which went as far as outright persecution for some of them.

Anyway, I would find not the bottom of my heart,..I reserve that for serious things, but I would say I was so sorry, just to make everyone at ease again.I say to myself that isn't hypocritical because I am actually sorry that some disagreement happened and someone is unhappy.

This is one subject no one seems to have a sense of humor about.

sorry for rambling...but you hit a sore spot on me, unknowingly. It is wonderful that light on the subject finally entered my life, and for me, I have found an answer. "shut up" There is no possibility of a 'community"" either, which is why so many people leave with black and blue marks all over from "pot shots" taken to them . If they are wise they decide to make their own way.

Just my thoughts...and personal opinion.

Sad to say, I still see a small complex at work here in me, started long before I ever got to internet lists, but was engraved even more once here. I'll have to work on that.

Toni

Re: Ego -human expl!

Hello, Alice, all,

I'd like to bring a current situation to this discussion, if y'all will bear with me . . .

I have an atheist friend with whom I'm involved in a lot of group activities. She is an extraverted Russian. While I'm very much of an introvert. It seems I really insulted her about a month ago by misphrasing an email so that it she could read it as there being no difference to me between and atheist and a fundamentalist because both purported to know the unknowable. She's made me very aware that something was awry by 'slighting ' me in those groups. And now in order to 'make up' she want an 'apology from the very bottom of my heart'.

* & %$ I've never found 'the bottom of my heart'. And am awash with ambivalence as I don't feel I deserve what she's dished out, perhaps in trying 'to protect herself' from further hurt. She's very intelligent, about my age, but not a 'psychological person'. I know we're both awash in our own complexes and am trying to deal with my own. It's really hard to communicate with someone with whom one shares neither a psychological nor a 'religious' view (to me there's little difference.) Oh for our inner Jungs to say, 'Well, we're really both in the soup between us!!!'

Blessings,

October 3, 2005

> Hello, Alice, all,

> I'd like to bring a current situation to this discussion, if

y'all will bear with me . . .

> I have an atheist friend with whom I'm involved in a lot of

group activities. She is an extraverted Russian. While I'm very

much of an introvert. It seems I really insulted her about a month

ago by

>... misphrasing an email so that it she could read

>it as there being no difference to me between an

>atheist and a fundamentalist because both purported

>to know the unknowable.

hi ,

I'd apologize since her feelings *were* hurt,

even if you had no intention of hurting.

(and I fer sure don't think you intended

to slight her)

the " no difference " part might be a 'hurtful thing'

(as far as I know, there's very little history of

athiests' torturing and killing other people because

those others assert different answers to

" the god-question " ... while fundamentalists have

often delighted in horrific actions wreaked

upon " non-believers " .)

this particular " difference " is a big one.

....and possibly related to the motivations

underlying a person's approach to answering

" the god-question " .

(also, 'fundamentalists' form a niche sort of

sub-set of those whose answer to " the god-question "

is " existence " ... and while ' " rabid " athiests' might

form a semi-corresponding group, even " rabid " athiests

(sic) rarely indulge in the hateful actions of

some fundamentalists.)

While your friend might be 'overreacting' somewhat,

it might also be possible to soothe her feelings

by a heart-felt apology (without getting hung up

in the sticky metaphoric constraints)

????

" dear xxxxx, after meditating on my earlier

comments, I realized that there ARE diffences

between fundamentalists and athiests, even

BIG differences. I'm sorry if my misunderstanding

has caused you any pain, as I value your friendship

more than I value any set of words. "

???? maybe?

I don't know, the Dalai Lama would have a good

answer tho.

peace,

tracy

ps, at one level, athiests and 'believers' have

both asserted " knowing the unknowable " which

smacks of a certain arrogance, but beyond that,

their actions may diverge (see above)

October 3, 2005

Thank you Toni, and Alice for your attention to my problem. You are of course all right. I have apologized over and over. I know, I think, perhaps where the problem lies. I want too much 'to be understood'. This isn't actually wanting more than 'I deserve' although my 'occasional friend' might think so right now. It's simply more than I'm likely to get.

I've know this 'friend' for 30 years. I can't say that about many with whom I associate f2f right now. It's only in the last couple of years that we've worked very closely to gether. Aside from being officers in the same small branch of a national writing club, we work a lot on haiku. She's made me an editor for the Russian list in the World Haiku Club and for the review. Oh, deary me. I speak no Russian at all. But she's uncertain of her English with is in fact quite good. But I feel that on can never get the same nuance as the native born in poetry. Our techical advisor is Irish and lives there. Even his English is different. She says 'pooh, pooh, nuances.' And yet they are important in translation where I feel it may be more important to convey the spirit that the exact words. We have confided a great deal in one another.

