Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Interesting! Begin forwarded message: From: Jgembr0@... Date: January 24, 2006 10:47:14 AM GMT-05:00 To: Jgembr0@... Subject: matriotism Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:21 PMSubject: ' Matriotism' - by SheehanI'm sure you know who Sheehan is, ( Geo. W. sure does!); however, she has just come up with an excellent essay on a newer term, "Matriotism". "just in case you missed it" ~~ warmest regards, Matriotism - By SheehanSunday 22 January 2006Much as I wish I could take credit for the word "Matriotism," another woman wrote to me and gave me the concept. I was so intrigued by the word that I have been meditating on the possible ideology behind it, and a on new paradigm for true and lasting peace in the world.Before I dive into the concept of Matriotism, let's explore the word "patriotism." Dictionary.com defines it as: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it. When we all know that patriotism in the US means: exploiting others' love for country by sending them and their children off to sacrifice for my bank balance!There have been volumes written about patriotism, defining it, supporting it, challenging the notion of it, etc. I believe the notion of patriotism has been expediently and nefariously exploited, and used to lead our nation into scores of disastrous and needless wars. The idea of patriotism has virtually wiped out entire generations of our precious young people and has allowed our nation's leaders to commit mass murder on an unprecedented scale. The vile sputum of "if you aren't with us, then you are against us" is basically the epitome of patriotism gone wild. After the tragedy of 9/11, we were on our way to becoming a fledgling Matriotic society until our leaders jumped on the bandwagon of inappropriate and misguided vengeance to send our young people to die and kill in two countries that were no threat to the USA or to our way of life. The neocons exploited patriotism to fulfill their goals of imperialism and plunder.This sort of patriotism begins when we enter kindergarten and learn the nationalist "Pledge of Allegiance." It transcends all sense when we are taught the "Star Spangled Banner," a hymn to war. In our history classes the genocide of the Native American peoples is glossed over as we learn about the spread of American Imperialism over our continent, though it wasn't named until the 1840s, when the doctrine of Manifest Destiny was expounded to justify the USA's conquest of and "civilizing" of Mexican territories and Native American populations. Manifest Destiny sought to spread the "the boundaries of freedom" to the American Continent, with the notion that we have a special mission from God. Sound familiar?All through school, we are brainwashed into believing that somehow our leaders are always right and certainly have our best interests at heart when they wave the flag and convince us to hate fellow human beings who stand in the way of making immense profits from war. As said, patriotism is the "last refuge of scoundrels."Matriotism is the opposite of patriotism ... not to destroy it, but to be a yin to its yang, and balance out the militarism of patriotism.Not everyone is a mother, but there is one universal truth that no one can dispute, no matter how hard they try (and believe me, some will try): Everyone has a mother! Mothers give life, and if the child is lucky, mothers nurture life. And if a man has had a nurturing mother he will already have a base of Matriotism.A Matriot loves his/her country but does not buy into the exploitive phrase of "My country right or wrong." (As Chesterton said, that's like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober.") A Matriot knows that her country can do a lot of things right, especially when the government is not involved. For example, I know of no other citizens of any country who are more personally generous than those of America. However, a Matriot also knows that when her country is wrong, it can be responsible for murdering thousands upon thousands of innocent and unsuspecting humans. A true Matriot would never drop an atomic bomb or bombs filled with white phosphorous, carpet-bomb cities and villages, or control drones from thousands of miles away to kill innocent men, women and children.There is one most important thing that Matriots would never do, however, and this is the key to stopping killing to solve problems: a Matriot would never send her child or another mother's child to fight nonsense wars ... and would march into a war herself that she considered just, to protect her child from harm. Aha! Matriots would fight their own battles, but take a dim view of having to do so, and would seldom resort to violence to solve conflict! Patriots cowardly hide behind the flag and eagerly send young people to die to fill their own pocketbooks.Women flocked to Camp Casey in August to run the huge enterprise and work for peace, and women from all over the US and the world have invited me to visit and speak and advocate for true