Re: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old.

June 9, 2006

Hi Sam.

If you will read this thread chronologicaly you will see that Terry and I were trying to convey to Jeanne that the statement by her husbands doctor, "but that he could only take it for 5-6 years...and after that ????....well...that sounded pretty grim..." was not a correct thing to say to her and we cited that many men have taken ADT and survived more than 5 or 6 years.----------------------------------------------------------

Jeanne wrote:

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement, . The doctor told him in the original visit that Hormone therapy was a possiblity depending on the results, but that he could only take it for 5-6 years...and after that ????....well...that sounded pretty grim...

------------------------------------------------------

wrote:

The doctor was incorrect. We have men on this list that have been on ADT (Androgen Deprivation Therapy) for 10 years or more. I intend to stay on it until it loses it's efficiency (as indicated by rising PSA) and then choose from several different protocols for the next battle and maybe by then something new will come along. This is still the first quarter. The game is far from over. Odds are something else will take me before the PCa does. Remember what Carlin observed. "Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over an extended period of time." :-)------------------------------------------------------

Terry wrote:

Hi Jeanne,

is right. There are many fine examples of men who have managed to control the disease with what is termed ADT (Androgen Deprivation Therapy) for many years. If you have the time and the interest to read a truly inspiring story, have a look at Ric Mastens tale starting at http://www.ric-masten.net/PCaOdyssey/01pc1999.html He was diagnosed with metastasized disease – the cancer had spread to the bone – in 1999. He is still very much with us and in fact has resuscitated his career as a Poet, traveling across the US recently from his California base for readings in New York.

I must say that one thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time. If I may refer you to another wonderful piece of writing about this issue, at http://tinyurl.com/6nwg7 It is a piece by Jay Gould and although it is not about prostate cancer, because he was diagnosed in 1982 with abdominal mesothelioma, a rare and very deadly form of cancer associated with exposure to asbestos he beat the cancer for 20 years, finally passing on May 20, 2002, from an unconnected problem. He not only gave all of us a valuable lesson in beating the odds, the piece also gave me an understanding of some of the issues about how important it is to establish the range of survival rather than median or average survival rates.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sam.

Terry and I were trying to prevent a misconception that might have been reached from the doctor's remark.

It is unfortunate that someone else posted a reply to this thread that had nothing to do with the subject and by doing so hijacked the train of thought.

I apologize for any concern this has caused you.

"il faut d'abord durer" Hemingway

To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old.

I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average.

When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late.

To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon me.)

Terry Herbert wrote:

One thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time.

June 9, 2006

Sam

I won’t pardon you for your

rudeness. There is no excuse for that and it is in breach of the most basic

rule of this List.

You frequently post misleading information

and I think you are wrong to do so.

You said in one post recently that

<snip> According to the NIH

and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men

that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting

better though not great enough to shout about. <snip>

I asked you where you had got this information

from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly

misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also

took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent

where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of men

who would die from the disease – a pretty serious error.

You subsequently said, in response to

another post from another member, correcting another of your errors:

<snip> I need to apologize to the

group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My

mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the

time <to me> but i guess what i mean doesn't come out exactly as

planned.

No excuses, I am wrong most of the time

anymore.

apology's to all ! <snip>

So my question to you is “Why do you

keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?”

As to the point you make in this post and

another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have

never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how can we second guess

any professional diag? <snip>

I would say that this is one time when you

are not wrong, but that leads to my second question – who is it that

advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy?

I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t

me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate

information for people to gain a greater understanding of this disease that we

all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their

medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to.

Here’s something to ponder on –

it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature:

It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he

doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows

everything

I freely acknowledge that

although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched

the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last

question is – have you?

All the best

Terry Herbert

in Melbourne Australia

Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason

3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23%

My site is at www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za

It is a tragedy of the world that no one

knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is

that he knows everything. Joyce Carey

From: ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ]

On Behalf Of sam mcdaniel

Sent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PM

To: ProstateCancerSupport

Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old.

I guess people must be mad at the

most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology

Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average.

When people give advice for watchfull

waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are

recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are

we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived

longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and

are gone because it was too late.