I guess I believe in 'no fault' hurts. There is always some history. So my primary interest is in the dynamics. That is Not working. She says I'm 'blaming her' though that's not my intent.

This same thing happened with my ex- who was Finnish born. It always went back to 'who started this' and of course it was somehow always I *S*, because I tended to be the first to notice and mention disharmony.

I wish that I could use all of your suggestion. Unfortunately she says she has not interest in 'journey' or 'religion'. Her religion is 'poetry' she says. I think this includes 'psychology'. That she isn't even 'asking me' for an apology, * Rueful smile*; she's only telling me what will happen if I don't.

What I'm seeing I think is the expectation of a 'good mother'. One who totally disregards her own discomfort in favor of 'feeling for her child'. She's quite annoyed that I should have any problem with the 'punishment she's dealt out' since it was 'all my fault' in the first place. Once again I'm appreciating how lonely it is to 'be a good mother' without the support of a 'good father.'

It's true the Bible Belt is a tough place for an atheist. It's understandable that she's defensive in talking about religion. This Jungian agnostic don't find that much understanding either.

I worked really hard with many dream fragments this morning. The uniting element seemed to be that I didn't seem able to do anything quite right.

Blessings all,

October 3, 2005

Dear ,

I have just returned from Portugal and missed the thread, but it does

seem as though your colleague is living out the first half of the

Persephone myth, wanting to stay forever Kore and projecting Demeter

onto all possible hooks. Activate your Zeus animus and kick her out

into the world, would be my suggestion! (But then I'm an old-

fashioned Jungian and mostly frowned upon these days).

fa

> Thank you Toni, and Alice for your attention to my problem.

You are of course all right. I have apologized over and over. I

know, I think, perhaps where the problem lies. I want too much 'to

be understood'. This isn't actually wanting more than 'I deserve'

although my 'occasional friend' might think so right now. It's

simply more than I'm likely to get.

> I've know this 'friend' for 30 years. I can't say that about

many with whom I associate f2f right now. It's only in the last

couple of years that we've worked very closely to gether. Aside from

being officers in the same small branch of a national writing club,

we work a lot on haiku. She's made me an editor for the Russian list

in the World Haiku Club and for the review. Oh, deary me. I speak

no Russian at all. But she's uncertain of her English with is in

fact quite good. But I feel that on can never get the same nuance

as the native born in poetry. Our techical advisor is Irish and

lives there. Even his English is different. She says 'pooh, pooh,

nuances.' And yet they are important in translation where I feel it

may be more important to convey the spirit that the exact words. We

have confided a great deal in one another.

> I guess I believe in 'no fault' hurts. There is always some

history. So my primary interest is in the dynamics. That is Not

working. She says I'm 'blaming her' though that's not my intent.

> This same thing happened with my ex- who was Finnish born. It

always went back to 'who started this' and of course it was somehow

always I *S*, because I tended to be the first to notice and mention

disharmony.

> I wish that I could use all of your suggestion. Unfortunately

she says she has not interest in 'journey' or 'religion'. Her

religion is 'poetry' she says. I think this includes 'psychology'.

That she isn't even 'asking me' for an apology, * Rueful smile*;

she's only telling me what will happen if I don't.

> What I'm seeing I think is the expectation of a 'good mother'.

One who totally disregards her own discomfort in favor of 'feeling

for her child'. She's quite annoyed that I should have any problem

with the 'punishment she's dealt out' since it was 'all my fault' in

the first place. Once again I'm appreciating how lonely it is

to 'be a good mother' without the support of a 'good father.'

> It's true the Bible Belt is a tough place for an atheist. It's

understandable that she's defensive in talking about religion. This

Jungian agnostic don't find that much understanding either.

>

> I worked really hard with many dream fragments this morning.

The uniting element seemed to be that I didn't seem able to do

anything quite right.

>

> Blessings all,

October 3, 2005

Thanks, fa, for your thoughts on the subject. It certainly is tempting so I appreciate the chance to 'live it out vicariously' *s*. I guess I won't. She's already feeling so abused but may now be getting over it.

I appreciate all the solace y'all have given me in this discomfort. Now If 'I' Can only put it behind me and not let my own 'hurt' and apprehension color our future relations.

Blessed be,

Re: Ego -human expl!

