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>The Chairman was singing of love *and* marriage - the latter being the very necessary >political institution for controling and channeling the unruly former. Without it you have, well, a >culture wherein movies glorifying adultery (Madison County, that gay cowboy thing, etc.) are >big blockbusters.

Well, I can't speak to movies that glorify adultery but I can speak a bit to love and marriage. My marriage lasted the stereotypical seven years. However, my *very* long shack-job is going into its 28th year this year. When marriage doesn't work maybe non-marriage is one answer.

Blissings,

Sam

When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.~ Wayne DyerIdeologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. ~ Eugene IonescuNo single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood. ~ Despair, Inc.

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>A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to others than anything. It's sort of >like the military: some people love it, some hate it, many can probably take it or leave it >alone, but in any event the purpose of the military is not to promote the individual happiness >and gratification of the soldiers.

Dear Dan,

I don't need any hints about marriage, institutional or otherwise, having been single, married, divorced and widowed, not to mention having been around the block a time or two. Come right out and say what you have in mind.

As for it's being "sort of like the military," well, I have to admit that there are strong bonds that are formed in the military but to compare it to marriage is really stretching it. I agree that the military is not to promote an individual's happiness and for many people the military serves the purpose of providing the feeling of being a part of something greater than oneself which can also occur in marriage. However, as someone who also spent ten years in the navy (reserve, it's true, but military all the same) and worked for 25 years for the army as well as married and got divorced from a soldier in the army, and is now co-habiting with a veteran, I feel like I have some experience or at least exposure in both fields. So...

>the insitution is primarily about benefiting others - same, mutatis mutandis, with marriage.

IMO the military is a potential part of the path of the Hero's journey, mostly about the early part where the ego is being developed and fortified. You know, the knight errant and the Grail quest, etc. It's the outward expression of the journey inward. The hero's journey doesn't begin to benefit others until the Center/Self has been entered and the relationship of the ego to the Self is accepted by the ego (or it shatters in the effort to maintain its separate identity).

The relationship to commanders and the chain of command is quite different from the one-on-one relationship of a couple in a marriage, even when there are children involved in the group dynamics. Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man is the highest authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge that.

Ideally, again IMO, the relationship in a marriage isn't based on hierarchy but on partnership, just as the ego and Self must be a partnership in order to function in the physical world. The ego may be a subordinate partner but it's a partner all the same. This is where the military/marriage comparison can't stand up. There is no such thing as a partnership with the hierarchy in the military. There might be respect and even affection but no partnership. You do what you're told or you get out or get court martialed or whatever.

The Self can tell the ego what It wants done, so to speak, but if the ego hasn't chosen to accede, it ain't gonna happen. As Alice has so often said, spirit can't eat a boiled egg. Assuming, of course, that the spirit would like to eat a boiled egg. *G*

Same in a marriage: there's only two. Nobody will step up to the breach if the partnership doesn't pan out, as might be expected in the military where there's always somebody else to fill in. In a marriage ya gotta get along to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish; there's no bargaining nor compromising with the general in the army. Nor the captain nor even the lieutenant, for that matter. And don't even think about trying it with the first sergeant! LOL

As for the kids - which is what so many folks wanna bring up as a reason for marriage - well, for better or for worse, there are a lot of kids who aren't being taken care of by their "commanding officer" and those commanding officers aren't called on the carpet nearly as often as they would be in the military because they didn't get the job done.

I'm not saying this is a good situation but only that comparing "the good of others" in the military and in marriage just doesn't fit without some difficult shoehorning.

Blissings,

Sam

If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking. -- Denis WaitleyIt is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- AristotleThe goal of an argument should be progress, not victory. -- Author unknownAccept complete responsibility both for understanding and for being understood. -- He's a blockhead who wants a proof of what he can't perceive; And he's a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe. -- Blake

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Dan wrote:

>Regarding your headline, I wonder how anyone who was interested in

>psychology could hate politics.

Well Dan, that may be. But I am also aware (as a pragmatist) that some on our

list loath our drifting into politics; furthermore, dear Alice has advised me

that some have even left when politics has been taken into excess. Thus my

headline....as a warning to those sensitives among us. That is all.

