Re: Why do some suffer while others get relief?

[Guest guest]

If I may, try ditching the " fault " idea, and thinking about

" responsibility " .

You may find it links in rather well to the idea of playing with this:

If nobody is responsible for anything

Then everybody is responsible for everything :-)

Just a thought

H

Why do some suffer while others get relief?

> If you don't find yourself being " off the hook " ...are you a screw up?

>

> Is it your fault?

>

> Are you responsible for the failure of getting off the hook?

>

> Is it just that you didn't try hard enough........

> didn't do the Work sufficiently well enough.......

> to achieve what you believe others have achieved?

>

> Why do some get relief and others continue to suffer?

>

> This line of ... inquiry ... is another entry portal that has been

> employed for well over 2500 years.

***I'm interested in trying this out.

Why do some suffer while others find relief?

This question is difficult to answer without separating people into 'I',

'Me', 'You' and 'Them.' My head is spinning from all the recent posts

about how there is no " I " ... a concept which I studied a few years ago,

and grasped for a moment, but eludes me again. So how to answer this

question?

Well, I suppose I'll just answer automatically with all the beliefs I

have at this moment, and then look at that...? (Not really sure how else

to do this).

So... Why do some suffer while others get relief?

It seems to me a question of so many factors... DNA, which contributes

to someone's tendency to think in certain ways versus others; life

experience... for example, BK having the DNA/ life experiences that made

her the type to 'know what hurts'... and having experiences that lead

her to sink lower and lower in hell, until something in her just knew

that it was attachment to thoughts creating her misery. Or the Dali

Lama... having the DNA (nature) and life experiences (nurture) that

caused him to come to the same realization... perhaps going higher and

higher in heaven until he had the realization.

So, basically it comes down to nature and nurture, which no one

'chooses' or 'controls'.

I remember when I was a child, thinking... 'wait a minute... no one is

at fault for anything... not people who commit crimes, not me when I'm

mean...' because of this whole nature / nurture thing. And then someone

telling me that people have CHOICES, so it is their fault. I believed

this person for a while, but now I'm coming back to the same feeling...

that nothing is anybody's fault.

Sp, why do some suffer while others get relief? Just a luck of the draw,

I suppose...

What do others think? Andy?

..

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[Guest guest]

Hi Churyl,

Why do some suffer while others find relief?

This question is difficult to answer without separating people into

'I', 'Me', 'You' and 'Them.' My head is spinning from all the recent

posts about how there is no " I " ... a concept which I studied a few

years ago, and grasped for a moment, but eludes me again. So how to

answer this question?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

*****I fear that I am responsible for contributing a substantial

amount of those posts. Sorry. :-))

You summarize the situation very, very well.

You say that it is a function of so many factors. I see two big

" classes " : the innate and the momentary wiring of the brain. I call

these two, after my guru's teachings, the " innate

conditioning-in-the-moment. " Part of it, the innate, you call the

DNA. But even that can change, can be altered by radiation and other

" external " events. And then there is the nurture part, the

conditioning-in-the-moment. While the human brain is very similar to

a computer, it differs in one dramatic way:

Unlike a pc, the human brain, while awake, is always receiving input

and this constant stream of input (via " eye, ear, nose, tongue, body,

mind, " to coin a phrase from a zen sutra) alters the programming,

usually in very subtle ways, sometimes in major ones (think about 9/11).

And then you point out that NONE of this is in " our control. " Quite

so. It can be seen that some are.......fated......destined.....to

suffer while others, by Grace, experience relief.

All this can be Seen by watching the thoughts, not getting involved in

them, just observing. The great 20th century teacher, Jiddhu

Krishnamurti, commented on this process:

" What will open the door is daily awareness and attention -- awareness

of how we speak, what we say, how we walk, what we think...Then

perhaps, if you are lucky, the window will open and the breeze will

come in. Or it may not. It depends on the state of your mind. And

that state of mind can be understood only by yourself, by watching it

and never trying to shape it, never taking sides, never opposing,

never agreeing, never justifying, never condemning, never judging --

which means watching it without any choice. And out of this

choiceless awareness perhaps the door will open and you will know that

dimension in which there is no conflict and no time. " (From " Freedom

From the Known " )

But note that he points out " IF you are lucky " ...and that luck is a

BIG part of the equation. Yes, it is, as you point out, the luck of

the draw. Entirely. What you think, do, say, ... it is all scripted,

arising out of the innate conditioning-in-the-moment, and in the

construction of that, you have no say.

