Re: A 3D problem!

[Guest guest]

> I've been considering the problem of re-entry (the bag of worms!) I

thought

> about doing a small computer model where you can play with

propagation and

> refractory times to see if I could simulate AF.

Jim, what exactly is reentry? Also, I have the dim and maybe wrong

idea that extra beats can be started outside the heart in the veins

and start afib.

[Guest guest]

>Jim, what exactly is reentry? Also, I have the dim and maybe wrong

>idea that extra beats can be started outside the heart in the veins

>and start afib.

Dale explained re-entry better than I can a few posts back - here it is....

>>Different parts of the pathway have different propagation times which are

>>generally measured as Time = Distance X Rate. The longer the paths become,

>>the longer the time it takes for the signals to travel those paths. When

>>the atrium stretches too far, the signals find blockages and diverge and if

>>they find a pathway back to cells that have finished recharging or

>> " repolarizing " , then those muscle cells can fire again and start the

>>process all over (instead of the normal routine where one pacemaker firing

>>signal runs out of polarized cells and just dies out). Hence, stretching of

>>the atrium causes the atrium to fibrillate rather than just have a single

>>beat.

You don't have to have a stretched atrium for this to occur but Dale reckons

(and I agree) that the stretching adds to the problem and makes re-entry more

likely. (I reckon you can also induce re-entry by playing with the propagation

and refractory times)

In a nut shell, instead of the signal travelling in one direction it finds a way

to loop back on itself and starts the firing process off again - hence AFib.

(The atria literally look like a bag of worms wriggling around)

You are right about the veins - the ablation has just had (I think!) are on

the pulmonary veins immediately where they join the heart. I was wondering if it

was a more general problem where something not directly connected to the heart

fires and the path finds it's way to the heart through all that 'sludge' that's

inside us.

cheers

--

D

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/18/01 8:48:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

james@... writes:

<< Maybe it's something firing outside the heart which has a path to the

heart that causes the first miss-fire? Once a bit of the heart is tricked

into

firing at the wrong time the heart itself is then capable of sustaining

re-entry/AF? >>

I have been speculating along those lines also because all of my recent afib

episodes except one (in the past year) have seemed as if they might be

triggered by the same mechanism that causes migraine headache: constriction

of the blood vessels due to stress with a consequent rebound over-dilation to

the blood vessels when I am relaxing AFTER the stress. For many years my

migraines always occurred ONLY on Saturday mornings at about 3-4:00 a.m. when

I was relaxing after a stressful week, never during the stressful week. In a

biofeedback seminar, which I took in hopes of beating my headaches, I learned

that the headaches during relaxation were caused by this rebound extreme

dilation of the blood vessels which occurs only in people who have a certain

hormone which most people don't have. The trick to avoiding the headache is

to prevent the constriction which rebounds to the over-dilation that causes

the pain. The biofeedback works toward this end on the headaches, but not on

afib. Now I rarely have headaches on the weekends, but all af my afib

episodes except one have started on the weekends. It seems as if afib has

been substituted for migraines, although the afib does not occur with the

frequency that I experienced with migraines. When I told my cardiologist

about this and asked if there could be a connection between the migraine

mechanism and afib, he seemed most interested and said that he thought there

probably is a physiological connection (as opposed to a psychological

connection that's " all in my head, " I guess), but he didn't know what it

could be. This may be useless information, but I thought I would share it in

case someone else out there may have experienced the same apparent

relationship between migraine syndrome and afib.

[Guest guest]

:

That fits in well with my hypothesis that hungry cells cause capillaries to

dilate which causes more blood to be returned to the heart resulting in

enlargement of the atrium and hence AFib.

I believe that hungry cells also release histamines that would make a

person more susceptible to allergens and I just heard an interesting report

on the local tv news. It seems that hospital emergency rooms are filled

with asthmatic patients immediately after a lightning storm because the

storm picks up lots of allergens then dumps them all back down once the

storm passes.

Another hypothesis that I have is that the combination of humidity and

especially rapid barometric changes during a storm causes molds and fungi

to go wild in the biblical sense, releasing their little gifts into the

wind. There's a a lovely thought. I suspect that the allergy/cellular

starvation/migraine/AFib syndrome are all different aspects of the same

mechanism. Of course, this will all be just an old wive's tale until some

genius at an ivy league school discovers it in a lab. Voila!

-Dale of Tucson

http://flashpages.prodigy.net/welearn/index.html

At 12:23 AM 5/19/2001 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/18/01 8:48:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>james@... writes:

>

><< Maybe it's something firing outside the heart which has a path to the

> heart that causes the first miss-fire? Once a bit of the heart is tricked

>into

> firing at the wrong time the heart itself is then capable of sustaining

> re-entry/AF? >>

>

>I have been speculating along those lines also because all of my recent afib

>episodes except one (in the past year) have seemed as if they might be

>triggered by the same mechanism that causes migraine headache: constriction

>of the blood vessels due to stress with a consequent rebound over-dilation

to

>the blood vessels when I am relaxing AFTER the stress. For many years my

>migraines always occurred ONLY on Saturday mornings at about 3-4:00 a.m.

when

>I was relaxing after a stressful week, never during the stressful week.