To those people I

would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view,

unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon

me.)

Terry

Herbert wrote:

One thing that really annoys me is

to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease

that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live

five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time.

June 9, 2006

Hello Terry I feel that if we did more reading, the fewer mistakes we would make, we are not perfect. Prostate Brachytherapy made complicated is a texts book doctors nurse and all that has anything to do with treating patience with seed implant. Through out the book they will touch on the 5-year you speak of. I will not say all doctors. But the one I have spoke to has explain to me that 5 years is a average period they use to evaluate a patience. Because in this time frame, will let them know if the patience is truly improving, at a standstill, or if is getting worse. I myself has reach my third year and all is well, but they will continual through the next 2 years keeping a close watch incase my cancer re-activate. One of the things they do is do lab testing each month sometime as often as 3 times a month just to ensure thing are still stable. If you would like the ISBN: number so you may order the book,

let me know.Terry Herbert wrote: Sam I won’t pardon you for your rudeness. There is no excuse

for that and it is in breach of the most basic rule of this List. You frequently post misleading information and I think you are wrong to do so. You said in one post recently that <snip> According to the NIH and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting better though not great enough to shout about. <snip> I asked you where you had got this information from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of

men who would die from the disease – a pretty serious error. You subsequently said, in response to another post from another member, correcting another of your errors: <snip> I need to apologize to the group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the time <to me> but i guess what

i mean doesn't come out exactly as planned. No excuses, I am wrong most of the time anymore. apology's to all ! <snip> So my question to you is “Why do you keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?” As to the point you make in this post and another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how can we second guess any professional diag? <snip> I would say that this is one time when you are not wrong, but that leads to my second question – who is it that advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy? I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate information for people to gain a greater understanding of this disease that we all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to. Here’s something to ponder on – it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature: It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything I freely acknowledge that although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last

question is – have you? All the best Terry Herbert in Melbourne Australia Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason 3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23% My site is at www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za It is a

tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything. Joyce Carey From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of sam mcdanielSent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old. I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average. When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late. To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my

head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon me.) Terry Herbert wrote: One thing that really

annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time.

June 9, 2006

You know Terry I really dont need your pardon. Yes I did appoligize not because I was wrong on all points. I made a mis-statement on the number of 230,000 Thats it! I just tried to cool you down a little bit because you are quite hostile at times. I think there may be a few people around here that understand what im trying to say. However im not an MD and therefore not qualified to offer medical advice on anything greater than a splinter removal. Are you an MD? We are just people with opinions, you have yours and I have mine and they certainlly are not compatable.With that said why dont we both just take a time out?Terry Herbert wrote: Sam I won’t pardon you for your rudeness. There is no excuse for that and it is in breach of the most basic rule of this List. You frequently post misleading information and I think you are wrong to do so. You said in one post recently that <snip> According to the NIH and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting better though not great enough to shout about. <snip>

I asked you where you had got this information from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of men who would die from the disease – a pretty serious error. You subsequently said, in response to another post from another member, correcting another of your errors: <snip> I need to apologize to the group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the time <to me> but i guess what i mean doesn't come out exactly as planned. No excuses, I am wrong most of the time anymore. apology's to all ! <snip> So my question to you is “Why do you keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?” As to the point you make in this post and another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how

can we second guess any professional diag? <snip> I would say that this is one time when you are not wrong, but that leads to my second question – who is it that advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy? I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate information for people to

gain a greater understanding of this disease that we all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to. Here’s something to ponder on – it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature: It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he

doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything I freely acknowledge that although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last question is – have you? All the best Terry Herbert in Melbourne Australia

Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason 3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23% My site is at www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything. Joyce Carey From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of sam mcdanielSent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs

old. I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average. When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold

on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late. To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon me.) Terry Herbert wrote: One thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time. __________________________________________________

June 11, 2006

You are absolutely correct. Often the 5 year figure is an arbitrary figure that researchers have set up to evaluate treatments for cancer. Has more validity to cancers other than breast or prostate. Problems happen when those numbers are misinterpreted. The good thing is that for prostate cancer many researchers are looking at a period greater than 5 years.