Sure, there are choices. Choices happen. I pick vanilla over

chocolate ice cream. A choice. But it isn't made " freely. " It is a

function of the programming at the moment, arising out of what zen

calls " the particular time, place, and circumstance. " Those three

things, over which we have no choice, determine the choices or

decisions made. (Zen, Advaita and Taoism are the three big nondual

teachings.)

Yes, it is nobody's fault. Or, if it is, it is the " fault " of

Totality (or God, Consciousness, the Energy Field). I'm not sure it

makes much sense of talk about " God's fault, " but some Advaita

teachers do. Either way, we're stuck with it. Every movement, each

arising and decaying is a function of Its movement.

At this point some throw up their hands in frustration, saying " What

GOOD is this teaching?? It sucks! It makes me a victim, helpless. "

First, note that it doesn't " make " one helpless or a victim. That

state is already insured by being born. ;-))

Secondly, there is a potential for escape, which is why I said that

this line of questioning, if it is your fate to escape, can be a

portal to relief. It all depends on what is in the cards for you.

The path of knowledge, jnana, one of the three yoga paths created by

the rishis more than 5000 years ago, is considered the " last path, "

the one that is engaged in prior to release. So, if you find yourself

drawn to it...rejoice! (The other two paths, the path of bhakti ~

devotion ~ and the path of karma ~ doing good works ~ each play their

own role...which path one is drawn to, if any, is a function

of..............you guessed it! The innate conditioning-in-the-moment.)

~ Andy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So... Why do some suffer while others get relief?

It seems to me a question of so many factors... DNA, which contributes

to someone's tendency to think in certain ways versus others; life

experience... for example, BK having the DNA/ life experiences that made

her the type to 'know what hurts'... and having experiences that lead

her to sink lower and lower in hell, until something in her just knew

that it was attachment to thoughts creating her misery. Or the Dali

Lama... having the DNA (nature) and life experiences (nurture) that

caused him to come to the same realization... perhaps going higher and

higher in heaven until he had the realization.

So, basically it comes down to nature and nurture, which no one

'chooses' or 'controls'.

I remember when I was a child, thinking... 'wait a minute... no one is

at fault for anything... not people who commit crimes, not me when I'm

mean...' because of this whole nature / nurture thing. And then someone

telling me that people have CHOICES, so it is their fault. I believed

this person for a while, but now I'm coming back to the same feeling...

that nothing is anybody's fault.

Sp, why do some suffer while others get relief? Just a luck of the draw,

I suppose...

What do others think? Andy?

[Guest guest]

>

> If I may, try ditching the " fault " idea, and thinking about

> " responsibility " .

>

> You may find it links in rather well to the idea of playing with this:

>

> If nobody is responsible for anything

> Then everybody is responsible for everything :-)

Responsibility can only exist if one could do otherwise.

When it is discovered exactly why one does what one does, then the

question of responsibility ceases to be (although most people and all

functional societies operate out of the delussory belief that

individuals are responsible for their actions). It is a very

deep-seated belief, but one that does not bear up to close examination.

[Guest guest]

You know there's a huge assumption in the subject line of this post. Why?

Some people suffer: yes, that appears true

Others get relief: indeed, but what about the 'get' part. Do they 'get' it?

- yes, it appears so. It could equally be given freely, or it could be

obtained through a mechanism we are exploring, relief can be had when the

'individual' does the work.

And thank you for your story Andy :-)

Another way of putting it, would be

If no-ONE is responsible for anything

Then every-ONE is responsible for everything

H

Re: Why do some suffer while others get relief?

>

> If I may, try ditching the " fault " idea, and thinking about

> " responsibility " .

>

> You may find it links in rather well to the idea of playing with this:

>

> If nobody is responsible for anything

> Then everybody is responsible for everything :-)

Responsibility can only exist if one could do otherwise.

When it is discovered exactly why one does what one does, then the

question of responsibility ceases to be (although most people and all

functional societies operate out of the delussory belief that

individuals are responsible for their actions). It is a very

deep-seated belief, but one that does not bear up to close examination.

..