In a

>biofeedback seminar, which I took in hopes of beating my headaches, I

learned

>that the headaches during relaxation were caused by this rebound extreme

>dilation of the blood vessels which occurs only in people who have a certain

>hormone which most people don't have. The trick to avoiding the headache is

>to prevent the constriction which rebounds to the over-dilation that causes

>the pain. The biofeedback works toward this end on the headaches, but not

on

>afib. Now I rarely have headaches on the weekends, but all af my afib

>episodes except one have started on the weekends. It seems as if afib has

>been substituted for migraines, although the afib does not occur with the

>frequency that I experienced with migraines. When I told my cardiologist

>about this and asked if there could be a connection between the migraine

>mechanism and afib, he seemed most interested and said that he thought there

>probably is a physiological connection (as opposed to a psychological

>connection that's " all in my head, " I guess), but he didn't know what it

>could be. This may be useless information, but I thought I would share it

in

>case someone else out there may have experienced the same apparent

>relationship between migraine syndrome and afib.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/19/01 7:51:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

williamschnell@... writes:

<< It seems to me it must be a deficiency problem. This approach cured the

migraines, and given time and finding the right stuff should cure the afib.

>>

,

What do you mean by " deficiency problem? " (a deficiency in what?) Do you

mean that remedying the deficiency cured your migraines or that biofeedback

cured your migraines? Any information and elaboration you could give would

be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

YES!

I'm certain that there is a relationship between (cause of) migraines and afib.

I had migraines for years, rid of them now, and suspect afib has some of the

same cause. It seems to me it must be a deficiency problem. This approach cured

the migraines, and given time and finding the right stuff should cure the afib.

> I have been speculating along those lines also because all of my recent afib

> episodes except one (in the past year) have seemed as if they might be

> triggered by the same mechanism that causes migraine headache: constriction

> of the blood vessels due to stress with a consequent rebound over-dilation to

> the blood vessels when I am relaxing AFTER the stress.

snip

This may be useless information, but I thought I would share it in

> case someone else out there may have experienced the same apparent

> relationship between migraine syndrome and afib.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > I have been speculating along those lines also because all of my

recent afib

> > episodes except one (in the past year) have seemed as if they

might be

> > triggered by the same mechanism that causes migraine headache: >

, I dimly recall my former internist telling me that there was

some statistical evidence that people who were prone to migraines are

also prone to afib. This delayed reaction theory fits into what I

have seen both with my migraines (stressed out, relax, migraine) and

to some extent with heart irregularities - lately as I am in a

relatively quiet heart period, if I overdo or stress out, the heart

stuff tends to show up a few hours later.

For what it's worth, the incidence of my migraines has dropped

dramatically over the past year, as a calcium problem that I didn't

know I had got corrected... I wonder how calcium interacts with

migraines physiologically.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/19/01 10:04:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, trudyjh@...

writes:

<< For what it's worth, the incidence of my migraines has dropped

dramatically over the past year, as a calcium problem that I didn't

know I had got corrected... I wonder how calcium interacts with

migraines physiologically.

>>

Trudy,

Do you mean that you increased your intake of calcium or reduced it? This

interests me because as I have increased my calcium intake, my migraines have

become quite rare whereas I previously had a migraine every Saturday with

regularity. I attributed the decrease to biofeedback. Fortunately I don't

have afib every Saturday, but the incidence of afib increased when the

migraines ceased. I am in afib about 10 percent of the time now.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 5/19/01 7:51:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> williamschnell@h... writes:

>

> << It seems to me it must be a deficiency problem. This approach cured the

> migraines, and given time and finding the right stuff should cure the afib.

> >>

>

> ,

> What do you mean by " deficiency problem? " (a deficiency in what?) Do you

> mean that remedying the deficiency cured your migraines or that biofeedback

> cured your migraines? Any information and elaboration you could give would

> be appreciated.

>

I have been allergic to wheat all my life and did not know it.

I'm guessing this caused deficiency disease, or more likely was a result of

deficiency disease. Anyway the symptom was migraines. Wheat and all other cereal

grains also cause AF for me.

I'm hoping that avoiding all known allergens, and eating a nutritious diet

will end the AF.

Both of these are difficult, and have led me to try the primaldiet (another

yahoo! group).

I no longer get migraines, rarely take mineral pills, am trying to eliminate

all supplements.

The experience of the past years indicates that I am probably close to the right

track, if not on it. It is taking a long time, but then it took a lifetime to

cause the problem.

Never tried biofeedback. That the commonly available food in North America is

very poor in minerals is reported by several respectable sources including

U.S.D.A. Then there is fat deficiency caused by low fat propaganda, recently

shown to be baseless.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 5/19/01 10:04:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

trudyjh@a...

> writes:

>

> << For what it's worth, the incidence of my migraines has dropped

> dramatically over the past year, as a calcium problem that I

didn't

> know I had got corrected... I wonder how calcium interacts with

> migraines physiologically.

> >>

> Trudy,

> Do you mean that you increased your intake of calcium or reduced

it? This

> interests me because as I have increased my calcium intake, my

migraines have

> become quite rare whereas I previously had a migraine every

Saturday with

> regularity. I attributed the decrease to biofeedback. Fortunately

I don't

> have afib every Saturday, but the incidence of afib increased when

the

> migraines ceased. I am in afib about 10 percent of the time now.

>

, unbeknownst to me and unpicked up on by my internist, I was not

absorbing calcium properly because for some reason my body doesn't

use vitamin D efficiently. Apparently the latter is not that rare a

condition.

The endocrinologist spotted it immediately even though my Calcium

level was low normal in the blood tests, and fixed it with

prescription strength vitamin D. I actually had adult rickets -

painful ribs, etc. which the internist had been telling me were not a

real symptom but nerves.

I didn't realize the migraines were connected to this until they

almost vanished. I had been having as many as a couple a week and

now months go by without one.

There is some evidence in the literature, as they say, that low

calcium is connected to migraines.

(If one more doc tells me a medical condition is nerves, I too am

going to puke, preferably in his or her direction :-)