>You can't have one, you can't have none, you can't have one without >the other

(Chairman of the Board)

Yes, but when the Chairman crooned these lyrics, the subject was love and

marriage, as I recall....an even more volatile subject :) That may be off limits

too for our discussions here....at least it is seldom discussed.

Best,

Greg

_______________________________________________

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Dear Greg,

The Chairman was singing of love *and* marriage - the latter being the very

necessary political institution for controling and channeling the unruly former.

Without it you have, well, a culture wherein movies glorifying adultery (Madison

County, that gay cowboy thing, etc.) are big blockbusters.

Best,

Dan

" I got a mom but I ain't got a dad.

My dad's got a wife but she ain't my mom.

Mom's looking for a man to be my dad.

But I want my mom and dad to be my real mom and dad.

Is that so bad?

Oh, I think I've been had.

Lost in America, lost in America, lost in America, lost. "

Alice

" I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see. "

Trad.

>

>

> Date: 2006/01/24 Tue PM 02:07:12 EST

> To: JUNG-FIRE

> Subject: you can't have none

>

>

Dan wrote:>Regarding your headline, I wonder how anyone who was interested in >psychology could hate politics. Well Dan, that may be. But I am also aware (as a pragmatist) that some on our list loath our drifting into politics; furthermore, dear Alice has advised me that some have even left when politics has been taken into excess. Thus my headline....as a warning to those sensitives among us. That is all.>You can't have one, you can't have none, you can't have one without >the other (Chairman of the Board)Yes, but when the Chairman crooned these lyrics, the subject was love and marriage, as I recall....an even more volatile subject :) That may be off limits too for our discussions here....at least it is seldom discussed.Best,Greg_______________________________________________Join Excite! - http://www.excite.comThe most personalized portal on the Web!

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Dear Greg,

Go to Junglife, I just discussed love and marriage. Why not you?

Toni

you can't have none

>

>

> Dan wrote:

>

>>Regarding your headline, I wonder how anyone who was interested in

>>psychology could hate politics.

>

> Well Dan, that may be. But I am also aware (as a pragmatist) that some on

> our list loath our drifting into politics; furthermore, dear Alice has

> advised me that some have even left when politics has been taken into

> excess. Thus my headline....as a warning to those sensitives among us.

> That is all.

>

>>You can't have one, you can't have none, you can't have one without >the

>>other (Chairman of the Board)

>

> Yes, but when the Chairman crooned these lyrics, the subject was love and

> marriage, as I recall....an even more volatile subject :) That may be off

> limits too for our discussions here....at least it is seldom discussed.

>

> Best,

> Greg

>

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Dear Sam,

A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to others than

anything. It's sort of like the military: some people love it, some hate it,

many can probably take it or leave it alone, but in any event the purpose of the

military is not to promote the individual happiness and gratification of the

soldiers. Is it better if they are happy? - sure. But the insitution is

primarily about benefiting others - same, mutatis mutandis, with marriage.

Best,

Dan

>

> From: sampatron@...

> Date: 2006/01/24 Tue PM 03:51:47 EST

> To: JUNG-FIRE

> Subject: Re: you can't have none

>

>

> In a message dated 1/24/2006 2:38:00 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> dwatkins9@... writes:

>

> >The Chairman was singing of love *and* marriage - the latter being the very

> necessary >political institution for controling and channeling the unruly

> former. Without it you have, well, a >culture wherein movies glorifying

> adultery (Madison County, that gay cowboy thing, etc.) are >big blockbusters.

>

>

>

> Well, I can't speak to movies that glorify adultery but I can speak a bit to

> love and marriage. My marriage lasted the stereotypical seven years.

> However, my *very* long shack-job is going into its 28th year this year.

When

> marriage doesn't work maybe non-marriage is one answer.

>

> Blissings,

> Sam

>

> When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.

> ~ Wayne Dyer

> Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. ~ Eugene

> Ionescu

> No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood. ~ Despair, Inc.

>

>

>

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> Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man is the highest >authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge that.

>

>N: From what he's written in the past, that last is precisely what he Does belief!

Yeah, I did it again, in spite of my best intentions. Most of the time I can avoid the bait but once in a while I get suckered anyway.