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=45466/stime=1203902067/nc1=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=5202316>

[Guest guest]

I find that I need to stay present to the uninvestigated thought, just

keep staying with it even though so much of me wants to leave, or get

busy doing something.

But when I keep staying present, keep breathing deeply in and out, keep

saying 'yes', finally, eventually, a smile erupts from someplace deep,

and my eyes are shiny, and often a chuckle comes, and suddenly I am

feeling lighter than air.

Sometimes some resistance will still arise when I encounter what I used

to resist around the previously uninvestigated thought, but usually

that's because it's tied to another thought.

Bi-Polar

[Guest guest]

You know there's a huge assumption in the subject line of this post. Why?

Some people suffer: yes, that appears true

Others get relief: indeed, but what about the 'get' part. Do they

'get' it?

- yes, it appears so. It could equally be given freely, or it could be

obtained through a mechanism we are exploring, relief can be had when the

'individual' does the work.

****No question about it. The Work, or prayer, or meditation, can be

the portal through which relief happens. If...if there is a thought to

" do " one of them. That is the lynchpin on which all this hoopla depends.

It is just not possible to make oneself have a thought or a desire.

This was pointed out centuries ago by the 19th century German

foolosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer who noted, quite sagely (and please

excuse the sexism, the man was a dude of his times, not ours):

" It is possible for a man to do what he wants, but not want what he

wants. "

[Guest guest]

I find that I need to stay present to the uninvestigated thought, just

keep staying with it even though so much of me wants to leave, or get

busy doing something.

*****Lovely, . Lovely. It's nice to hear you getting this relief.

But when I keep staying present, keep breathing deeply in and out,

keep saying 'yes', finally, eventually, a smile erupts from someplace

deep, and my eyes are shiny, and often a chuckle comes, and suddenly I

am feeling lighter than air.

*****Yes. There is a release, a Seeing through to Reality and not

thought. Or, in BK's words, sanity. :-)

Sometimes some resistance will still arise when I encounter what I

used to resist around the previously uninvestigated thought, but

usually that's because it's tied to another thought.

*****Charlotte Joko Beck, an iconoclastic zen teacher, was known for

saying that, if deep-seated, the process you describe above might need

to be repeated a thousand times in order to be finally dispensed with.

But each repetition diminished the intensity of the psychic load,

thus making it easier and easier to persist.

[Guest guest]

Are you sure? About the Schopenhauer thing, I mean?

Appearances are simply appearances

Love

H

Re: Why do some suffer while others get relief?

..

You know there's a huge assumption in the subject line of this post. Why?

Some people suffer: yes, that appears true

Others get relief: indeed, but what about the 'get' part. Do they

'get' it?

- yes, it appears so. It could equally be given freely, or it could be

obtained through a mechanism we are exploring, relief can be had when the

'individual' does the work.

****No question about it. The Work, or prayer, or meditation, can be

the portal through which relief happens. If...if there is a thought to

" do " one of them. That is the lynchpin on which all this hoopla depends.

It is just not possible to make oneself have a thought or a desire.

This was pointed out centuries ago by the 19th century German

foolosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer who noted, quite sagely (and please

excuse the sexism, the man was a dude of his times, not ours):

" It is possible for a man to do what he wants, but not want what he

wants. "

[Guest guest]

We do what we do based on our beliefs. That is why questioning our

beliefs changes our feelings and allows us to see different

possibilities of action. Beliefs lead to feelings, thoughts and

actions.

The Work helps us hone in on the set of beliefs that lead to joy and

right action for a happy life. Once you're their just flow in the

bliss of reality. When the bliss is disturbed, question the

underlying belief and allow it to shift to a more bliss enhancing

belief. Then the feelings and actions follow.

> >

> > If I may, try ditching the " fault " idea, and thinking about

> > " responsibility " .

> >

> > You may find it links in rather well to the idea of playing with

this:

> >

> > If nobody is responsible for anything

> > Then everybody is responsible for everything :-)

>

>

>

> Responsibility can only exist if one could do otherwise.

>

> When it is discovered exactly why one does what one does, then the

> question of responsibility ceases to be (although most people and

all

> functional societies operate out of the delussory belief that

> individuals are responsible for their actions). It is a very

> deep-seated belief, but one that does not bear up to close

examination.

>