Kathy

-----Original Message-----From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Clarence Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:24 AMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: RE: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old.

Hello Terry

I feel that if we did more reading, the fewer mistakes we would make, we are not perfect.

Prostate Brachytherapy made complicated is a texts book doctors nurse and all that has anything to do with treating patience with seed implant. Through out the book they will touch on the 5-year you speak of.

I will not say all doctors. But the one I have spoke to has explain to me that 5 years is a average period they use to evaluate a patience. Because in this time frame, will let them know if the patience is truly improving, at a standstill, or if is getting worse. I myself has reach my third year and all is well, but they will continual through the next 2 years keeping a close watch incase my cancer re-activate. One of the things they do is do lab testing each month sometime as often as 3 times a month just to ensure thing are still stable.

If you would like the ISBN: number so you may order the book, let me know.Terry Herbert wrote:

Sam

I won’t pardon you for your rudeness. There is no excuse for that and it is in breach of the most basic rule of this List.

You frequently post misleading information and I think you are wrong to do so.

You said in one post recently that

<snip> According to the NIH and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting better though not great enough to shout about. <snip>

I asked you where you had got this information from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of men who would die from the disease – a pretty serious error.

You subsequently said, in response to another post from another member, correcting another of your errors:

<snip> I need to apologize to the group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the time <to me> but i guess what i mean doesn't come out exactly as planned.

No excuses, I am wrong most of the time anymore.

apology's to all ! <snip>

So my question to you is “Why do you keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?”

As to the point you make in this post and another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how can we second guess any professional diag? <snip>

I would say that this is one time when you are not wrong, but that leads to my second question – who is it that advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy?

I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate information for people to gain a greater understanding of this disease that we all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to.

Here’s something to ponder on – it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature:

It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything

I freely acknowledge that although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last question is – have you?

All the best

Terry Herbert

in Melbourne Australia

Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason 3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23%

My site is at www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za

It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything. Joyce Carey

From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of sam mcdanielSent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old.

I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average.

When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late.

To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon me.)

Terry Herbert wrote:

One thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time.

June 11, 2006

Please tell me how i misinturped this! Its current data for survival rates and very plain to read. Its not my data I dont keep data. If this is wrong, show me where, and then we can take up the question with th ACS and NIH and see if they will change it. http://training.seer.cancer.gov/ss_module02_prostate/unit01_sec05_sur... Prognosis is strongly affected by the grade of tumor. Involvement of seminal vesicles is an important prognostic indicator. Grade Vs. 5-Year Survival (from Textbook of Clinical Oncology, third edition) G1 60% G2 35% G3 15% G4 5% Stage Vs. 5-Year Disease-free Survival with Treatment (from the National Cancer Institute's Physician Data Query system, July, 2002) American Urologic Association (AUA) Staging System A1 occult cancer--usually not

treated A2 > 90% B1 85% (50% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) B2 85% (37% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) C 48% D 21% (all metastatic cases) http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1X_What_are_the_key... Among men diagnosed with prostate cancer, nearly 100% survive at least 5 years, 93% survive at least 10 years, and 77% survive at least 15 years. These figures include all stages and grades of prostate cancer. The results are better for men whose cancer is discovered at an early stage. A recent review of death rates in men with localized prostate cancer found that they had nearly the same 5- and 10-year survival as men without prostate cancer. More than 90% of all prostate cancers are

found in the local and regional stages (local means it is still confined to the prostate; regional means it has spread from the prostate to nearby areas, but not to distant sites such as bone). The 5-year relative survival rate for all of these men is nearly 100%. Of the men whose prostate cancers have already spread to distant parts of the body at the time of diagnosis, about 34% will survive at least 5 years. "My note: I would guess that 64%

wont?"Five-year and 10-year survival rates refer to the percentage of men who live at least 5 or 10 years after their prostate cancer is first diagnosed. Relative (also known as disease-specific) survival rates exclude patients dying of other diseases.This means that anyone who died of another cause, such as heart disease, is not counted. Because prostate cancer usually occurs in older men who often have other health problems, relative survival rates are generally used to produce a standard way of discussing prognosis (outlook for survival). Kathy Meade wrote: You are absolutely correct. Often the 5 year figure is an arbitrary figure that researchers have set up to evaluate treatments for cancer. Has more validity to cancers other than breast or prostate. Problems happen when those numbers are misinterpreted. The good thing is that for prostate cancer many researchers are looking at a period greater than 5 years. Kathy -----Original Message-----From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of