and lasting peace. Men who are in touch with the Matriot inside them have also been important to the cause of eradicating war.Whether you are a male or female Matriot, Code Pink Alert, endorsed by Gold Star Families for Peace, is calling for an International Day of Peace on March 8 th ... called for, organized by, and supported by women. Women and men with Matriotic tendencies can get more information and endorse the call for peace at: www.womensaynotowar.org. It is past time for us Matriots to get together to stridently call for an end to the immoral bloodshed in Iraq.I know one thing from the bottom of my heart. My son Casey, who was an Eagle Scout and a true American patriot, was not served well by his idea of patriotism. I will never forgive myself for not trying harder to counteract the false patriotism he was raised on, with a true sense of Matriotism.I also know that the women of the world who don't have a voice, such as the mothers of Iraq who are struggling just to survive in their needlessly destroyed country, are counting on us women who do have voices to use them to end Bush's manifestly idiotic doctrine of pre-emptive wars of aggression based on the justification that "I think that country might be dangerous to me and my pals."War will end forever when we Matriots stand up and say: "No, I am not giving my child to the fake patriotism of the war machine, which chews up my flesh and blood to spit out obscene profits." It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. -Baha'u'llahMatriotism above all is a commitment to truth and a celebration of the dignity of all life. = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thanks, Alice. This is great. Blissings, Sam Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~ Rumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 It would seem that matriotism, then, is the making of one's own country easy prey for the patriots of another's.Best,Dan I dunno Danno,, which would "you" rather meet on a battlefield,,a platoon of young naive brainwashed patriotic rchins with misfiring hormones,,OR,, a platoon of righteously indignant mothers who've already endured the pain of childbirth and ready to inflict the same on those who would disrupt the results of their labors, with a load of lethal weapons? As Colonel (Brando) Kurtz said in "Apocalypse Now",, "The horror,,the horror!" The Muttor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Dear Alice,It would seem that matriotism, then, is the making of one's own country easy prey for the patriots of another's. Alas, dear Dan, there is some truth in that. I forw the post to show an ideal that someday may bring some balance. What men do not grasp is that every mother spends nine whole months to bring a new life into this world n men cn snuff it out in a second in a war. Nine months is a long time. It is not time efficient to destroy it wilfuuly - what an idiotic waste! Written by a woman who spent 3 years n 4 mos to produce 4 children n lose one in the making. Just try to grasp this, Dan, in yr own gut. love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Dear Alice, It would seem that matriotism, then, is the making of one's own country easy prey for the patriots of another's. Best, Dan > > From: IonaDove@... > Date: 2006/01/24 Tue PM 04:52:26 EST > To: JUNG-FIRE , Negative-Capability , > IonaDove@..., cbamford@..., nickyheron@..., > hasabook@..., wilmarsh@..., ionadove@..., > Oliviahob@..., jbrown@..., RWelles475@..., > rmsmoley@..., minibardo@..., cweldon@..., > jlawry@..., stephan@..., > elkephant@..., Jubihay@..., windrose@..., > davidmcrane@..., brewster.beach@..., > mary@... > Subject: Matritism > > Interesting! > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: _Jgembr0@..._ (mailto:Jgembr0@...) > Date: January 24, 2006 10:47:14 AM GMT-05:00 > To: _Jgembr0@..._ (mailto:Jgembr0@...) > Subject: matriotism > > > > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:21 PM > Subject: ' Matriotism' - by Sheehan > > > > I'm sure you know who Sheehan is, ( Geo. W. sure does!); however, she > has just come up with an excellent essay on a newer term, " Matriotism " . > " just in case you missed it " ~~ warmest regards, > > > > Matriotism - By Sheehan > Sunday 22 January 2006 > Much as I wish I could take credit for the word " Matriotism, " another woman > wrote to me and gave me the concept. I was so intrigued by the word that I > have been meditating on the possible ideology behind it, and a on new paradigm > for true and lasting peace in the world. > > Before I dive into the concept of Matriotism, let's explore the word > " patriotism. " Dictionary.com defines it as: love of country and willingness to > sacrifice for it. When we all know that patriotism in the US means: exploiting > others' love for country by sending them and their children off to sacrifice for > my bank balance! > > There have been volumes written about patriotism, defining it, supporting > it, challenging the notion of it, etc. I believe the notion of patriotism has > been expediently and nefariously