Oh, well, it's all good. *G*

Blissings,

Sam

If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking. -- Denis WaitleyIt is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- AristotleThe goal of an argument should be progress, not victory. -- Author unknownAccept complete responsibility both for understanding and for being understood. -- He's a blockhead who wants a proof of what he can't perceive; And he's a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe. -- Blake

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Re: you can't have none

>A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to others than anything. It's sort of >like the military: some people love it, some hate it, many can probably take it or leave it >alone, but in any event the purpose of the military is not to promote the individual happiness >and gratification of the soldiers.

Sam writes:

Dear Dan,

Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man is the highest authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge that.

N: From what he's written in the past, that last is precisely what he Does belief!

Rot's o' luck,

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>CGJ (1955), from _CG Jung Speaking_, pp. 244-247

Oh, that is just *soo* 50 years ago! LOL

Blissings,

Sam

If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking. -- Denis WaitleyIt is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- AristotleThe goal of an argument should be progress, not victory. -- Author unknownAccept complete responsibility both for understanding and for being understood. -- He's a blockhead who wants a proof of what he can't perceive; And he's a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe. -- Blake

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Dear Sam and ,

I comes from reading unsalutary authors, I'm afraid :-).

" A man's foremost interest should be his work. But a woman- man *is* her work

and her business. Yes, I know it sounds like a convenient philosophy of the

selfish male when I say that. But marriage means a home. And home is like a nest

- not enough room for both birds at once. One sits inside, the other perches on

the edge and looks about and attends to all outside business....

I have never said so much to anyone in an interview before. Probably I shall

find myself in trouble - especially with the women - for some of the things I

have said....

A woman is at her best only when she loves a man. Personal relationship is her

basic need, and when that falters she groes dissatisfied and argumentative in a

way that often leads to divorce.... "

Best,

Dan

CGJ (1955), from _CG Jung Speaking_, pp. 244-247

>

>

> Date: 2006/01/24 Tue PM 08:00:48 EST

> To: <JUNG-FIRE >

> Subject: Re: you can't have none

>

>

> Re: you can't have none

>

>

> In a message dated 1/24/2006 3:49:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,

dwatkins9@... writes:

> >A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to others

than anything. It's sort of >like the military: some people love it, some hate

it, many can probably take it or leave it >alone, but in any event the purpose

of the military is not to promote the individual happiness >and gratification of

the soldiers.

>

> Sam writes:

> Dear Dan,

>

> Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man is the

highest authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge that.

>

> N: From what he's written in the past, that last is precisely what he Does

belief!

>

> Rot's o' luck,

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Dear Dan,

If you pay me a 6 figure salary, I'll make you my business!

LOL

fa

Re: you can't have none

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 1/24/2006 3:49:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,

dwatkins9@... writes:

> > >A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to

others than anything. It's sort of >like the military: some people love it,

some hate it, many can probably take it or leave it >alone, but in any event

the purpose of the military is not to promote the individual happiness >and

gratification of the soldiers.

> >

> > Sam writes:

> > Dear Dan,

> >

> > Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man

is the highest authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge

that.

> >

> > N: From what he's written in the past, that last is precisely what he

Does belief!

> >

> > Rot's o' luck,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

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Dear fa,

Dollars or sterling? I suppose you will be wanting health insurance.

Best,

Dan

>

>

> Date: 2006/01/25 Wed PM 02:08:09 EST

> To: <JUNG-FIRE >

> Subject: Re: Re: you can't have none

>

>

Dear Dan,

If you pay me a 6 figure salary, I'll make you my business!

LOL

fa

Re: you can't have none

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 1/24/2006 3:49:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,

dwatkins9@... writes:

> > >A hint: the institution of marriage is really more about duty to

others than anything. It's sort of >like the military: some people love it,

some hate it, many can probably take it or leave it >alone, but in any event

the purpose of the military is not to promote the individual happiness >and

gratification of the soldiers.

> >

> > Sam writes:

> > Dear Dan,

> >

> > Unless, of course, you buy into the chain of command where the man

is the highest authority and everyone else in the family better acknowledge

that.

> >

> > N: From what he's written in the past, that last is precisely what he

Does belief!

> >

> > Rot's o' luck,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

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