Clarence Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:24 AMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: RE: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old. Hello Terry I feel that if we did more reading, the fewer mistakes we would make, we are not perfect. Prostate Brachytherapy made complicated is a texts book doctors nurse and all that has anything to do with treating patience with seed implant. Through out the book they will touch on the 5-year you speak of. I will not say all doctors. But the one I have spoke to has explain to me that 5 years is a average period they use to evaluate a patience. Because in this time frame, will let them know if the patience is truly improving, at a standstill, or if is getting worse. I myself has reach my third year and all is well, but they will continual through the next 2 years

keeping a close watch incase my cancer re-activate. One of the things they do is do lab testing each month sometime as often as 3 times a month just to ensure thing are still stable. If you would like the ISBN: number so you may order the book, let me know.Terry Herbert wrote: Sam I won’t pardon you for your rudeness. There is no excuse for that and it is in breach of

the most basic rule of this List. You frequently post misleading information and I think you are wrong to do so. You said in one post recently that <snip> According to the NIH and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting better though not great enough to shout about. <snip> I asked you where you had got this information from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of men who would die from

the disease – a pretty serious error. You subsequently said, in response to another post from another member, correcting another of your errors: <snip> I need to apologize to the group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the time <to me> but i guess what i mean doesn't

come out exactly as planned. No excuses, I am wrong most of the time anymore. apology's to all ! <snip> So my question to you is “Why do you keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?”

As to the point you make in this post and another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how can we second guess any professional diag? <snip> I would say that this is one time when you are not wrong, but that leads to my second question – who is it that advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy? I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate information for people to gain a greater understanding of this disease that we all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to. Here’s something to ponder on – it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature: It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything I freely acknowledge that although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last question is – have you? All the best Terry Herbert in Melbourne Australia Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason 3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23% My site is at www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za It is a tragedy of the world that no one

knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything. Joyce Carey From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of sam mcdanielSent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old. I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average. When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late. To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon

me.) Terry Herbert wrote: One thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating

life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time. __________________________________________________

June 11, 2006

Hello Terry To me that sound more like someone opinion, read it very carefully it say’s Among men diagnosed with prostate cancer, nearly 100% survive at least 5 years, 93% survive at least 10 years, and 77% survive at least 15 years. These figures include all stages and grades of prostate cancer. The results are better for men whose cancer is discovered at an early stage. A recent review of death rates in men with localized prostate cancer found that they had nearly the same 5- and 10-year survival as men without prostate cancer. There is on percentage given. And I agree with Kathy.sam mcdaniel wrote: Please tell me how i misinturped this! Its current data for survival rates and very plain to read. Its not my data I dont keep data. If this is wrong, show me where, and then we can take up the question with th ACS and NIH and see if they will change it. http://training.seer.cancer.gov/ss_module02_prostate/unit01_sec05_sur... Prognosis is strongly affected by the grade of tumor. Involvement of seminal vesicles is an important prognostic indicator. Grade Vs. 5-Year Survival (from Textbook of Clinical Oncology,

third edition) G1 60% G2 35% G3 15% G4 5% Stage Vs. 5-Year Disease-free Survival with Treatment (from the National Cancer Institute's Physician Data Query system, July, 2002) American Urologic Association (AUA) Staging System A1 occult cancer--usually not treated A2 > 90% B1 85% (50% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) B2 85% (37% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) C 48% D 21% (all metastatic cases) http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1X_What_are_the_key... Among men diagnosed with prostate cancer, nearly 100% survive at least 5 years, 93% survive at least 10 years, and 77% survive at least 15 years. These figures include all stages and grades of prostate cancer. The