exploited, and used to lead our nation into > scores of disastrous and needless wars. The idea of patriotism has virtually > wiped out entire generations of our precious young people and has allowed our > nation's leaders to commit mass murder on an unprecedented scale. The vile > sputum of " if you aren't with us, then you are against us " is basically the > epitome of patriotism gone wild. After the tragedy of 9/11, we were on our way > to becoming a fledgling Matriotic society until our leaders jumped on the > bandwagon of inappropriate and misguided vengeance to send our young people to > die and kill in two countries that were no threat to the USA or to our way of > life. The neocons exploited patriotism to fulfill their goals of imperialism > and plunder. > > This sort of patriotism begins when we enter kindergarten and learn the > nationalist " Pledge of Allegiance. " It transcends all sense when we are taught > the " Star Spangled Banner, " a hymn to war. In our history classes the genocide > of the Native American peoples is glossed over as we learn about the spread > of American Imperialism over our continent, though it wasn't named until the > 1840s, when the doctrine of Manifest Destiny was expounded to justify the > USA's conquest of and " civilizing " of Mexican territories and Native American > populations. Manifest Destiny sought to spread the " the boundaries of freedom " > to the American Continent, with the notion that we have a special mission from > God. Sound familiar? > > All through school, we are brainwashed into believing that somehow our > leaders are always right and certainly have our best interests at heart when they > wave the flag and convince us to hate fellow human beings who stand in the > way of making immense profits from war. As said, patriotism is > the " last refuge of scoundrels. " > > Matriotism is the opposite of patriotism ... not to destroy it, but to be a > yin to its yang, and balance out the militarism of patriotism. > > Not everyone is a mother, but there is one universal truth that no one can > dispute, no matter how hard they try (and believe me, some will try): Everyone > has a mother! Mothers give life, and if the child is lucky, mothers nurture > life. And if a man has had a nurturing mother he will already have a base of > Matriotism. > > A Matriot loves his/her country but does not buy into the exploitive phrase > of " My country right or wrong. " (As Chesterton said, that's like saying, " My > mother, drunk or sober. " ) A Matriot knows that her country can do a lot of > things right, especially when the government is not involved. For example, I > know of no other citizens of any country who are more personally generous than > those of America. However, a Matriot also knows that when her country is > wrong, it can be responsible for murdering thousands upon thousands of innocent > and unsuspecting humans. A true Matriot would never drop an atomic bomb or > bombs filled with white phosphorous, carpet-bomb cities and villages, or control > drones from thousands of miles away to kill innocent men, women and > children. > > There is one most important thing that Matriots would never do, however, and > this is the key to stopping killing to solve problems: a Matriot would never > send her child or another mother's child to fight nonsense wars ... and > would march into a war herself that she considered just, to protect her child > from harm. Aha! Matriots would fight their own battles, but take a dim view of > having to do so, and would seldom resort to violence to solve conflict! > Patriots cowardly hide behind the flag and eagerly send young people to die to fill > their own pocketbooks. > > Women flocked to Camp Casey in August to run the huge enterprise and work > for peace, and women from all over the US and the world have invited me to > visit and speak and advocate for true and lasting peace. Men who are in touch > with the Matriot inside them have also been important to the cause of > eradicating war. > > Whether you are a male or female Matriot, Code Pink Alert, endorsed by Gold > Star Families for Peace, is calling for an International Day of Peace on > March 8 th ... called for, organized by, and supported by women. Women and men > with Matriotic tendencies can get more information and endorse the call for > peace at: _www.womensaynotowar.org_ (http://www.womensaynotowar.org/) . It is > past time for us Matriots to get together to stridently call for an end to the > immoral bloodshed in Iraq. > > I know one thing from the bottom of my heart. My son Casey, who was an Eagle > Scout and a true American patriot, was not served well by his idea of > patriotism. I will never forgive myself for not trying harder to counteract the > false patriotism he was raised on, with a true sense of Matriotism. > > I also know that the women of the world who don't have a voice, such as the > mothers of Iraq who are struggling just to survive in their needlessly > destroyed country, are counting on us women who do have voices to use them