Dear ,I have just returned from Portugal and missed the thread, but it does seem as though your colleague is living out the first half of the Persephone myth, wanting to stay forever Kore and projecting Demeter onto all possible hooks. Activate your Zeus animus and kick her out into the world, would be my suggestion! (But then I'm an old-fashioned Jungian and mostly frowned upon these days).fa> Thank you Toni, and Alice for your attention to my problem. You are of course all right. I have apologized over and over. I know, I think, perhaps where the problem lies. I want too much 'to be understood'. This isn't actually wanting more than 'I deserve' although my 'occasional friend' might think so right now. It's simply more than I'm likely to get. > I've know this 'friend' for 30 years. I can't say that about many with whom I associate f2f right now. It's only in the last couple of years that we've worked very closely to gether. Aside from being officers in the same small branch of a national writing club, we work a lot on haiku. She's made me an editor for the Russian list in the World Haiku Club and for the review. Oh, deary me. I speak no Russian at all. But she's uncertain of her English with is in fact quite good. But I feel that on can never get the same nuance as the native born in poetry. Our techical advisor is Irish and lives there. Even his English is different. She says 'pooh, pooh, nuances.' And yet they are important in translation where I feel it may be more important to convey the spirit that the exact words. We have confided a great deal in one another.> I guess I believe in 'no fault' hurts. There is always some history. So my primary interest is in the dynamics. That is Not working. She says I'm 'blaming her' though that's not my intent.> This same thing happened with my ex- who was Finnish born. It always went back to 'who started this' and of course it was somehow always I *S*, because I tended to be the first to notice and mention disharmony.> I wish that I could use all of your suggestion. Unfortunately she says she has not interest in 'journey' or 'religion'. Her religion is 'poetry' she says. I think this includes 'psychology'. That she isn't even 'asking me' for an apology, * Rueful smile*; she's only telling me what will happen if I don't.> What I'm seeing I think is the expectation of a 'good mother'. One who totally disregards her own discomfort in favor of 'feeling for her child'. She's quite annoyed that I should have any problem with the 'punishment she's dealt out' since it was 'all my fault' in the first place. Once again I'm appreciating how lonely it is to 'be a good mother' without the support of a 'good father.'> It's true the Bible Belt is a tough place for an atheist. It's understandable that she's defensive in talking about religion. This Jungian agnostic don't find that much understanding either.> > I worked really hard with many dream fragments this morning. The uniting element seemed to be that I didn't seem able to do anything quite right.> > Blessings all,

October 4, 2005

>How dare anyone even think to judge what another deserves!!!

When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.~ Wayne Dyer

Blissings,

Sam

If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking. -- Denis WaitleyIt is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- AristotleThe goal of an argument should be progress, not victory. -- Author unknown

October 4, 2005

Dear ,

After I wrote you yesterday and thought it over, I wish I hadn't sent out "negative" energy about me.

In fact for me it was a wake up call because I thought I had forgiven all that nonsense. Nothing hurts me as much as cutting remarks or judgments on my spiritual practices. Now that is pure ego, and it is time I acknowledged that.

Sometimes I pat myself on the back for how forgiving I am...that obviously isn't always true, if I can still feel the pain. It's this problem I have with living in the NOW. I have no problems there, but when I go back to the past....well...I could dredge up a lot. I don't know why I haven't learned to let the dead bury the dead. I am OK with not projecting ahead...more than a day or two ( have a nasty procedure all day Friday in the operating room, and the present fear is worse than the procedure will be, and I know it)

That may be,because I know more or less in general and have time to accept and prepare.

It is the damned past. After all those prayers for inner healing, not to speak of Jungian analysis and even a short tome with a psychiatrist....I should have nothing left in memory that isn't healed. The will is there...except when I go off half -cocked as I did in my answer to you.

We have the same problem, I see... we want to be understood...hell so did Jung and probably most people on earth. But I do care, and so I explain and explain and explain. But you know what I found. Nobody is listening and no clarification actually occurred. Some day with wisdom supplied from grace, I won't care what anyone thinks or how misunderstood I am. I am not there yet.

I guess I have retired to my nest for the most part, because I can no longer handle complicated relationships...I just don't care enough. So my journal gets most of my thoughts- occasionally Ray or daughter Beth, but they don't judge because I think they know it is a lost cause which can only be covered by love and acceptance.

Remember the good old wisdom...some things just cannot be fixed.

Anyway, sorry, I dumped my own stuff on you.

I also read many years ago that life is too short for friends like yours...If a person's face doesn't light up when you come into the room....they are not good as friends or time spent.

How dare anyone even think to judge what another deserves!!!

Toni

Re: Re: Ego -human expl!