results are better for men whose cancer is discovered at an early stage. A recent review of death rates in men with localized prostate cancer found that they had nearly the same 5- and 10-year survival as men without prostate cancer. More than 90% of all prostate cancers are found in the local and regional stages (local means it is still confined to the prostate; regional means it has spread from the prostate to nearby areas, but not to distant sites such as bone). The 5-year relative survival rate for all of these men is nearly 100%. Of the men whose prostate cancers have already spread to distant parts of the body at the time of diagnosis, about 34% will survive at least 5

years. "My note: I would guess that 64% wont?"Five-year and 10-year survival rates refer to the percentage of men who live at least 5 or 10 years after their prostate cancer is first diagnosed. Relative (also known as disease-specific) survival rates exclude patients dying of other diseases.This means that anyone who died of another cause, such as heart disease, is not counted. Because prostate cancer usually occurs in older men who often

have other health problems, relative survival rates are generally used to produce a standard way of discussing prognosis (outlook for survival). Kathy Meade wrote: You are absolutely correct. Often the 5 year figure is an arbitrary figure that researchers have set up to evaluate treatments for cancer. Has more validity to cancers other than breast or prostate. Problems happen when those numbers are misinterpreted. The good thing is that for prostate cancer many researchers are looking at a period greater than 5 years. Kathy -----Original Message-----From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Clarence Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:24 AMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: RE: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old. Hello Terry I feel that if we did more reading, the fewer mistakes we would make, we are not perfect. Prostate Brachytherapy made complicated is a texts book doctors nurse and all that has anything to do with treating patience with seed implant. Through out the book they will touch on the 5-year you speak of. I will not say all doctors. But the one I have spoke to has explain to me that 5 years is a average

period they use to evaluate a patience. Because in this time frame, will let them know if the patience is truly improving, at a standstill, or if is getting worse. I myself has reach my third year and all is well, but they will continual through the next 2 years keeping a close watch incase my cancer re-activate. One of the things they do is do lab testing each month sometime as often as 3 times a month just to ensure thing are still stable. If you would like the ISBN: number so you may order the book, let me know.Terry Herbert wrote: Sam I won’t pardon you for your rudeness. There is no excuse for that and it is in breach of the most basic rule of this List. You frequently post misleading information and I think you are wrong to do so. You said in one post

recently that <snip> According to the NIH and ACS your life expectency is around 5 years. This is an average, some men that you hear about live longer with treatment and treatments are getting better though not great enough to shout about. <snip> I asked you where you had got this information from and when you responded I went to some length to show how you had possibly

misinterpreted the data which did not show a five year life expectancy. I also took the time to mail you Off List about another very incorrect post you sent where you had confused the number of men being diagnosed with the number of men who would die from the disease – a pretty serious error. You subsequently said, in response to another post from another member, correcting another of your errors: <snip> I need to apologize to the group and hope that they understand I'm not the person I was a year ago. My mind just isn't working right anymore. I say things that sound logical at the time <to me> but i guess what i mean doesn't come out exactly as planned. No excuses, I am wrong most of the time anymore. apology's to all ! <snip> So my question to you is “Why

do you keep posting advice if you recognize that you are wrong most of the time?” As to the point you make in this post and another, where you say: <snip> Since we are not phycisians, since we have never met or examined 99.99% of the people we talk to how can we second guess any professional diag? <snip> I would say that this is one time when you are not wrong, but that leads

to my second question – who is it that advises people to take specific action? Who is it that predicts gather life expectancy? I’ll give you a clue – it isn’t me. I have over the years tried to provide what I believe may be appropriate information for people to gain a greater understanding of this disease that we all share so that they can make a better decision in conjunction with their medical advisors. I have never given specific advice and do not intend to. Here’s something to ponder on – it’s the quote I use in my e-mail signature: It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything I freely acknowledge that although I have learned a good deal in the last ten years, I have only scratched the surface of the vast body of knowledge about prostate cancer. My last question is – have you? All the best Terry Herbert in Melbourne Australia Diagnosed ‘96: Age 54: Stage T2b: PSA 7.2: Gleason 3+3=6: No treatment. June '04: TURP. Mar '06 PSA 17.40 fPSA 23% My site is at

www.prostatecancerwatchfulwaiting.co.za It is a tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn’t know, and the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything. Joyce Carey From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of sam mcdanielSent: 09 June 2006 05:30 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport Subject: To wait or not to wait at under 65 yrs old. I guess people must be mad at the most of the medical community then. The ACS, NIH, Onocology