to end > Bush's manifestly idiotic doctrine of pre-emptive wars of aggression > based on the justification that " I think that country might be dangerous to me > and my pals. " > > War will end forever when we Matriots stand up and say: " No, I am not giving > my child to the fake patriotism of the war machine, which chews up my flesh > and blood to spit out obscene profits. " > > > > It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather > for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind > its citizens. > -Baha'u'llah > > > Matriotism above all is a commitment to truth and a celebration of the > dignity of all life. > > > > = > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 A bit like one of the sisters called sentiment- Where is the other sister? > Interesting! > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: _Jgembr0@..._ (mailto:Jgembr0@...) > Date: January 24, 2006 10:47:14 AM GMT-05:00 > To: _Jgembr0@..._ (mailto:Jgembr0@...) > Subject: matriotism > > > > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:21 PM > Subject: ' Matriotism' - by Sheehan > > > > I'm sure you know who Sheehan is, ( Geo. W. sure does!); > however, she has just come up with an excellent essay on a newer term, > " Matriotism " . " just in case you missed it " ~~ warmest regards, > > > > Matriotism - By Sheehan > Sunday 22 January 2006 > Much as I wish I could take credit for the word " Matriotism, " another > woman wrote to me and gave me the concept. I was so intrigued by the > word that I have been meditating on the possible ideology behind it, > and a on new paradigm for true and lasting peace in the world. > > Before I dive into the concept of Matriotism, let's explore the word > " patriotism. " Dictionary.com defines it as: love of country and > willingness to sacrifice for it. When we all know that patriotism in > the US means: exploiting others' love for country by sending them and > their children off to sacrifice for my bank balance! > > There have been volumes written about patriotism, defining it, > supporting it, challenging the notion of it, etc. I believe the notion > of patriotism has been expediently and nefariously exploited, and > used to lead our nation into scores of disastrous and needless wars. > The idea of patriotism has virtually wiped out entire generations of > our precious young people and has allowed our nation's leaders to > commit mass murder on an unprecedented scale. The vile sputum of " if > you aren't with us, then you are against us " is basically the epitome > of patriotism gone wild. After the tragedy of 9/11, we were on our > way to becoming a fledgling Matriotic society until our leaders > jumped on the bandwagon of inappropriate and misguided vengeance to > send our young people to die and kill in two countries that were no > threat to the USA or to our way of life. The neocons exploited > patriotism to fulfill their goals of imperialism and plunder. > > This sort of patriotism begins when we enter kindergarten and learn > the nationalist " Pledge of Allegiance. " It transcends all sense when > we are taught the " Star Spangled Banner, " a hymn to war. In our > history classes the genocide of the Native American peoples is > glossed over as we learn about the spread of American Imperialism over > our continent, though it wasn't named until the 1840s, when the > doctrine of Manifest Destiny was expounded to justify the USA's > conquest of and " civilizing " of Mexican territories and Native > American populations. Manifest Destiny sought to spread the " the > boundaries of freedom " to the American Continent, with the notion > that we have a special mission from God. Sound familiar? > > All through school, we are brainwashed into believing that somehow > our leaders are always right and certainly have our best interests at > heart when they wave the flag and convince us to hate fellow human > beings who stand in the way of making immense profits from war. As > said, patriotism is the " last refuge of scoundrels. " > > Matriotism is the opposite of patriotism ... not to destroy it, but > to be a yin to its yang, and balance out the militarism of > patriotism. > > Not everyone is a mother, but there is one universal truth that no > one can dispute, no matter how hard they try (and believe me, some > will try): Everyone has a mother! Mothers give life, and if the child > is lucky, mothers nurture life. And if a man has had a nurturing > mother he will already have a base of Matriotism. > > A Matriot loves his/her country but does not buy into the exploitive > phrase of " My country right or wrong. " (As Chesterton said, that's > like saying, " My mother, drunk or sober. " ) A Matriot knows that her > country can do a lot of things right, especially when the government > is not involved. For example, I know of no other citizens of any > country who are more personally generous than those of America. > However, a Matriot also knows that when her country is wrong, it can > be responsible for murdering thousands upon thousands of innocent and > unsuspecting humans. A true Matriot would never drop an atomic bomb or > bombs filled with white phosphorous, carpet-bomb cities and villages, > or control > drones from thousands of miles away to kill innocent men, women and > children. > > There is one most important thing that Matriots would never do, > however, and this is the key to stopping killing to solve problems: a > Matriot would never send her child or another mother's child to fight > nonsense wars ... and would march into a war herself that she > considered just, to protect her child from harm. Aha! Matriots would > fight their own battles, but take a dim view of having to do so, and > would seldom resort to violence to solve conflict! Patriots cowardly > hide behind the flag and eagerly send young people to die to fill > their own pocketbooks. > > Women flocked to Camp Casey in August to run the huge enterprise and > work for peace, and women from all over the US and the world have > invited me to visit and speak and advocate for true and lasting > peace. Men who are in touch with the Matriot inside them have also > been important to the cause of eradicating war. > > Whether you are a male or female Matriot, Code Pink Alert, endorsed > by Gold Star Families for Peace, is calling for an International Day > of Peace on March 8 th ... called for, organized by, and supported by > women. Women and men with Matriotic tendencies can get more > information and endorse the call for peace at: > _www.womensaynotowar.org_ (http://www.womensaynotowar.org/) . It is > past time for us Matriots to get together to stridently call for an > end to the immoral bloodshed in Iraq. > > I know one thing from the bottom of my heart. My son Casey, who was > an Eagle Scout and a true American patriot, was not served well by > his idea of patriotism. I will never forgive myself for not trying > harder to counteract the false patriotism he was raised on, with a > true sense of Matriotism. > > I also know that the women of the world who don't have a voice, such > as the mothers of Iraq who are struggling just to survive in their > needlessly destroyed country, are counting on us women who do have > voices to use them to end Bush's manifestly idiotic doctrine of > pre-emptive wars of aggression based on the justification that " I > think that country might be dangerous to me and my pals. " > > War will end forever when we Matriots stand up and say: " No, I am not > giving my child to the fake patriotism of the war machine, which > chews up my flesh and blood to spit out obscene profits. " > > > > It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but > rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one > country and mankind its citizens. -Baha'u'llah > > > Matriotism above all is a commitment to truth and a celebration of > the dignity of all life. > > > > = > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 We should encourage war games for the old men so they can quench their thirst for violence without hurting anyone...maybe it would give them enough insight, not just political will.The sad thing at all times, however is that wisdom is in such small supply in the halls of power.The only other way is to put uniforms on them and show them reality in the front lines. Which is why I support mandatory military experience for *everybody,* no exceptions for college, marriage, etc, and only physical disability would prevent it. As for conscientious objectors, they could serve in military hospitals or the Peace Corps or something similar. Men and women inclusive. Blissings, Sam Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~ Rumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Dear Mutt, My solution is to allow only people who have lost someone they love in war, to go to war. I imagine what would happen is that after looking at each other as 'enemy" both sides would put down their weapon and weep together. How could anyone do anything but weep at waste of human lives? We have lost, as a people our conception of the miracle of life we have each been given. But we send raw teenagers to fight and brainwash them ( I know how that works, I fell for it in Officer Training, USMC) then we send them out to see how brave they can be before they die themselves for some old man's reasons. We should encourage war games for the old men so they can quench their thirst for violence without hurting anyone...maybe it would give them enough insight, not just political will.The sad thing at all times, however is that wisdom is in such small supply in the halls of power.The only other way is to put uniforms on them and show them reality in the front lines. Toni Re: Matritism It would seem that matriotism, then, is the making of one's own country easy prey for the patriots of another's.Best,Dan I dunno Danno,, which would "you" rather meet on a battlefield,,a platoon of young naive brainwashed patriotic rchins with misfiring hormones,,OR,, a platoon of righteously indignant mothers who've already endured the pain of childbirth and ready to inflict the