quoted remarks and my thoughts.

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne,

Your friend whom you quote at length is entitled to his opinion as are you. But

does he intend for isreal to exist? Is this warm and cozy American ready to

deny Israel its right to exist? That would certainly solve part of the problem.

If it hadn't been created (by Jews who obviously left much differently in 1948)

there would still not be Palestine as a united state. There never was.

If your friend is really a Jew he must reread the history of those Jews not safe

in America.Great thoughts can usually only be thought in peace without fear as

he is blessed to do.Perhaps in putting himself in the shoes of a mother in

Isreal worrying about her children at the moment, would alter his thoughts. Sure

worry about the Muslim mother too and be broadminded. In fact righteousness is

his burden and that means justice.

Sure let's not worry about history,Or how the aspirations of 1948 affect

politcs, national and international today.Or iIsrael's invitation to any

palestinian to stay instead of go to a refugee camp outside.

But, darn it ,should American voters try to be consistent? I heard no loud and

convincing murmer in the US defending itself in past wars, even when civilians

were killed. There is no longer a demarkation between populations and armies in

civilian clothes called terrorists, or " the enemy " . We shoot civilians every day

in our desire to bring " democracy to other " poor beknighted " countries.

No, I don't agree with that either. But it is OK for us as citizens to allow our

leaders to kill foreign civilians every day in Palestine when our pilotless

planes zoom in on them? Some 200,000 Iraqi civilians are dead as a result of our

war.How do you act in Viet Nam when the enemy put bombs in babies's clothes?

Ok, we are too civilized to go along. Some of us, anyway. But are we still

responsible for the casulties? of course. I have a problem with hyprocracy. Our

silent minority allowed what we now yell and agitate for others not to do...the

beasts! How can they dare to defend themselves!!Just because they are stronger,

they may not???

So here we are. because the weaker struck the stronger first without any further

ado, we now have righteous indignation when the stronger hits back.

proportionality???? Excuse me...I must defend myself only a little?

Now the few among us who see reality as it is, not how we wish it to be, know

war solves nothing...except the further killing by the weaker with a death wish.

It solves nothing over the long run, but it sure is good no one is dropping a

bomb today.

Work for peace. I admire it. I think personality, human nature will not change

because a few thousand want it so. Self defense is in our genes...except again

for those very few real pacifists who would be willing to die for their

beliefs.(I admire them also.)

Now do i cry when I see suffering wherever it is? yes. Do I think there would be

a better way? yes, but I am a realist who sees suicide bombers and fanatics who

will never stop until someone puts a bullet into them. I hate to write that

sentence. I actually believe no one may kill another in a perfect world, but I

will fight, or I would if i were young and strong for my loved one. Honesty

hurts. If you and your friend whom you quote would be complete pacifists and not

defend yourself against violence, I bow to you....but if you only suggest it to

others, I will say stop preaching what you yourelf cannot do.

Threats against one party or another is a form of violence by the stronger here

again ( the US)

Let is be party to a true resolution...no nore missiles, no more bombs, no more

suicide bombers, in fact no violence by either party. Now there is something to

support. But don't tell me,all the Israelis must become pacifists, they whom so

many accused for going into concentration camps without fighting the stronger.

Lets quit posturizing,please.As long as Hamas puts weapns in among school

children and babies, let us not blame only the Israelis for defending themselves

even from these civilians.So Hamas didn't manage to kill a lot of israeli

civilians...bad aim, I guess...it is now up to Isreal to watch this bombing and

just stand there???

I beg everyone to think carefully what they themselves would do were they on

either side of this tragedy.

Here we Americans sit our moral outrage at high pitch because of TV coverage of

the worst atrocities i agree morality is outraged. But justice in any solution

must follow, not judgment and abuse for only one side. This is not a case for

the cheering of the underdog. This underdog is the one who started hurling

weapons at civilians.

I support anyone's right to self defense. I support justice in any peace

attempt, no scapegoating on either side. I even claim Jung on my side. He fought

when necessary, and he took sides in the world wars. He also believed in facing

reality...and as for the word " innocent " he had a lot to say on what it meant.

Justice might work if hypocrites didn't expect others to be more perfect than

they are themselves.

Know thyself first. Then if so inclined rouse others for a just peace

Why is reality so hard to face head on...

Toni

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/9/2009 2:00:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> aspold@... writes:

>

> Your friend whom you quote at length is entitled to his opinion as

are you.

> But does he intend for isreal to exist? Is this warm and cozy

American ready

> to deny Israel its right to exist? That would certainly solve part

of the

> problem. If it hadn't been created (by Jews who obviously left much

differently

> in 1948) there would still not be Palestine as a united state.

There never

> was.

>

>

>

> Dear Toni:

>

> My friend, Dan Cohen is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors who

has family

> in Israel and many Israeli and Palestinian friends. He is a

psychologist and

> has worked all his life on issues of peace and reconciliation with

many

> organizations.

> He knows the history of Israel and Palestine quite well. There

are not

> just thousands but hundreds of thousands of people working for peace

in the

> middle east including many Israeli's and American Jews. Check out

Rabbi

> Lerner's web-site or Jewish Voice for Peace. Many wonderful

people risk

> their lives and some like Corrie have lost their lives

attempting to bear

> witness to the truth of what happens in the name of self defense.

Self

> defense would be finding and closing up the trail where Hamas

smuggles in it's

> missiles, slaughtering almost 800 people in 14 days is something else

> altogether. I too know the traumatic history of both sides and

understand the fear of

> being annihilated and the dream of having a safe homeland but this

is not the

> way to safety. There will be no security in the middle east until

there is

> security for every one.

>

> Suzanne

>

In fact, many Israelis are criticizing the over-reaction of their

government.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/07/opinion/oe-keret7

Killing can never be proportional

Israelis and Palestinians are dying; neither math nor logic applies.

By Etgar Keret

January 07, 2009 in print edition A-13

....

Is there anything in the proportionality principle that can rationally

justify killing of any kind?

The motives of vengeance, which drive us to kill those who have killed

people we love, are completely irrational, even if we try to wrap them

in rational packaging. We exact vengeance because we hate and are

hurting, not because we excel in mathematics and logic. Early in the

aerial bombing of Gaza, five young girls from the same family were

killed, and many more children have died on both sides of the border

in recent years. The attempt to introduce their bodies into an

equation that would make their deaths justifiable or comprehensible

might be necessary to influence current events, but it is still enraging.

The only equation I can wholeheartedly accept is one whereby zero

bodies appear on either side of the equation. And until that time

comes, I'll choose outcry and protest that appeal solely to the heart.

I shall reserve my appeals to the mind for better times.

Etgar Keret is the author of, most recently, " The Girl on the Fridge

and Other Stories. " This essay was translated from Hebrew by

Berris.

[Guest guest]

Killing can never be proportional...

....The only equation I can wholeheartedly accept is one whereby zero

bodies appear on either side of the equation. And until that time

comes, I'll choose outcry and protest that appeal solely to the heart.

I shall reserve my appeals to the mind for better times.*Amen! --

As within, so without

~ Alice O. Howell

All joy in the world comes from wishing happiness for others;

all suffering from wanting pleasure for oneself.

~Shantideva (7th. c. CE)

If you can't see the humour in yourself, you coul

be missing the joke of the century.~Dame Edna