Journal, Urology Journal ect. all put the survival figures around 5 year average. When people give advice for watchfull waiting on young men with high psa scores, while their doctors are recommending a treatment, who are we to sit back and say hold on? Who are we to say come look at my web site and read about 15 or 50 men who have lived longer without doing anything. Forget about the 13,000 who didnt live long and are gone because it was too late. To those people I would like to say. Id really like to see things from their point of view, unfortunatlly I cant seem to get my head that far up my A$#. ( please pardon me.) Terry Herbert wrote: One thing that really annoys me is to read of anyone estimating life expectancy. Given the vagaries of the disease that we all share, NO ONE (pardon the raised voice) can say that you will live five or six years, or that the treatment will only be effective for that time.

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June 11, 2006

Clarence Like most all of the posters on this subject you stopped and failed to realize that the part you quoted was for localized cancer only. If you had read farther especially the bold type you would have found that metatisized prostate is a different story! I gave you the entire crux of the article unedited and you seem to snip out only what fits your adgenda. This is not my opinion or my data. It reads how it reads and speaks for itself. This all started if i remember right, as to wheather a 45 year old man with probally stage 4 pca should watch and wait before getting treatment. Or a statement saying you dont have to rush into anything. Stage 4 bone mets you had better be listening to your doctor and not jacking around. This person had the same opinion from not 1 not 2 not 3 but 4 doctors and was still considering a 5th opinion! After this I think its totally irresponsible to tell any one with this advance stage that he has allot of time

to make up his mind! Regards Sam Hello Terry To me that sound more like someone opinion, read it very carefully it say’s Among men diagnosed with prostate cancer, nearly 100% survive at least 5 years, 93% survive at least 10 years, and 77% survive at least 15 years. These figures include all stages and grades of prostate cancer. The results are better for men whose cancer is discovered at an early stage. A recent review of death rates in men with localized prostate cancer found that they had nearly the same 5- and 10-year survival as men without prostate cancer. There is on percentage given. And I agree with Kathy.sam mcdaniel wrote: Please tell me how i misinturped this! Its current data for survival rates and very plain to read. Its not my data I dont keep data. If this is wrong, show me where, and then we can take up the question with th ACS and NIH and see if they will change it. http://training.seer.cancer.gov/ss_module02_prostate/unit01_sec05_sur...

Prognosis is strongly affected by the grade of tumor. Involvement of seminal vesicles is an important prognostic indicator. Grade Vs. 5-Year Survival (from Textbook of Clinical Oncology, third edition) G1 60% G2 35% G3 15% G4 5% Stage Vs. 5-Year Disease-free Survival with Treatment (from the National Cancer Institute's Physician Data Query system, July, 2002) American Urologic Association (AUA) Staging System A1 occult cancer--usually not treated A2 > 90% B1 85% (50% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) B2 85% (37% 10-year disease-free survival with treatment) C 48% D 21% (all metastatic cases) http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_1X_What_are_the_key... Among men diagnosed with

prostate cancer, nearly 100% survive at least 5 years, 93% survive at least 10 years, and 77% survive at least 15 years. These figures include all stages and grades of prostate cancer. The results are better for men whose cancer is discovered at an early stage. A recent review of death rates in men with localized prostate cancer found that they had nearly the same 5- and 10-year survival as men without prostate cancer. More than 90% of all prostate cancers are found in the local and regional stages (local means it is still confined to the prostate; regional means it has spread from the prostate to nearby areas, but not to distant sites such as bone). The 5-year relative survival rate for all of these men is nearly 100%. Of the men whose prostate cancers have already spread to distant parts of the body at the time of diagnosis, about 34% will survive at least 5