same on those who would disrupt the results of their labors, with a load of lethal weapons? As Colonel (Brando) Kurtz said in "Apocalypse Now",, "The horror,,the horror!" The Muttor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 G Heyward wrote: Dear , I have difficulty understanding this. See below. Dear , at 01:06 AM 2/1/2006, you wrote: >I agree that this is true about *a* theory of evolution - as I have said >before, it is pretty clear that complex species are somehow derived from >simpler - but it is not clear that it is true of Darwin's theory of >evolution. Darwin's theory require no intelligence, no objective >consciousness - just random accidents. Neither does any other - all evolutionary science proceeds from the materialist standpoint. I was not suggesting that an evolutionary system requires an inbuilt metaphysical component - but simply that the operation and function of evolution does not preclude the idea of an objective consciousness - indeed such a notion stands outside the boundaries of evolutionary thinking, ie, the two notions are unrelated, the existence or non existence of either one does not affect the other. No more say than is the existence or non existence of god implied within the carefully understood mechanism of genetic replication. We might argue forever regarding the projected implications of a technical system which appears out of nowhere. A "technical system that appears out of nowhere." Techne = art. A human, intentional creation. You are suggesting here that there is a completely unconscious yet fully and indeed (if I can use that term) brilliantly functioning systematic whole that "just is". But the point is that it exists, that it is the way things work. Why it is that way and no other might be inferred from the physical laws in place, but why it exists at all is a question outside the bounds of the investigative science. That such questions "ought" to be relevant to the science is a moot point. Expecting scientists to also implicate particular philosophical ideals through their work is the very reason why they do not do so. Such things lie outside science as a practice. Then we end up with silly elementary school type questions like: "Would god create a universe in which atomic bombs were possible?" I think it is time we started to think a little more sensibly about the world. Some people are - but their voices are few. >I had been in the habit of thinking of Darwin as a straight-forward, >ingenuous scientist. This was naive of me. It has been pointed out to me >recently that there is every reason to believe that Darwin was in fact a >political philosopher of sorts, with a political teaching and a political >agenda. That teaching was eugenics, and that agenda was improvement of the >race through selection and selective breeding. Unfortunately for the notion, if selective breeding any more specialised than what nature has done already brought about further improvements to anything, then nature would be doing it - would have done it already. To me this implies that nature is intentional. Your own use of language implies it - you say that nature does things. Machines do not do things, properly speaking. As the Dan Ackroid character says in _Driving Miss Daisy_, cars do not behave - they are behaved upon. It appears to be a problem. It is one of the talking points of the neo-evolutionists contra ID that nature does *not*, in fact, produce perfection. This leaves the works of nature open to improvement - by means of physics, eugenics, genetic engineering, what-have-you. Apparently there is a balance in such things which ought not be tampered with. In electronics it is a well understood law that selectivity is gained at the cost of information. Nature seems to be organised to maximise over the broadest range of its operations. Good housekeeping practice. > >What it does do, and this is what frightens most people, >is that it > negates > >most of our infantile ideas of "God out there" and some >sort of moral law > >which flows from on high. > >Those ideas are archetypal and necessary, and hence will not disappear. In >America, they are reflected in the resurgence of Christian fundamentalism. >Europe has chosen a different path, preferring to import its >fundamentalsim in the form of radical Islamists. The political effects of knowledge are the problem of the city. If the city should decide that knowledge is expendable for the sake of political calm - then yes, we will be back haunting our cellars with our vials and stove. But that ain't gonna happen and you know it. I'm not sure that I do. As you say, nature does indeed appear to be self-regulating, and we are part of nature. I am not convinced that there is any "arc of history" trending toward "progress." What we have been before, we could be again. I have been thinking about what might bring it about - global warming perhaps. Regardless of the widespread discussion of and adoption by the ignorant of such childish systems of belief - or shall we say, adoption of their childish aspects - the facts of daily life are overwhelming and such ideas are at best in the minority. The world might be heading straight down the path towards technological madness - no... actually it is already there. But to want to swap it for religious madness is simply blindness, a turning away from the brink our awareness has brought us to, a turning back to childhood and the demons of the past. If it works, if it fits, it is not madness. I see people on a daily basis that could, for all intents and purposes, step right into the thirteenth century, no questions asked. If there is to be a future - ie, any future I want my descendants to be a part of - then it damn well better be a future in which truth is paramount, a future where responsibility is accepted. This means learning to live with knowledge, not deny its potentials. And that doesn't mean mobile phones for everyone or anti gravity cars or vacations on the moon. It means a future in which technology becomes secondary to human truths. But you are wishing for a pre-modern era! Technology began taking over just a few hundred years ago. I expect you would have been happier in Periclean Athens, and fit in well. This is, as you know, a compliment. My impression is that you love the truths of science and don't want to give them up, even though you are alive to the problem of technology. Also, you grow impatient with stupid people and dealing with stupid people. The latter problem you will just have to live with - nature must have a purpose for fools, as there are so many of them. As for the former, I don't think that you can have your "free inquiry" without the technology derived from it. As you know, my argument is that technology was part of the deal. The people traditionally hate and distrust the philosophers - troublemakers who question the gods, undermine the old ways, and teach the young men to beat up their fathers. Socrates claims that, if the philosopher dragged the people into the light, they would kill him for his pains. Aristotle suggests that the philosopher's political ally, to the degree that he can be said to have one, is the gentleman, not the plebian. What to do? Offer the people a bargain - you tolerate our inquiries, you allow philosophy into the city, and we will use it to help you - to cure your diseases, to make you wealthy, to give you a gravity car and a vacation on the moon. That was the deal - and that is the reason that science is tolerated at all. But the old tension still remains, and is showing itself again. But that ain't gonna happen either. Thus I live as quietly as possible and think only about that which excites my mind. I told someone many years ago that I would rather be dead than live in the future. I have found no reason to retract that remark. >Given that needs are needs, and that the beliefs are among the needs, the >kind of discussion you call for cannot be held outside the scientific >community - hence scientists speak up in public, are blindsided by the >reaction, and retreat in puzzlement. If they would speak to the public at >large, they better wise up. On the whole, the problem is that investigative science has reached its limits in many areas and now stares out across a void which can only be crossed by accepting certain philosophic principles. Science cannot do this - thus it idles its time away upon fantasies of science and technological exploitation of discovered principles. We have come to the end of the road, you see. In many areas science has finally met the dark spectre of its own emptiness. Now it too, like the lone man without hope, must discover - and accept - what lies beneath. But this does not implicate regression to childhood. It requires much more than that. Jung knew this. I think that Jung knew this with respect to the individual. But I do not see that Jung ruled out what you call regression to childhood for those for whom that is the right way - and there appear to be many such. I do not see Jung advocating an effort to sort of enlighten everyone, or to move humanity en masse to some higher level of consciousness. I see Jungians advocating this, but not Jung. I can only compare, for example, what Jungians say about the age of Aquarius to the few things that Jung said about it. Jung's dismissive and disappointed remarks about the limits of politics show me that, well, he knew the limits of politics. A nation cannot be "enlightened." A city may not be as bad as a nation, but it can't be enlightened either. "Science" cannot discover what you say it now must discover (although some scientists might). Science is not a person - science is a method. And, as you say, it is a method that excludes from the beginning any effort to discover what lies beneath or, for that matter, above. best,, Dan regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 .. .. .. .. ... hoping for a fair game of poker, don't count on encountering such when other players claim to have a wild-card in every hand. .. .. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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